And this arrived in my e-mail today

IrishGirlGamer

@ZOS_GinaBruno & @ZOS_JessicaFolsom:

After 671 days of continuous subscription, I received this in my e-mail today:

Greetings,

This message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your ESO Plus™ membership. You will no longer be charged for membership on a recurring basis, and your access to ESO Plus™ benefits will expire at the end of your current membership.

We're sorry you've chosen to end your membership. If you find yourself missing the great ESO Plus™ benefits, you can join again at any time! Whenever you're ready, visit your Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited account page and select a new membership plan.

Please print this email and keep it for your records.

Warm Regards,
The Elder Scrolls® Online Team

I'm certain there are people who've subbed longer. And you probably won't miss my money even a little bit. I suspect you'll close this thread or sink it ASAP.

But for a moment, I want you to understand why this is important to me. If Zenimax Online Systems makes the conscious decision to force female characters to use a male shaped clothing and armor models - and if I continue to pay my subscription - than I have acquiesced and agreed to your change. And I would never in good conscious do that.

I have played dozens of video games in my life. RPGs. Strategy games. First person shooters. Puzzle games. Games made by Bethesda, Gearbox, Sony, From Software, Paradox and a dozen other companies.

If ever I buy a video game, load it, and see I am forced to play a male only character, then I will generally shut it down and stop playing. Seriously. I played Witcher for like six minutes and never again.

I know this isn't the most critical problem facing women or the world today. I get that. But my gender is important to me. If you change the decision, I'll probably renew my subscription. If you don't, I absolutely promise you I won't - ever.

Thank you for the 671 days. I've really enjoyed the benefits of my sub. I'm hoping you'll change your decision so I can resub again.

Irish

[Edit: Credit to @Gidorick for helping me recall some of the male-only games I've played, like the Bioshock series.)

SirAndy

babylon

I agree, making female armour less important than male armour is insulting. I really dislike playing as a male in games, and making females look like pigeons in potato sacks by stretching out the gear over a male model instead of our own shape is frankly offensive.

*Let the OP return to the game she loves ZOS. Fix this crap.


_______________________________

Phinix1

I thought that pact armor balloon thing was a bug with the models they were going to fix. It doesn't even look right for a male character. Surely it isn't the new intended fashion trend?

If so perhaps we should start calling it Elder Robots Online? Like the old 1950's robots made out of cardboard boxes and tin foil?

Honestly, I can't imagine this "change" was intentional, or permanent.

Inarre

Agreed. Really discouraged by the choice here. Hate to make it about sexism because that seems like a cheap shot, but its also hard to feel like this isnt a bit prejudiced

Molag_Crow

I don't blame you, it's not fair. I once told a friend that I play ESO and they said something like "I tried that game once but I didn't like the female races, they look way too masculine" which made me think...

MasterSpatula

Inarre wrote: »

Agreed. Really discouraged by the choice here. Hate to make it about sexism because that seems like a cheap shot, but its also hard to feel like this isnt a bit prejudiced

Well, there's active sexism and there's casual sexism, but casual sexism is still sexism.

Ichnaea

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno & @ZOS_JessicaFolsom:

After 671 days of continuous subscription, I received this in my e-mail today:

Greetings,

This message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your ESO Plus™ membership. You will no longer be charged for membership on a recurring basis, and your access to ESO Plus™ benefits will expire at the end of your current membership.

We're sorry you've chosen to end your membership. If you find yourself missing the great ESO Plus™ benefits, you can join again at any time! Whenever you're ready, visit your Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited account page and select a new membership plan.

Please print this email and keep it for your records.

Warm Regards,
The Elder Scrolls® Online Team

I'm certain there are people who've subbed longer. And you probably won't miss my money even a little bit. I suspect you'll close this thread or sink it ASAP.

But for a moment, I want you to understand why this is important to me. If Zenimax Online Systems make's the conscious decision to force female characters to use a male shaped clothing and armor models - and if I continue to pay my subscription - than I have acquiesced and agreed to your change. And I would never in good conscious do that.

I have played dozens of video games in my life. RPGs. Strategy games. First person shooters. Puzzle games. Games made by Bethesda, Gearbox, Sony, From Software, Paradox and a dozen other companies.

If ever I buy a video game, load it, and see I am forced to play a male only character, then I shut it down and stop playing. Seriously. I played Witcher for like six minutes and never again.

I know this isn't the most critical problem facing women or the world today. I get that. But my gender is important to me. If you change the decision, I'll probably renew my subscription. If you don't, I absolutely promise you I won't - ever.

Thank you for the 671 days. I've really enjoyed the benefits of my sub. I'm hoping you'll change your decision so I can resub again.

