jkemmery wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

jkemmery wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I hope that the devs and management are giving the OP some thought, as it is a well-constructed look at how things were and are. I'm hoping to see one of them jump in here and acknowledge it.

We certainly are. Craz was kind enough to send this to us directly - quite a few of us here have read it in full, and we appreciate all the thought and care that went into it. We've already had some discussions with her, and internally among the team, on how and what we can improve.

Had these things not been a topic of discussion until this post/open letter? I mean... pretty much all of these points have been a source of discussion on the forum somewhere at some point.

I think it is the fact that @crazmadsci expressed the concerns in an eloquent and well-thought out manner as opposed to just QQing on the forum that makes the effort (hopefully) a little more productive.

The thing is @jkemmery , there have been PLENTY of well thought out, evenly toned, reasonable posts regarding the types of issues OP discusses... and yea, there have been QQ threads. Welcome to the internet.

And if ZOS just flat out ignores a thread because the person is using impassionate phraseology, that should be disclosed to the community so we can be aware that a thread full of seething rage will not get any attention from them. Well, no attention aside from moderation, of course.

Of course, we all know that isn't the case because it seems to be that most of the time an issue isn't addressed until there is a torrent of threads, posts, tweets, facbook posts, air-writings, ancient scroll decipherings, Ouija Board summonings, and bathroom wall scribblings complaining about a topic. Sometimes not even then.

You're not wrong. I suppose I'm hopeful that more attention will be paid, possibly due to her status in the streaming community, although I'm not sure what that is, I didn't even know who she was until today.

I WANT to be optimistic.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

FENGRUSH has claimed the title of most toxic streamer for ESO - you can place the blame accordingly and to move on to more constructive subjects.

Its a nice read crazmadsci - a lot of stuff to poke at in there. I dont think ZOS dislikes their game, or isnt proud of it. I dont get that impression from interacting with them or seeing them talk about the game at all. I get the impression they do like their game and are proud of their work.

Its the reason they tune out negative feedback as 'toxic' though as well. They have taken a lot of negative things I have said about the game personally and actually dislike me for speaking out on their product. That is because they do love the game they are making.. so I dont doubt their commitment to the game. There is progress to be made in certain areas, I just firmly believe PVP isnt one that will get a genuine shot. They will do 'things', but I really dont believe they are commit to doing much there other than whatever they can to quell complaints. We have done things as a community and individuals to attempt finding more of a common ground. Weve even had threads where we forced the issue of 'AOE caps discussion'. The developers werent even willing to explain the issue - so there was no way to even 'discuss' something that is widely opposed by the PvP community.



Theres a lot of good stuff to talk about in this thread though. I think the general theme is that this game has a lot of negatives around it right now from community portions because the game took a step back in PvP from a lot of peoples view points and the overall quality of the patch wasnt too sound. It wasnt just a bad thing for PvP only - Ive done my rant videos and heard a lot from PVE crowds on different platforms having different issues in a lot of PVE content as well... its pretty surprising to me honestly. But I think it resonates the fact that they sacrificed quality of their product to sell quantity, and as someone whos on the PVP side that isnt getting quality or quantity, enough became enough.

I dont discourage people from speaking up, working with ZOS, and making a better game. If you think I hate this game youd be misunderstood. Ive played it for years as well and expect a lot from an Elder Scrolls title - and I also know what the game is capable of. These make me expect great things. And from my perspective, they have actually taken steps away from that game I used to enjoy.


I dont think this game will ever be the PvP game that people experienced back towards release. Its definitely on a new course - and it will need positive community folks as well. A lot of the posters in here are streamers of ESO, some past and others still present. I encourage people to check them out as well as I have. I commend you on working on keeping things positive in a time that its really easy to be negative @crazmadsci . I think you know from my perspective why it is so hard to be positive for the type of gameplay I streamed in ESO.

