Armitas wrote: »

Why can't they just buff heavy armor without slapping us in the face at the same time?

basically I see 3 actions done by ZOS:
ZOS nerfed Blocking
and they decoupled Blocking from HA
and they gave HA a buff

NOW HA is freed from the Blocking benefits, we will see on the free market of Armor choices by the playerbase, how valuable HA currently is on her own merits !!!
And if the amount of people choosing HA on her own Armor merits is very low.....
(To be measured by amount of hours played by HA builds in endgame content !!!)
ZOS has no excuse anymore not to be more generous to buff up HA

The current separation of Blocking benefits for HA is a fact now.... we have to deal with it

And towards the value of HA on the free market... we have to wait and see... but my guess we need some significant further buffs

EDIT:
My only immediate concern is that the current HA with or without Sturdy will be ok to fulfill the Tank role in raids.
If that is not ok, we should make noise on our war drums immediately

Everyone who thinks only end-game stuff like vMoL needs a tank, do keep in mind that while the other earlier content (BC, FG, etc...) is crap easy and needs no tanks, this is ONLY for the highly seasoned players. Newer players still need a tank for these, and THAT is the issue.

Tanks are still needed for all the group content, just to varying degrees. This nerf hits less experienced tanks in PvE AND PvP the most.

Greydir wrote: »

Sorry guys, but this discussion is degrading from the Topic being about Bracing and Block costs towards the viability of different Tank builds and Play styles in PvP only.

I get it that there are viable and maybe even good Builds for PvP Tanks and HA Hybrid DPs but the core of it is: The Place where Tanks are really needed in This game are the Endgame Trials in PvE. Nearly all other content is sadly easily playable without a dedicated Tank, more so after the Nerfs to vWGT, vICP and vCoA.

This leaves the only PvE Tanking to be done the Trials, be it the Axes in the Archive, the Warrior in Hel-Ra, the Manticora or the Serpent in Sanctum or nearly every Pull in vMoL.
Since a good Number of those encounters can one-shot a Tank with mitigation via Armor if the Tank is not blocking all the time the Nerf is happening there.

The impact on players, that play Raidcontent is huge, and hugely expensive too. I do not think that Tanking will be outright impossible after the changes, but that the hurdles to get into Tanking in a PvE environment are getting even higher, so the playerbase playing Tanks wears thin. This makes this change a huge expense for the PvE players, which will in turn lead to the PvE content further being watered down to counteract the sudden and steep Learning curve. This perpetual cycle of nerfs to content following Nerfs to Important elements of group play will lead to people being fed up with a game holding no real Mechanic apart from stack and burn anymore.

This in turn leads to the ongoing PvP vs PvE discussion, which will in this case neither benefit the game nor its community.

Totally agree, if ZOS wants to keep tanking in the game, they need to ensure that tanks are not nerfed. Whenever I que up as for a random dungeon as a tank, I start within 30 seconds compared to dps which can take 2 hours or heals which usually takes a few minutes at least. For the top tier tanks, yes they will be able to adapt and continue, but the nerf makes it even harder for newer tanks to reach the real endgame content being vMoL and maybe the new vSO.

DDuke wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't know where ZOS gets the idea that people (who know how to play this game) want these idiotic hybrid builds. DPS in heavy armor? Why? Heavy armor is for tanking. Removing the most important tanking passive in heavy armor and replacing it with this hybrid nonsense? What in bloody blazes was @Wrobel thinking?!

And, no, Constitution is not suitable compensation for the simple fact that it does not scale. It's a flat resource return every X seconds, regardless of how many things are beating on you. Contrast that with block cost reduction, which reduces the cost of every block (vs. reducing the cost of one block every X seconds). If you're tanking a single enemy, sure, Constitution makes up for the difference. But if you are tanking those Trash Pulls From Hell in vMoL where there's a gazillion things beating on your, Constitution is a joke.

I urge you to take a look at several RPG archetypes, such as "Warrior" or "Paladin", which have always traditionally used heavy armor while dealing damage.

Shoehorning damage dealers into either becoming "rogues" or "mages" helps nobody & monotonizes the game.


I'm happy that after 2 years, ZOS is finally taking some steps to alleviate this problem.


Also, as I've stated numerous times in this thread: you do not need to tape down RMB to tank in this game. If you do, you're doing something wrong.


vMoL & possibly new SO might be a different story, but people will adapt & survive. Just like they did when "tanking died" after they removed stamina regen while blocking.

By putting brackets in " tanking died" are you implaying that tanking are not dying and there are many of them in game?You living under a rock? Why you think ZOS even made a thread to improve them?

Yes, and I actually think there's starting to be more & more different tank builds in the game.

