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Official Feedback Thread for Prioritization of Combat Animations

  • altemriel
    altemriel
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    beerninja wrote: »
    Mods please rename this thread to bhlegit's
    altemriel wrote: »
    I totally am against getting rid of animation cancelling. why do you want it to be removed from the game?

    If a samurai or some elite warrior in real life was so fast and swift, his hits and movement was so fast you could not even realize and you was dead, so why the heck should animation cancelling be dropped from the game. I just do not get your point people!

    AC is a skill and it should stay in the game for sure!!

    This is Elder Scrolls, not Dragon Ball Z. Sometimes I wish website age gates actually worked...

    Dude, no offence, but I am 35 years old, so you are wrong with that argument. But anyway, I understand, that people with disabilities (who really can not move their fingers so fast) can have problems when people use AC and they are simply not able to use AC. But people with no disabilities, it is not so hard to re-wire the brain and learn to AC. It is not that hard. You simply do not press light attack, (pause), heavy attack, (pause), skill, (pause), skill, but you learn to do it another way: light attack - skill, heavy attack - skill, skill-weapon swap and so on, in about the pace of a heart beat (I mean the speed how you press the buttons after each other). So my point is valid, it is a skill, a skill to press the buttons fast and in a certain order and pace. nothing more. So I do not see any reason why this should be removed from the game.
    Yes, you do not see the attack comming, but you still can react, if you are fast enough, dodge roll or block, or counter-attack, that is all.




    Cryhavoc wrote: »
    This might be derailing the issue, but has anyone ever compiled a list of skills that can or cannot be animation cancelled, by class or skill line?

    I think you will find that some classes may benefit more from AC than others.

    As far as I know, all of the skills can be animation cancelled. there are no skills, that can not be animation cancelled.
    Edited by altemriel on February 12, 2016 8:03PM
  • acw37162
    acw37162
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    Of all the things in this patch not to like this is right at the top of the list.

    It's amazing there is only six pages on this topic.

    A day after this hits this hits live servers you will have a 30 % plus loss on logins the following day.

    You might be able to have a pretty good debate about long term game health versus short term health but this will go over like a lead brick on live.

    Whole podcast today and if this was mentioned once it was just briefly and I can't recall it.

    This is a massive change and touches a very core reason most people play ESO.

    Roll this back #savejackdanielseso
  • xylena
    xylena
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    executioner still deals its damage before the weapon actually swings... when it's the KB the dead player will be on the ground before the weapon swings
    Retired until we break the Tank Meta
  • bhlegit
    bhlegit
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    acw37162 wrote: »
    Of all the things in this patch not to like this is right at the top of the list.

    It's amazing there is only six pages on this topic.

    A day after this hits this hits live servers you will have a 30 % plus loss on logins the following day.

    You might be able to have a pretty good debate about long term game health versus short term health but this will go over like a lead brick on live.

    Whole podcast today and if this was mentioned once it was just briefly and I can't recall it.

    This is a massive change and touches a very core reason most people play ESO.

    Roll this back #savejackdanielseso

    I agree wholeheartedly with this post. There are just a lot of people who dont understand the change right now and think it wont affect ac much. This change completely changes the 'feel' of the game contrary to your own guidelines.

    What you have to understand is as a magicka dd using staff you are doing light attack (crushing shock -insert skill here) block, that is the weaving rotation, not just light attack skill. So from our perspective it is still gimped.

    I say again YOU CANNOT block cancel, this is a lot more detrimental to the whole game and many players' play styles than you guys seem to think! I guarantee after it goes live , like 'acw371...' said above me, you will have so many less logins everyone will quit because of this change. it affects both PVE and PVP greatly.

    ROLL BACK THE POINTLESS CHANGE #FREEAC
  • bhlegit
    bhlegit
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    There you go here's the money answer:

    "...when interrupting an instant ability with block, the actual act of blocking should happen as soon as you activate it, the only difference is that the blocking *animation* (not the block itself) will be queued for that fraction of a second until the ability reaches its impact/launch frame."

    It makes absolutely no sense. the block should happen when we press block. It may sound nice but in practice it doesn't work, it ends up feeling like a micro second of delay (which in turn feels like palying in 300 ping). If you want to block an enemies attack then yeah it will work because that small delay will be over before the attack reaches you allowing you to block it. But when block casting or weaving you are not actually blocking you are pressing block for a fraction of a second, so in practice what happens is character does not block unless you hold block or press it twice (thereby eliminating block cancelling from the game) - this goes against your own outlined guidelines, not to change the feel of the combat. Which, after all is the main reason most continue to play this game. if you want primitive combat that consists of just pressing abilities - go back to wow.

