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If it was grief-proof, would you like to see Justice System phase 2 - PvP?
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Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Tell me: is it engaging to fail at thieving in ESO?
My answer would be a definite NO. And that is the reason I do not spend more time in ESO doing criminal activities.
The sense of accomplishment eludes me since a newborn could get away with crime in ESO.
Edited by Dubhliam on March 7, 2016 1:14PM2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoTell me: is it engaging to fail at thieving in ESO?
My answer would be a definite NO. And that is the reason I do not spend more time in ESO doing criminal activities.
The sense of accomplishment eludes me since a newborn could get away with crime in ESO.
You've obviously never stolen while standing directly beside a guard, patiently waiting for the exact moment he happens to be looking in the other direction.
Or enjoyed creeping past a whole city full of guards while there's a massive bounty on your head, ducking between the dark corners every time a guard does his rounds.
As in - you've never attempted to push the limits using your own imagination.Edited by babylon on March 7, 2016 2:36PM3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tell me: is it engaging to fail at thieving in ESO?
My answer would be a definite NO. And that is the reason I do not spend more time in ESO doing criminal activities.
The sense of accomplishment eludes me since a newborn could get away with crime in ESO.
You've obviously never stolen while standing directly beside a guard, patiently waiting for the exact moment he happens to be looking in the other direction.
Or enjoyed creeping past a whole city full of guards while there's a massive bounty on your head, ducking between the dark corners every time a guard does his rounds.
As in - you've never attempted to push the limits using your own imagination.
I have, it is a very fun aspect this game provides, and I want that sensation to last.
The moment I actually got caught stealing and when the most exciting part of this system should have come to play, I just got a "meh" reaction.
Wow, was it that easy to escape a guard?
Let me try again...
Yup, guards are no threat whatsoever.
From that point on, all criminal activities just lost their flavor. I could not "get it going" for me anymore.
I may be an "odd egg" in all this mess - I am neither a role player so that I imagine a danger lurking around the corner, nor am I an opportunist that will enjoy going on a rampage killing all NPCs in sight and stealing everything I can lay my hands on.
There are examples of both, and they are comfortable with the current Justice system.
1. a role player - They can make a fun experience with almost anything that the devs throw at them, they just need a sandbox. An average RP player will most likely be a casual player with a basic understanding of the game's mechanic therefore guards probably pose a real threat more likely than just pretend.
2. an exploiter - They will take any given tool and use it to explore any mechanic to it's limit in various new ways. These players are math addicts, they are usually hard core gamers with good understanding of all game mechanics. You see them with a 30kk bounty, running around YOLOing. They walk up to a guard and slap him in the face just for the lulz.
There is no middle ground here, for those non-casual players that want to participate in the Justice system but guards present no challenge to them.
And now with the TG DLC, the exploiter just gets a new way for them to wash out all that bounty after their rampage.
And please don't make a big fuss of the term "exploiter", I wrote that in lack of a more appropriate word, if you have something more appropriate, please do tell, I'll edit it.Edited by Dubhliam on March 7, 2016 3:40PM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »What is the purpose of this poll. It really says nothing.
The purpose is that people assume this system cannot be done without people being able to exploit and grief.
That is the sole reason they oppose this system.
If it could be done grief-proof, they have no reason to hate this system. Yet they firmly refuse to believe it is possible.
They keep pointing fingers at IC as if that was in any way similar.
Actually, you are assuming it can be done without grief. OP offers absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. [snip]
Edit, this thread should be locked. It will likely devolve into bashing since it lacks substance, unfortunately.
[edited for bait]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on March 7, 2016 5:00PM3 -
Pangnirtung✭✭✭✭✭Griefing might be a problem.
What might also be a problem is friends who purposely set themselves to be killed by other "friends" to boost their stats?3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »What is the purpose of this poll. It really says nothing.
The purpose is that people assume this system cannot be done without people being able to exploit and grief.
That is the sole reason they oppose this system.
If it could be done grief-proof, they have no reason to hate this system. Yet they firmly refuse to believe it is possible.
They keep pointing fingers at IC as if that was in any way similar.
Actually, you are assuming it can be done without grief. OP offers absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise.
I AM the OP.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2594543/#Comment_2594543
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2603609/#Comment_2603609
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2752271/#Comment_2752271
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2752707/#Comment_2752707
Now let's hear your ideas how you think it would be exploited.Edited by Dubhliam on March 7, 2016 3:56PM0 -
DMBCML✭✭✭NoPeople complain all the time about getting their Tel Var stones jacked can you imagine if you could take their armor and gold lol. I like the idea but would never fly, people are too whinny.
Where did you get an idea you could snatch somebody's armor or gold?
When the police arrest a criminal, do they get to keep the stolen money and/or drugs?
LOL... Yes, they do. They take it back to their evidence lockers and sort through it. Crooked cops keep it, other stuff become police property and is auctioned off or used for police purposes... think vehicle grabs, homes, seized bank accounts, etc. all prior to being found guilty of the crime.0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Actually, you are assuming it can be done without grief. OP offers absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. If the OP had made an actual sugestion then an actual conversation could occur.
Edit, this thread should be locked. It will likely devolve into bashing since it lacks substance, unfortunately.
What OP actually suggested is that PVE players simply not steal, then they won't be able to be killed by PVP actions...ie OP advocates banning PVE players from participating in the Justice System at all, in PVE areas.
OP wants PVE players to not be able to enjoy the Justice System.BUT!
If there was no possible way you could "accidentally" steal something, or whatnot...
Edited by babylon on March 7, 2016 3:58PM3 -
DMBCML✭✭✭NoNeillMcAttack wrote: »I am genuinely surprised at peoples reactions to this system.
A system that could turn all those beautiful area's into a more exciting, more eventful place to play and people are saying no.
I just can't see the reasoning........ someone help me out here!!
I wanted it, until IC came out and I saw how that failed so badly.3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »What is the purpose of this poll. It really says nothing.
The purpose is that people assume this system cannot be done without people being able to exploit and grief.
That is the sole reason they oppose this system.
If it could be done grief-proof, they have no reason to hate this system. Yet they firmly refuse to believe it is possible.