Peronally, two of my four V16 characters are tanks, and neither of them is a permablocker or in any significant way hampered by this change to Bracing

The buffs tanks are getting in this patch greatly outweigh the cons, unless all you do is hold right mouse button.

It's good ZOS made that thread on how to improve tanking even further, just like they made feedback threads on almost everything else.

And have your tanks survived the AA axes or the vMoL pulls? Or are they PvP "tanks"?

I haven't tanked trials with them (only done all 4-man content), but I know AA axes are more than doable (as they don't one shot you), though the boss dies so fast it doesn't matter what you do tbh <.<.

I do agree that atleast Rakkhat in vMoL probably requires you to permablock (or well, you can probably squeeze in a light/heavy attack between boss attacks if you're good, though it's risky).

Mob pulls... well, considering those Shadowguard AoEs one shot my stamblade even when he blocks, I'd say you probably want to hold block there as well

Whatever the case, they'll still be doable (I will again refer you to the people claiming AA hardmode would become impossible after regen nerf) - in 12-man content you have templars & synergies to keep your stamina up.

None of the content will be impossible, but it will make it more difficult, which means that fewer people will even want to try learning to tank and there is already a lack of tanks. I'm sorry but saying you haven't tanked trials means that you don't really understand how the nerf will hit. As pointed out by quite a few people, experienced groups don't even need a real tank for most 4 man dungeons. Tanks should not have to rely on templars to be able to do their job in trials. Tanks are being nerfed which does not line up well with the fact that ZOS is nerfing dungeons because people can't complete them.
Why can't heavy armor benefit from the bracing passive of 20% plus sturdy trait if they want it, just like medium armor wearers still benefit from reduced dodge roll cost and can use well-fitted to further decrease the cost of dodge roll.
Heavy armor is already the least worn armor, so why not give it more buffs to increase viability instead of nerfing desired traits?

How does this work with the dropped sets for tanking? Is there a chance to get the blocking trait or did they go through all of the heavy armor sets for tanking to add it in.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

I don't tank in PVE so I can't really comment about that but in PVP the entire reason for using heavy armor was the block cost reduction, with the 7 pieces of gold sturdy armor you basically brake even on block cost reduction at 21% reduction but give up other useful traits like impen/divines/infused so really you are losing stats to gain back your block cost reduction. The buff to constitution is really good as it was kind of pointless before but there shouldn't be damage on heavy armor anyway, heavy armor is for tanking not damage dealing. Please stop making everything in this game about damage, if you want to be a damage dealer go put on light or medium armor.

Many tanks (both pve and pvp) utilize jewelry glyphs to supplement their damage potential anyway. Changing Bracing to Wrath, at least for these tanks, simply means switching jewelry glyphs for sustain, rather than damage, with some consideration for a few sturdy pieces, not 7/7.

As a pvp tank (with little to no issues with sustain in full heavy armor) I can say my biggest setback was a lack of damage.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

I don't tank in PVE so I can't really comment about that but in PVP the entire reason for using heavy armor was the block cost reduction, with the 7 pieces of gold sturdy armor you basically brake even on block cost reduction at 21% reduction but give up other useful traits like impen/divines/infused so really you are losing stats to gain back your block cost reduction. The buff to constitution is really good as it was kind of pointless before but there shouldn't be damage on heavy armor anyway, heavy armor is for tanking not damage dealing. Please stop making everything in this game about damage, if you want to be a damage dealer go put on light or medium armor.

Scrub ghost, if you want to tank you just equip the correct shield. Heavy armor is for ERP, medium armor is for 1vXing, and light armor is for getting Xv1'd.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

if you want to be a damage dealer go put on light or medium armor.

I quite frankly don't understand the assumption that people in HA should hit like soaked tagliatelle.
There can be balance without it.
People in HA should be able to hit hard too, but at a much slower rhythm, and in a predictable way - as HA is cumbersome.
Wrath somehow catches something very right in my humble opinion.

However, relative to the bonuses of LA and MA, the loss of Bracing does seem like a catastrophe. But I honestly don't see either why this perk was in HA in the first place, if not clumsily to offset the clear inferiority of HA...
In the end: true tanks are survivors. They'll rise from the Bracing nerf.

Since I haven't been able to scrap up a dungeon group for real testing, I did some mini tests to day, tanking a couple of giants and mammoths in Wrothger solo.

When tanking a single attacker, the resource sustain is better. Since I am already regen-oriented tank, I rarely had resource issues except in the most difficult content or when DPS was low. I currently have no CP or enchants or armor bonuses in block cost reduction.

With a single (slow) attacker, my sustain was crazy high; my bars hardly moved.