I have gone the route of attempting to expose issues I think ZOS needs to take a serious look at. But despite that, I find they will obviously need some positive drive in the community, and I hope you are able to find it with them. I didnt mind their advertising campaigns with higher profile streamers to reach new customers. I find their complete exclusion of their long-time ESO streamers from that entire promotional front to be offensive. That was ZOS basically telling all of the ESO streaming community they can simply pay their way around any level of negativity and advertise what they want the public to see.

ZOS needs to better engage their community - youre a good person for it, and some of the others already posting in this thread have made insane amounts of effort attempting to do so as well. Look at the amount of effort @HeroOfNone puts in trying to communicate ideas.. my god! But the thing is - communication only will do so much. They are not flexible enough or willing to make huge changes based on communication. What they can gain from communication is a better connection with their community, and avoid the toxic environment you speak of. That toxic environment is not a 1 sided creation. The toxic environment comes from months + years of neglect and broken promises/lies to the PvP community (lets be real guys, its mostly us). ZOS was as much a part of the toxic environment you see today as the people that have to experience it and realize it. They just didnt deliver, they let us down, and they refused to listen to ideas in front of them the entire time.

Hopefully they can engage you and make a better future in PVE. Until there is a drastic change from ZOS leadership, I firmly believe you will never see a change in PVP than what you have today. Leadership has to express a serious interest, a plan, and engage the most toxic players because getting it right is more important than getting your feelings hurt. But I wouldnt hold my breath on it. I dont say this to be negative - I say it as a message to players and to ZOS. If you really do want to 'fix PVP' one day, whether its 3months from now, or in a year from now.. youll have to prove it, and work hard. Because youve set yourselves back so far its nearly impossible to do it right now.

Again though, I honestly hope the best for you doing these things you mentioned, and some PVE stuff. Im thinking of streaming some ESO again down the line if possible but itd honestly probably be some form of RP for entertainment, because the PVP only streaming is just a soul-crushing experience.

crazmadsci wrote: »

jkemmery wrote: »

@crazmadsci

This is a very well written expression of your concerns and you make a lot of valid points. I do hope that ZOS takes many of your suggestions in to consideration.

I'm not sure, however, that you can expect the community to react in any one certain way or another, unfortunately. I honestly believe many people play EOS (and other games) as a way to blow off steam and to relieve pent-up aggression. These people tend to react in a negative way toward many things (I'm thinking of a few popular streamers and YouTubers, but per forum rules, I won't mention any names). I suppose that is just part of the human condition.

I do believe ZOS is trying had to make a great game, and I do believe they care about it. I do also however feel that either there is a lack of adequate resources to carry out this vision, or, there is a lack of leadership devoted to implementing a clear vision of the game.

I don't expect many people to read my letter, I don't expect everyone to agree with my letter. However I made a promise to my community and friends that I would post my letter. I am not intending to point figures at anyone.

People will play a game and many move one. There are some who are heavily devoted to this game and not just because it is an addicting game. I have friends with PTSD or military disabled who have nothing else to do and can't even go to the grocery store. By playing in Tamriel they are finally beginning to slowly become part of society again.

In many ways I believe that your @name people treat it as a invulnerable secret identity where people can say w.e they want to say. People will vent off aggression and many will create drama well because that is entertainment.

I do believe that ZOS does not have the resources it used to have and am frustrated with some costs in the crown store especially the assistants and the fact that any thing purchased in the crown store does not carry over to NA and EU.

However I do think that the leadership for this game is fine. I am a like minded individual of Rich Lambert who loves the numbers and love his vision for the game. Matt Firor many people say has poor leadership but honestly i feel like he has gotten that title strictly due to having to play bad cop and give people bad news.

I believe ZOS will surprise us with the updates this year and community connection with ZOS will reform and renew to what it was in the past.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

wharf wrote: »

I agree with the Toxic Lord FENGRUSH. It's a lot easier to be positive about this game coming from a PvE perspective when you've actually had updates and are noticed by ZosE. After being ignored and labeled as toxic the only course of action is to quit or be loud enough to be noticed which is what I think many PvP streamers have resorted to. Nothing will change if Zos isn't able to accept criticism without closing threads or refusing to acknowledge very popular threads that are about subjects they don't wish to address.