They keep pointing fingers at IC as if that was in any way similar.
Actually, you are assuming it can be done without grief. OP offers absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. If the OP had made an actual sugestion then an actual conversation could occur.
Edit, this thread should be locked. It will likely devolve into bashing since it lacks substance, unfortunately.
I am the only one actually giving constructive feedback and suggestions in this thread.
Saying something like "grief'proof is impossible, you are delusional" is not in any way constructive.
[snip] Please refrain from posting here unless you have anything constructive to say. [snip]
[Edited for naming and baiting]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on March 7, 2016 4:55PM0 -
DMBCML✭✭✭NoWell if people don't get caught stealing the bandit and guard system wouldn't effect them but yeah [people want o steal and get away from a bunch of milk drinking guards which is easy enough.
In order to get the achievements that go along with the justice system, you must get caught. PvP means someone will keep you from reaching those achievements.3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well if people don't get caught stealing the bandit and guard system wouldn't effect them but yeah [people want o steal and get away from a bunch of milk drinking guards which is easy enough.
In order to get the achievements that go along with the justice system, you must get caught. PvP means someone will keep you from reaching those achievements.
How would getting caught by a player be any different to getting caught by a guard?Also, to get into detail about the Enforcer:
- gets a new skill line, just like legerdemain, with an active skill "Apprehend", which would just be a single target long range low cost skill castable on Outlaws with bounties that CCs them for 15 secs, and prompts them to pay their bounty (much like guards do).
- passives provide an advantage in fighting Outlaws like more resistance against their attacks, reducing their CC immunity time and increasing your stealth detection radius.
Also, bounties would need some overhaul: (note that only NPCs can "see" and report a crime")
-Disreputable – SAFE FROM PvP the lowest level. All guards will generally ignore you unless you approach them.
(the Outlaw gets an icon above his head, much like the Alliance icons in Cyrodill, can be Apprehended)
-Notorious – SAFE FROM PvP You’ll be chased down by the guards, who enlist other guards to assist in the pursuit.
(same as above, also his stealth radius is impaired, and all nearby Enforcers are notified there was a crime in #city name)
-Fugitive – NOT SAFE from PvP The highest level. Guards will always try to kill you.
(same as above but can no longer be Apprehended and is attackable by Enforcers instead, also if detected by a guard or Enforcer his icon gets displayed on map for as long as he is out of stealth)1 -
bikerangelo✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesFor starters (assuming in an ideal scenario that a grief-proof system exists), it should be an explicit opt in system and shouldn't revolve around how high someone's bounty is. You can enable a feature that prevents you from attacking innocent NPC's in the game settings, so the opt in system should function in a similar fashion.
However, this system would be far too complex to implement while keeping both the pvp and pve player bases happy, so the best short term solution for pvp'ers who are sick of Cyrodiil is to wait for dueling and small scale arenas.
The horse has gone through enough already, and asking for ideal situations is just impractical.1 -
WhitePawPrints✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesThis is just another promise that Zenimax did not deliver on.
And no, no one in the right mind would implement the PVP aspect on accidentally stealing a few items, or accidentally assaulting one NPC's. The criteria would be much higher of multiple murders.
With a high enough bounty, then maybe a quest would appear for other players to participate in on a board, like crafting writs. Then only those that accepted the quest for that specific player can hunt down this player. That is where this system would probably fail because it would be incredibly easy for this murderer to avoid detection - pay the bounty to a guard or fence, use a wayshrine to get out of the area where no one will be looking for you, hide in some remote place, log off!
All the fears of having PVE and PVP mixed are far from being the true challenges with this proposed system.1 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭The more feedback I get from this thread, the more I think that the instanced "PvP heists" would be the most elegant solution.
On another note (I hate to promote other games here, but they serve as an example):
This is a review of "top 10 stealth games":
At the very beginning the host says:
"The stealth mechanics is steadily decreased in good games of recent. It seemed everyone is far too quick to go in guns blazing. Stealth in games is something that requires patience and practice. It doesn't hold your hand at all if you get caught and honestly, punishes you if you DO get caught."Edited by Dubhliam on March 7, 2016 4:35PM0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No
People fear open world PvP, I get that.
Actually, you don't get it at all. It isn't that people fear open world PvP, it's that they don't want it.
Why do PvPers always assume that non-PvPers are afraid of PvP? It's simply that a lot of people play these games to co-operate with other players rather than to have conflict with them, and they don't want their questing and other adventuring activities (including the PvE elements of the Justice System in PvE areas) interrupted by PvP actions they have no interest in.6 -
ZOS_CoriJ✭✭✭✭✭This is just a notice that some of the conversation has gotten heated and pushing accusation. There is nothing wrong with the topic of discussion itself, but we want to remember to be respectful of all perspectives for or against issues. A statement can be made for an discussion without personal attack on another person or insult toward other ideas. This is just a reminder so that arguments do not escalate.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site
No longer available to take PMs or messages: Please defer to another Moderator0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
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People fear open world PvP, I get that.
Actually, you don't get it at all. It isn't that people fear open world PvP, it's that they don't want it.
Why do PvPers always assume that non-PvPers are afraid of PvP? It's simply that a lot of people play these games to co-operate with other players rather than to have conflict with them, and they don't want their questing and other adventuring activities (including the PvE elements of the Justice System in PvE areas) interrupted by PvP actions they have no interest in.
By "interrupted", you mean, get punished for being caught?
First of all: who do players "co-operate with" while performing criminal activities? Or go on a NPC killing rampage.
Second: the suggestions I made do not change the basic Justice System mechanics. If someone fancies stealing without players chasing them when they get caught, there they have it! PvP free, enjoy as much as you like. Same as now.
And again, I have to repeat myself, I am not a PvPer.Edited by Dubhliam on March 7, 2016 4:50PM1 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, as of yet the poll votes stand about 2:1 in favor of the PvP justice.
Much as @Lefty_Lucy 's thread, (which was 3:1), it shows that there are still a lot of people willing to beat that dead horse till he's just bones.
ESO's stealth mechanic is just not thrilling enough outside Cyrodill, which I do not participate in.