However with multiple hard hitters on you, the loss of Bracing is significant. I had stamina issues. Block cancelling heavy attacks was mandatory. These 4 NPCs hit pretty hard in their individual blows, but in no way begin to compare to trial mobs in the frequency and power of blows. You just can't always weave in heavy attacks.

I could probably adapt (I might try pulling the Footman set back out; switch back to Engine Guardian) to the blocking nerfs, but my utility to the group in terms of shields and heals would go down, and my ability to swap out gear and turn into a mediocre DPS for solo content would suffer. This all sounds about as appealing as a root canal.

Speccing into being a permablock tank dependent on templars for shards is probably a lot easier, and I suspect most new tanks will end up doing that. Again.

DDuke wrote: »

But if you look at it from a different angle, isn't this also encouraging people that try out tanking to actually figure out viable, good builds that don't rely on taping down the RMB & sitting there like a sponge?

Isn't it encouraging players new to tanking to learn how to manage their resources?
If I was new to this game and I was told that all I have to do is hold right mouse button & taunt, I probably wouldn't be that excited about the whole prospect of tanking.

For one this might be correct in the endcontent with a Ton of CP, since they help with Resource management a lot. If you are a new Tank, you will have to learn your Resource Management. If you tank in Trials you have to be able to manage your Ressources in Permablock even now. Lets Take for example the Axes in AA:
I can hold them for a Little over Two minutes before it gets really critical. This is ample time for my DDs to kill the Mage. The Problem is: If you once release the block the Axes will stun you in hit, and you will not be able to get back up without potentialy losing aggro and your healer. Also for me even when i Permablock, Tanking is much more than being a damage Sponge. As good PvE Tank I need to structure a Fight, position my enemies for swift removal from the playing field, direct the cleaves of the Bosses away from my teammates, read and announce the next action of a boss and all that while managing my dwindeling Resource Pool. This gets even harder, if someone in the group is bad at positioning or if the group has lower damage. This is a mentaly taxing position to mentain while having final mental capacitys. The more I need to source out of these capacitys to maintain my survival the easier it gets to make possibly fatal mistakes on the other areas. Do not misunderstand : i like being challenged in such a way but the harder it gets for the Tank, the harder it is for the rest of the group as well. This will then raise the difficulty which means even less people will be able to sucsessfully clear a trial, which leads to more people giving up on said content, which in turn will rob the games of great experiences to be had.

Swords and shields has an even better passive than bracing, it is called fortress and it adds 30% block cost reduction

arth-grogalith wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

if you want to be a damage dealer go put on light or medium armor.

I quite frankly don't understand the assumption that people in HA should hit like soaked tagliatelle.
There can be balance without it.
People in HA should be able to hit hard too, but at a much slower rhythm, and in a predictable way - as HA is cumbersome.
Wrath somehow catches something very right in my humble opinion.

However, relative to the bonuses of LA and MA, the loss of Bracing does seem like a catastrophe. But I honestly don't see either why this perk was in HA in the first place, if not clumsily to offset the clear inferiority of HA...
In the end: true tanks are survivors. They'll rise from the Bracing nerf.

@ZOS_Finn

Bracing was very clearly added with a big picture of tanking in mind. Bracing just happens to give, when added with fortress, 50% block cost reduction. The two passives stacked without diminished returns (unlike the sturdy trait I am told). Tanks were just meant to have, at least, 50% block cost reduction. You didn't have to remake the wheel here. I'll go as far to say that I would be more happy if you undid all buffs for heavy armor, removed the sturdy trait, and leave bracing alone. Go ahead and even keep the new increased block cost (whatever it may be). That is how much I value Bracing.

ZOS is nerfing dungeons because people already can't complete them. Then they nerf tanks ability to hold aggro on multiple enemies by removing bracing thus increasing the cost of blocking. Now those that play the game most and probably spend the most money on the game do not have content that really challenges anymore except for veteran trials (for that matter why are they veteran trials anymore since there are no more veterans) and maybe veteran maelstrom arena. If ZOS wants to keep people interested in the game, there should be new and challenging content, and they should not nerf classes or roles to make the content more challenging. ZOS is nerfing PvE tanking and almost getting rid of the need for tanks, and if they want to keep making challenging content and keep growing a player base while maintaining the traditional roles of tank, dd, and healer, they should not nerf tanking. Otherwise content will continue to become easier and easier, which is no fun for the majority of those who most actively play the game. The change of bracing to wrath in no way helps pve tanking, and will not help to create people to actually know how to tank difficult content.

Tabre wrote: »

I honestly haven't tanked much at all recently but at first glance, this looks like another nerf against tanks. Why do tanks need to be nerfed again?

Wrobel calls it "buffs".