The Bone Shield change is overkill.

susmitds · April 2016

willymchilybily wrote: »

although i think it is unnecessary im not against it. i barely have space on my bars as is. I certainly cant add a 6 second shield and gain much. without losing somethign crucial. I see it going 2 ways

regen builds: will still use shuffle/elude +drinks realising that shields like those they complained about on sorcs aren't actually all that now they have them and aren't stacking high enough max stats to get a decent shield from it.

High Stat builds: will probably use food and pop bone shield before hitting vigor or during. cant use it as a constant damage shield as don't have the same level of sustain

High crit builds will actually use both now.

Praeficere · April 2016

Sorry but use the skill before you post something like this.

In Cyro the shield has half value (15%) for the caster, it's only 30% when the synergy is activated by an ally of which it is then 30% of each allies' health and not stamina.

That 15% shield is really overpowered, yeah? It's only just comparable to igneous and blazing.

A lot of Stamina PvP builds have 30-35k Stamina, closer to the former however unless you're 1-Shotting.

This will help stamina survivability in PvE mainly, especially in vMA.

manny254 · April 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

ostrapz wrote: »

If 40kstam is 10k shield and 20k stam is 5k shield that means 30kstam( a little more normal than 40k) is o ly 7.5k shield which is 1or 2 hits , i dont see it getting that much use outside of group play tbh

42k+ stam is standard for a well built Redguard or Imperial character, and absorbing one or two hits is efficient for a single shield cast. It will become an instant must-use if this change goes through.

I would laugh at a Imperial with that much stamina. A imperial can not have competitive sustain with those stats. Especially if the opponent is a redguard.

KenaPKK · April 2016

manny254 wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

ostrapz wrote: »

If 40kstam is 10k shield and 20k stam is 5k shield that means 30kstam( a little more normal than 40k) is o ly 7.5k shield which is 1or 2 hits , i dont see it getting that much use outside of group play tbh

42k+ stam is standard for a well built Redguard or Imperial character, and absorbing one or two hits is efficient for a single shield cast. It will become an instant must-use if this change goes through.

I would laugh at a Imperial with that much stamina. A imperial can not have competitive sustain with those stats. Especially if the opponent is a redguard.

Nitpicking. Don't derail the conversation over minor details.

Refuse2GrowUp · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sure you can run vigor, rally, shield, shuffle, but when will you put out dps? Even though you can maintain high damage with that setup, that won't matter cause you spend too much time buffing.

Not to say your view of diversity is wrong in anyway; just an observation in regards to the particular quoted comment...

Everyone hates shield stacking Sorcs. 'High burst damage and more surviveability than tanks' is often how shield stacking Sorcs are described. Yet they have Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka, and Healing Ward on their bar, while being forced to run Resto Staff, and yet they can still be extremely lethal. Don't see it being too different for Stam toons in PvP. There will be plenty of options, but some players will absolutely stack all the heals, shields, and damage mitigation they can and still be extremely effective at damage output. And when this happens, it will be just as broken as Sorc shield stacking in PvP.

Is that really balance?

It was the length of time the shields were uo that made it an issue. Being able to have 2 shields up for an extended time like that meant still being able to do damage. The reduced time goes a long way. It means you sacrifice dps to keep shields up. Same goes for stam. The 5 second duration and the short duration on rally keep stam in check. Choose to keep buffs up, or leave yourself vulnerable to attack. The trade off is there.

Yes, I think this is balanced while creating diversity in builds tanks can also be real tanks in PvP now.

Not necessarily. Any of those three shields would drop from a single large damage hit. The issue is that they were/are spammable and stackable and thus unless you can massively burst a Sorc down or CC them to prevent them from recasting, you cannot touch their health bar. Shields are not massive in PvP; duration ultimately means little other than effecting sustain as you will have to cast more often. It will have little effect on any toons ability to spam said shields.

OrphanHelgen · April 2016

is it the instant cast that gives this shield? How about the synergy shield to allies?

