Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

Lefty_Lucy

Please read this before you vote!

I'm sorry, I know there are a number of posts on the forums about this already, but there seems to be an enormous flaw in most people's arguments against (and for) the PvP portion of the Justice System. I am going to try and clear the muddy waters.

Please remember that ZOS has never given any specific details about the implementation of the Justice System's PvP content. It seems that everyone has developed assumptions about how this PvP content would have worked, and then people formed opinions about the PvP in the Justice System based on their assumptions!

This is bad, very bad. Why are we hating on the PvP portion of the Justice System without knowing exactly how it will work? How do you know you will be forced to PvP if you want to participate in the Justice System? You don't, because you can't - no one can! ZOS has never told us how it would be implemented. All we can do is speculate. Speculation may be easier for those who have played games in the past which have had Justice System PvP components.

It is my opinion that if content is added to ESO, it should not take anything away from existing content. I think this is something we can all agree on, and honestly, I think that is what everyone has been trying to say. I think we did a poor job of vocalizing this concern. I think we attacked the Justice System PvP content without a complete understanding of what it could mean for ESO, because we were just developing opinions based on assumptions.

It is also my opinion that no one would be forced to PvP if this system was implemented! As a community, we could help ZOS through their development challenges in order to prioritize a fair update that does not ostracize any one group of players based on their play-style.

I have a video here (below) which does a much more thorough job at explaining what I am trying to get at with this poll. I have tried my best to be objective and to present information in such a way which will help you be objective too. Hopefully the specifics I talk about will help you focus your thoughts when you vote in the poll.

If you vote, please comment and explain why you voted the way you did. I want to understand what you think, what your background is, and why you have the opinion that you do.

Please try to keep in mind what would be best for ESO as an MMORPG, not what may be the most fun for you as an individual!

tl;dr: https://youtu.be/6EcKbFqicGs

timidobserver

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Honestly, when I heard about the Justice System PvP portion I was willing to settle for it because it would provide an opportunity for non-zerg PvP, but I'd much prefer structured PvP(battlegrounds, arenas,ect.)

Sharee

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I must say i see the logic behind ZOS decision. Keep PvP in PvP zones, leave the rest for PvE'rs. That way there will be no confusion about whether another player can or can not attack you at any given time.

Adding another set of rules like "this is a PvE area and you are safe, UNLESS you do this and this" would most likely cause confusion with the casual players (who often get confused about much simpler matters). The potential damage outweighs the potential gains, in my opinion.

JMadFour

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

when I want to PVP, I go to Cyrodiil. in Cyrodiil I find PVPers, who are there for the same reason(s) I am. to beat each other up and take Keeps.

when I want to do PVE, I go to PVE zones. in PVE zones, I find PVErs, who are there for the same reason(s) I am. to quest, and run dungeons/delves.

PVP and PVE don't mix. I prefer to keep them seperate. I'm glad ZOS decided to continue to keep PVE and PVP seperated, instead of trying to mix it, like they tried to do with Imperial City.

I think as far as Justice System PVP goes, the multiple potential problems outweigh the one potential benefit.

chaserstorm16909

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Like you, I was also looking forward to this system. But, it's unlikely that putting lots of time and effort into this system would earn ZOS the same amount of money as pumping out additional DLCs. That may also be the reason that spell crafting has been put on the back burner.

Necrelios

Personally, I don't care about the justice system, since the moment I incur a bounty, I just logout and play some other game until it is reset. No big deal, I own a lot of other games. I can hold of for months without playing a moment of ESO if that's what it takes.

ThePonzzz

The justice system, as it currently stands, it just tedium. Like @Necrelios mentioned, it's avoidable if you take steps right away by logging out. Find something worth stealing and have a bounty? No worries just log out.

And actual items worth finding are so few and far between. If I need lockpicks and food, I can go crawling around a town for 30 minutes, but there is nothing really decent to gain. Guards being invincible was also a bad move. It makes crime fall flat.

The only hope was there to be some actual repercussions when getting caught, which was the PvP. But there is just nothing to gain stealing, especially at later levels. It can be a decent way for a newbie to earn some money though.

TheValkyn

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Yet another lie from Zenimax Online Studios. They should not make announcements since they have zero integrity.