And even after we (eventually) get the desired Dueling Arena, I will still come back to beat the bones of this horse as I want to participate in a better Justice System.
This day marks my first day of mourning for the horse since today TG launches without the Justice System I hoped would carry the stealth gameplay in ESO.1 -
Aelthwyn✭✭✭✭✭No
Even if I’m not ‘participating’ I don’t want to have it going on all around me.People fear open world PvP, I get that. Even though their fear is misplaced since nobody would be participating unwillingly.
Agreed. I don’t like an air of conflict between players and want a more positive helpful atmosphere when doing PVE stuff. I don’t want the added tense-ness of worrying if other players you might have wanted to group with in the public dungeon or something are checking to see if you have a bounty or whatever. I want a sense of camaraderie between players against the NPC enemies, not infighting between players within their home faction.
People fear open world PvP, I get that.
Actually, you don't get it at all. It isn't that people fear open world PvP, it's that they don't want it.
Why do PvPers always assume that non-PvPers are afraid of PvP? It's simply that a lot of people play these games to co-operate with other players rather than to have conflict with them, and they don't want their questing and other adventuring activities (including the PvE elements of the Justice System in PvE areas) interrupted by PvP actions they have no interest in.
And I feel like in-faction hostilities of this kind could undermine some of the team spirit on the battle field for those who do like PVP - not for everyone, but still….Even grief proof you'd still have people who would sit around in the cities all day waiting for people to commit crimes.
That would lead to increased congestion in cities.
Increased congestion would lead to lag.
More lag is bad.
Thus my answer is no because of lag.
Exactly. I don’t even want to think about Elden Root with PVP stuff going on there, it takes ages to load as it is now. Most of the time my mount that I’m ‘riding’ doesn’t even spawn till I’ve reached the door to upstairs.
Yeah, for those who are not interested in PVP but still want to participate in the crime aspect of the game, even adding PVP only for highest level bounties still tresspasses on this. It’s not an aspect of the game that inherently needs to be PVP - the war in cyrodil yes, and if you don’t want to do PVP I don’t think you’re still entitled to related achievements and what not, however the PVE area crimes should definitely be able to be done without PVP being forced on you - at any level.What OP actually suggested is that PVE players simply not steal, then they won't be able to be killed by PVP actions...ie OP advocates banning PVE players from participating in the Justice System at all, in PVE areas.
OP wants PVE players to not be able to enjoy the Justice System.
Additionally you are ‘battle leveled’ in Cyrodil, but in your regular factions you’re not, so how would they prevent High level characters basically halting any low level’s progress in the ledgermain skill until they can become high level AND competent PVPers?
5 -
Jaronking✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesI been reading this thread twice and trying to understand all the posters who voted no and I have came to the conclusion that the majority of you guys are [snip] only thinking about yourself and not other players and the health of the game for most players who voted no.You are only thinking about yourself in this instance under the belief that it will mess up your experience in PVE.While not even being affected by it since all you Zos has to do is make a Toggle to say not to be flagged for PVP. Unless you think ZOs programmers are so terrible that they can't even code a toggle correctly.This doesn't affect you in no way at all you and so you want to ruin it for others people. Godly why are we all so selfish.
[edited to remove bait]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on March 8, 2016 3:59PM2 -
Vorcil✭✭✭✭NoNo;
I just want to enjoy my thieving alone, no reason I should have to worry about cheap templars and others spamming biting jabs and wrecking blow all day.
Just no. If you want to ruin someone's day go to IC and Cyrodiil, but keep PvE to PvE.5 -
houjo2000b16_ESO✭✭✭NoNo, it can't be grief proof unless it's completely opt in. The thieving system is great as it is without level 5s being one shot by v16s hanging out by the refuge entrances.
Now, if the system were a toggle it could work, but in that case you still run two risks. Either a- nobody wants to toggle on the criminal side, leading it to be very boring for enforcers as well as still making it so criminals face swarms at refuge gates.
Or, b- it gets lots of interest (look at open pvp zones so far and realize this won't happen, but let's pretend); in which case, already packed cities now are flooded with FFA pvp, both completely ruining the point of hub cities, not making any sense lore-wise and making them laggy nightmares.
Sure, it's nice to say 'but grief free', but that's really not something that's possible- at least in other pvp zones you scale level and you're willingly entering a pvp zone- the justice system has massive level differences and most 'participants' aren't willing. There's a reason pretty much no game has FFA pvp outside of a few niche titles. This isn't a FFA PvP niche game, it's at best a RvRvR game, and even that's limited to few areas due to lack of interest.5 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Actually, you are assuming it can be done without grief. OP offers absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. If the OP had made an actual sugestion then an actual conversation could occur.
Edit, this thread should be locked. It will likely devolve into bashing since it lacks substance, unfortunately.
What OP actually suggested is that PVE players simply not steal, then they won't be able to be killed by PVP actions...ie OP advocates banning PVE players from participating in the Justice System at all, in PVE areas.
OP wants PVE players to not be able to enjoy the Justice System.BUT!
If there was no possible way you could "accidentally" steal something, or whatnot...
It is hard to keep this thread civilized with such bashing and baiting.
And then other people quoting someone else's statement as my true opinion and motive.
To prevent such misleading information, from now on my posts will be much longer with all or any of my previous suggestions in each of my posts.
I have so far presented two suggestions, the first was long ago, when @Lefty_Lucy made a video on this topic:Also, to get into detail about the Enforcer:
- gets a new skill line, just like legerdemain, with an active skill "Apprehend", which would just be a single target long range low cost skill castable on Outlaws with bounties that CCs them for 15 secs, and prompts them to pay their bounty (much like guards do).
- passives provide an advantage in fighting Outlaws like more resistance against their attacks, reducing their CC immunity time and increasing your stealth detection radius.
Also, bounties would need some overhaul: (note that only NPCs can "see" and report a crime")
-Disreputable – SAFE FROM PvP the lowest level. All guards will generally ignore you unless you approach them.
(the Outlaw gets an icon above his head, much like the Alliance icons in Cyrodill, can be Apprehended)
-Notorious – SAFE FROM PvP You’ll be chased down by the guards, who enlist other guards to assist in the pursuit.