Refuse2GrowUp · April 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Because we stamina builds have much lesser sustain than sustain and with the increased cost of Dodge, Block and CC, this is very much for us to remain competitive.

Not really. If you cannot survive with shuffle, dodge roll, and vigor in PvP then you are not playing your toon to its fullest.

My guestimation is that this shield change was added more for content like vMSA as it is genuinely more difficult with stam toons and such a shield would help significantly. However, this shield has the potential to truly make stam OP in PvP. Not sure the best way to balance this one; guess it's a good time to again mention the game really needs separate PvP and PvE profiles where the devs can make changes to skills and mechanics for one without effecting the other.

Edit: And btw, stam doesn't have less sustain than magicka. Magicka NBs, and to a lesser extend stam NBs, have phenomenal sustain. However, play a mag Sorc, mag DK, or even a mag Templar and you will definitely feel the strain. I play both stamina and magicka of all classes and I do not struggle for resources more on my stam than on my mag. Stam drains quick if dodge rolling a lot. However, a single CC break on my mag toons means I am dead next CC. In PvE the sustain is the same. In PvP I must build for more sustain on both my mag and stam toons.

Yeah because shuffle saves you from for example: tether, proxy, vicious death, sap essence, impulse ?

Nope I see no complaints from you about annulment absorbing physical damage too : )

Take a look at my signature block. I play a stamina and magicka version of each class. My opinions are as unbiased as I can possibly be. Don't try to make this stamina vs magicka, and certainly don't try to portray me as taking one side or another.

Shuffle and dodge rolling saves me from most damage on my Stam NB and Stamplar (stam DK is currently a tank and stam Sorc I play completely differently). Yes, there are some things that are not dodge-able, but how is that relevant? Should you expect to be as invincible as a shield stacking Sorc? We all hate shield stacking Sorcs in PvP. It is not balanced to make stam toons invincible shield stackers as well...especially considering shield stacking is largely a Sorc only thing. Shuffle, Vigor, and Bone Shield will be available to every stam toon universally. It has the potential to be extremely broken in PvP, simple as that. PTS just came out so this is merely an observation, we will wait to see how it plays out, but this is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

As to your comment about complaints regarding Annulment... this thread is about boneshield. Why would I derail it with a counter argument about Annulment that only serves to incite the mag vs stam debate? Both skills are broken. Don't derail the thread.

Khenzy · April 2016

It's NOT overkill. All other magicka build/specs now have access to the reciently buffed damage shield called Annulment that now also protects against physical damage. Very convenient of you to omit that in your OP.

Rex-Umbra · April 2016

No pvper will be running magicka with this change. Every one will be the same stam build.

Praeficere · April 2016

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

is it the instant cast that gives this shield? How about the synergy shield to allies?

Instant cast is 15% of your stamina, synergy is 30% HP (battle spirit). With battle spirit this shield is barely stronger than Blazing and Igneous.

OP just farming forum points.

manny254 · April 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

ostrapz wrote: »

If 40kstam is 10k shield and 20k stam is 5k shield that means 30kstam( a little more normal than 40k) is o ly 7.5k shield which is 1or 2 hits , i dont see it getting that much use outside of group play tbh

42k+ stam is standard for a well built Redguard or Imperial character, and absorbing one or two hits is efficient for a single shield cast. It will become an instant must-use if this change goes through.

I would laugh at a Imperial with that much stamina. A imperial can not have competitive sustain with those stats. Especially if the opponent is a redguard.

Nitpicking. Don't derail the conversation over minor details.

You made a false assertion. That is not nit picking.

Before you start a riot of over bone shield look at it in game. It is 15% of your max stam. The only race that can use that skill reasonably is redguard. Other races simply can not run food on a stam build. So go do some testing instead of complaining.

Armitas · April 2016

This is going to be a nightmare. Cannons should be glassy. Damage should be perpendicular to defense.

