Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

Alucardo · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Bring it into Cyrodiil first! Players can check the bounty board on other players in their campaign that have bounties on their head. If they kill them, they collect.

Sorry Alucardo but that's nonsensical. There are 2 places in Tamriel where justice system doesn't apply : Cyrodiil and Coldharbour.

In Cyrodiil, because it's a war zone. Law/Justice don't apply in war zones (that's even imho the basic definition of war... )
In Coldharbour because it's not on Nirn, and the daedra certainly don't care about Nirn laws and their reinforcement.

As convenient as it could appear technically to have the PvP part of justice system be implemented in Cyrodiil, it makes no sense story-wise.

That... kind of hurts my feelings.

HeroOfNone · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy

I think one thing that needs to be said is there is a perception that ZOS doesn't listen, but I think they do:
- ZOS doesn't listen to one particular voice, so it's hard to predict how certain changes will be implemented.

What I understand is that we've been patient and polite. I didn't come to the forums every week to say how impatient I was to see the PvP part of justice system implemented and how amazing it would be.
I did not harass ZOS every week with questions such as "when is it coming ?" "how is it going to be designed ?"
I thought it would come when ready and shut my mouth. Shouldn't have.
Rude and noisy "PvP arena" people got what they wanted (I have nothing against arena guys, just against the way some people acted about it...)
We don't get what was officially promised, announced and advertised. We were respectful and quiet. And ignored, or simply forgotten.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.

It's not something that was "discussed" or "considered", it's something that was promised and advertised. Big difference.
Obviously, the issues mentioned as "reasons" (balance, exploits...) should all have been considered BEFORE making any promises.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

Let's hope so, but I'm not sure I'd fall for another "we're working on it guys, it's coming, be patient"...

The way I read it they have been developing and planning it in the background as promised but hit a wall. Maybe they can post up some of the different ideas they tried, but unlike PVP arenas they had plans in the works. I don't think this would preclude you from posting ideas about how it could be implemented, or posting polls about how interested folks are.

I personally hope I wasn't one of those rude folks you refer to posting about arenas, I tried to be relatively well structured in my posts, though still sad they never got the big push by users like housing of shield dye posts ever got.

NobleNerd · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

The limiting factor here comes down to ZOS's funding for ESO. Does their budget support hiring more/better programmers? This is also something we shouldn't have to worry about when thinking about the future of the game, in my opinion. That's not our problem.

I agree that ZOS should not simply give up like that on something they promised (and promised on an official worldwide event, not in small lines hidden in a forum somewhere)
I agree that technical difficulty should not be our primary concern : it's their job. Especially since other games have made it before, they should be able to do it.

HOWEVER... you can't say on one hand "we will help you" and on the other hand say "your constraints are none of our business". Budget/Staff limitations ARE realities that have to be taken into account and that we cannot ignore if we want to "help them". These limitations are probably out of their own hands... ZOS is part of a big corporation, it's not CD Projekt red...

What I believe Lefty was saying about it not concerning us is the fact that they announced this as an intended feature and set to work on it. If they did not believe they were capable of completing the project or had concerns on implementing it then they should not have released it to the player base as an intended feature coming to the game.

I think all of understand limitations with staffing and talented workers. Unfortunately over the last year I see red flags popping up over the quality of workers they do have and their ability to produce anything outside of the DLC content.

ZOS really needs to realize they have a strong (for now) player base of people who are willing to support them. ZOS needs to put our passion for the game to good use also by opening up the PTS for bug fixes and let us help test out lag fixes to get them into the live server faster. That whole comment that they cannot test the lag fixes on their test servers effectively was like.... what the heck is PTS for then guys!?!?!? I for one would be happy to jump into PTS to test out lag fixes for them!

TheBonesXXX · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

@Joy_Division - Thank you very much for your detailed response. I really enjoyed reading what you had to say. If you don't mind, my thoughts --

Joy_Division wrote: »

Hi Lefty!

Much of it comes down to what seems to be little resources and manpower ZOS has available to them.

...

Sorry, I love PvP and do it just about every night, but those are my priorities.

This is a good observation, one which I have also realized. ZOS certainly appears to be understaffed when it comes to software development. However, in my opinion, it is unacceptable to commit to the development of a PvP Justice System and then go back on your word. If you say you're going to give me X, I expect X, I don't expect "nevermind".

Additionally, why should we as ESO gamers have to take into account the staffing levels of the developers when we think about upcoming updates? We shouldn't have to care about this. ZOS should increase staffing to support all of their projects. They shouldn't force us to pick and choose between content which they promised us. I understand prioritizing one update over another, but completely dropping something because of staffing (or difficulty - but we'll touch on that later)... I can't get behind that.

The limiting factor here comes down to ZOS's funding for ESO. Does their budget support hiring more/better programmers? This is also something we shouldn't have to worry about when thinking about the future of the game, in my opinion. That's not our problem.

Joy_Division wrote: »

However, I think you are underestimating the difficulty in making the PvP component exactly what you are saying, a in-depth and interesting system that adds substance to the Tamriel Zenimax has created.

I have a background in software development, so I can relate to the difficulty of this task. I know it's not easy. Same goes for many of the problems you listed in your original post. Game development is complex. You almost can't touch anything in the code without impacting something else. I fully understand this.

However, I have no sympathy for ZOS regarding the difficulty of implementing content which they promised us. They should not have promised us anything without fully understanding their limits as a development team. But they did promise us something, so they need to do at least attempt it! Give it to us on the PTS. Start small. Start somewhere! This is their job.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You also kept saying that the ESO community could help Zenimax implement this right. Yes, they could. But what gives you the impression that Zenimax works in such a way? They do NOT consult us in their development, have a history of implementing stuff/changes that nobody has ever asked for (and not even putting it in the patch notes), and they only make superficial revisions during the PTS process.