    It is clear that we are not going to win, this is a lobby we cannot beat. It seems the developers of this game are intent on making changes only to appease those who cry nerf on the forum - Meteor, monster helms, alliance rank, ac, streak, dodgeroll, emp buff, seige dmg, nb, shields, the list could go on ALL OF THESE THINGS HAVE A COUNTER - the issue is clear - L2P. But none of that matters now the game is done.




    Edited by bhlegit on February 13, 2016 9:06PM
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    bhlegit wrote: »
    It makes absolutely no sense. the block should happen when we press block.
    when interrupting an instant ability with block, the actual act of blocking should happen as soon as you activate it

    Ed specifically says that it does. Are you saying that it doesn't?
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Zedh
    Zedh
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    There seems to be an issue with auto attack projectiles not firing off during medium attack weaving on the pts.



    When medium attack weaving force pulse with a destro staff at a fairly consistent pace, exactly every second medium attack fires off no projectiles, thus dealing 0 damage although the entire animation showed.

    I also tried medium attack weaving other skills. With skills other than force pulse, the medium attack success rate was even lower. When weaving at a constistent pace I managed to prevent every single medium attack projectile from ever showing up, for example by weaving harness magicka or vampires bane.
    Edited by Zedh on February 13, 2016 10:43PM
    Main: Hamrami, AD Magplar
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    Pet: Fennec, V16 AD
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    bhlegit wrote: »
    There you go here's the money answer:

    "...when interrupting an instant ability with block, the actual act of blocking should happen as soon as you activate it, the only difference is that the blocking *animation* (not the block itself) will be queued for that fraction of a second until the ability reaches its impact/launch frame."

    It makes absolutely no sense. the block should happen when we press block. It may sound nice but in practice it doesn't work, it ends up feeling like a micro second of delay (which in turn feels like palying in 300 ping). If you want to block an enemies attack then yeah it will work because that small delay will be over before the attack reaches you allowing you to block it. But when block casting or weaving you are not actually blocking you are pressing block for a fraction of a second, so in practice what happens is character does not block unless you hold block or press it twice (thereby eliminating block cancelling from the game) - this goes against your own outlined guidelines, not to change the feel of the combat. Which, after all is the main reason most continue to play this game. if you want primitive combat that consists of just pressing abilities - go back to wow.

    It is clear that we are not going to win, this is a lobby we cannot beat. It seems the developers of this game are intent on making changes only to appease those who cry nerf on the forum - Meteor, monster helms, alliance rank, ac, streak, dodgeroll, emp buff, seige dmg, nb, shields, the list could go on ALL OF THESE THINGS HAVE A COUNTER - the issue is clear - L2P. But none of that matters now the game is done.




    If your "feel of the combat" depends on being able to clip away a certain animation, then obviously the developer's guidelines for this change aren't applicable to it, as the whole purpose is to display animations and/or parts thereof that could previously be cancelled completely.

    Regarding block cancelling, it actually didn't work as described by ZOS on PTS last time I tested it. Since the devs requested actual rotations, here you go: If I use Harness Magicka on myself, then block a regular physical attack from a NPC, CLS will return a blocked hit with reduced damage. However, if I cast Harness Magicka right before the NPC hits me, then press the block button while still in the Harness Magicka animation, I will take the full damage and the hit will not be registered as blocked by CLS. As I understand it, it's right that I don't see the blocking animation just when I press block, but I should still block the hit and take reduced damage.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Frawr
    Frawr
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    I must agree with the previous posters, especially @Tillalarrien

    These changes make the game feel delayed and sluggish.

    In addition, they are indeed showing the full animation of an instant ability (which a player cannot react to) at the expense of the 2nd, wind - up ability, which the player currently can react to in live and cannot react to in pts.

    In suary, these changes make combat less responsive and less reactive. They have a very negative impact on visual cues.

    These changes make it more difficult to react in pvp.


    If you want to allow animation cancelling then I suggest the following:

    1, time all damage to coincide with the animation of the strike. This I an internal cool down on everything.

    2. Allow any skill to be cancelled before the strike with roll/block/bash/swap weapons etc.

    Now. If a player rolls/switches weapon/blocks/interrupts etc before the strike happens then the damage should not land.

    This will create the reactive fluid combat that we and you want but prevent players from concealing damage.

    Please so not go live with the current iteration of animation prioritisation. It has a very negative impact on game play.

    Edited by Frawr on February 15, 2016 12:24PM
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Frawr wrote: »
    I must agree with the previous posters, especially @Tillalarrien

    These changes make the game feel delayed and sluggish.