Didaco · April 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Finally bone shield is useful. lets not kill it in the crib. Shields are a greater problem that won't be fixed by limiting them to 6 seconds.

Translation: "Eh, shields are already op, and the 6 second duration nerf isn't going to change that. Might as well just create another op shield."

Re-translation: If everyone is OP, no one is OP.

Mag sorcs can still shield stack efficiently, the only difference is they can't swag around not giving a shizzle about anything. Plus, Annulment can absorb fisical damage as well, so yeah, 15-16k shields at full health against stam-users.
You can resist 2 WB-DizzyThingy now with your lifebar untouched.
No more Resto-Must-Have.

You just have to cast your shields wisely now, seems a fair trade to me.

Lynx7386 · April 2016

Stamina needed a good damage shield. Deal with it.

Tarrin · April 2016

But it works only 6 sec!

Oh, the same as sorcshield.

Cry more.

Ragnaroek93 · April 2016

Are you serious? This patchnotes are out since a few hours and you already complain about them? I know that you don't want to hear this, but it is really unfair to complain about stamina buffs while playing a Manablade because it's the strongest class right now (I'm playing stamina NB as a main and also tried out Manablade, Manasorc, Stamdk and Manadk and Manablade is the strongest without any doubt). Your whole argument is that this skill will make Stamina Redguard DK OP because you lose to them in a 1vs1. First of all stamina DKs can't jump into a group of 10 people and nuke them instantly. Furthermore only REDGUARD stamina DKs are really strong in duels, every other race is much less powerfull as stamina DK. And lastly: Do you really think that I have better chances against a Redguard Stam Dk with my Stamblade than you with your Manablade? Do you think that any other class outplays a Redguard Stamina Dk? Actually it's Manablade who CAN burst them down if they fail using wings in the right moment, while the other classes can't burst them down. And because a class with an overpowered race, (sorry to all Redguard players, but your race needs to get toned down a bit

) who has no escape tool and not the AoE to burst down whole zergs isn't allowed to be stronger in a 1vs1 than you are? Is this balance for you, if Redguard Stam Dk would be weaker than Manablade in a 1vs1?

And the funniest thing is that you seem to ignore the fact, that Harness Magicka will prevent you from physical DMG and that Wrecking Blow gets a nerf. Shields scale from max stats. My Stamblade has around 28k Stamina while my Manasorc has 45k Mana. Yeah... which shield will be stronger? Also my Manasorc mostly relies on shields so I can put all my CP into elemental expert and shattering blows (which I believe will be really good if everyone runs around with a shield) while I need the CP in blessed on my Stamina NB.

The only thing that will hurt your manabuilds is the nerf to deto (which is well deserved) and that it will be harder to burst take down Staminabuilds. But Staminabuilds will also have a harder time to burst Manabuilds down with that new Harness Magicka. I have to say that this patch overall looks really good and I'm really looking forward to play this DLC. Heavy armor gets buffed really nicely and I'm excited to try it out on my Manadk.

My only critic point to ZOS is: Please buff stamina sorcs, this class needs some love

Luigi_Vampa · April 2016

I feel like a magika sorc on my stam dk now!

Own · April 2016

+1

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sure you can run vigor, rally, shield, shuffle, but when will you put out dps? Even though you can maintain high damage with that setup, that won't matter cause you spend too much time buffing.

Not to say your view of diversity is wrong in anyway; just an observation in regards to the particular quoted comment...

Everyone hates shield stacking Sorcs. 'High burst damage and more surviveability than tanks' is often how shield stacking Sorcs are described. Yet they have Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka, and Healing Ward on their bar, while being forced to run Resto Staff, and yet they can still be extremely lethal. Don't see it being too different for Stam toons in PvP. There will be plenty of options, but some players will absolutely stack all the heals, shields, and damage mitigation they can and still be extremely effective at damage output. And when this happens, it will be just as broken as Sorc shield stacking in PvP.

Is that really balance?