(same as above, also his stealth radius is impaired, and all nearby Enforcers are notified there was a crime in #city name)
-Fugitive – NOT SAFE from PvP The highest level. Guards will always try to kill you.
(same as above but can no longer be Apprehended and is attackable by Enforcers instead, also if detected by a guard or Enforcer his icon gets displayed on map for as long as he is out of stealth)
Then add set items that can be stolen of high quality. Remember that having 75 points in Shadow increases the quality of items found in chests - this makes it possible to steal legendary quality gear - nice way to farm sets or decon for temper mats.
Being a thief should be all high risk - high reward kind of playstyle.
Oh yeah, one more thing: after implementing the Enforcer system, the guards should become killable. Hard to kill, but not immortal.
Attacking them would, ofc give you the fugitive status and you would be marked on the map so good luck with that
Also, to point out why the Enforcer passives should give advantages over Outlaws:
If the Outlaw vs Enforces battle was not heavily in favor of the law Enforcers, it would encourage Outlaw grouping and intentional fighting with the Enforcers.
This is NOT the kind of playstyle that should be encouraged in thieves.
Instead they should be playing solo - smart and stealthy. And ofc, if they get caught, their priority should be to disappear asap, not fight prolonged fights.
Although this kind of thread is usually a war between the two opposing player bases, it really should not be. There are plenty of players that enjoy both worlds, and who's to say some of the PvEer would not come to like this Justice System?
Let me make one thing perfectly clear before even beginning:
This should NOT be a fix for people who want to 1v1. Arenas are coming, that part of the PvP population will be adressed in due time.
That being said, Enforcers should have a significant advantage over Outlaws to prevent intentional fighting. Passives like 50% damage reduction from Outlaws, increased detection radius, increased CC immunity etc. should be in the Enforcer tree line.
The introduction of this system would only serve to improve and add depth to an existing PvE system that is not really interesting for a majority of the playerbase. I mean, was it intended for people to walk around with 33kk bounties?
So, I have been combing this thread for reasons why people don't want this implemented.
I will try to present a solution to each one, based on what I think should be implemented:
1. There is no room for PvP in PvE zones.Split the zones into normal ones (same as today) and PvP ones (cadwell silver and gold). New players will still be unaffected by PvP, and veteran players can pick up dailies that send them into those zones to steal for better rewards vs greater risk. No "opt-in" solution, there would be no confusion to who can or cant' be attacked (provided they have Fugitive bounty). So, the whole PvP-free zones would still be very much alive.2. Implementing this system is hard and can potentially ruin the experience for players.True, it is hard, but this is their job: to provide us with worthwhile content. If ZOS can spend a lot of their time and resources on mounts, pets and costumes, they can do this Justice system. Also true it can be potentially badly implemented. Emphasis on potentially. Just if something has a chance to go wrong, does not make the effort worthless.3. ZOS should focus their resources on more pressing matters like Cyro lag.It is true there are matters where they should focus their resources, but that does not mean that implementing this system would somehow put everything else on hold. Cyro lag will one day be fixed. Balance issues will be fixed. Bugs will be fixed. Once all those are fixed, you are left with a smooth game without a content 80% players want to see.4. I don't want to be ganked/forced to PvP.This is simply not true. Nobody would be forced to PvP. There would be safe zones (5 starter zones) and PvP zones (Cadwell's). Also, even if you wish to go to Cadwell zones to collect skyshards, you could not be ganked just like that. You'd have to commit multiple crimes until you get Fugitive status before anyone can attack you. Prevent attacking innocents is a mechanic already in use.5. I already have a 9999 gazillion bounty, and I dread of what might happen to me.This is exactly an indication that the current system is not at all risky or balanced. Thieves walking right to a guard and slapping him in the face is not really a "sneaky" thing to do. In my opinion, these issues could be adressed with an ingame "pardon system" where the person with the bounty could work their way out of the bounty. It would mean that person should stay away from PvP (Cadwell) zones until their bounty is repaid.6. I played another MMO with a Justice system and it was full of grievers.If another MMO implemented some system poorly, that does not mean ESO will have a ganking mechanic also. Take some time to read any of the suggestions in this thread, and you will see that those people that do not want to participate in PvP Justice have many many ways of staying out of it. For example, staying in starter zones or not commiting multiple crimes.7. I don't want to look at PvP. It distracts me. "Immersion".You got me there. I got no answer to that. I guess ZOS should deprive 80% of their playerbase of a fun experience just so you can continue eating sweetrolls in peace. Okay, enough with my joking, people who are all into that immersion thing should just stay away from Cadwell zones. Go get your skyshards and get out never to return.8. Possible exploits.POST
Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him. Who gets the bounty? What if A purposely carries no gold? Is it subtracted from the bank? Same for contraband items. Who gets it? an Enforcer should never get the stolen items or gold that the bounty is worth (it should still be subtracted from the Outlaw) but get that many justice points that could be a requirement for an Enforcer daily completion.
Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him with help from a guard. Who gets the bounty? Is the bounty going to be split like AP? What if it's two or more player enforcers? Who gets the contraband? see above
What about wayshrining away when attacked? Very good observation, would need to work the same way as doors work now - 5 second out of combat rule.
Is this flagging system going to be active in Cyrodiil? Or cooperative activities like trials and dungeons? This system should not be active in Cyrodill and group instanced content, and be focused in PvE world maps instead.
Will NPC guards still be invincible? No, they should become killable, but very hard to kill. If we are taking into consideration my previous suggestion that the 5 starter zones (from the native alliance) are excluded from Justice PvP, those guards should stay invincible.
How will stealth work? Will Enforcers be unable to see Thieves? Can Civilians see Thieves? What about Civilian Thieves (aka people that have bounties but don't flag themselves)? Stealth would work much like in Cyro. Again, I have to reffer to my previous suggestion - don't make the opt in/out option available, make PvP and non PvP maps instead.
