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Official Feedback Thread for Prioritization of Combat Animations

  • smacx250
    smacx250
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    Hello, just wanted to talk about a few things regarding these changes.

    Roll cancels and swap cancels seem to work the same as on live. But something has gone horibly wrong with block canceling.

    Light attack > Skill > block

    On live you can block cancel all skills to get them to fire a few milisecconds faster than before, but on the pts this is no longer the case. Some skills still function the same when block cancelled (channeled focus) while others can no longer be block canceled (purifying ritual, binding javelin, executioner)

    Please tell me this is a bug Zeni :neutral: because as it stands right now my Templar is feeling very clunky on the pts without the ability to properly block cancel half my skills.

    I'm curious, why would you need to block cancel Javelin or Executioner? Both are instant cast, so the next action you initiate (e.g. another ability) is going to start immediately at the end of the 1 second GCD anyway. Even with cast spells, my experience has been that block canceling will shorten the animation time if the animation lasts longer than the actual (tooltip stated) cast time, but it will NOT shorten the underlying cast time. For example, you can block cancel something like Wrecking Blow, but doing so won't let you cast more Wrecking Blows back to back in the same amount of time.

    Some people can break free faster than you can complete the animation of Javelin. Sometimes it needs to cancelled to cue up another attack. Some can animation cancel a heal or simply roll dodge away faster than an Executioner because they know it's coming. The faster you can do it, the better. It's skill.

    I've seen guys roll and dodge and wreck and have fun going from one kill to another. Fluidity. Sorcs being Sorcs spreading fights and angering pugs. Templars and DK's stood on a flags getting beat on and on and on and on, block cancelling heals and shields. All of these, weren't your average players mind. These were guys pushing the limits of the game...can't do that anymore. Not since 1.7 and especially not in this update incoming. Those are the guys I and many have become by now. We mastered the game.

    If this goes live, I'm done. Just can't be bothered, I'll find another. Sick of the dumbing down.
    Some of these statements seem to imply that the purpose of the block-cancel is to obscure the animation of the preceding skill, so that the defender won't see it coming? If so, then yes, the intent of these changes is to prevent that. What isn't supposed to change is the timing of the damage from the attack, or subsequent attacks.
  • Ffastyl
    Ffastyl
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    smacx250 wrote: »
    Hello, just wanted to talk about a few things regarding these changes.

    Roll cancels and swap cancels seem to work the same as on live. But something has gone horibly wrong with block canceling.

    Light attack > Skill > block

    On live you can block cancel all skills to get them to fire a few milisecconds faster than before, but on the pts this is no longer the case. Some skills still function the same when block cancelled (channeled focus) while others can no longer be block canceled (purifying ritual, binding javelin, executioner)

    Please tell me this is a bug Zeni :neutral: because as it stands right now my Templar is feeling very clunky on the pts without the ability to properly block cancel half my skills.

    I'm curious, why would you need to block cancel Javelin or Executioner? Both are instant cast, so the next action you initiate (e.g. another ability) is going to start immediately at the end of the 1 second GCD anyway. Even with cast spells, my experience has been that block canceling will shorten the animation time if the animation lasts longer than the actual (tooltip stated) cast time, but it will NOT shorten the underlying cast time. For example, you can block cancel something like Wrecking Blow, but doing so won't let you cast more Wrecking Blows back to back in the same amount of time.

    Some people can break free faster than you can complete the animation of Javelin. Sometimes it needs to cancelled to cue up another attack. Some can animation cancel a heal or simply roll dodge away faster than an Executioner because they know it's coming. The faster you can do it, the better. It's skill.

    I've seen guys roll and dodge and wreck and have fun going from one kill to another. Fluidity. Sorcs being Sorcs spreading fights and angering pugs. Templars and DK's stood on a flags getting beat on and on and on and on, block cancelling heals and shields. All of these, weren't your average players mind. These were guys pushing the limits of the game...can't do that anymore. Not since 1.7 and especially not in this update incoming. Those are the guys I and many have become by now. We mastered the game.

    If this goes live, I'm done. Just can't be bothered, I'll find another. Sick of the dumbing down.
    Some of these statements seem to imply that the purpose of the block-cancel is to obscure the animation of the preceding skill, so that the defender won't see it coming? If so, then yes, the intent of these changes is to prevent that. What isn't supposed to change is the timing of the damage from the attack, or subsequent attacks.