It was the length of time the shields were uo that made it an issue. Being able to have 2 shields up for an extended time like that meant still being able to do damage. The reduced time goes a long way. It means you sacrifice dps to keep shields up. Same goes for stam. The 5 second duration and the short duration on rally keep stam in check. Choose to keep buffs up, or leave yourself vulnerable to attack. The trade off is there.

Yes, I think this is balanced while creating diversity in builds tanks can also be real tanks in PvP now.

Can I ask what kind of build diversity sorcs will have now? As most non-shield stacking builds took huge hits and will be forced into doing what everyone apparently hates while not solving shield stacking at all.

ManDraKE · April 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Nitpicking. Don't derail the conversation over minor details.

is not a minor detail. You keep streaching the facts to justify your opinions, 42k stamina is not normal, and even less for imperial. Redguards can barerly handle 40k withouth starting to having sustain issues or having to drop tons of weapon damage.

bowmanz607 · April 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

40k stamina stam dudes running around with a 10k-ish shield sounds terrible... They were already strong enough -- why give them Hardened Ward too? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Sorry but "them"?

Bone shield is a global skill and don't cost THAT much. Just like block, this is available to all.
I don't see any point with this post?

So you believe that 40k+ stamina snb redguard Dragonknights with Shuffle and dodge roll and a 7k.5k shield that they can renew as they roll around is balanced?

if they are constantly buffing shields, rally, shuffle and dodge rolling, then when do you expect them to fight you? yes it is balanced because they might be able to last awhile in a fight, but they are not putting out barely any damage while trying to maintain all the buffs and dodgeroll.

the duration of the ability keeps people in check. either you go defensive and pop your shileds or attack an be vulnerable yourself to attack.

Ghost-Shot · April 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Shieldbreaker anyone..lol

Wear shield breaker, light attack puncture bash, GG

Refuse2GrowUp · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

40k stamina stam dudes running around with a 10k-ish shield sounds terrible... They were already strong enough -- why give them Hardened Ward too? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Sorry but "them"?

Bone shield is a global skill and don't cost THAT much. Just like block, this is available to all.
I don't see any point with this post?

So you believe that 40k+ stamina snb redguard Dragonknights with Shuffle and dodge roll and a 7k.5k shield that they can renew as they roll around is balanced?

if they are constantly buffing shields, rally, shuffle and dodge rolling, then when do you expect them to fight you? yes it is balanced because they might be able to last awhile in a fight, but they are not putting out barely any damage while trying to maintain all the buffs and dodgeroll.

the duration of the ability keeps people in check. either you go defensive and pop your shileds or attack an be vulnerable yourself to attack.

Magicka Sorcs can spam Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka, and Healing Ward and still manage to put out impressive burst rotations. If a Sorc can do it then I imagine any well build stam toon can as well. Guess we will need to see how it plays out on the PTS.

bowmanz607 · April 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sure you can run vigor, rally, shield, shuffle, but when will you put out dps? Even though you can maintain high damage with that setup, that won't matter cause you spend too much time buffing.

Not to say your view of diversity is wrong in anyway; just an observation in regards to the particular quoted comment...

Everyone hates shield stacking Sorcs. 'High burst damage and more surviveability than tanks' is often how shield stacking Sorcs are described. Yet they have Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka, and Healing Ward on their bar, while being forced to run Resto Staff, and yet they can still be extremely lethal. Don't see it being too different for Stam toons in PvP. There will be plenty of options, but some players will absolutely stack all the heals, shields, and damage mitigation they can and still be extremely effective at damage output. And when this happens, it will be just as broken as Sorc shield stacking in PvP.

Is that really balance?

It was the length of time the shields were uo that made it an issue. Being able to have 2 shields up for an extended time like that meant still being able to do damage. The reduced time goes a long way. It means you sacrifice dps to keep shields up. Same goes for stam. The 5 second duration and the short duration on rally keep stam in check. Choose to keep buffs up, or leave yourself vulnerable to attack. The trade off is there.