How would healing work? Will spells have to check whether the target is a Civilian or a Thief or an Enforcer and not affect them accordingly? see above
How would you address people who zerg around in large groups, as either Enforcers or Thieves? A VERY valid point, this system should stay small scale PvP. That is the reason in my suggestion that I think Enforcers should get a skill line with passives that significantly enhances their performance against Outlaws. Outlaws are discouraged to fight, and must turn to hiding and running IF they ever get a lvl3 bounty. Enforcers are wasting time if they zerg around waiting for a person to get a lvl3 bounty (only obtainable with NPC spotting). REMEMBER! This should not be a way for people to intentionally 1v1 or zerg. Arenas are coming eventually, that will be the place to 1v1, and hopefully we'll get balance by then.
How would you prevent the camping of Refuge entrances or Enforcer strongholds? Yet another very valid point. Refuges should sell recall scrolls, much as those in IC.
How would you address level differences between players? Is there going to be battle leveling for all who flag themselves? Again I have to point to my suggestion that leaves starter zones PvP free. PvP Justice should be promoted in battle leveled areas (DLCs excluding IC and hopefully Cadwell silver and gold)
To recap:
Home alliance maps have no changes regarding to Justice.
To participate in PvP Justice, you need to be lvl 50+, and it is restricted to Cadwell zones (non native alliances).
This might still be a lot for players that don't want their immersion ruined so in light of update 2,3 where we now have new thieving mechanics like the heists, I made a much more PvE friendly suggestion where PvP would only be added in new and separate heists for veteran players:Also, just to give you a glimpse of "separating PvP from PvE".
One of the things they could do is "PvP heists":
- Level 50+ members of the Thief Guild can take PvP heist jobs (separate from normal Heists) that take them into instanced areas with X treasure chests.
- Level 50+ members of the Iron Wheel can register for a job, then a Cyro-like queue would jump them into an occupied instance with a thief inside. (1TG, 1IW max) Why not make it that if a thief gets spotted while in a Heist (instance, not open world), a player gets notified and teleported into that instance to try and catch that thief.
- The goal of the thief is to get as much treasure possible without getting caught (gains nothing from killing guard).
- The goal of the guard is to capture the thief or at least prevent him from looting all chests in time.
Kind of like hide and seek.
This second suggestion is still the exact same PvE Justice System with just one thing added - veteran heists.
Much as causal players have the option to beat Maelstrom Arena in normal mode, casual thieves still have the Justice system intact, and PvP-free.
For those players that want a challenge, and wish to improve in Maelstrom Arena or thieving, they have veteran instances where they can go to (vMA and veteran heists).
Nobody forces anybody to do vMA, do they? Nobody has to go play a heist with PvP punishment (remember, it is still a normal PvE heist until you get caught by nps, at which point an Iron Wheel member player is notified and teleported to your instance) if they don't want to.
[snip]
No, I don't want to prevent a PvE player from enjoying the Justice System as it is now.
[Edited for baiting comment]
Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on March 8, 2016 4:23PM0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's already grief-proof. Just log out. No PVE guards. No PVP Righteous Neckbeard breathing down your neck. It's an entirely avoidable penalty system if you think things through.
The only way Justice would ever actually work is if you only had one character and had to face lasting consequences for negative actions. Which is, of course, called a single-player game.
So far, I believe this was one of the most constructive negative feedback in this thread.
And it does have a point: the current system has an avoidable penalty tied to it.
BUT!
If a reward was tied to a quest or instance that needs to be completed successfully, getting caught stealing would mean not getting the reward. Punishment enough.
I have already given an example of such a system:
This post is an example of another constructive feedback:One of the things they could do is "PvP heists":
- Level 50+ members of the Thief Guild can take PvP heist jobs (separate from normal Heists) that take them into instanced areas with X treasure chests.
- Level 50+ members of the Iron Wheel can register for a job, then a Cyro-like queue would jump them into an occupied instance with a thief inside. (1TG, 1IW max) Why not make it that if a thief gets spotted while in a Heist (instance, not open world), a player gets notified and teleported into that instance to try and catch that thief.
- The goal of the thief is to get as much treasure possible without getting caught (gains nothing from killing guard).
- The goal of the guard is to capture the thief or at least prevent him from looting all chests in time.
It is still the exact same PvE Justice System with just one thing added - veteran heists.
Much as causal players have the option to beat Maelstrom Arena in normal mode, casual thieves still have the Justice system intact, and PvP-free.
For those players that want a challenge, and wish to improve in Maelstrom Arena or thieving, they have veteran instances where they can go to (vMA and veteran heists).
Nobody forces anybody to do vMA, do they? Nobody has to go play a heist with PvP punishment (remember, it is still a normal PvE heist until you get caught by nps, at which point an Iron Wheel member player is notified and teleported to your instance) if they don't want to.Pangnirtung wrote: »Griefing might be a problem.
What might also be a problem is friends who purposely set themselves to be killed by other "friends" to boost their stats?
The bypass for this kind of exploitation in the above suggestion is this:
- an Iron Wheel member does not get gold or items that s/he confiscated from the thief
- s/he instead gains Justice points for successfully capturing the thief (or a repeatable quest), it is easy making a reward system for law enforcers
- the system places law enforces into instances, and since they cannot choose who they chase, it prevents intentional exploiting
I call out to nay sayers:@RAGUNAnoOneto read the above suggestion in full and point out any exploits and or griefing opportunities presented.
@jamesharv2005ub17_ESOThere is no possible way to make grief proof PvP it should be seperate from PvE at least in this game.
@heledironNo such thing as grief proof. Waste of time bothering with it. Move on.
@WolfenbelleAfter IC failure of mixing PvP and PvE, no. But there is one exception: Implement it in Cyro or in revised IC.
@MercyKillingAbsolutely NO!!!! If ZOS ever implemented some kind of game-wide PvP, I would quit the game. After the experiences I've had in IC, there is NO WAY whatsoever that I'd want to see anything even remotely similar implemented game wide. It would not be exciting to me. It would not be fun. It would totally ruin the game for me.Umm............lemme think.......no. Leave PvP where it is. Out of sight, out of mind.You sir, are obviously and painfully unaware of the inescapable fact of internet gaming.
To wit; if it CAN be abused it most certainly will be, and nothing is totally grief proof.
@babylonWell, I do not factor in any "DLC" into my posts for I do not OWN any "DLC". If griefing occurs there, then I am blissfully unaware of it and will never experience it until ZoS sees fit to make it free for me to download and play.
