Official Feedback Thread for Prioritization of Combat Animations

Laranoye

Frawr wrote: »

I agree that animation - cancelling should exist.

I believe that the damage of skills should be timed to land as the swing/cast animation visually lands.

If an animation is cut short, to block or dodge, then no damage should fire.

Ultimately, we should lose dps.

We should be able to physically cancel anything but the damage should not fire if cancelled before the visual animation strikes.

Simples.

Someone that understands what i'm saying.

Enodoc

Laranoye wrote: »

If the is no animation there should be no damage!

I don't usually QFT, but when I do, it's to repeat the glaringly obvious

This is the most logical post I have seen with regards to animation cancelling. If the damage doesn't hit visually, then the damage shouldn't hit at all. I think that's what's happening with this change, so this change is all good for me (even if it takes a bit of getting used to).

Mulcibur

Laranoye wrote: »

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rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

I just dont understand, AT ALL, why? WHY? WHYYYY?

You know how the macro abusers claim it doesn't work and it is no advantage and all that?

They are lying.

Otherwise why is ZOS forced to go through with a redo of animation system?

This...

And I'm not quite sure how many times this should be said.... AC should not exist fullstop.
(ok a bit extreme, It should exist but not in the way that you all want it too..)

If the is no animation there should be no damage!

Only way i can explain it is, in real life if i had a bat and swung it at someone but then stopped, it still caves their face in... Not sure how to explain it any other way...

Someone else stated also that this is a real time combat game, AC has absolutely no place.. It's an unfair advantage and only creates the combat of whoever hits first..

People are in denial if they think this ISNT an exploit.. Even Zos said as much not in so many words.. why the hell do you think they are trying to fix it?

OH YEAH coz it aint working as INTENTED...

Grow a pair, fight properly, stop being in denial and whining about exploits ( oh sorry you think its working as intended because it benefits unfair elitist pvpers lol)

You know every other game in existence works fine without AC why do you people need it so much here?.. Oh yeah! More pew pew in 1 second...

*Prepares for the Burrrrnnnnnnn*

Again. I don't care if it is removed completely. Just don't remove it in this half-arsed way. Do it properly or don't do it at all.

DschiPeunt

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

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Stigant wrote: »

I just dont understand, AT ALL, why? WHY? WHYYYY?

You know how the macro abusers claim it doesn't work and it is no advantage and all that?

They are lying.

Otherwise why is ZOS forced to go through with a redo of animation system?

Ok, believe me or not: I do NOT use any macros. I do NOT block-cancel any skills.
Still the new system bugs me, because they also messed up the attack-weaving. As I have said, it feels slower, it feels weird, it looks awful.

Nerouyn

I'm glad ZO are finally doing something about this.

I've always hated weird animation cancelling techniques to exploit combat systems. I know some people feel like it makes them more 'skilled' but it just makes combat feel really artificial and unenjoyable to me. So I don't do it. That means me not doing pvp or other content where people would get their panties in a bunch if I'm not doing the bizarro animation cancelling dance. Or sometimes just not playing a game at all. It wasn't the only reason I put ESO aside but it was one of them.

GaldorP

To me the the controls feel a bit less responsive now on the PTS, but that might just be because I normally play on the EU server and have a much better latency on that server. What I noticed is that Retreating Maneuver is sometimes cast several seconds after I pressed the key when I was mounted on a camel mount (and it seems to be not lag that's delaying the skill use since other actions are not delayed).

In my opinion, animation cancelling should work in the same way for all non channelling skills:

[ --- Animation part A --- ] [ Effects ] [ --- Animation part B -- ]

It should be possible to cancel the use of a skill when the first part of its animation (part A) is playing but the skill's effects haven't been dealt yet by using one of the following actions: block, dodge-roll, bash, or weapon-swap. If the animation is cancelled at this point the skill's effects should not be dealt! The command to perform a light or a heavy attack or use another skill should be ignored if entered during this first part of a skill's animation.

During the second part of the animation (part B ) which is played after the skill's effects have been dealt, the player should not be able to cancel the animation in any way.
If the player gives the command to block, perform a dodge-roll, use bash, swap weapon bars, perform a light or heavy attack, or use another skill during this part of the animation, the last such command given by the player should be run as soon as part B of the animation has finished.