Keep drinking that Zose Kool Aid OP.

LMAO yes. ZOS is totally ignoring the PvP community. Its not like they regularly acknowledge the issues in Cyrodiil. Its not like they agreed to go forth with making Arena styled Small Scale PvP for the small minority that threw temper tantrums in order to get their way. Its not as if ZOS has agreed to institute dueling.

I mean. They are SOOOO ignoring that section of the community.

tinythinker wrote: »

Basically, the game has always "had potential". Some people eventually wake up and realize that, nope, this is it, just more of the same content, and if you don't like it as it already is, too bad. Maybe they are wrong in this realization, and a big transformation is right around the corner, but if they have such an epiphany and believe in it, it's a big let down.

ESO is a fun single player game when you first get it, and there are lots of achievements to chase. So people doing that stuff who like the UI, combat style, environmental assets, etc, will love the game. But after you've done the base game quests, dolmens, delves, etc once or twice (or five or eight times), and either don't like or have also done the limited amount of group content, your options narrow. Go to PvP and, if you aren't a great twitch-reflex player with high end gear, die a lot. Or surf the zergs. Either way it's a lagfest on the Herman Cain plan (999 ping). Maybe wait for new DLC, then fight through the new and old bugs to try to finish it, which usually doesn't take too long. Maybe visit the forums and read about the new bugs, old bugs, and balance issues, mostly from players, rarely from ZOS.

So it seems to me as someone who has spent a couple of years in the game and on the forums that a lot of the negativity from the community comes from:

-players who've been around a long time and who've become jaded toward ZOS promises.
-players who've been around a long time and are tired of the same bugs from X months or even years ago.
-players who've been around a long time and are fed up waiting for features discussed years ago but are still "in the works" or "no ETA".
-players who've been around a long time and are tired of no major content updates for PvP other than IC, which in some ways bombed.
-players who've been around a long time and who are sick of terrible performance issues in Cyrodiil like crippling lag.
-players who've been around a long time and who are frustrated with sporadic, vague communication from ZOS on the above issues and with how little improvement there has been on the above issues.
-newer players who have encountered these problems but have far less patience than the older players who've stuck around waiting for serious improvements or solutions.
-newer players who are used to a particular way of MMORPGs working and who are upset to see particular features they expect to be in a game either lacking or broken.
-older and newer players who worry that the B2P model means more bugs, less polish on assets, and fewer/slower significant changes than games with a sub-only model.
-trolls who know that the above issues are great way to #$%^ people off and stir the pot on the forums for their own amusement or to get people to "feel their pain" about one or more of the above issues.

I don't blame players one bit for being frustrated with, angry at, or disappointed in ZOS regarding one or more of the issues mentioned, but, I also have zero sympathy for people who throw childish tantrums in online spaces where the ESO community is present, or who harass people for not being as fed up as they are or for still enjoying the game.

Constructive criticism and feedback sounds like a good idea, but players need to temper their expectations. I've been known to make a suggestion or two for the improvement or expansion of ESO, even as recently as last night, based on what my own preferences, experiences, and reactions suggest would make the game more fun. In fact, it also occurred to me last night (but I didn't bother with a write-up) just how depressing a lot of the settings are, even for a world facing a Planemeld and living in a fractured Empire in the midst of a civil war. Even the celebrations in Auridon and Eastmarch are lacking, largely because there is no festive/light/merry music when you go to the few places having a good time. And somehow if there were I'm betting it would be the same song over and over throughout Tamriel. Which then got me to thinking they need more types of music and more variety of music, like that sad wistful tune they recently added to Dwemer ruins. Music that is wistful but not necessarily sad, wistful and sad, inspirational that soars, inspirational that rocks, myserious inviting, mysterious unsettling, etc, etc. After all music has a big impact on player experiences in video games. And there are so few trials, still no raids, no "part two" of many dungeons, which could each have unique pieces (if not whole songs, but each big boss in the game should have its own song), and... oh, sorry. That line of though got away from me there. But there are many cultures in the game, so they can afford to branch out from the musical style they started with and... sorry, still on that line of thought.