If Justice System PvP is enabled then flag them for pvp in an inactive state and if incurring a bounty flag it with an active PvP flagged state. It's not difficult. Use some of that $1mil * that you're giving away, implement the system and show some integrity, Zenimax.

RAGUNAnoOne

How to handle battle leveling and the fact that based on the description 2 things can happen: 1 high levels can stalk low levels until they make a mistake and 2 a person or people can steal stuff on purpose to trigger PvP against everyone else and cause a massacre.

edit plus right now PvP balance is a farce that is the biggest reason

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Where is the "I don't care about Justice System and would rather have everything else fixed first" option?

Also, there's so much imbalance pvp-wise that most players would never again participate in the Justice System after the first few days, especially pve guys that get farmed by pvp players.

Sausage

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

PVP in normal zone changes too much the community imho, ESO is mainstream game and besides if you want to gank, you can do it in Cyrodil, theres dailies, what people do daily. Not to mention IC now.

I think Guards should be able to tackle Criminals and take them to Prison, or challenge them to duel. NPCs amd players could throws tomatoes at Criminal, so kind of walk of shame for Criminals, should fit to ES lore.

Necrelios

@ThePonzzz, if repercussions were actually fun and entertaining... I mean, much to my own surprise I actually did end up playing ArcheAge for a few days, and the most fun and memorable times of those were when I actually spent a minute or two in court "appealing" complaints... In fact, those were some really unique times as far as any MMO goes that I played. It was actually a lot of fun in a system like that. If something like that were rolled out... well heck... I might have to steal moar of the things!

Lylith

ThePonzzz wrote: »

The justice system, as it currently stands, it just tedium. Like @Necrelios mentioned, it's avoidable if you take steps right away by logging out. Find something worth stealing and have a bounty? No worries just log out.

And actual items worth finding are so few and far between. If I need lockpicks and food, I can go crawling around a town for 30 minutes, but there is nothing really decent to gain. Guards being invincible was also a bad move. It makes crime fall flat.

The only hope was there to be some actual repercussions when getting caught, which was the PvP. But there is just nothing to gain stealing, especially at later levels. It can be a decent way for a newbie to earn some money though.

i've stolen quite a few rare motifs as well as an imperial motif. (not to mention a significant number of blue and a few purple recipes)

theft is not an entirely a waste of time, even at higher levels.

ita agree with your statements about guards, however. i can usually get away (outside), but they should NOT be invincible.

Samadhi

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Was in the process of patching the game after roughly a half-year hiatus.

Saw the road ahead; saw that ZOS still does not care about their PvP community; canceled my download.

For a long time, PvP was the only thing that kept me active in the community. It took a pretty consistent nosedive in the wake of the lighting patch and issues with AoE caps, but ZOS never tackle things.

To this day, it is the only thing I really want back -- replaying Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim then tackling Fallout 4 provided more interesting PvE encounters than ESO ever did, but PvP is the part of the MMO world that cannot be replaced with AI.

Justice System had the opportunity to breathe new life into this game. It was going to offer a really nice juxtaposition of role-playing and PvP in my favourite gaming universe.

My well wishes go out to everyone who continues to deal with being treated as an unimportant player by ZOS.

Lefty_Lucy

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Samadhi wrote: »

Was in the process of patching the game after roughly a half-year hiatus.

Saw the road ahead; saw that ZOS still does not care about their PvP community; canceled my download.

For a long time, PvP was the only thing that kept me active in the community. It took a pretty consistent nosedive in the wake of the lighting patch and issues with AoE caps, but ZOS never tackle things.

To this day, it is the only thing I really want back -- replaying Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim then tackling Fallout 4 provided more interesting PvE encounters than ESO ever did, but PvP is the part of the MMO world that cannot be replaced with AI.

Justice System had the opportunity to breathe new life into this game. It was going to offer a really nice juxtaposition of role-playing and PvP in my favourite gaming universe.

My well wishes go out to everyone who continues to deal with being treated as an unimportant player by ZOS.

Wow.. That struck home man.

This sucks.

RAGUNAnoOne

Lylith wrote: »

show previous quotes

ThePonzzz wrote: »

The justice system, as it currently stands, it just tedium. Like @Necrelios mentioned, it's avoidable if you take steps right away by logging out. Find something worth stealing and have a bounty? No worries just log out.

