And this arrived in my e-mail today

byrom101b16_ESO · April 2016

I have to agree with IrishGamerGirl on this one, and for a number of reasons.

Firstly - the more rp'er leaning players, such as myself, like to identify with our characters enough to 'suspend disbelief'. This is very common in LARP and TTRPG - which I do lots of - and I like to extend it to MMOs due to the immersion factor. So the avatar becomes a little temporary extension of me. There are limits however to my interest in alternate identity, and a sex change isn't in scope for me.

The same is clearly true for the OP.

Second - immersion and 'realism' of the world is why I never played EQ1, and won't play cartoony games in the MMO sphere. Anything which jars me out of my 'trip to the other world' is unwelcome and unfun. There is hardly anything weird about it, but some of you here seem to think the OP's position is precisely that!? The point about rigid breastplates of the medieval variety is indeed correct - they are configured very similarly to the male equivalent. But the example picture the OP used was CLOTH.

So - let me say this to you nasel-gazing 'if I think it's ok what's the damn problem' types.

If for instance those of you who are male, and wanted to play a male character found that the new armours that you wanted from trails or dungeons etc. had breasts on them - your cries of outrage would dwarf this thread a hundred times over.

Double standards methinks...

So, once again - the OP is bang on right - forcing a female character to look like she has had her lower ribs pulled out 6 inches for no better reason than 'we can't be bothered modelling the new stuff on the already established female toon' is crap.

ZOS need to have the stuff remodelled and patch it.

Gidorick · April 2016

TheGrayChangeling wrote: »

Without supporting or opposing these ZOS armor design decisions I would offer a couple of articles on this topic that some might find interesting. The gist? IRL boob plates probably never existed - which is good because they would have more likely endangered than protected the wearer.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-kind-of-armor-did-medieval-women-really-wear-1502779338

http://www.tor.com/2013/05/06/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you/

PS apologies if this was already mentioned.

Or that... there weren't as many female warriors and those that DID wear armor likely wore male armor.

If women wore armor regularly we would have seen "boob armor"... how do we know this? Because this exists:

Now, this was done to intimidate their enemies... female warriors might have done the same.

of course, this practice went away with the middle ages (the era in which the TES series is based) and we got more particle armors. Even then, if women were warriors and they were the ones that were making the armor for themselves, they would have made armor to fit their figures.

We CANNOT use OUR history of female warriors to judge ESO's "accuracy" in female armor armor. Tamriel is full of veteran female warriors. Women are equal to men and are seen as being formidable allies in battle.

Would they have been armor bikinis... no, of course not. And they wouldn't have looked "pained on" like many of the ZOS armors do, but they would been more shaped to accommodated the female form. something like..

Autolycus · April 2016

That's why you cancelled your sub? My gender is important to me too, but I still played Tomb Raider and loved every bit of it. Sorry, this is just a bit melodramatic for my taste. I respect your decision, but why the long-winded drama post? It's clear this was more of an RP experience for you than anything else, but I feel the opinions stated her as they pertain to female armor are over-exaggerated for effect. I'd rather see my game performing effectively, you know, like not crashing 8 times in a raid, before I care to see more detail on female armor, or even changes that make it conform to the body better.

sickboy2808 · April 2016

Greenwood1900 wrote: »

They have been taking horrible decisions lately.

I cancelled my sub after Orsinium and don't miss it at all. Not buying any DLC either.

I cancelled mine when it went B2P though have bought all 3 DLCs but only liked Orsirium. Wont bother buying anymore from them as i am really bored of this game now.

Titansteele · April 2016

babylon wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

I think it goes too far to say it is mistreating women as a whole.

Really, so you don't think they'd stop to question why ZOS sees fit to remove only female meshes and not male meshes, or perhaps to instead use female meshes on male gear instead of choosing to use male meshes on female gear. Maybe you managed to surround yourself with the kinds of people who fit your world view ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Or maybe speaking for them instead of asking them directly, and only once they have read and absorbed the contents of this thread... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Regardless, that ZOS think it's okay to make only female armour distorted and hideous by choosing to not spend any time on it at all does indicate they don't value our money at all, whether it's females or males playing their female characters.