Yes, I think this is balanced while creating diversity in builds tanks can also be real tanks in PvP now.

Can I ask what kind of build diversity sorcs will have now? As most non-shield stacking builds took huge hits and will be forced into doing what everyone apparently hates while not solving shield stacking at all.

it forces sorcs to choose to stack shields and therefore not keep as much offense because of the time or to go more offensive with less shields or to find a balance of sields and offense such as running the longer ward with annulment and then their burst combo. rather than all sorcs being able to stack shields and go full offensive without reprucutions will be at a low now. This will open up the theory crafting discussion to figure out different approaches to the changes. shield stacking is solved in the sense that you really have to choose between stacking and low damage output for the duration of the stacking, or less shields and more offensive leaving the player more vulnerable to attacks.

Refuse2GrowUp · April 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sure you can run vigor, rally, shield, shuffle, but when will you put out dps? Even though you can maintain high damage with that setup, that won't matter cause you spend too much time buffing.

Not to say your view of diversity is wrong in anyway; just an observation in regards to the particular quoted comment...

Everyone hates shield stacking Sorcs. 'High burst damage and more surviveability than tanks' is often how shield stacking Sorcs are described. Yet they have Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka, and Healing Ward on their bar, while being forced to run Resto Staff, and yet they can still be extremely lethal. Don't see it being too different for Stam toons in PvP. There will be plenty of options, but some players will absolutely stack all the heals, shields, and damage mitigation they can and still be extremely effective at damage output. And when this happens, it will be just as broken as Sorc shield stacking in PvP.

Is that really balance?

It was the length of time the shields were uo that made it an issue. Being able to have 2 shields up for an extended time like that meant still being able to do damage. The reduced time goes a long way. It means you sacrifice dps to keep shields up. Same goes for stam. The 5 second duration and the short duration on rally keep stam in check. Choose to keep buffs up, or leave yourself vulnerable to attack. The trade off is there.

Yes, I think this is balanced while creating diversity in builds tanks can also be real tanks in PvP now.

Can I ask what kind of build diversity sorcs will have now? As most non-shield stacking builds took huge hits and will be forced into doing what everyone apparently hates while not solving shield stacking at all.

it forces sorcs to choose to stack shields and therefore not keep as much offense because of the time or to go more offensive with less shields or to find a balance of sields and offense such as running the longer ward with annulment and then their burst combo. rather than all sorcs being able to stack shields and go full offensive without reprucutions will be at a low now. This will open up the theory crafting discussion to figure out different approaches to the changes. shield stacking is solved in the sense that you really have to choose between stacking and low damage output for the duration of the stacking, or less shields and more offensive leaving the player more vulnerable to attacks.

An aspect of this discussion I am really interested to see in action on the PTS is how this effects Zergs. Are we going to see a rise in the number of support toons that are stacking to be unkillable, thus making zergs that much harder to wipe? I.e, are you ranged archers, templar healers, tanks, etc all going to be stacking to be unkillable and thus keeping entire zergs up; is this in anyway going to further the frustrations with zerg balls?

FearlessOne_2014 · April 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

40k stamina stam dudes running around with a 10k-ish shield sounds terrible... They were already strong enough -- why give them Hardened Ward too? @ZOS_GinaBruno

I my honest opinion this was done by the devs to push forwards their nuke sorc campaign. By reducing sorcs shields and giving stam users a better longer duration shield, pretty much makes magicka sorcs compelled to reroll new FoTM stam DK. Make sure to face roll your keyboard for the win on current PTS stam DK I know I did, and is now leveling up one as I type this.