And actual items worth finding are so few and far between. If I need lockpicks and food, I can go crawling around a town for 30 minutes, but there is nothing really decent to gain. Guards being invincible was also a bad move. It makes crime fall flat.

The only hope was there to be some actual repercussions when getting caught, which was the PvP. But there is just nothing to gain stealing, especially at later levels. It can be a decent way for a newbie to earn some money though.

i've stolen quite a few rare motifs as well as an imperial motif. (not to mention a significant number of blue and a few purple recipes)

theft is not an entirely a waste of time, even at higher levels.

ita agree with your statements about guards, however. i can usually get away (outside), but they should NOT be invincible.

They should at least let you open doors heck even if you have to play an animation at least let us OPEN THE DAMN DOORS! that is such a BS mechanic especially if a guard is lingering around that object 24-7 when you find a rare motif I literally had to grab it and commit the biggest ESO sin, using an item from the menu while in combat because I knew I could not get out if I tried...

Necrelios

It also might be worth mentioning, that as far as GUARDS are concerned in ESO... you can just pop an Immovability potion and they can't stop you from running away. This is actually where the shinny point for the Alchemy skill really shines. Those extra points in alchemy seem to pay off here, giving you a few extra seconds of running away time. You can actually combine immovability, with invisibility, and as long as you avoid 6 seconds of damage, you can escape pretty much any justice situation, including bank doors, etc.

It's all pretty clever, really, if you put points into your more crime oriented passives and CP's. As the system currently stands, if they were to introduce a PvP justice system, it might only effect either the very worst thieves or newer players. I think that in itself would be bad. They would need to come up with some really awesome court system to counterweigh this. Those stocks are a good start. Now if we could only throw rotten foodstuffs at them....

Malanor

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Honestly, i have no clue how that kind of pvp should work on paper. But i realy like to see any kind of pvp but Cyrodiil. So it comes to ZOS who refused to do any attempt of designing it.

PS it is realy painfull that the game with so much potential focused on PVE for 2 years, living pissed of pvpers with full of lags and zergs Cyro and mostly dead IC.

dem0n1k

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I thought the initial idea of PVP enforcers was (& is) really cool. As Lefty has stated, it allows for much more variety in the types of PVP encounters. I think it really could work if it was kept away from the PVE starter zones... maybe even just in the finisher zones of The Rift, Reapers March & Bangkorai. Then players in those zones would surely be experienced enough to know what was going on when they saw PVP combat going on in a PVE zone. They could limit the amount of combat in towns & trade zones by allowing the guard NPCs to help on the side of the law.. hopefully that would push combat out where the NPCs don't roam.

Perhaps in the outlaw refuges you could have NPCs that fought on the opposite side of the law Anyways.. I am relatively new to this idea & these concepts have probably already been discussed.

Itoq

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Nearly twenty years ago UO had a basic justice system.

So much for progress and pushing to be better than what was before?

JD2013

To do this, they would have pretty much had to disable most abilities.

Imagine using AOE abilities in a packed city. With loads of killable NPC's around. That would have turned into an absolute horror show.

People complained bitterly about not being able to AOE heal in cities if they accidentally healed a criminal, they got a bounty too. This would have been so much worse.

StoneSlayer

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I am definitely in favor of a PVP justice System. I have been hyped for Black Deserts PVP elements ever since ESO PVP started to go to ***. I am really interested to see how Black Desert EU/NA PVP will turn out. Well enough about Black Desert, Cyrodiil is just cancer for me at the moment, there is no place for me as a small scale PVP:er except the empty IC and Duelling Guilds. I also have a lot of personal issues i have with Cyrodiil, And I believe I am not the only one having these issues... Lag, Lotus Fun (Pun intended, I'll show myself out), AOE caps, zergs, framerate issues, ult generation, Unbreakable cc's, resource management being a joke, the list could go on for days...

It feels like ZOS has yet again... Let us down.

Knootewoot

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I played it in ArcheAge (and was sent to prison once for 18 hours real life time lol) and it was great. Eventually I ended up a pirate because I PK'ed and destroyed crops of unprotected lands. Yes, a pirates live for me.