    One implementation of block canceling on Live is to speed up certain skills such as Dawnbreaker. The ultimate takes approximately a second of hoisting a glowy magical sword and screaming before blasting the ground in front. Block canceling this ultimate allows the pre-attack psych out to be skipped, initiating the ground blasting and resultant damage immediately. This ultimate used to have a cast time, which was shortened to instant, but the animation was not shortened or changed, giving it the same total execution time but no longer interruptible.
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  • fred.thomsonb16_ESO
    The diagram is incorrect as far as wind up can be completely negated in the current live iteration outside of skills with a cast time. (except for opening attacks between combos)


    Thank you for the feedback! To help clarify, the illustration is specific to heavy attacks interrupted mid-wind-up by an instant ability. However, in the case of an instant ability being interrupted, just remove the wind-up and the remainder of the image is correct -- the instant ability will display up until the moment of impact/launch. That second, interrupting ability still happens the moment you activate it, the only difference is that the beginning few frames of that animation will be obscured by the impact/launch of the preceding one. Conversely, on the Live megaserver, the impact/launch of the first ability is obscured by the first few frames of the second one.

    So, while it's true that you can no longer entirely hide a successful ability with another, the way the game is reacting to your input should be unchanged. If you find that not to be the case, please let us know your rotation and we'll investigate what is happening.

    So I did some testing on PTS and live using wrecking blow as the baseline skill and two rotations, the first being charging a wrecking blow whilst holding a heavy attack, releasing the heavy attack just after impact and charging the next wrecking blow; the second being light attacking then charging the wrecking blow then light attacking on impact and charging another.
    In the first instance the heavy attack is now visible on PTS where as it is cancelled completely on live, the PTS variant show a quick waving of the 2h before the next skill is charged and the live variant only shows the wrecking blow with only the sound of the heavy attacks giving an indication of their hit, if timing is slowed they are still slightly visible.
    In the second instance, for light attacks being weaved between wrecking blows on the PTS, the wrecking blow disappears completely outside of part of the windup, on live the wrecking blow is visible most of the time.
    As far as other skills such as execute, overload, dawnbreaker, etc. they are still possible to completely animation cancel using dodge rolls and weapon swaps but not blocking or bashing.
    Overall the dps will be lowered for this particular weave......lucky for some. Except the part about invisible wrecking blows.....not so lucky.
    Edited by fred.thomsonb16_ESO on February 6, 2016 8:50PM
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    I can't believe you guy would nerf-block canceling, are you mad that stam DKs were able to Light attac - skill - bash to have an alternative to wrecking blow spam?
  • smacx250
    smacx250
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    Ffastyl wrote: »
    One implementation of block canceling on Live is to speed up certain skills such as Dawnbreaker. The ultimate takes approximately a second of hoisting a glowy magical sword and screaming before blasting the ground in front. Block canceling this ultimate allows the pre-attack psych out to be skipped, initiating the ground blasting and resultant damage immediately. This ultimate used to have a cast time, which was shortened to instant, but the animation was not shortened or changed, giving it the same total execution time but no longer interruptible.
    Thanks for the detail - sounds like a bug!
  • fred.thomsonb16_ESO
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    I can't believe you guy would nerf-block canceling, are you mad that stam DKs were able to Light attac - skill - bash to have an alternative to wrecking blow spam?

    The bash is still there just the animation doesn't show, the damage does however.
    Edited by fred.thomsonb16_ESO on February 6, 2016 9:56PM
  • nemisan
    nemisan
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    Just kill AC off once and for all and many more ppl will start playing eso:fact
  • Mulcibur
    Mulcibur
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    Block canceling is screwed. This is not a good change at all. Why should it be possible to weave offensive abilities (light attack, skill, bash) but not block cancel cast defensively. Combat is horribly slow now.
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do.
  • WillhelmBlack
    WillhelmBlack
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    ✭✭
    ZOS.

    Don't remove block cancelling. Magicka Sorcs, Magicka NB's and some other builds don't even use it. Some builds just use it for buffs but I'm sure they can make it work.

    My main is a Magicka Templar. Bar 2 is sword and shield, it's my defensive bar.

    Defensive Stance. Nerfed. Cannot be block cancelled.
    Blazing Spear. Nerfed.
    Channeled Focus. Nerfed. Cannot be block cancelled.
    Purify Ritual. Nerfed. Cannot be block cancelled.
    BoL. Nerfed. Cannot be block cancelled.

    So all those skills nerfed this update AND I can't block cancel them?