For the sake of a social experiment and general curiosity I will ask them but as I am very much a people person I highly doubt their answers will vary from the theme that I presented above. They would get annoyed by topics like "Equal pay for Equal jobs" but would not be annoyed by this, at most they would brush it off as a silly mistake.

Your comments feel like a bit of a shot at me, if I have read something into it that was not intended then I am happy to be corrected. My point is that it is a sweeping statement to say women are mistreated here where I highly doubt all women would agree.

babylon · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

...Tamriel is full of veteran female warriors. Women are equal to men and are seen as being formidable allies in battle.

Would they have been armor bikinis... no, of course not. And they wouldn't have looked "pained on" like many of the ZOS armors do, but they would been more shaped to accommodated the female form. something like..

This is a nice feminine style, why can't we see something like this (and it's not too complex to make, just a simple molded style).

waterfairy · April 2016

I commend you for what you're doing but it's ridiculous to avoid a game like the Witcher 3 because you have to play as a man.
Spoiler alert- you get to play as a badass woman at various parts

I'm a masculine man and I have no problem playing as a woman. In games where I can create a character for both sexes (like eso) I usually play at least 1 male and 1 female.

Lucious90 · April 2016

The sexual activism is strong in this post..... Its just a game with a design glitch and even then there has to be some kind of abstraction there after all they can't emulate IRL 100%.

Even then IF you want to emulate IRL go play in a tavern in a maids dress as women weren't regarded all that highly during a time period in a historical setting similar to ESO (minus Dragons and magic of course). I am not going to get into a historical debate, but if something as simple as armor skins turn you off from a game, there are adventure skin packs you can get to cover up the glitch.

[snip]
[edited for bait]

babylon · April 2016

Titansteele wrote: »

My point is that it is a sweeping statement to say women are mistreated here where I highly doubt all women would agree.

Nobody was trying to speak for all women, what we are saying is it's a decision that only affects female armour and not male armour, and this seems to be something they calculated as acceptable fallout damage. Whereas you can imagine the outcry from males if the male armour was shaped to the female form. We'd have three full pages of threads about it by now - we're being very orderly here. Would you think that would be okay if your armour now had defined curves?

Yet it's okay if the female armour is shaped to the male form? And subsequently deformed because of this?

It's hideous - people in games like to show off their achievements and gear, ZOS is making it so we now want to hide in the shadows and not be seen by anyone...it's downright embarrassing to be seen in this body deforming gear.

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Tiphis · April 2016

Completely agree, why they felt it was necessary to stop making female- centric armor is beyond me.

Faunter · April 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

After 671 days of continuous subscription

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Zenimax Online Systems

urkonse · April 2016

i dont really care is character forced to be either male or female.....

Katahdin · April 2016

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I'm also female and I guess I dont get too hung up on male vs female characters. I've played lots of games where the only choice was to play a male role (Half Life, Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc). I even have some male characters in ESO along with my female ones and I enjoy playing all of them. What does take me back is oversexualized characters, games where the only armor choice is skimpy, revealing armor...seriously how is skimpy heavy armor realistic..., and games where female roles are reduced to sniveling, screaming, mewling, fawning idiots instead of strong characters. I just find all of that extremely insulting as a female.

There was very little of that in the game to begin with. Im surprised however youre not offended with ZOS thinking the female gender doesnt even deserve to be represented in game anymore.

Am I offended? No. There are bigger things in life to be offended about than this. I do think they look pretty horrible though and shouldnt be that way.

Abeille · April 2016

Vigarr wrote: »

I commend you for what you're doing but it's ridiculous to avoid a game like the Witcher 3 because you have to play as a man.
Spoiler alert- you get to play as a badass woman at various parts

I'm a masculine man and I have no problem playing as a woman. In games where I can create a character for both sexes (like eso) I usually play at least 1 male and 1 female.

While I have no problem playing as a guy when I have no choice, I do prefer having a choice and I understand why some women avoid playing games that have no option to play as a woman. Consider that to only have the option of playing as the opposite gender is the exception for you, but for us it is the rule, since male main characters are still the "default".