Edit:
The point is: there are many reasons not to implement this. You just cannot or will not grasp the theory behind them all.Uh no, I still want to steal, but I don't want to interact with you or any other player, I only want to deal with NPCs.
So a big fat NO to your idea about trying to prevent PVE players from experiencing the Justice System.
@AelthwynWhat OP actually suggested is that PVE players simply not steal, then they won't be able to be killed by PVP actions...ie OP advocates banning PVE players from participating in the Justice System at all, in PVE areas.
OP wants PVE players to not be able to enjoy the Justice System.No.
Even if they implemented a no steal toggle like the no targeting innocents, even if they had a no healing criminals toggle, even if they changed all quests that require you to do crime so player enforcers couldn’t camp out at known quest points and prevent people from completing those objectives, even if they could somehow prevent players blockading the entrance to thieves refuges and standing guard over chests etc., even if they prevented innocent by standers from getting hurt or drawn into a fight, even if they prevented player enforcers from killing you for petty bounties you would have payed off to a guard, even if they prevented player enforcers from specifically watching/tailing/targeting certain players just waiting to jump on every attempt to advance their ledgermain skill or theives guild/dark brother hood quests in the future, even if they could somehow prevent enforcer groups from trying to gang up on criminals and criminal groups from ganging up on enforcers in return resulting in massive fights, etc. I would not personally like to see this implemented because:
- I don’t care for battles and chaos in my nice quiet cities, which we already have enough of with the NPC guards catching people, PVP battles seem way more crazy to me
- I don’t care for markets and towns becoming more crowded with people just hanging around patrolling for criminals on top of the NPCs that are also patrolling, instead of taking care of business and moving on.
- I don’t care for the… tense, wary, unfriendliness I think this could cause among the player population of the same faction while in PvE zones, nor do I care for the out-to-get-others self-righteous attitude or the desire to get back at the ‘upstanding citizen’ types which such a system promotes, as it just seems all too likely to attract the trolls so to speak.
- I don’t want to see zone chat full of people angry about it, or whining about it, or taunts, etc.
While I’m sure they could take many measures to prevent griefing, I feel there are some unavoidable aspects I would not enjoy even if I wasn’t an active participant, and I’m not confident that even with the best efforts that they could really stop all those determined to find a way to be obnoxious to others.
@LysetteEven if I’m not ‘participating’ I don’t want to have it going on all around me.
[snip] I don’t like an air of conflict between players and want a more positive helpful atmosphere when doing PVE stuff. I don’t want the added tense-ness of worrying if other players you might have wanted to group with in the public dungeon or something are checking to see if you have a bounty or whatever. I want a sense of camaraderie between players against the NPC enemies, not infighting between players within their home faction.
And I feel like in-faction hostilities of this kind could undermine some of the team spirit on the battle field for those who do like PVP - not for everyone, but still….
[snip] I don’t even want to think about Elden Root with PVP stuff going on there, it takes ages to load as it is now. Most of the time my mount that I’m ‘riding’ doesn’t even spawn till I’ve reached the door to upstairs.
Yeah, for those who are not interested in PVP but still want to participate in the crime aspect of the game, even adding PVP only for highest level bounties still tresspasses on this. It’s not an aspect of the game that inherently needs to be PVP - the war in cyrodil yes, and if you don’t want to do PVP I don’t think you’re still entitled to related achievements and what not, however the PVE area crimes should definitely be able to be done without PVP being forced on you - at any level.
Additionally you are ‘battle leveled’ in Cyrodil, but in your regular factions you’re not, so how would they prevent High level characters basically halting any low level’s progress in the ledgermain skill until they can become high level AND competent PVPers?
@TandorGrief-proof as in what? - never commited a crime, never reported for harrasment, never used foul words, having no ledgerdemain skill line (because that tracks crime), never killed someone innocent, never murdered anybody - stuff like that?There is one other reason it shouldn't be done, and that is that it constitutes the imposition of PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas.
I understand why serious PvPers want to be able to jump casual PvEers, it's the nature of the beast, but we have to be honest and recognise that what people are asking for is simply open world PvP masquerading as some sort of a "justice" system. It wholly distorts a major aspect of the game in terms of bringing the Thieves Guild and potentially the Dark Brotherhood content into a hybrid PvE/PvP mix, and that is a mix that is proven not to work. Prudent developers will provide plenty of content for both styles of play, but not mix them together.
@Tan9oSucckaActually, you don't get it at all. It isn't that people fear open world PvP, it's that they don't want it.
Why do PvPers always assume that non-PvPers are afraid of PvP? It's simply that a lot of people play these games to co-operate with other players rather than to have conflict with them, and they don't want their questing and other adventuring activities (including the PvE elements of the Justice System in PvE areas) interrupted by PvP actions they have no interest in.
@TabbycatNo thanks.
Towns would be littered with people in hiding, waiting to gank a cheap kill.
I could see it now. Grab an item on a crafting table on accident, and like PvP in general, get cheesed by 20 people spamming crystal frags/ambush/wrecking blow.
@Giles.floydub17_ESOEven grief proof you'd still have people who would sit around in the cities all day waiting for people to commit crimes.
That would lead to increased congestion in cities.
Increased congestion would lead to lag.
More lag is bad.
Thus my answer is no because of lag.
@VorcilActually, you are assuming it can be done without grief. OP offers absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. [snip]
Edit, this thread should be locked. It will likely devolve into bashing since it lacks substance, unfortunately.
[edited for bait]
@houjo2000b16_ESONo;
I just want to enjoy my thieving alone, no reason I should have to worry about cheap templars and others spamming biting jabs and wrecking blow all day.
Just no. If you want to ruin someone's day go to IC and Cyrodiil, but keep PvE to PvE.No, it can't be grief proof unless it's completely opt in. The thieving system is great as it is without level 5s being one shot by v16s hanging out by the refuge entrances.
Now, if the system were a toggle it could work, but in that case you still run two risks. Either a- nobody wants to toggle on the criminal side, leading it to be very boring for enforcers as well as still making it so criminals face swarms at refuge gates.