    What's a Templar to do? Cast blinding flashes and spam blazing shield?
    Edited by WillhelmBlack on February 7, 2016 10:43AM
    PC EU
  • Mulcibur
    Mulcibur
    ✭✭✭
    I'm a magicka sorc and not being able to block cancel Ward, Harness or any of my other buffs greatly affects my survivability. Why should it be possible for someone to still weave light attack, skill, bash thereby doing the same dps as before but I'm unable to block cancel my defensive abilities.

    On an offensive side, proc'd shards, curse and some other abilities cannot be block canceled anymore. This change was not meant to affect dps but not being able to do this anymore most certainly affects dps.

    Happy to provide comparison videos if needed.
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do.
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
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    Manoekin wrote: »
    My only complaint is if I cancel the animation with a weapon swap, it will often swap twice. Although, it could just be swapping twice randomly.

    and the skill you bar swap cancelled sometimes doesn't even go off.

    This happens with roll dodge cancelling too. Sometimes when I roll dodge vigor, it doesn't go off. The timing is very different and you have to wait a bit longer before cancelling the animation.
    While my DPS remains untouched, the combat in general feels really sluggish. I enjoyed ESO for its responsive combat system, but you're kind of destroying that on the PTS currently. Sure, it looks prettier, but at what cost?
    (sqweee )>--- ۜ\(סּںסּَ` )/ۜ
  • spoqster
    spoqster
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    Alucardo wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    My only complaint is if I cancel the animation with a weapon swap, it will often swap twice. Although, it could just be swapping twice randomly.

    and the skill you bar swap cancelled sometimes doesn't even go off.

    This happens with roll dodge cancelling too. Sometimes when I roll dodge vigor, it doesn't go off. The timing is very different and you have to wait a bit longer before cancelling the animation.
    While my DPS remains untouched, the combat in general feels really sluggish. I enjoyed ESO for its responsive combat system, but you're kind of destroying that on the PTS currently. Sure, it looks prettier, but at what cost?

    Are you sure it feels sluggish bc of the new system and not bc people are still getting used to the new system?
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    Changes to Dawnbreaker, as an Example
    What I do not get is, Blockcancel got changed, but Weap Swap/ROll Cancel still works as before. Why?
    Edited by Alcast on February 7, 2016 3:26PM
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  • WillhelmBlack
    WillhelmBlack
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    ✭✭
    Alcast wrote: »
    Changes to Dawnbreaker, as an Example
    What I do not get is, Blockcancel got changed, but Weap Swap/ROll Cancel still works as before. Why?

    It's a good question!
    PC EU
  • Kova
    Kova
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alcast wrote: »
    Changes to Dawnbreaker, as an Example
    What I do not get is, Blockcancel got changed, but Weap Swap/ROll Cancel still works as before. Why?

    Because they put in cooldowns to fix the animations. Imagine not being able to weapon swap in mid combat because of a sticky skill animation.

    Oh wait.
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  • Wollust
    Wollust
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    I have a few issues regarding the new animation canceling currently on the PTS.

    If I animationcancel (really really fast) with a weaponswap, I'll change first normally to my other weapon but then immediately back to the first weapon without me doing anything. Very annoying if I reapply skills from my offbar and cut of the animation of the last skill on the offbar to swap to my mainbar, because it will change back to my offbar no matter what.
    If I walk while weaving (in this case firestaff + engulfing flames), I get some kind of a micro stutter/stop/whatever, where my character just stops for a splitsecond.


    Overall, the new AC feels slightly unresponsive and slower. However, I'm from the EU server so my latency is weird and rather crappy on the PTS. So it might be caused by that.
    Susano'o

    Zerg Squad
  • bhlegit
    bhlegit
    ✭✭✭
    the combat now feels clunky and slow. animation cancelling provided a way to really feel the game and what you were doing, if you insist on removing/changing it you are inevitably going to lose all of the long time players. Its simple the combat feels different, it may as well be a different game.I know you say animation cancelling is still there blah blah but honestly it may as well not be, its so slow now that theres not much point in cancelling every attack only specific ones with maybe a dodge or wep swap, block cancelling is dead (as far is a i can tell with a staff and sorc abilities) I cant speak for other classes but if this goes live i know a lot of sorcerers who won't be happy. What i don't understand is how any player could play the game for more than a month or so at endgame and NOT learn how to animation cancel or at least do it with some specific attacks, who are the people crying about animation cancelling? the ones who are too stubborn to learn a core mechanic of this game, which you guys have said yourself is intended. You can look on hte forum, its littered with posts about animation cancelling, and you can see from the way they describe it, they havent the first idea what it really is or how to do it and you know as well as i do their deaths in cyro are obviously down to a lot of other factors as well as animation cancelling - from sneak, fully buffed standing in meteor for ages or something i dunno, but you get my point. The problem we have now is a dumbing down of the game, and its evident from the other changes like selling monster helms, meteor now not reflectable but still not dodgeable, reducing xp required for pvp ranks. all this stuff adds up to just pushing people away. You won't get any long term players (not to mention the fact that you already have lost most of them), it will be people who play the game to level 50 and move on and casual end game players, ultimately leading to the death of the game. Which is a shame because it really has potential right now.
    Edited by bhlegit on February 8, 2016 7:43AM
  • Lucky28
    Lucky28
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    silky_soft wrote: »
    Once again, ZOS pleases the casuals and the QQ'ers. I hate this new system, I miss animation cancelling with block. It was the trademarks of a skilled player, never a sign of a potato player who is cheating. All the good players animation cancelled, while bad players never did.