When growing up, I hardly ever had the option to play as a female in a game. And while having to play as a male wouldn't stop me from playing the game, every time I had the option to play as female I would take it, and would have a much better first impression of that game.

I have 8 female characters. If I could buy more character slots, I would make two more. I would only play a male character in a mmo if I want to play a class that is gender-locked (I had a bard at some point in Ragnarok Online).

Villious · April 2016

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

Lazy excuse.

It's a paid for product. Sorry sir. We burned your steak, but we're not gonna make it right. It's only food, and you eat that everyday. I'd love to sell you stuff!

Krist · April 2016

I have to say, if this is the biggest issues you guys are facing in life, then this community is doing very well. Rock on!

LegendaryArcher · April 2016

I cancelled my subscription until they make Maelstrom weapons obtainable. As of today, they are only obtainable via leaderboard/weekly, which is only accessible to cheaters. They are not obtainable via Veteran Maelstrom Arena, even though there are few people that have had drops there. If the chance is 1% to get a random weapon with a random trait in a solo arena that takes 3 hours to complete, well... no! I am happy I'm not supporting this system with my money, and I regret every Cent I've put in there.

You should all try Black Desert. They really deserve your money! Beautiful environment and the RNG is capped everywhere (transparent token system: if you didn't get x in y tries, you get x). No frustration, just fun!

Lucious90 · April 2016

Villious wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

Lazy excuse.

It's a paid for product. Sorry sir. We burned your steak, but we're not gonna make it right. It's only food, and you eat that everyday. I'd love to sell you stuff!

Actually this is a good point, it is just a game. If you want to soap box women's rights in a video game because the armor doesnt look right in an already buggy game system, and you feel triggered because you feel shoehorned to playing a male when in fact you are playing a female. which i havent seen anything about them stopping female armor styles so that could mean just a bug that needs to be fixed (though no ETA per their usual statement to the public). I would actually hate to see you in real life and look for another medium to tout your activisim.

#argonianlivesmatter

Xandryah · April 2016

and what about this?! come on, colleen, relax and smile

p.s. i hope it worked :-/

babylon · April 2016

Lucious90 wrote: »

Villious wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

Lazy excuse.

It's a paid for product. Sorry sir. We burned your steak, but we're not gonna make it right. It's only food, and you eat that everyday. I'd love to sell you stuff!

Actually this is a good point, it is just a game. If you want to soap box women's rights in a video game because the armor doesnt look right in an already buggy game system, and you feel triggered...

So you're saying if ZOS decided from now on your character had bumps on his chest and also wore makeup (bright lipstick and everything), and everyone said "it's just a game it's ok", and ZOS said it will always be like this from now on...you'd agree with the decision and be okay with it and everyone telling you "it's just a game" - implying you should just accept it happily.

That sit well with you?

Lucious90 · April 2016

Xandryah wrote: »

and what about this?! come on, colleen, relax and smile

p.s. i hope it worked :-/

Triggered

Daraugh · April 2016

This isn't a bug, this a cost cutting measure taken by the company. It was a conscious, intended decision.This isn't an issue in women's rights, it just hits in the same feels as one does.

This is laziness, compounded by cost cutting which has been taken out on the female character models. This is a product I pay for, something I do to enjoy and if I don't enjoy it or if it becomes rampant with horrible aesthetic choices that destroy the character I made years after I made it, then no more money for Zos from me.

Faulgor · April 2016

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

Hey @IrishGirlGamer could you point me out in which way you feel female characters are forced to use a male shaped clothing and armor models ? I feel like I should be aware of something that I am not.

Read this thread here

This monstrosity is male armour wrapped over the female body, which is why it looks so horribly distorted. ZOS has decided they will no longer design armour for the female body and we will now have to "make do" with armour made for the male form instead of having our own meshes.

From the side, it's pretty much the same shape (the boob part) like the Trinimac robe which exists even much longer already. Not sure what they thought when they "designed" it... Also the shoulder "flap" from light glass armor is extremely distorted, but to the outside (convex). It's a fist onto the eye.