Or, b- it gets lots of interest (look at open pvp zones so far and realize this won't happen, but let's pretend); in which case, already packed cities now are flooded with FFA pvp, both completely ruining the point of hub cities, not making any sense lore-wise and making them laggy nightmares.
Sure, it's nice to say 'but grief free', but that's really not something that's possible- at least in other pvp zones you scale level and you're willingly entering a pvp zone- the justice system has massive level differences and most 'participants' aren't willing. There's a reason pretty much no game has FFA pvp outside of a few niche titles. This isn't a FFA PvP niche game, it's at best a RvRvR game, and even that's limited to few areas due to lack of interest.
Since there are apparently "many reasons not to implement this and I just cannot or will not grasp the theory behind them all".Edited by Dubhliam on March 8, 2016 1:20PM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoIt's already grief-proof. Just log out. No PVE guards. No PVP Righteous Neckbeard breathing down your neck. It's an entirely avoidable penalty system if you think things through.
The only way Justice would ever actually work is if you only had one character and had to face lasting consequences for negative actions. Which is, of course, called a single-player game.
So far, I believe this was one of the most constructive negative feedback in this thread.
And it does have a point: the current system has an avoidable penalty tied to it.
BUT!
If a reward was tied to a quest or instance that needs to be completed successfully, getting caught stealing would mean not getting the reward. Punishment enough.
I have already given an example of such a system:
This post is an example of another constructive feedback:One of the things they could do is "PvP heists":
- Level 50+ members of the Thief Guild can take PvP heist jobs (separate from normal Heists) that take them into instanced areas with X treasure chests.
- Level 50+ members of the Iron Wheel can register for a job, then a Cyro-like queue would jump them into an occupied instance with a thief inside. (1TG, 1IW max) Why not make it that if a thief gets spotted while in a Heist (instance, not open world), a player gets notified and teleported into that instance to try and catch that thief.
- The goal of the thief is to get as much treasure possible without getting caught (gains nothing from killing guard).
- The goal of the guard is to capture the thief or at least prevent him from looting all chests in time.
It is still the exact same PvE Justice System with just one thing added - veteran heists.
Much as causal players have the option to beat Maelstrom Arena in normal mode, casual thieves still have the Justice system intact, and PvP-free.
For those players that want a challenge, and wish to improve in Maelstrom Arena or thieving, they have veteran instances where they can go to (vMA and veteran heists).
Nobody forces anybody to do vMA, do they? Nobody has to go play a heist with PvP punishment (remember, it is still a normal PvE heist until you get caught by nps, at which point an Iron Wheel member player is notified and teleported to your instance) if they don't want to.Pangnirtung wrote: »Griefing might be a problem.
What might also be a problem is friends who purposely set themselves to be killed by other "friends" to boost their stats?
The bypass for this kind of exploitation in the above suggestion is this:
- an Iron Wheel member does not get gold or items that s/he confiscated from the thief
- s/he instead gains Justice points for successfully capturing the thief (or a repeatable quest), it is easy making a reward system for law enforcers
- the system places law enforces into instances, and since they cannot choose who they chase, it prevents intentional exploiting
I call out to nay sayers:@RAGUNAnoOneto read the above suggestion in full and point out any exploits and or griefing opportunities presented.
@jamesharv2005ub17_ESOThere is no possible way to make grief proof PvP it should be seperate from PvE at least in this game.
@heledironNo such thing as grief proof. Waste of time bothering with it. Move on.
@WolfenbelleAfter IC failure of mixing PvP and PvE, no. But there is one exception: Implement it in Cyro or in revised IC.
@MercyKillingAbsolutely NO!!!! If ZOS ever implemented some kind of game-wide PvP, I would quit the game. After the experiences I've had in IC, there is NO WAY whatsoever that I'd want to see anything even remotely similar implemented game wide. It would not be exciting to me. It would not be fun. It would totally ruin the game for me.Umm............lemme think.......no. Leave PvP where it is. Out of sight, out of mind.You sir, are obviously and painfully unaware of the inescapable fact of internet gaming.
To wit; if it CAN be abused it most certainly will be, and nothing is totally grief proof.
@babylonWell, I do not factor in any "DLC" into my posts for I do not OWN any "DLC". If griefing occurs there, then I am blissfully unaware of it and will never experience it until ZoS sees fit to make it free for me to download and play.
Edit:
The point is: there are many reasons not to implement this. You just cannot or will not grasp the theory behind them all.Uh no, I still want to steal, but I don't want to interact with you or any other player, I only want to deal with NPCs.
So a big fat NO to your idea about trying to prevent PVE players from experiencing the Justice System.
@AelthwynWhat OP actually suggested is that PVE players simply not steal, then they won't be able to be killed by PVP actions...ie OP advocates banning PVE players from participating in the Justice System at all, in PVE areas.
OP wants PVE players to not be able to enjoy the Justice System.No.
Even if they implemented a no steal toggle like the no targeting innocents, even if they had a no healing criminals toggle, even if they changed all quests that require you to do crime so player enforcers couldn’t camp out at known quest points and prevent people from completing those objectives, even if they could somehow prevent players blockading the entrance to thieves refuges and standing guard over chests etc., even if they prevented innocent by standers from getting hurt or drawn into a fight, even if they prevented player enforcers from killing you for petty bounties you would have payed off to a guard, even if they prevented player enforcers from specifically watching/tailing/targeting certain players just waiting to jump on every attempt to advance their ledgermain skill or theives guild/dark brother hood quests in the future, even if they could somehow prevent enforcer groups from trying to gang up on criminals and criminal groups from ganging up on enforcers in return resulting in massive fights, etc. I would not personally like to see this implemented because:
- I don’t care for battles and chaos in my nice quiet cities, which we already have enough of with the NPC guards catching people, PVP battles seem way more crazy to me
- I don’t care for markets and towns becoming more crowded with people just hanging around patrolling for criminals on top of the NPCs that are also patrolling, instead of taking care of business and moving on.
- I don’t care for the… tense, wary, unfriendliness I think this could cause among the player population of the same faction while in PvE zones, nor do I care for the out-to-get-others self-righteous attitude or the desire to get back at the ‘upstanding citizen’ types which such a system promotes, as it just seems all too likely to attract the trolls so to speak.