Anyway, I don't expect ZOS to be hanging on anything any particular person proposes, as the forums, Reddit, and a number of other platforms are filled with such suggestions. ZOS will make the game they want to make, so, if people don't like it as it is now (more or less) and have lost hope it will change in major way, or have gotten burned out on it waiting for whatever is they hoped to see, it is up to them to decide how long they want to stick around. A few stick around to, I guess, keep poking ZOS and to make sure new players know what they feel is the story of what has gone wrong and why ZOS is to blame for those things. And as long as they don't violate forum rules they are free to do so.

The things mentioned by the OP about better communication and interaction with the players have been said over and over and over, I've even done that song and dance a few times, so who knows how or if that will be something that really changes. In the meantime, ESO is what it is, however people feel about it. If it gets you down, there are plenty of other games to play.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

wharf wrote: »

I agree with the Toxic Lord FENGRUSH. It's a lot easier to be positive about this game coming from a PvE perspective when you've actually had updates and are noticed by ZosE. After being ignored and labeled as toxic the only course of action is to quit or be loud enough to be noticed which is what I think many PvP streamers have resorted to. Nothing will change if Zos isn't able to accept criticism without closing threads or refusing to acknowledge very popular threads that are about subjects they don't wish to address.

Keep drinking that Zose Kool Aid OP.

LMAO yes. ZOS is totally ignoring the PvP community. Its not like they regularly acknowledge the issues in Cyrodiil. Its not like they agreed to go forth with making Arena styled Small Scale PvP for the small minority that threw temper tantrums in order to get their way. Its not as if ZOS has agreed to institute dueling.

I mean. They are SOOOO ignoring that section of the community.

To be fair - acknowledging issues doesnt fix anything, and hasnt for over a year. Acknowledging them only seems to have made them worse.


And arena/BGs/dueling is all great - parts of PvP I enjoy. I also enjoy open world, and it seems hopelessly doomed in current format/future projections. These concepts are just being started as well, so they will likely come on the later part of next year at the soonest.

I dont expect anything different on arena/BG/Dueling from them, you can only expect a human timeline for that and I get that.

I expected more action on Cyro before now - and I expected more alternatives to be presented. I also expected IC to be finished by now. You guys didnt get Thieves Guild with the end of the quest line not finished, or Orsinium without the ability to finish Vet Maelstrom, a missing loot table, or inability to finish questing the town.

IC literally was supposed to have captured districts. They just didnt finish it, and pretended it didnt exist. This is the single most useful thing that is developed and could be 'finished' for the PvP community. But they wont make money on it unless they can sell IC part 2 (now with districts finished). People bait and attack on PvP <--> PvE fronts. Its stupid to do so - and short sighted IMO.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Basically, the game has always "had potential". Some people eventually wake up and realize that, nope, this is it, just more of the same content, and if you don't like it as it already is, too bad. Maybe they are wrong in this realization, and a big transformation is right around the corner, but if they have such an epiphany and believe in it, it's a big let down.

ESO is a fun single player game when you first get it, and there are lots of achievements to chase. So people doing that stuff who like the UI, combat style, environmental assets, etc, will love the game. But after you've done the base game quests, dolmens, delves, etc once or twice (or five or eight times), and either don't like or have also done the limited amount of group content, your options narrow. Go to PvP and, if you aren't a great twitch-reflex player with high end gear, die a lot. Or surf the zergs. Either way it's a lagfest on the Herman Cain plan (999 ping). Maybe wait for new DLC, then fight through the new and old bugs to try to finish it, which usually doesn't take too long. Maybe visit the forums and read about the new bugs, old bugs, and balance issues, mostly from players, rarely from ZOS.