Channelling skills continuously deal their effects and can be cancelled at any time during their animation when the player gives the command to block, dodge-roll, bash, or swap weapons bars (but not by the command to use a light or heavy attack or use another skill).

The actions Bash, Dodge-Roll, and Weapon Swap all should have an animation of their own that cannot be cancelled by the player.

Birdovic

2 days ago i did some dueling And it felt pretty awkward.
Using Abilities and Block cancelling were unresponsive, Animations looked weird and often abilities didnt proc at all. I really want to keep the current System, it feels Strange on PTS

DschiPeunt

Hey @ZOS_GinaBruno, I was just wondering, if there is any chance, that the new system will be changed, based on our feedback, before TG DLC goes live? Or will it definitely be released this way?
Because then I do not feel like making videos and write a detailed explanation of my problems with the changes. An answer would be very appreciated

bhlegit

ZOS please please listen to us. Give us a chance to change it before it goes live. Listen to our feedback. Attack weaving with a staff does not work - you have massively reduced the effectiveness of it - to the point where theres no point in animation cancelling at all.

Please don't listen to these people commenting who say they hate the way animation cancelling was and they left the game because of it, these are the same people who asked for it to be removed in the first place. they are stubborn and do not want to learn the technique.

you juut need to read the difference in comments here. The people responding against this change are responding with tests and numbers and proper explanations, whilst the majority of those responding pro the change are saying they do not currently play and/or left because of animation cancelling, even sometimes stooping to personal attacks against those supporting ac. It is clear to me that anyone who plays this game daily will animation cancel or at least know what it is and how to do it.This must show you guys what you are doing wrong. You are listening, again, to the wrong people. Listen to the players who play your game everyday. please. If you want the game not to die a quick death after this update. Please listen to us. This is the fork in the road.

karakondzula

bhlegit wrote: »

ZOS please please listen to us. Give us a chance to change it before it goes live. Listen to our feedback. Attack weaving with a staff does not work - you have massively reduced the effectiveness of it - to the point where theres no point in animation cancelling at all.

Please don't listen to these people commenting who say they hate the way animation cancelling was and they left the game because of it, these are the same people who asked for it to be removed in the first place. they are stubborn and do not want to learn the technique.

you juut need to read the difference in comments here. The people responding against this change are responding with tests and numbers and proper explanations, whilst the majority of those responding pro the change are saying they do not currently play and/or left because of animation cancelling, even sometimes stooping to personal attacks against those supporting ac. It is clear to me that anyone who plays this game daily will animation cancel or at least know what it is and how to do it.This must show you guys what you are doing wrong. You are listening, again, to the wrong people. Listen to the players who play your game everyday. please. If you want the game not to die a quick death after this update. Please listen to us. This is the fork in the road.

Another Prophet of Disaster
Who says the ship is lost,
Another Prophet of Disaster
Leaving you to count the cost.
Taunting us with Visions,
Afflicting us with fear,
Predicting War for millions,
In the hope that one appears.

lol

bhlegit

karakondzula wrote: »

show previous quotes

bhlegit wrote: »

ZOS please please listen to us. Give us a chance to change it before it goes live. Listen to our feedback. Attack weaving with a staff does not work - you have massively reduced the effectiveness of it - to the point where theres no point in animation cancelling at all.

Please don't listen to these people commenting who say they hate the way animation cancelling was and they left the game because of it, these are the same people who asked for it to be removed in the first place. they are stubborn and do not want to learn the technique.

you juut need to read the difference in comments here. The people responding against this change are responding with tests and numbers and proper explanations, whilst the majority of those responding pro the change are saying they do not currently play and/or left because of animation cancelling, even sometimes stooping to personal attacks against those supporting ac. It is clear to me that anyone who plays this game daily will animation cancel or at least know what it is and how to do it.This must show you guys what you are doing wrong. You are listening, again, to the wrong people. Listen to the players who play your game everyday. please. If you want the game not to die a quick death after this update. Please listen to us. This is the fork in the road.