The Alliance styles have been in game since Imperial City. I reported the weird behavior of Covenant style female light chest armor back in July 2015 on the PTS. As well as the "bloated" look of Pact styles. Heck, there are promo pictures that show the Pact style fitting skin-tight, when that is impossible to achieve in game. I still don't know what's going on with all the recent armor deformities, but they are not a gender based issue, they affect male characters as well.

That said, that is NOT a male mesh. If it were the male mesh, it would look exactly like a male torso. But it's deformed precisely because it tries to accomodate for the female body type and the algorithm seems to suffer a stroke while doing so.

So I'm not really sure what the OP's issue is.
Is it the general buggyness and deformity of recent armor styles? The last unbugged onewas Outlaw, IIRC
Is it a lack of gendered armor in style? The last one was Glass, IIRC
Is it a lack of gendered armor in mesh? The last one was Outlaw, IIRC

Megalex1 · April 2016

Daraugh wrote: »

This isn't a bug, this a cost cutting measure taken by the company. It was a conscious, intended decision.This isn't an issue in women's rights, it just hits in the same feels as one does.

This is laziness, compounded by cost cutting which has been taken out on the female character models. This is a product I pay for, something I do to enjoy and if I don't enjoy it or if it becomes rampant with horrible aesthetic choices that destroy the character I made years after I made it, then no more money for Zos from me.

This.

They made the armor on a male model first cause the male model doesn't have an extra bump on the chest.

Then they applied it to a female model and kinda dragged the chest out.

It's cost cutting measure, nothing to do with gender.

Good troll tho, you got a lot of ppl claiming sexism

khele23eb17_ESO · April 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

That's why you cancelled your sub? My gender is important to me too, but I still played Tomb Raider and loved every bit of it. Sorry, this is just a bit melodramatic for my taste. I respect your decision, but why the long-winded drama post? It's clear this was more of an RP experience for you than anything else, but I feel the opinions stated her as they pertain to female armor are over-exaggerated for effect. I'd rather see my game performing effectively, you know, like not crashing 8 times in a raid, before I care to see more detail on female armor, or even changes that make it conform to the body better.

Its not about wanting them to improve female armors. Its about not wanting them to go through with their plan of not making any female armors in the future.

babylon · April 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

That said, that is NOT a male mesh. If it were the male mesh, it would look exactly like a male torso. But it's deformed precisely because it tries to accomodate for the female body type and the algorithm seems to suffer a stroke while doing so.

I think the consensus is it's a male mesh stretched over the female body.

Mesh being the pattern of armour. Body being the character model.

Stretches like that because there are no proper curve shapes in around the chest area on the mesh (armour pattern), if you can imagine it on a 2D surface (like a dress pattern, or in this case - a shirt pattern

). So instead of curving around the curves, it's forced to stretch over.

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Fuzzybrick · April 2016

Wow, seriously.

waterfairy · April 2016

@Abeille
I understand what you say (especially choice as I love character creation in games) but I can't understand avoiding a gem of a game because you can't play as your sex.
I have 5 men and 3 women in this game...actually 2.5 because 1 of them is a mule as I wanted a tiny little Breton girl to carry all my stuff

Titansteele · April 2016

babylon wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

My point is that it is a sweeping statement to say women are mistreated here where I highly doubt all women would agree.

Whereas you can imagine the outcry from males if the male armour was shaped to the female form.
_

It is the sweeping statements that I think is unfair, this statement for example is saying "males" would outcry. I am male and I would not care less but you are right, I am sure there are some that would shout about it and that is my point.
Your entitled to your opinion and I have already said that I respect you for that but when you phrase things in sweeping statements it blunts the point.

babylon · April 2016

Titansteele wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

My point is that it is a sweeping statement to say women are mistreated here where I highly doubt all women would agree.

Whereas you can imagine the outcry from males if the male armour was shaped to the female form.
_

...I am male and I would not care less but you are right, I am sure there are some that would shout about it...

Yet even you would have to agree.

The point I am making is ZOS knew it would be easier to target female armour with cost cutting than male armour and forcing the female model on the male armour.

Or do you really not think there would be intense resistance to male armour now having female curves and bumps in it, more so than what we're seeing here with the reverse.

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