    In addition, they are indeed showing the full animation of an instant ability (which a player cannot react to) at the expense of the 2nd, wind - up ability, which the player currently can react to in live and cannot react to in pts.

    In suary, these changes make combat less responsive and less reactive. They have a very negative impact on visual cues.

    These changes make it more difficult to react in pvp.


    If you want to allow animation cancelling then I suggest the following:

    1, time all damage to coincide with the animation of the strike. This I an internal cool down on everything.

    2. Allow any skill to be cancelled before the strike with roll/block/bash/swap weapons etc.

    Now. If a player rolls/switches weapon/blocks/interrupts etc before the strike happens then the damage should not land.

    This will create the reactive fluid combat that we and you want but prevent players from concealing damage.

    Please so not go live with the current iteration of animation prioritisation. It has a very negative impact on game play.

    Not quite sure what your suggestion is, but from the interpretations I have it's bad either way:
    If only damage skills don't go off when cancelled we'll have a very arbitrary line and cut into build diversity, not to speak of the way projectiles are handled under this concept. However, if the same rules apply to all skills, for example Purge didn't purge anything if I cancelled it with a Dodge Roll, it would be the de facto abolishment of animation cancelling.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Frawr
    Frawr
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    Frawr wrote: »
    I must agree with the previous posters, especially @Tillalarrien

    These changes make the game feel delayed and sluggish.

    In addition, they are indeed showing the full animation of an instant ability (which a player cannot react to) at the expense of the 2nd, wind - up ability, which the player currently can react to in live and cannot react to in pts.

    In suary, these changes make combat less responsive and less reactive. They have a very negative impact on visual cues.

    These changes make it more difficult to react in pvp.


    If you want to allow animation cancelling then I suggest the following:

    1, time all damage to coincide with the animation of the strike. This I an internal cool down on everything.

    2. Allow any skill to be cancelled before the strike with roll/block/bash/swap weapons etc.

    Now. If a player rolls/switches weapon/blocks/interrupts etc before the strike happens then the damage should not land.

    This will create the reactive fluid combat that we and you want but prevent players from concealing damage.

    Please so not go live with the current iteration of animation prioritisation. It has a very negative impact on game play.

    Not quite sure what your suggestion is, but from the interpretations I have it's bad either way:
    If only damage skills don't go off when cancelled we'll have a very arbitrary line and cut into build diversity, not to speak of the way projectiles are handled under this concept. However, if the same rules apply to all skills, for example Purge didn't purge anything if I cancelled it with a Dodge Roll, it would be the de facto abolishment of animation cancelling.

    Im responding on my phone hence I didn't detail my idea for every skill.

    The premise of my suggestion is to match animations with actual triggers of skills to improve responsiveness hence I gave the example of sword swinging.

    Consider rapid manoeuvre. You only get the buff after your hands go up. If you cancel in first half second then no buff. This same principle could apply to every skill.

    Remember, they could change animations of any skill to be faster or slower. It is the ting of the visual cue to the skill output that is what matters.

  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Frawr wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Frawr wrote: »
    I must agree with the previous posters, especially @Tillalarrien

    These changes make the game feel delayed and sluggish.

    In addition, they are indeed showing the full animation of an instant ability (which a player cannot react to) at the expense of the 2nd, wind - up ability, which the player currently can react to in live and cannot react to in pts.

    In suary, these changes make combat less responsive and less reactive. They have a very negative impact on visual cues.

    These changes make it more difficult to react in pvp.


    If you want to allow animation cancelling then I suggest the following:

    1, time all damage to coincide with the animation of the strike. This I an internal cool down on everything.

    2. Allow any skill to be cancelled before the strike with roll/block/bash/swap weapons etc.

    Now. If a player rolls/switches weapon/blocks/interrupts etc before the strike happens then the damage should not land.

    This will create the reactive fluid combat that we and you want but prevent players from concealing damage.

    Please so not go live with the current iteration of animation prioritisation. It has a very negative impact on game play.

    Not quite sure what your suggestion is, but from the interpretations I have it's bad either way:
    If only damage skills don't go off when cancelled we'll have a very arbitrary line and cut into build diversity, not to speak of the way projectiles are handled under this concept. However, if the same rules apply to all skills, for example Purge didn't purge anything if I cancelled it with a Dodge Roll, it would be the de facto abolishment of animation cancelling.

    Im responding on my phone hence I didn't detail my idea for every skill.

    The premise of my suggestion is to match animations with actual triggers of skills to improve responsiveness hence I gave the example of sword swinging.

    Consider rapid manoeuvre. You only get the buff after your hands go up. If you cancel in first half second then no buff. This same principle could apply to every skill.