Another Prophet of Disaster
Who says the ship is lost,
Another Prophet of Disaster
Leaving you to count the cost.
Taunting us with Visions,
Afflicting us with fear,
Predicting War for millions,
In the hope that one appears.

lol

nice, and very applicable lol

Laranoye

bhlegit wrote: »

ZOS please please listen to us. Give us a chance to change it before it goes live. Listen to our feedback. Attack weaving with a staff does not work - you have massively reduced the effectiveness of it - to the point where theres no point in animation cancelling at all.

Please don't listen to these people commenting who say they hate the way animation cancelling was and they left the game because of it, these are the same people who asked for it to be removed in the first place. they are stubborn and do not want to learn the technique.

you juut need to read the difference in comments here. The people responding against this change are responding with tests and numbers and proper explanations, whilst the majority of those responding pro the change are saying they do not currently play and/or left because of animation cancelling, even sometimes stooping to personal attacks against those supporting ac. It is clear to me that anyone who plays this game daily will animation cancel or at least know what it is and how to do it.This must show you guys what you are doing wrong. You are listening, again, to the wrong people. Listen to the players who play your game everyday. please. If you want the game not to die a quick death after this update. Please listen to us. This is the fork in the road.

Its not a technique... Its an abuse..
I probably should have worded my rants better.
No one wants to get rid of AC, but we do want to get rid of the damage still occurring when AC.. That is not how AC should work..

bhlegit

but seriously though, it will be anarchy if this goes live. most will run to the hills.. lol

bhlegit

Laranoye wrote: »

show previous quotes

bhlegit wrote: »

ZOS please please listen to us. Give us a chance to change it before it goes live. Listen to our feedback. Attack weaving with a staff does not work - you have massively reduced the effectiveness of it - to the point where theres no point in animation cancelling at all.

Please don't listen to these people commenting who say they hate the way animation cancelling was and they left the game because of it, these are the same people who asked for it to be removed in the first place. they are stubborn and do not want to learn the technique.

you juut need to read the difference in comments here. The people responding against this change are responding with tests and numbers and proper explanations, whilst the majority of those responding pro the change are saying they do not currently play and/or left because of animation cancelling, even sometimes stooping to personal attacks against those supporting ac. It is clear to me that anyone who plays this game daily will animation cancel or at least know what it is and how to do it.This must show you guys what you are doing wrong. You are listening, again, to the wrong people. Listen to the players who play your game everyday. please. If you want the game not to die a quick death after this update. Please listen to us. This is the fork in the road.

Its not a technique... Its an abuse..
I probably should have worded my rants better.
No one wants to get rid of AC, but we do want to get rid of the damage still occurring when AC.. That is not how AC should work..

Im sorry but you're just not right. It was INTENDED to work like this. If they wanted to do it like that they would have done so in the first place. Please refer to this video for clarification.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

Ffolks

That video in no way indicates that it was INTENDED.

The cast time of an ability should always be a factor when deciding whether to use it, not disregarded and worked around by bad/buggy/lazy game mechanics.

If this is the way Zenimax intends us to play the game then they should just embrace it and remove animations and cast times from all the abilities. Have everything instant cast until you run out of resources. In fact why bother with making us repeatedly push the same button, simply holding the key down should be enough to cast as many wrecking blows as a resource pool allows.

Whatever...

Create a Cyrodiil campaign that prohibits animation canceling and see where the crowd goes. /Rhetorical

Yes, I animation cancel, I hate it and personally consider it exploitive. But, when in Rome, or Cyrodiil, as the case may be...

Laranoye

Ffolks wrote: »

That video in no way indicates that it was INTENDED.

The cast time of an ability should always be a factor when deciding whether to use it, not disregarded and worked around by bad/buggy/lazy game mechanics.

If this is the way Zenimax intends us to play the game then they should just embrace it and remove animations and cast times from all the abilities. Have everything instant cast until you run out of resources. In fact why bother with making us repeatedly push the same button, simply holding the key down should be enough to cast as many wrecking blows as a resource pool allows.

Whatever...