Irish

Welcome to the dark side!

Ourorboros

You go, girl! I applaud you living up to your principles. I keep wondering myself why I stay subbed, since zos seems only concerned with making money while the game remains buggey. And it doesn't really make sense that the game has done what they have to costumes while there are many same sex couples in the quests. To be clear, the couples don't bother me, zos double standard does.

Phinix1

I see they also decided to take the cleavage window out of Redguard light armor and the bare thighs out of the High Elf Hero costume. The 2nd one could almost be written off as artistic license but I think I see what you're getting at.

Odd, since that new Bosmer number they were advertising is "riskier" than either of those...

Personally I find prudish censorship of sexual identity extremely petty and outmoded. Unless it is overtly pornographic like 1.0 Korean Tera 10-year-olds or something, there is no need to apply ridiculous modern trends in political correctness to a PG13+ title.

reclaimervii.sierra117ub17_ESO

Wow that's pretty sexist of you. What makes male clothes male? r u Saying women only have big boobs and skimpy outfits

/ reported

Kalfis

See you when Dark Brotherhood comes out.

You'll be back. An issue as minor as this won't stop you from enjoying this great game I'm suuuure.

sadownik

I must say i absolutely understand @IrishGirlGamer. I, middle aged male, have a strange problem - really cant get into playing female characters. Luckily for me absolute most games either have only male characters, or have mixed cast.

tinythinker

Sorry to hear about your frustration with that issue Irish. I remember this old post from when you started the game, so I know how much you like ESO. Hope to see this resolved soon.

Gidorick

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

Kalfis

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

I do the same if the only character to play is a female. It turns me off. I don't like playing as women in anything.
I don't mind if the entire game isn't female only. Like The Witcher 3, I liked the Ciri sections because they were a minor part of the game.


People have their preferences....

VShane

contour, either male or female should be complimented and custom to the figure. Its a design aspiration to be appealing to the consumer gamer how they wish to represent themselves.

babylon

Phinix1 wrote: »

Personally I find prudish censorship of sexual identity extremely petty and outmoded.

It isn't even censorship though that IrishGirlGamer and the rest of their female players are upset about - ZOS simply chose to not make armour designed for females at all, they decided instead females would have to make do with the male armour models wrapped over us instead, which is why they look so distorted.

They simply decided we are unimportant.


___________________

Gidorick

sadownik wrote: »

I must say i absolutely understand @IrishGirlGamer. I, middle aged male, have a strange problem - really cant get into playing female characters. Luckily for me absolute most games either have only male characters, or have mixed cast.

Kalfis wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

I do the same if the only character to play is a female. It turns me off. I don't like playing as women in anything.
I don't mind if the entire game isn't female only. Like The Witcher 3, I liked the Ciri sections because they were a minor part of the game.


People have their preferences....

Wow... erm... thanks @IrishGirlGamer , @sadownik and @Kalfis for educating me on this... I had absolutely NO idea this was actually a thing. Granted, when I have the choice, I play male characters but I can't imagine never having played Tomb Raider (the newest series is AMAZING), Beyond Good and Evil, Silent Hill 3, The Longest Journey, Parasite Eve, Syberia, Mirror's Edge, Medal of Honor, Underground, Metroid, Alien Isolation, or Portal! Not to mention, there are throngs of games that are good (not great) like Primal, Wet, Oni, Heavenly Sword, Beyond Two Souls, American McGee's Alice, and No One Lives Forever.

What about games that have you play a mixed cast @sadownik & @IrishGirlGamer ? Like Heavy Rain, Resident Evil, or Final Fantasy? Do any of you find you can't get into games that have you swap characters throughout the game and from one gender to the next?

Mostly, I'm just surprised to hear that gender is a deal breaker for anyone in a videogame. I remember reading an article that I thought was completely ridiculous where the developer of Remember Me was told they couldn't have a female protagonist by the publisher because guys don't want to play a female. I remember being insulted by the insinuation that gamers were so superficial. I guess the publishers were justified... even though ultimately Remember Me got a female lead... thankfully.

It's an interesting article... http://www.gamespot.com/articles/publishers-said-you-cant-have-a-female-character-says-remember-me-dev/1100-6405550/

IrishGirlGamer

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

Depends. Is Link male?

No, @Gidorick, I generally don't. I won't say I've never done it, but I really can't recall playing a game that offers a male only character for any significant length of time.

I do not like games that force me into assuming a male role. If I have a choice, that's great. If I don't, I move on. Really pretty simple.