Soon I play Black Desert Online. The Karma system will have people think twice to become a criminal but I will become one. It is one of the best features of an open world PvP game.

I was looking forward to it in TESO. Only a criminal could get a bounty so there would be no ganking of law-abiding citizens. I see no problems. For me this game no longer has a future. I have seen no improvements over the last year, only unnecessary nerfs and worse performance. It's time to to move on.

Knootewoot

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

JD2013 wrote: »

To do this, they would have pretty much had to disable most abilities.

Imagine using AOE abilities in a packed city. With loads of killable NPC's around. That would have turned into an absolute horror show.

People complained bitterly about not being able to AOE heal in cities if they accidentally healed a criminal, they got a bounty too. This would have been so much worse.

If you use AOE abilities now in a town, the killable citizens don't get hurt. Only if you target them with single attacks.

So if you would attack another player because he had a bounty and you use AOE attack, I doubt you would hit citizens then. Also I think there was an option in settings where you could disable to hurt citizen NPC's.

petraeus1

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Having played cops and robbers endlessly in primary school (XD), I felt like this was an innovative system that could add a lot of replayability - a new way of PvP with a new dynamic. I can imagine all the problems it may bring. Heck, I think most of us can imagine and can make a list in like 15 minutes. Which is why it surprised me that ZOS decided to cut it, seemingly so late in its development.

I personally was in favour of a dedicated zone for this system, similar to IC with its Tel Var stones. Leave vanilla zones intact, build a new zone (I imagined it to be Abah's Landing/Kvatch+Anvil) around the concept of Justice PvP. High risk, high reward heists. Randomized grand prizes for thieves, high value murder targets, in a zone with a lot of verticality, corridors, secret passages, small safe zones, and: player guards. (The amount of player guards would determine the rewards for the baddies of course).

There was never a reason to force this down everyone's throat. And for all the possible difficulties, I believe it could've been pulled off with dedicated zone design. It would be something new in a rather predictable (though great and lovely) MMORPG.

Joy_Division

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Hi Lefty!

I agree with you that the reasoning based on lack of knowledge or those who just don't want to see PvP around them are silly.

My reasoning is mostly practical.

Much of it comes down to what seems to be little resources and manpower ZoS has available to them.

• We went almost a year without any new content
• From what I understand, consoles are 2 patches behind PC
• The last end-game Trial was released was September 2014 ... that's two Christmases ago and another 3 months an top of that.
• Most of my the people I raided with in PvE have long since left.
• ZoS won't implement bug-fixes and just plain broken stuff that they themselves admitted is a problem in incremental patches because they claim it is too inefficient to do so. This screams they are working on a skeleton crew.
• Class balance once a year? That's a joke. Also a red flag that tells me ZoS is stretched thin.
• Bug fixes? Where are they? Willow's path, molten weapons not working with channeled attacks, half the templar's skills, I get locked of input commands on my character every 20 minutes in Maelstrom friends, fall damage, Valkyn Skoria, infinite combat preventing mounting up, all of this stuff has been with for months if not years.
• Can you tell me one thing about the map of Cyrodiil that has changed since launched excepting the 3 sewer entrances?

I'm not saying all of these things are more important that a PvP Justice system (but most of them are). I am saying all of these tells me that ZoS has to pick and choose what to work on. This is why Spellcrafting is also out.

So it basically comes down to would I rather have a new Trial and I'd rather not go another year playing a overnerfed class the next time they mess up class balance than occasionally playing cops and robbers. Sorry, I love PvP and do it just about every night, but those are my priorities.

Some other things to consider:

I agree with your sentiment that implementing an "opt-in" system that would not have deprived customers of the content or prevented "griefing" would not have been difficult and we could have trusted Zenimax to do this reasonably well.

However, I think you are underestimating the difficulty in making the PvP component exactly what you are saying, a in-depth and interesting system that adds substance to the Tamriel Zenimax has created. I mean, they could have simply made it so if you attack X NPC, you are flagged for Cops and Robbers and go at it in the streets of Glenumbra using your abilities; in essence dueling. But they and it sounds like you want more than that; risk-reward, profit, new skills/abilities, crime syndicates, meaningful justiciers, etc. Fighting a NB is already a nightmare in the IC, now we want Zenimax to add and test new skills for criminals and law-enforcers on top of making sure criminals dont destroy the economy with too easily ill gotten gains? That's putting a lot of faith into Zenimax - much more than I have when we look at what they gave us in 1.6 and the subsequent "fix" for IC. I'd rather them devote resources elsewhere.