Create a Cyrodiil campaign that prohibits animation canceling and see where the crowd goes. /Rhetorical

Yes, I animation cancel, I hate it and personally consider it exploitive. But, when in Rome, or Cyrodiil, as the case may be...

^this. And from someone who does it and admits its an exploit.. Why are others so blind lol.

bhlegit

you cannot cancel a channeled ability! for example if i hardcast crystal fragments and try to cancel it it cancels the attack and does not hit

bhlegit

Ffolks wrote: »

That video in no way indicates that it was INTENDED.

The cast time of an ability should always be a factor when deciding whether to use it, not disregarded and worked around by bad/buggy/lazy game mechanics.

If this is the way Zenimax intends us to play the game then they should just embrace it and remove animations and cast times from all the abilities. Have everything instant cast until you run out of resources. In fact why bother with making us repeatedly push the same button, simply holding the key down should be enough to cast as many wrecking blows as a resource pool allows.

Whatever...

Create a Cyrodiil campaign that prohibits animation canceling and see where the crowd goes. /Rhetorical

Yes, I animation cancel, I hate it and personally consider it exploitive. But, when in Rome, or Cyrodiil, as the case may be...

everything you said there is ridiculous, i wont even merit it with an answer. BUT the video does indeed say it was intended he literally says, and i quote 'it is part of the game and we want people to be doing it. Its an interesting, sort of, skill mechanic. theres different timings on different abilities....Its not a hack or an exploit, continue to animation cancel and do more damage.'

ToRelax

I tested for a while, and am neutral to most of the changes, as they are cosmetic, except block cancelling.

I can cancel between normal attacks, skills, roll bash and weapon swap as I used to, only block cancelling doesn't work at all. I can also block cast any instant skill perfectly fine (cast skills while holding block, and I will still block anything during the skill animation).
Because that and what was stated by ZOS in this thread, I view not being able to block cancel as a bug. And to clarify, I do *not* mean I should be able to hide an animation by pressing block, the problem is I actually don't block an incoming attack that happens while I am still in a skill animation, if I pressed block after starting the animation but before that attack hit me. It should be in line with block casting, with that it is possible to block at that same point during the skill animation.

rfennell_ESO

bhlegit wrote: »

you cannot cancel a channeled ability! for example if i hardcast crystal fragments and try to cancel it it cancels the attack and does not hit

Tell that to the guys working in heavy attacks while facerolling with biting jabs.

Or the heavy attacks that hit mid wrecking blow.

ToRelax

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

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bhlegit wrote: »

you cannot cancel a channeled ability! for example if i hardcast crystal fragments and try to cancel it it cancels the attack and does not hit

Tell that to the guys working in heavy attacks while facerolling with biting jabs.

Or the heavy attacks that hit mid wrecking blow.

Those heavy attacks don't deal the damage of a fully charged heavy attack, only get extra damage for how long they were charged. Even the least powerful heavy attack takes a few milliseconds longer than a light attack. Apart from that, heavy attacks used to be interruptable, making them not uninterruptable was a very unpopular change among the better PvPers.

rfennell_ESO

DschiPeunt wrote: »

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rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

I just dont understand, AT ALL, why? WHY? WHYYYY?

You know how the macro abusers claim it doesn't work and it is no advantage and all that?

They are lying.

Otherwise why is ZOS forced to go through with a redo of animation system?

Ok, believe me or not: I do NOT use any macros. I do NOT block-cancel any skills.
Still the new system bugs me, because they also messed up the attack-weaving. As I have said, it feels slower, it feels weird, it looks awful.

I'm just pointing out WHY Zos has been forced to address this issue and spend man hours correcting it. It's due to macro kiddie exploiters and their manipulation of the system so egregious that we are where we currently are.