    Remember, they could change animations of any skill to be faster or slower. It is the ting of the visual cue to the skill output that is what matters.

    Okay, I think I understand what you mean now. I don't like how Rapid works, I think a skill should take effect when it consumes resources. And looking at most other skills, that's what happens, when cancelled too early they will not take effect but won't cost resources either.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • RobbaYaga
    RobbaYaga
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    I like the idea of this change, but after talking to a lot of people and reading this thread, it's not seeming great now.

    Alternative suggestions:

    Option #1: Just get rid of animation cancelling. Simplify life. Perhaps allow people to cancel into a defensive skill, (i.e. I stop my attack/skill to block or roll instead and so no effect of the original happens.) but otherwise, make people play the game. If they choose an ability that has a 2 second wind up, make them spend two seconds in combat living with that choice.

    Option #2: In this world of magic and impossible things, take animation cancelling and make it an ability that must be purchased. Perhaps something that allows someone to "chain" two abilities together and those two can benefit from animation cancelling when used together.

    Option #3: Create a new skill X that reduces the "casting time" of other skill Y and eliminate and again eliminate AC.

    Option #4: Give AC to all the NPCs and have an in-game tutorial on how to do AC. This being my first MMO, I played this game for months before someone made be understand why setting foot in Cyrodiil was a <1 second death sentence.

    I still vote for option #1. I bet a fair number of the complaints that "Class X is overpowered" disappear with AC or at least they'll be easier to evaluate and balance.
    Dragon kings, dying queens; where is salvation now?
  • Ffolks
    Ffolks
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    RobbaYaga wrote: »
    Option #1: Just get rid of animation cancelling. Simplify life. Perhaps allow people to cancel into a defensive skill, (i.e. I stop my attack/skill to block or roll instead and so no effect of the original happens.) but otherwise, make people play the game. If they choose an ability that has a 2 second wind up, make them spend two seconds in combat living with that choice.

    This is the way it should be. It's how people expect the game to function. It would make the game so much easier for them to balance in PvE and PvP as well.

  • Frawr
    Frawr
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    Ffolks wrote: »
    RobbaYaga wrote: »
    Option #1: Just get rid of animation cancelling. Simplify life. Perhaps allow people to cancel into a defensive skill, (i.e. I stop my attack/skill to block or roll instead and so no effect of the original happens.) but otherwise, make people play the game. If they choose an ability that has a 2 second wind up, make them spend two seconds in combat living with that choice.

    This is the way it should be. It's how people expect the game to function. It would make the game so much easier for them to balance in PvE and PvP as well.
    @Ffolks @RobbaYaga

    This isn't quite how it should be. The reactive nature of the game requires that you be able to dodge/block/swap weapons instantly (to 'react'). The key is that activating one of these abilities should stop the damage from happening if, and only if the animation has not yet STRUCK the enemy. Timing the animations to the damage would make the game much more responsive.

    This current version on PTS, quoting @ZOS_EdLynch does not actually make the game responsive. It does the opposite:
    when interrupting an instant ability with block, the actual act of blocking should happen as soon as you activate it, the only difference is that the blocking *animation* (not the block itself) will be queued for that fraction of a second until the ability reaches its impact/launch frame.

    This design makes the blocking feel as though the game lagged. It reduces the responsive nature of the game.

    it makes it less fun.

    @ZOS_EdLynch the PTS animations allow us to conceal a wrecking blow inside a gap-closer. This is far far worse than currently on live.

    Please ZOS, please do not sacrifice game play for 'looks cool'. it is not good.
  • pmn100b16_ESO
    pmn100b16_ESO
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    ...but because that semi-charged heavy attack still happens, we briefly show a part of that attack (on average, about 250-350ms) then switch to showing that second ability already in progress. Similarly, when interrupting an instant ability with block, the actual act of blocking should happen as soon as you activate it, the only difference is that the blocking *animation* (not the block itself) will be queued for that fraction of a second until the ability reaches its impact/launch frame...

    So basically you've made it look like we're playing with a 300ms ping? :/
    v16 NB,DK,Sorc
  • MrTarkanian48
    MrTarkanian48
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    @ZOS_EdLynch

    Another vote for NOT changing animations.

    The WB charge during a gap closer is a deal breaker.

    Also it just makes me wonder how many other glitches this may open up that people will find and exploit (similar to camo hunter issues, axe bleed issues, reverberating bash issues).

    We are still living with some of these issues, and some are FINALLY about to be resolved. Don't open the game up to a whole new set of problems.

    The game is great, but has many issues that need to be addressed. Animation Cancelling/Animation priority should be placed at the very bottom of the list. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.