IrishGirlGamer

Gidorick wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

I must say i absolutely understand @IrishGirlGamer. I, middle aged male, have a strange problem - really cant get into playing female characters. Luckily for me absolute most games either have only male characters, or have mixed cast.

Kalfis wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

I do the same if the only character to play is a female. It turns me off. I don't like playing as women in anything.
I don't mind if the entire game isn't female only. Like The Witcher 3, I liked the Ciri sections because they were a minor part of the game.


People have their preferences....

Wow... erm... thanks @IrishGirlGamer , @sadownik and @Kalfis for educating me on this... I had absolutely NO idea this was actually a thing. Granted, when I have the choice, I play male characters but I can't imagine never having played Tomb Raider (the newest series is AMAZING), Beyond Good and Evil, Silent Hill 3, The Longest Journey, Parasite Eve, Syberia, Mirror's Edge, Medal of Honor, Underground, Metroid, Alien Isolation, or Portal! Not to mention, there are throngs of games that are good (not great) like Primal, Wet, Oni, Heavenly Sword, Beyond Two Souls, American McGee's Alice, and No One Lives Forever.

What about games that have you play a mixed cast @sadownik & @IrishGirlGamer ? Like Heavy Rain, Resident Evil, or Final Fantasy? Do any of you find you can't get into games that have you swap characters throughout the game and from one gender to the next?

Okay, I've played:

Tomb Raider (hated the shorts, loved the guns)
Silent Hill 3 (meh, I didn't play it that long).
Resident Evil

I haven't played Final Fantasy because it didn't appeal to me. Again, Meh.

Mirror's Edge is great. It's an awesome game and I love it.

But you're right @Gidorick: I remembered that I have played all the Bioshock series and they are male only.

Gidorick

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

Depends. Is Link male?

No, @Gidorick, I generally don't. I won't say I've never done it, but I really can't recall playing a game that offers a male only character for any significant length of time.

I do not like games that force me into assuming a male role. If I have a choice, that's great. If I don't, I move on. Really pretty simple.

I find that fascinating. I have never had any issue relating or connecting with a character based on gender alone. Do you have a similar issue with movies or books that have male leads? I assume not because those aren't interactive mediums.

babylon

@Gidorick - I don't play males either, it's a thing for lots of people...especially females who have had to put up with many games either forcing male characters on us, or forcing us to only play as healers or one of the other "female type roles".

For me I don't like playing a male because it feels alien to me, the male character feels clumsy and awkward, and I can't relate to it.

Right now ZOS is forcing a visually horrible male-like form on our characters by forcing them to wear armour designed only for the male body and not for the female body then draping it over our precious female characters we relate to as we are females, and this is unacceptable.

Go home and tell your wives from now on they can only wear your old male clothes and never wear female clothes again, see how that goes down.

Gidorick

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

I must say i absolutely understand @IrishGirlGamer. I, middle aged male, have a strange problem - really cant get into playing female characters. Luckily for me absolute most games either have only male characters, or have mixed cast.

Kalfis wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

I do the same if the only character to play is a female. It turns me off. I don't like playing as women in anything.
I don't mind if the entire game isn't female only. Like The Witcher 3, I liked the Ciri sections because they were a minor part of the game.


People have their preferences....

Wow... erm... thanks @IrishGirlGamer , @sadownik and @Kalfis for educating me on this... I had absolutely NO idea this was actually a thing. Granted, when I have the choice, I play male characters but I can't imagine never having played Tomb Raider (the newest series is AMAZING), Beyond Good and Evil, Silent Hill 3, The Longest Journey, Parasite Eve, Syberia, Mirror's Edge, Medal of Honor, Underground, Metroid, Alien Isolation, or Portal! Not to mention, there are throngs of games that are good (not great) like Primal, Wet, Oni, Heavenly Sword, Beyond Two Souls, American McGee's Alice, and No One Lives Forever.

What about games that have you play a mixed cast @sadownik & @IrishGirlGamer ? Like Heavy Rain, Resident Evil, or Final Fantasy? Do any of you find you can't get into games that have you swap characters throughout the game and from one gender to the next?

Okay, I've played:

Tomb Raider (hated the shorts, loved the guns)
Silent Hill 3 (meh, I didn't play it that long).
Resident Evil

I haven't played Final Fantasy because it didn't appeal to me. Again, Meh.

Mirror's Edge is great. It's an awesome game and I love it.

But you're right @Gidorick: I remembered that I have played all the Bioshock series and they are male only.

Do you enjoy games that feature a strong female in a prominent roll more? like... do you think you enjoyed Bioshock Infinite more because of Elizabeth?... she was an amazing character by the way.