Attack weaving is also another issue where quite a few are macroing it out. It's a bad system. Particularly if you have to do it on Manticora or something. It's truly painful and ridiculous to actually expect someone to have to do it. I would rather them add in auto attacks and just run light attacks off a set timer based on the weapon than deal with the light attack->ability animation cancelling circus show. I would leave heavy attacks in to be "woven" for their resource return.

bhlegit

what they are doing is artificially forcing the skill gap between players to be smaller. Its the same as trying to reduce a country's wealth divide between poor and rich. From an economic (not political) standpoint, you don't increase welfare state and tax the rich more it does not create wealth, infact you must use that money that the wealthy created to make better education so you bring the people at the bottom up and give them more opportunity. What i am saying may be controversial and you may not understand the analogy - what i mean is, if you are aiming for longevity of the game and a large player base, you don't artificially shorten the skill gap on the short term, its much better to teach those people at the bottom (to play) so in the long run you create more players at the top. Maybe put a tutorial about animation cancelling in the game itself. Does that make sense? Its a common trend in games currently, they dumb them down. Its ok if it happens at launch, but the fact that this game has been out for a long time now. I've played since beta, I paid for a sub for a year - AND NOW they change it - its utterly infuriating.

Enodoc

bhlegit wrote: »

you cannot cancel a channeled ability! for example if i hardcast crystal fragments and try to cancel it it cancels the attack and does not hit

I thought we were talking about cast time, not channel time.

bhlegit

Enodoc wrote: »

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bhlegit wrote: »

you cannot cancel a channeled ability! for example if i hardcast crystal fragments and try to cancel it it cancels the attack and does not hit

I thought we were talking about cast time, not channel time.

Well actually crystal fragments is not a channeled ability it has a one second cast time. It cannot be cancelled. AS far as i know a channeled ability is a lot harder if not impossible to cancel, like say the 1st vampire ability drain essence, it is a channeled ability has 3 sec time, it cannot be cancelled. Does that clarfiy things for you? The only animations i regularly cancel are crushing shock with light/med attack weave and the instant cast abilities. But on pts this is completely gimped (light/med attack weave with staff) This is as a magicka sorc. Currently on stamina class on pts you can still heavy attack into another skill suprise attack wrecking blow whatever. it can still essentially be cancelled.

Laranoye

bhlegit wrote: »

what they are doing is artificially forcing the skill gap between players to be smaller. Its the same as trying to reduce a country's wealth divide between poor and rich. From an economic (not political) standpoint, you don't increase welfare state and tax the rich more it does not create wealth, infact you must use that money that the wealthy created to make better education so you bring the people at the bottom up and give them more opportunity. What i am saying may be controversial and you may not understand the analogy - what i mean is, if you are aiming for longevity of the game and a large player base, you don't artificially shorten the skill gap on the short term, its much better to teach those people at the bottom (to play) so in the long run you create more players at the top. Maybe put a tutorial about animation cancelling in the game itself. Does that make sense? Its a common trend in games currently, they dumb them down. Its ok if it happens at launch, but the fact that this game has been out for a long time now. I've played since beta, I paid for a sub for a year - AND NOW they change it - its utterly infuriating.

Please for the love of monkeys... Stop writing in wall format..

Trying to comprehend what the heck you were talking about was made all the more difficult like this.

Yes it has been that way for a while but its because they couldn't fix it, Bugs emerged with wrecking blow spam among others. And now they are trying to do something with it all-beit awfully.

bhlegit

Laranoye wrote: »

show previous quotes

bhlegit wrote: »

what they are doing is artificially forcing the skill gap between players to be smaller. Its the same as trying to reduce a country's wealth divide between poor and rich. From an economic (not political) standpoint, you don't increase welfare state and tax the rich more it does not create wealth, infact you must use that money that the wealthy created to make better education so you bring the people at the bottom up and give them more opportunity. What i am saying may be controversial and you may not understand the analogy - what i mean is, if you are aiming for longevity of the game and a large player base, you don't artificially shorten the skill gap on the short term, its much better to teach those people at the bottom (to play) so in the long run you create more players at the top. Maybe put a tutorial about animation cancelling in the game itself. Does that make sense? Its a common trend in games currently, they dumb them down. Its ok if it happens at launch, but the fact that this game has been out for a long time now. I've played since beta, I paid for a sub for a year - AND NOW they change it - its utterly infuriating.

Please for the love of monkeys... Stop writing in wall format..

Trying to comprehend what the heck you were talking about was made all the more difficult like this.
.

yeah fair enough, sorry.

Shaggygaming

bhlegit wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ffolks wrote: »

That video in no way indicates that it was INTENDED.