    Wood Elf Stam NB (PVP)
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    EP - PS4
  • nagarjunna
    nagarjunna
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    @ZOS_EdLynch

    The game is great, but has many issues that need to be addressed. Animation Cancelling/Animation priority should be placed at the very bottom of the list. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Amen, Brother!
    @nagarjunna- PC / NA / AD / DC
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  • nagarjunna
    nagarjunna
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    iosis13 wrote: »
    ROLLBACK THE POINTLESS CHANGE.

    I do wish they would roll it back.

    @Wrobel is not for turning, this will most likely go in and then they will be amused by the number of players who leave the game!

    @nagarjunna- PC / NA / AD / DC
    Zazarakel - Max CP Magicka Templar
    Tartys - Max CP Stamina Nightblade
    Temelechus - Max CP Magicka Sorcerer
    Assaku - Max CP Stamina DragonKnight
    Truthforge - Sub 50 Stamina Templar
    Yang Wudi Sub 50 Stamina Sorceror [DC]
    Shou Chung Sub 50 Magicka DragonKnight
    Chen Tuan Sun 50 Magicka Nightblade
  • CtrlAltDlt
    CtrlAltDlt
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    iosis13 wrote: »
    ROLLBACK THE POINTLESS CHANGE.

    100% agreed. They succumbed to the whiners like 90% of the time.
    PC NA - jeazzy

    stamblade outnumbered pvp vol 1. youtu.be/h1ONYfpAJJ8
    Stamblade outbumbered pvp vol 2. No cheese youtu.be/rN4_aRVMvWw
  • Jura23
    Jura23
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    CtrlAltDlt wrote: »
    iosis13 wrote: »
    ROLLBACK THE POINTLESS CHANGE.

    100% agreed. They succumbed to the whiners like 90% of the time.

    Thats not the main problem. Main problem is - their goal to make it easier to react to skills ppl are doing was not achieved. In some cases the opposite thing happened. Its way harder to react to enemy actions. Thats why this change is wrong.
    Edited by Jura23 on February 16, 2016 7:05PM
    Georgion - Bosmer/Templar - PC/EU
  • ZOS_EdLynch
    ZOS_EdLynch
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    Xeven wrote: »
    There has been some great feedback in here. One of the abilities specifically called out was Dawnbreaker and we've made some changes to greatly improve its responsiveness. We hope to have those changes on one of the next incremental PTS patches.

    I'd also like to clarify again that weaving should work the same as it always has. If you interrupt a heavy attack with an instant ability, you will still cast that ability instantly - but because that semi-charged heavy attack still happens, we briefly show a part of that attack (on average, about 250-350ms) then switch to showing that second ability already in progress. Similarly, when interrupting an instant ability with block, the actual act of blocking should happen as soon as you activate it, the only difference is that the blocking *animation* (not the block itself) will be queued for that fraction of a second until the ability reaches its impact/launch frame. That frame on the Dawnbreaker ability was determined to happen far too late, which negatively impacted the perceived response time.

    If you find it to be the case that abilities are truly delayed from starting because of an animation in progress in a way that doesn't currently happen on the live megaservers, please give us detailed information about that specific rotation so that we can replicate it here and make any corrections necessary. I should also note that this visual change is systemic and should not affect any class or weapon type more or less than any other. Please report specific discrepancies so that we can investigate.

    In short, you should still be able to weave as you always have, only you will not be able to completely obscure one ability in favor of another when both are successful. If you find the actual mechanics of your rotations have changed, please let us know exactly which rotation (skill, morphs, weapon-type) is behaving differently for you.

    @ZOS_EdLynch

    On the PTS you can charge up Wrecking Blow (and many other abilities) while gap closing, resulting in instantly hitting the target with two abilities and a CC while they're snared 60%!

    You can also charge up a heavy attack inside the animation of Wrecking Blow, also resulting in instantly hitting the target with two abilities and a CC.

    These kinds of tactics are rampant in PvP. Is this intended?

    We've been testing this internally and cannot replicate the issue with Uppercut, Wrecking Blow, Critical Charge, Focused Charge, or Streak. Can you tell us exactly how you are accomplishing that?
    Ed Lynch
    Lead Animator
    ZeniMax Online Studios
    Staff Post
  • acw37162
    acw37162
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    I am going on record;

    This is a thermonuclear explosion with a countdown clock set to go off three separate times.

    PC Drop
    XBoX Drop
    PS4 Drop

    When you have meetings about what happened why login's are down, subs are down, and crown store sales are down do not say you were not warned and it snot because of some other game release.

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