So it seems to me as someone who has spent a couple of years in the game and on the forums that a lot of the negativity from the community comes from:

-players who've been around a long time and who've become jaded toward ZOS promises.
-players who've been around a long time and are tired of the same bugs from X months or even years ago.
-players who've been around a long time and are fed up waiting for features discussed years ago but are still "in the works" or "no ETA".
-players who've been around a long time and are tired of no major content updates for PvP other than IC, which in some ways bombed.
-players who've been around a long time and who are sick of terrible performance issues in Cyrodiil like crippling lag.
-players who've been around a long time and who are frustrated with sporadic, vague communication from ZOS on the above issues and with how little improvement there has been on the above issues.
-newer players who have encountered these problems but have far less patience than the older players who've stuck around waiting for serious improvements or solutions.
-newer players who are used to a particular way of MMORPGs working and who are upset to see particular features they expect to be in a game either lacking or broken.
-older and newer players who worry that the B2P model means more bugs, less polish on assets, and fewer/slower significant changes than games with a sub-only model.
-trolls who know that the above issues are great way to #$%^ people off and stir the pot on the forums for their own amusement or to get people to "feel their pain" about one or more of the above issues.

I don't blame players one bit for being frustrated with, angry at, or disappointed in ZOS regarding one or more of the issues mentioned, but, I also have zero sympathy for people who throw childish tantrums in online spaces where the ESO community is present, or who harass people for not being as fed up as they are or for still enjoying the game.

Constructive criticism and feedback sounds like a good idea, but players need to temper their expectations. I've been known to make a suggestion or two for the improvement or expansion of ESO, even as recently as last night, based on what my own preferences, experiences, and reactions suggest would make the game more fun. In fact, it also occurred to me last night (but I didn't bother with a write-up) just how depressing a lot of the settings are, even for a world facing a Planemeld and living in a fractured Empire in the midst of a civil war. Even the celebrations in Auridon and Eastmarch are lacking, largely because there is no festive/light/merry music when you go to the few places having a good time. And somehow if there were I'm betting it would be the same song over and over throughout Tamriel. Which then got me to thinking they need more types of music and more variety of music, like that sad wistful tune they recently added to Dwemer ruins. Music that is wistful but not necessarily sad, wistful and sad, inspirational that soars, inspirational that rocks, myserious inviting, mysterious unsettling, etc, etc. After all music has a big impact on player experiences in video games. And there are so few trials, still no raids, no "part two" of many dungeons, which could each have unique pieces (if not whole songs, but each big boss in the game should have its own song), and... oh, sorry. That line of though got away from me there. But there are many cultures in the game, so they can afford to branch out from the musical style they started with and... sorry, still on that line of thought.

Anyway, I don't expect ZOS to be hanging on anything any particular person proposes, as the forums, Reddit, and a number of other platforms are filled with such suggestions. ZOS will make the game they want to make, so, if people don't like it as it is now (more or less) and have lost hope it will change in major way, or have gotten burned out on it waiting for whatever is they hoped to see, it is up to them to decide how long they want to stick around. A few stick around to, I guess, keep poking ZOS and to make sure new players know what they feel is the story of what has gone wrong and why ZOS is to blame for those things. And as long as they don't violate forum rules they are free to do so.

The things mentioned by the OP about better communication and interaction with the players have been said over and over and over, I've even done that song and dance a few times, so who knows how or if that will be something that really changes. In the meantime, ESO is what it is, however people feel about it. If it gets you down, there are plenty of other games to play.

You've certainly added a lot of interesting suggestions in the past, and I definitely agree with you on the music. I wish they could just steal some music right out of the old TES games. I'd love to hear the old Morrowind tunes when I'm in Dunmer lands. It would be great to hear some kind of argonian tribal esthetic in those lands.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've commented on your stuff on this topic in the past, and if not my apologies, I certainly was thinking it was cool when I read them.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I hope that the devs and management are giving the OP some thought, as it is a well-constructed look at how things were and are. I'm hoping to see one of them jump in here and acknowledge it.

We certainly are. Craz was kind enough to send this to us directly - quite a few of us here have read it in full, and we appreciate all the thought and care that went into it. We've already had some discussions with her, and internally among the team, on how and what we can improve.