SanTii.92

Edit. Ok I got it. And agree with you.

babylon

sAnn92 wrote: »

Hey @IrishGirlGamer could you point me out in which way you feel female characters are forced to use a male shaped clothing and armor models ? I feel like I should be aware of something that I am not.

Read this thread here

This monstrosity is male armour wrapped over the female body, which is why it looks so horribly distorted. ZOS has decided they will no longer design armour for the female body and we will now have to "make do" with armour made for the male form instead of having our own meshes.

IrishGirlGamer

Gidorick wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

Depends. Is Link male?

No, @Gidorick, I generally don't. I won't say I've never done it, but I really can't recall playing a game that offers a male only character for any significant length of time.

I do not like games that force me into assuming a male role. If I have a choice, that's great. If I don't, I move on. Really pretty simple.

I find that fascinating. I have never had any issue relating or connecting with a character based on gender alone. Do you have a similar issue with movies or books that have male leads? I assume not because those aren't interactive mediums.

No, but then I might not "relate" to them; I might just enjoy them. Then again, I'm not playing a role, either. One of my favorite movies is Kill Bill, but I don't necessarily relate to The Bride. I just enjoy the movie.

But now that you've got me thinking, I'm trying to recall all the games I've played that feature a male only character. Bioshock is probably going to be it. I cannot recall another game that was male character only that I played for any significant time. (I have played Half Life, but only briefly).

Witcher was the first game that I recall loading and consciously thinking, "Wow, I have to play as a guy? Really?" And I shut it down and didn't play it again.

But I've had a couple of characters in the TES series which were male. They were both Khajiit's, I don't know what that means. And I've also had the choice.

So I guess I generally do not relate to male characters in video games. Meh.

Gidorick

sAnn92 wrote: »

Hey @IrishGirlGamer could you point me out in which way you feel female characters are forced to use a male shaped clothing and armor models ? I feel like I should be aware of something that I am not.

Check out this @sAnn92

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/257543/zos-please-reconsider-your-decision-to-no-longer-make-female-light-armor/p1

Hookgrin

I've only read a few posts by IrishGirlGamer, but sounds like someone I would like to know irl.

I don't know if the design issue is sexist or not but one thing I have notice with some other games: when developers start cutting corners with graphics, reduce the polygon count of the characters (ever wonder why the character never looks as good as they do in the character creator?) and dumb down environment graphics, it's a bad sign. The high quality graphics are what drew me to this game and is why I have remained subbed from early access. So much has fallen apart, but I can still enjoy the views. The day I don't enjoy the graphics any more is when I start looking elsewhere.

Please don't go down that road ZOS. Respect the abilities of your artists. Make the game systems able to display their artistry, don't reduce the graphics as a band-aid to the game systems.

tinythinker

Gidorick wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Wait... you don't play a videogame if the only character to play is male?

Depends. Is Link male?

No, @Gidorick, I generally don't. I won't say I've never done it, but I really can't recall playing a game that offers a male only character for any significant length of time.

I do not like games that force me into assuming a male role. If I have a choice, that's great. If I don't, I move on. Really pretty simple.

I find that fascinating. I have never had any issue relating or connecting with a character based on gender alone. Do you have a similar issue with movies or books that have male leads? I assume not because those aren't interactive mediums.

I'm not responding on behalf of Irish since she can clearly articulate her own views, but I have known or heard of people with similar preferences. I mean, sure, on one level people can generally identify with characters on the basis of some trait other than gender, sex, sexual orientation, skin color, religion, etc. Maybe the protagonists are dreamer heroes, or people pulled into some dark situation against their will, or they have the power to fight some representation of corruption. Broad appeal with those.

Yet, for some it gets tiring having heroes be male, straight, white, cis-gendered, etc. I can cite a list of games with heroes who are not 100% all of those things, don't get me wrong, but for some people certain features make characters more fun and relatable. Maybe they are more fun not because of direct relatability but indirectly because of the way a story is told or represented. In a sci-fi or fantasy RPG with the level of tech and coding available today, the main reason not to have a wide variety of options in character creation is to cut costs. In this case the issue is with costumes that cover over or distort those choices in character creation.

I know that some people were thrilled when Furcadia had a third gender option that was neither male nor female, or when you could make a black version of Commander Shepherd in the Mass Effect trilogy. But supporting a game just because of such options has pitfalls because gamers of all stripes want to have fun, not just a relatable character. Those games and others like them were/are fun, so win-win. I'm sure there are trolls who love to jump into topics like this, but, at the end of the day, there is a large and lucrative gaming market so dropping the balls on something as simple as making male and female versions of costumes sold in a cash shop is definitely an unforced error.

IrishGirlGamer

NM