    Zenimax screwed one of the games only awesome systems because of the QQ spam on the forums. Combat feels sluggish now.

    Disagree, all the bad players seem to not be able to adapt to the change. Shield and heal spammers are hit the hardest. Just like what happened dodge and block changes. Your lazy cheese play style is over.

    No they're not. people who are skilled and quick enough to take on multiple players are the ones hit the hardest. you say animation canceling is 'lazy' when in fact it actually takes alot more effort to animation cancel your skills then to not do so.

    frankly your comment just shows your ignorance in regards to the subject.

    fyi. i never use animation cancels on my shields or heals.
    Edited by Lucky28 on February 8, 2016 7:18AM
    Invictus
  • Mulcibur
    Mulcibur
    ✭✭✭
    bhlegit wrote: »
    the combat now feels clunky and slow. animation cancelling provided a way to really feel the game and what you were doing, if you insist on removing/changing it you are inevitably going to lose all of the long time players. Its simple the combat feels different, it may as well be a different game.I know you say animation cancelling is still there blah blah but honestly it may as well not be, its so slow now that theres not much point in cancelling every attack only specific ones with maybe a dodge or wep swap, block cancelling is dead (as far is a i can tell with a staff and sorc abilities) I cant speak for other classes but if this goes live i know a lot of sorcerers who won't be happy. What i don't understand is how any player could play the game for more than a month or so at endgame and NOT learn how to animation cancel or at least do it with some specific attacks, who are the people crying about animation cancelling? the ones who are two stubborn to learn a core mechanic of this game, which you guys have said yourself is intended. You can look on hte forum, its littered with posts about animation cancelling, and you can see from the way they describe it, they havent the first idea what it really is or how to do it and you know as well as i do their deaths in cyro are obviously down to a lot of other factors as well as animation cancelling - form sneak, fully buffed standing in meteor for ages or something i duno, but you get my point. The problem we have now is a dumbing down of the game, and its evident from the other changes like selling monster helms, meteor not reflectable but still not dodgeable, reducing xp required for ap ranks. all this stuff adds up to just pushing people away. You won't get any long term players (not to mention the fact that you already have lost most of them), it will be people who play the game to level 50 and move on and casual end game players, ultimately leading to the death of the game. Which is a shame because it really has potential right now.

    Could not agree with this more. This is a huge change and anyone I speak to on Live about this is against it. Not everyone is testing on PTS but if these changes go Live it'll be anarchy.
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do.
  • bhlegit
    bhlegit
    ✭✭✭
    [quote="silky_soft;2669078"

    Disagree, all the bad players seem to not be able to adapt to the change. Shield and heal spammers are hit the hardest. Just like what happened dodge and block changes. Your lazy cheese play style is over.[/quote]

    what are you talking about it takes a lot more effort, coordination, quick reactions and concentration to fight multiple players with fast paced attacks - much more than standing still spamming mutagen. posters like you are the reason this uneeded and unwanted change has come about..
    Edited by bhlegit on February 8, 2016 7:18AM
  • bhlegit
    bhlegit
    ✭✭✭
    Mulcibur wrote: »
    bhlegit wrote: »
    the combat now feels clunky and slow. animation cancelling provided a way to really feel the game and what you were doing, if you insist on removing/changing it you are inevitably going to lose all of the long time players. Its simple the combat feels different, it may as well be a different game.I know you say animation cancelling is still there blah blah but honestly it may as well not be, its so slow now that theres not much point in cancelling every attack only specific ones with maybe a dodge or wep swap, block cancelling is dead (as far is a i can tell with a staff and sorc abilities) I cant speak for other classes but if this goes live i know a lot of sorcerers who won't be happy. What i don't understand is how any player could play the game for more than a month or so at endgame and NOT learn how to animation cancel or at least do it with some specific attacks, who are the people crying about animation cancelling? the ones who are two stubborn to learn a core mechanic of this game, which you guys have said yourself is intended. You can look on hte forum, its littered with posts about animation cancelling, and you can see from the way they describe it, they havent the first idea what it really is or how to do it and you know as well as i do their deaths in cyro are obviously down to a lot of other factors as well as animation cancelling - form sneak, fully buffed standing in meteor for ages or something i duno, but you get my point. The problem we have now is a dumbing down of the game, and its evident from the other changes like selling monster helms, meteor not reflectable but still not dodgeable, reducing xp required for ap ranks. all this stuff adds up to just pushing people away. You won't get any long term players (not to mention the fact that you already have lost most of them), it will be people who play the game to level 50 and move on and casual end game players, ultimately leading to the death of the game. Which is a shame because it really has potential right now.