#RIPBUILDDIVERSITY

Oh well I will "Somehow carry on!"
Again atleast now I have many reasons to roll DK being it's the only class I don't have, tbh I was wanting for them to make magicka DK competitive in PvE/PvP again. Oh well held my breath for too long, so I'll get off this Wait Train at Stamina Dragonknight station.

bowmanz607 · April 2016

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

40k stamina stam dudes running around with a 10k-ish shield sounds terrible... They were already strong enough -- why give them Hardened Ward too? @ZOS_GinaBruno

I my honest opinion this was done by the devs to push forwards their nuke sorc campaign. By reducing sorcs shields and giving stam users a better longer duration shield, pretty much makes magicka sorcs compelled to reroll new FoTM stam DK. Make sure to face roll your keyboard for the win on current PTS stam DK I know I did, and is now leveling up one as I type this.

#RIPBUILDDIVERSITY

Oh well I will "Somehow carry on!"
Again atleast now I have many reasons to roll DK being it's the only class I don't have, tbh I was wanting for them to make magicka DK competitive in PvE/PvP again. Oh well held my breath for too long, so I'll get off this Wait Train at Stamina Dragonknight station.

ummm stam shield is same duration not longer. sorcs still have longest duration shield at 8 seconds.

what do you mena rip diversity? cause sorcs were so diverse right? i bet if you pool together all the mag sorcs currently in the game and they have the same skills on their bars.

Dalsinthus · April 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

40k stamina stam dudes running around with a 10k-ish shield sounds terrible... They were already strong enough -- why give them Hardened Ward too? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Sorry but "them"?

Bone shield is a global skill and don't cost THAT much. Just like block, this is available to all.
I don't see any point with this post?

So you believe that 40k+ stamina snb redguard Dragonknights with Shuffle and dodge roll and a 7k.5k shield that they can renew as they roll around is balanced?

If they are roll dodging, refreshing the shield every 5 seconds and maintaining shuffle, they are burning resources without doing much damage. That seems pretty balanced. In live my sorc can do something similar with shield stacking, streaking and the occasional dodge roll, while procing frags off of the shield spam and doing some dps. There's no reason stamina builds shouldn't have access to something similar.

I personally think this is a great change. Stamina has needed something like this, especially for end game PVE. It is amazing how much easier VMA is on a sorc compared to a stamblade.

I disagree with the nerf to hardened ward and other shields as well as the change to harness magic, but I think this change is for the better. Personally I would have standardized the duration of all of these shields to 10-12 seconds and made shields subject to critical hits. If that didn't solve the issue, I would have put in an anti-shield stacking mechanism, but I am not sure that would be needed.

Mumyo · April 2016

IM SO GONNA SHIELDBREAKER, YAYYYY! but wait, they still can heal and dodgeroll oO

KenaPKK · April 2016

Dalsinthus wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

40k stamina stam dudes running around with a 10k-ish shield sounds terrible... They were already strong enough -- why give them Hardened Ward too? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Sorry but "them"?

Bone shield is a global skill and don't cost THAT much. Just like block, this is available to all.
I don't see any point with this post?

So you believe that 40k+ stamina snb redguard Dragonknights with Shuffle and dodge roll and a 7k.5k shield that they can renew as they roll around is balanced?

If they are roll dodging, refreshing the shield every 5 seconds and maintaining shuffle, they are burning resources without doing much damage. That seems pretty balanced. In live my sorc can do something similar with shield stacking, streaking and the occasional dodge roll, while procing frags off of the shield spam and doing some dps. There's no reason stamina builds shouldn't have access to something similar.

I personally think this is a great change. Stamina has needed something like this, especially for end game PVE. It is amazing how much easier VMA is on a sorc compared to a stamblade.

I disagree with the nerf to hardened ward and other shields as well as the change to harness magic, but I think this change is for the better. Personally I would have standardized the duration of all of these shields to 10-12 seconds and made shields subject to critical hits. If that didn't solve the issue, I would have put in an anti-shield stacking mechanism, but I am not sure that would be needed.

Well sorc shields are op too, and the DB patch is missing the point on that...so...

And PvE shouldn't be taken into account ever for game balancing. This change will *** on PvP. Player skills need to be balanced around PvP since you can't control player behavior, and then PvE content needs to be balanced around player skills. Not the other way around.

Either that, or skills need separate PvE and PvP profiles.