The cast time of an ability should always be a factor when deciding whether to use it, not disregarded and worked around by bad/buggy/lazy game mechanics.

If this is the way Zenimax intends us to play the game then they should just embrace it and remove animations and cast times from all the abilities. Have everything instant cast until you run out of resources. In fact why bother with making us repeatedly push the same button, simply holding the key down should be enough to cast as many wrecking blows as a resource pool allows.

Whatever...

Create a Cyrodiil campaign that prohibits animation canceling and see where the crowd goes. /Rhetorical

Yes, I animation cancel, I hate it and personally consider it exploitive. But, when in Rome, or Cyrodiil, as the case may be...

everything you said there is ridiculous, i wont even merit it with an answer. BUT the video does indeed say it was intended he literally says, and i quote 'it is part of the game and we want people to be doing it. Its an interesting, sort of, skill mechanic. theres different timings on different abilities....Its not a hack or an exploit, continue to animation cancel and do more damage.'

The system was not originally designed for animation cancelling. They later found after it was released that animation cancelling was possible and liked the fact it added a little bit of skill/complexity to the combat system. The problem is that animation cancelling in PVP hides the enemies skill intentions and that is bad for the PVP combat system. It creates a terrible PVP system when you can hide the animations of your skills.

On the PVE side there's less screaming. I think animation cancelling from the PVE is more of a burden on the developers. How do you balance content challenging for top tier guilds who can animation cancel compared to a more casual progression guild who does not?

bhlegit

What they are doing is artificially forcing the skill gap between players to be smaller. Its the same as trying to reduce a country's wealth divide between poor and rich. From an economic (not political) standpoint, you don't increase welfare state and tax the rich more it does not create wealth, in fact you must use that money that the wealthy created to make better education so you bring the people at the bottom up and give them more opportunity.

What i am saying may be controversial and you may not understand the analogy - what i mean is, if you are aiming for longevity of the game and a large player base, you don't artificially shorten the skill gap on the short term. Its much better to teach those people at the bottom (to play) so in the long run you create more players at the top. Maybe put a tutorial about animation cancelling in the game itself. Does that make sense?

Its a common trend in games currently, they dumb them down. Its ok if it happens at launch, but the fact that this game has been out for a long time now. I've played since beta, I paid for a sub for a year - AND NOW they change it - its utterly infuriating.

How's that, bud?

bhlegit

Adonikam wrote: »

show previous quotes

bhlegit wrote: »

Ffolks wrote: »

That video in no way indicates that it was INTENDED.

The cast time of an ability should always be a factor when deciding whether to use it, not disregarded and worked around by bad/buggy/lazy game mechanics.

If this is the way Zenimax intends us to play the game then they should just embrace it and remove animations and cast times from all the abilities. Have everything instant cast until you run out of resources. In fact why bother with making us repeatedly push the same button, simply holding the key down should be enough to cast as many wrecking blows as a resource pool allows.

Whatever...

Create a Cyrodiil campaign that prohibits animation canceling and see where the crowd goes. /Rhetorical

Yes, I animation cancel, I hate it and personally consider it exploitive. But, when in Rome, or Cyrodiil, as the case may be...

everything you said there is ridiculous, i wont even merit it with an answer. BUT the video does indeed say it was intended he literally says, and i quote 'it is part of the game and we want people to be doing it. Its an interesting, sort of, skill mechanic. theres different timings on different abilities....Its not a hack or an exploit, continue to animation cancel and do more damage.'

The system was not originally designed for animation cancelling. They later found after it was released that animation cancelling was possible and liked the fact it added a little bit of skill/complexity to the combat system. The problem is that animation cancelling in PVP hides the enemies skill intentions and that is bad for the PVP combat system. It creates a terrible PVP system when you can hide the animations of your skills.

On the PVE side there's less screaming. I think animation cancelling from the PVE is more of a burden on the developers. How do you balance content challenging for top tier guilds who can animation cancel compared to a more casual progression guild who does not?

I think i've said it before on this thread but no, it does not completely hide the animation! You can still see the start if you know what to look for! Therefore still allowing you to use it as a visual combat cue. misinfo!