    Could not agree with this more. This is a huge change and anyone I speak to on Live about this is against it. Not everyone is testing on PTS but if these changes go Live it'll be anarchy.


    yeah man i know, same. I haven't come across a single person who is for it except for on the forum here. It's completely counter intuitive - on that diagram the bottom two statements: 'DPS and other playstyles should not be adversely affected,
    The game’s “feel” should not change' are just plain wrong. The combat feels completely different (yeah we might get used to it over time but frankly its just a game and i wont give it the time, as much as i love it), and different playstyles are definitely affected and sometimes so is your damage output because you miss some crucial weaves to make burst etc. Also i died to npc whilst in the animation of dawnbreaker i mean wtf is this crap. Real players who care about this issue need to speak up before its too late and our beloved game is ruined.
  • Mulcibur
    Mulcibur
    ✭✭✭
    King Richard, Sypher, Fengrush and Lefty Lucy articulated these changes well

    As mentioned, the changes don't affect all skills and affect stam classes less than mag classes. Animation canceling hasn't been removed, now we need to dodge or weapon swap cancel instead of block cancel. Where's the balance in that? What's the point? For builds with low stamina, having to dodge roll to cancel animations is unreasonable.
    Edited by Mulcibur on February 8, 2016 8:16AM
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do.
  • Jura23
    Jura23
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    What a lame change to Dawnbreaker. Only thing it does it forces ppl to change their keybindings to be able to cancel most effectively. And the less experienced players will get even more confused because the ability doesn't act consistently anymore. What's the point?
    Georgion - Bosmer/Templar - PC/EU
  • Mulcibur
    Mulcibur
    ✭✭✭
    Jowrik wrote: »
    Hello, just wanted to talk about a few things regarding these changes.

    Roll cancels and swap cancels seem to work the same as on live. But something has gone horibly wrong with block canceling.

    Light attack > Skill > block

    On live you can block cancel all skills to get them to fire a few milisecconds faster than before, but on the pts this is no longer the case. Some skills still function the same when block cancelled (channeled focus) while others can no longer be block canceled (purifying ritual, binding javelin, executioner)

    Please tell me this is a bug Zeni :neutral: because as it stands right now my Templar is feeling very clunky on the pts without the ability to properly block cancel half my skills.

    As it should be honestly.... If you block cancel Executioner, then there's no way of the enemy seeing you use Executioner, they only see you blocking while being hit all of a sudden. This is exactly what they removed and I couldn't be more happy about it

    The damage goes off at the start of the animation. Even if you see the animation, you can't do anything about it. That's the way combat works.

    And this change hasn't stopped you not being able to see Executioner. All I do now is weapon swap cancel it and you still won't see the animation. This is why it's pointless. One way of canceling has been taken away but the other ways still work. What's the point?
    Edited by Mulcibur on February 8, 2016 2:00PM
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do.
  • Nysticc
    Nysticc
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    The thing is, it only effects Magicka builds. I can still cancel fine on stam.
  • Shader_Shibes
    Shader_Shibes
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    Just keep it the way it is on live please, seems more clunky on pts.
  • bhlegit
    bhlegit
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    Jura23 wrote: »
    What a lame change to Dawnbreaker. Only thing it does it forces ppl to change their keybindings to be able to cancel most effectively. And the less experienced players will get even more confused because the ability doesn't act consistently anymore. What's the point?

    you're right, it only makes it harder for the less experienced players. they have to learn what it is and how its changed and how it works now and deal with the fact that some abilities act differently, not to mention stam builds etc will still be cancelling so on the whole the same people will still be crying about being killed fast and not being able to see every single animation play out before they die
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