You also kept saying that the ESO community could help Zenimax implement this right. Yes, they could. But what gives you the impression that Zenimax works in such a way? They do NOT consult us in their development, have a history of implementing stuff/changes that nobody has ever asked for (and not even putting it in the patch notes), and they only make superficial revisions during the PTS process. I mean, 87% of us despise AOE caps from the very beginning and yet they are still there! I have zero faith whatsoever about any potential meaningful collaboration between ZoS and the community that might make a PvP justice system as interesting as you think it could be.

Finally, I'm pretty sure this explains ZoS sudden and dramatic reversal on the topics of dueling and arenas. We are getting these because we aren't getting PvP justice system. They don't have the resources to give us both. These are easier to do and make interesting because they do not need to develop a whole new system to incorporate into small-scale PvP, which is likely the reason they went this route. Given a choice, I'd rather Zenimax make decent PvP instanced environments - something I do think they can competently.

TL;DR - I'm not philosophically against a PvP justice system. It's that I'd rather ZoS devote its (likely scarce) resources elsewhere and I think they would do a better job spending less manpower giving us battlegrounds/arena for small scale PvP than devoting more into trying to create an entire new system that will see lots of balance complaints on the forums.

RVikary

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Since right now I do not have much time to discuss, I'll only say this.

I'm not a PVPer. My time in Cyrodiil is used running quest hubs, dolmens and skyshards. Hopefully one day I'll do delve runs too. All of that with my guild. They are guild events used for a group of people to familiarize themselves with Cyrodiil, get some exp and the like and also to enjoy doing something a bit different with the guild.

When I tried PVP I failed miserably. My laptop can't handle big battles and alone I have no experience against someone with more experience, which would be obvious anyway. I've never been to the imperial city, but I do plan on trying it soon, since I know there are interesting quests there that are supposed to continue progressing the story from the main quest line.

Still, I believe we should have Justice System PVP. As Lefty said on his video, if you don't want to be in, you'd be given that option. If you want, you choose it. If you commit a crime, other justice PVPers can attack you. If you don't, you're still safe. If you see someone committing crimes, you can attack or ignore it, your choice.

Why would that be a bad thing? In my opinion it would be more immersive. I don't like crimes, so if I wanted to help protect my faction from the acts of criminal players and earn some gold and exp, I should be able to. If I want to commit a crime and not be flagged for PVP, I should be able to. If I want to be flagged for PVP, I also should be able to.

That's it. Bye bye.

Anhedonie

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I often lag in towns and get spontaneous loading screens jumping on me out of nowhere.
Justice system would be just an annoyance in a situation like that.

PS my rig is fine, so it's up to ZOS to fix stuff like that, but I don't really think they are capable of doing so.

Julianos

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Im againts everything till they fix pvp lag and low performance issues in cyrodiil. I only support small scale pvp right now. Otherwise i wont play this untill we get lag free and smooth pvp.

Also i played Ultima Online and it had pvp justice system in towns and it was so fun.

Campana

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I played (briefly) Age of Wushu which had a justice system. I also played Mortal Online which had an Ultima Online style player flagging system.

I already posted this in another thread and think it would be possible to have a Justice System that did not force non-consensual PvP if ZOS added it as a daily Event.

The Event could be restricted to a certain time/area where players who wanted to catch criminals would sign up to be player guards and would be able to catch player thieves in the act.

Hopefully delightful mayhem would ensue.

The point of playing MMOs is to interact with other players - as allies, competitors, enemies, traders, soldiers etc. By adding community events based on a Justice System ZOS would promote this style of emergent, interactive play.

Sevalaricgirl

ZOS has done the right thing. PvP does not belong in PvE areas. PvP in the justice system means that those who don't want to PvP won't be able to participate in the justice system. We're talking about ZOS. There is no way they can separate a PvP justice system and a PvE justice system.