- I don’t want to see zone chat full of people angry about it, or whining about it, or taunts, etc.
While I’m sure they could take many measures to prevent griefing, I feel there are some unavoidable aspects I would not enjoy even if I wasn’t an active participant, and I’m not confident that even with the best efforts that they could really stop all those determined to find a way to be obnoxious to others.
@LysetteEven if I’m not ‘participating’ I don’t want to have it going on all around me.
[snip] I don’t like an air of conflict between players and want a more positive helpful atmosphere when doing PVE stuff. I don’t want the added tense-ness of worrying if other players you might have wanted to group with in the public dungeon or something are checking to see if you have a bounty or whatever. I want a sense of camaraderie between players against the NPC enemies, not infighting between players within their home faction.
And I feel like in-faction hostilities of this kind could undermine some of the team spirit on the battle field for those who do like PVP - not for everyone, but still….
[snip] I don’t even want to think about Elden Root with PVP stuff going on there, it takes ages to load as it is now. Most of the time my mount that I’m ‘riding’ doesn’t even spawn till I’ve reached the door to upstairs.
Yeah, for those who are not interested in PVP but still want to participate in the crime aspect of the game, even adding PVP only for highest level bounties still tresspasses on this. It’s not an aspect of the game that inherently needs to be PVP - the war in cyrodil yes, and if you don’t want to do PVP I don’t think you’re still entitled to related achievements and what not, however the PVE area crimes should definitely be able to be done without PVP being forced on you - at any level.
Additionally you are ‘battle leveled’ in Cyrodil, but in your regular factions you’re not, so how would they prevent High level characters basically halting any low level’s progress in the ledgermain skill until they can become high level AND competent PVPers?
@TandorGrief-proof as in what? - never commited a crime, never reported for harrasment, never used foul words, having no ledgerdemain skill line (because that tracks crime), never killed someone innocent, never murdered anybody - stuff like that?There is one other reason it shouldn't be done, and that is that it constitutes the imposition of PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas.
I understand why serious PvPers want to be able to jump casual PvEers, it's the nature of the beast, but we have to be honest and recognise that what people are asking for is simply open world PvP masquerading as some sort of a "justice" system. It wholly distorts a major aspect of the game in terms of bringing the Thieves Guild and potentially the Dark Brotherhood content into a hybrid PvE/PvP mix, and that is a mix that is proven not to work. Prudent developers will provide plenty of content for both styles of play, but not mix them together.
@Tan9oSucckaActually, you don't get it at all. It isn't that people fear open world PvP, it's that they don't want it.
Why do PvPers always assume that non-PvPers are afraid of PvP? It's simply that a lot of people play these games to co-operate with other players rather than to have conflict with them, and they don't want their questing and other adventuring activities (including the PvE elements of the Justice System in PvE areas) interrupted by PvP actions they have no interest in.
@TabbycatNo thanks.
Towns would be littered with people in hiding, waiting to gank a cheap kill.
I could see it now. Grab an item on a crafting table on accident, and like PvP in general, get cheesed by 20 people spamming crystal frags/ambush/wrecking blow.
@Giles.floydub17_ESOEven grief proof you'd still have people who would sit around in the cities all day waiting for people to commit crimes.
That would lead to increased congestion in cities.
Increased congestion would lead to lag.
More lag is bad.
Thus my answer is no because of lag.
@VorcilActually, you are assuming it can be done without grief. OP offers absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. [snip]
Edit, this thread should be locked. It will likely devolve into bashing since it lacks substance, unfortunately.
[edited for bait]
@houjo2000b16_ESONo;
I just want to enjoy my thieving alone, no reason I should have to worry about cheap templars and others spamming biting jabs and wrecking blow all day.
Just no. If you want to ruin someone's day go to IC and Cyrodiil, but keep PvE to PvE.No, it can't be grief proof unless it's completely opt in. The thieving system is great as it is without level 5s being one shot by v16s hanging out by the refuge entrances.
Now, if the system were a toggle it could work, but in that case you still run two risks. Either a- nobody wants to toggle on the criminal side, leading it to be very boring for enforcers as well as still making it so criminals face swarms at refuge gates.
Or, b- it gets lots of interest (look at open pvp zones so far and realize this won't happen, but let's pretend); in which case, already packed cities now are flooded with FFA pvp, both completely ruining the point of hub cities, not making any sense lore-wise and making them laggy nightmares.
Sure, it's nice to say 'but grief free', but that's really not something that's possible- at least in other pvp zones you scale level and you're willingly entering a pvp zone- the justice system has massive level differences and most 'participants' aren't willing. There's a reason pretty much no game has FFA pvp outside of a few niche titles. This isn't a FFA PvP niche game, it's at best a RvRvR game, and even that's limited to few areas due to lack of interest.
Since there are apparently "many reasons not to implement this and I just cannot or will not grasp the theory behind them all".
It is quite simple - those, who want to enforce law in this game, are exactly those who have the least qualification to do so. Introducing a law enforcer system would just give wolves sheep clothes that they can bring grief on others. There is no grief-proof way, simply because the wrong kind of guys for this job want to become law enforcers in this game.5 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is quite simple - those, who want to enforce law in this game, are exactly those who have the least qualification to do so. Introducing a law enforcer system would just give wolves sheep clothes that they can bring grief on others. There is no grief-proof way, simply because the wrong kind of guys for this job want to become law enforcers in this game.
This in no way reflects onto instanced heist PvP.
You haven't read a word of my suggestion, have you?0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoIt is quite simple - those, who want to enforce law in this game, are exactly those who have the least qualification to do so. Introducing a law enforcer system would just give wolves sheep clothes that they can bring grief on others. There is no grief-proof way, simply because the wrong kind of guys for this job want to become law enforcers in this game.
This in no way reflects onto instanced heist PvP.
You haven't read a word of my suggestion, have you?
I am against it - period. The wrong guys want to be law enforcers - to be a law enforcer you have to be lawful in the first place and to go against crime, you have to have a non-criminal mind in the first place - people, who love to kill are not of this kind.4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC22ZF21Llk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymXlmwY8Nw0This discussion has been closed.