This is an excellent point. Thank you for making it. I made the statement that we could help ZOS in development with the understanding that this really hasn't been done before. This is a proposal for change. ZOS should change how they are implementing changes to their game by opening up two-way communication channels between the community and the developers.

This is a win-win for everyone. Players benefit by receiving content that should be more fair and balanced, and ZOS benefits from having multiple minds thinking about their development problems (i.e. faster / better solutions).

Again, thank you very much for your response! In my humble opinion, none of these reasons are good enough reasons for ZOS to trash content which they promised us.

^

Joy_Division · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@Lefty_Lucy

In the final analysis, you are right that nobody likes to be told X is coming and then be told "nevermind."

But I am not sure things are that easy. The Justice System was conceived under a different Zenimax regime under Paul Sage. In fact, much of the original development team isn't even there anymore (for ex. Nick Konkle head of combat team, Maria Aliprando who chaired the champion system left long ago). Is it fair to expect a new regime to be beholden to the policies and aspirations of their predecessors? Especially as their revenue stream is under a completely different model? I'm not sure it is. I most certainly would never accept any position in any business or political venture in which I am expected to be a caretaker for decisions made by other people.

The new regime must take into account scare resources as it is clear Zenimax's original aspirations beyond Justice System PvP, a subscription model, bi-monthly new content, mass scale functional PvP, to name a few, are beyond their means. As politicians must decide what to cut and how to raise new revenues when budgets are in the red, Zenimax must also do. So no spellcrafting and we can buy pointy hats from the Crown Store when the original development team promised ESO would never do just that. This is not stuff they necessarily wanted to do.

Do I think this is a "good" reason to have pulled the plug? No, I don't. Understandable perhaps. But still disappointing to those who were looking forward to it.

You are also correct that IF ZoS changed its development process from their habit of presenting us with fait accomplis developed in a secret laboratory that has zero transparency - a highly dubious practice that goes all the way back to the restrictive NDA from beta - this is a system that could eventually work and add depth to the game. While I would welcome a change to this company's modus operandi, there is still the question of priorities. For me, I would rather they deliver end-game raid content, create a meaningful and varied loot/gear system, get rid of AoE caps, fix the Templar's toppling charge skill, make it so I can mount in under 60 seconds of combat, do something about race imbalance, and deliver an interesting instanced battleground environment than Justice system PvP.

I understand my priorities are different, but that is why I voted as I did.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Joy_Division wrote: »

I most certainly would never accept any position in any business or political venture in which I am expected to be a caretaker for decisions made by other people.

Then you'd better create your own business from scratch, because holding on to commitments made by others is part of any job (unless you're the creator of that job). That's why there are contracts and laws for contracts : to prevent changes of minds or changes of people...

IMHO what's promised and announced and advertised should be considered as powerful as a contract... but alas, it's not, ZOS does not have to keep its word. Unfortunately for us.

As to priorities, I can only agree... If it was my decision, the new 12-man instance can be delayed till 2018... as long as there is PvP justice system... (I know, I know, I'm a minority, don't ... ;-) )

Tandor · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

I think with some simple rule sets, we could prevent this from becoming a pve slaughter fest. Here's my idea:
If you steal small things, like a bread or a drink and get caught, this should not make you attackable by other players. instead you gain a bounty just like it's now.

If your bounty reaches a certain level (maybe 5k), this should make you attackable.

This way you could easily avoid becoming attackable by not trying to get caught or paying off your bounty before it's too late.

If you attack someone, you should gain a bounty and the guards should take care of you. But if you kill someone, this should make you attackable.

With these simple rule sets it's possible to stay out of the pvp portion of the justice system by being careful, trying to be a good thief and by paying off your bounty before it reaches a certain level.

You can still be a small-time criminal and steal things to make money, and you can still punch a npc in the face if they say something stupid, but you cannot kill someone and expect to be safe. At this point you gotta pay with your blood.

What do you guys think about these ideas?

The problem is that you're still looking to exclude PvEers from PvE content in PvE areas. Why should a PvEer not be able to kill a NPC without being forced into PvP? Why should PvEers be forced out of part of the PvE content in PvE zones because PvP is brought outside the PvP zones?

I would have had absolutely no problem whatsoever with the PvP part of the Justice System, provided it was contained within the PvP zones, but that was never acceptable to the PvPers who wanted it as a form of open world PvP. The two playstyles simply don't mix well in the same areas and mixing them into the same content with PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas was only ever going to end badly.

After 2 years of only PvE updates and no PvP updates whatsoever, the only thing i can say is: deal with it.

I proposed these rule sets, so that people who really don't wanna be attacked have a way to fly under the radar, but there has to be a point where the system draws a line. If you wanna do certain things, then live with the consequences. It's as simple as that.

There have been a lot of changes to, or prompted by, PvP as well as a whole PvP DLC so there's no need to pretend the last couple of years have just been about PvE!

I can happily accept PvE consequences for PvE acts and PvP consequences for PvP acts, but I do have a problem with PvP consequences for PvE acts. But as you say, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Fortunately ZOS have drawn the line, and in my view they've done so correctly.

HeroOfNone · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Wild thought, but what if they scraped open world justice PVP for a battlegrounds style PVP? Guard team verses criminal team trying to kill assassination targets or steal from a bank in an instanced town. It's not the large scale that was planned; but would be easier to impliment, give some requested elements the community asked for, keeps pvp & pve seperate, and seems easier to package in a dlc

Cathexis · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Tandor wrote: »

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

I think with some simple rule sets, we could prevent this from becoming a pve slaughter fest. Here's my idea:
If you steal small things, like a bread or a drink and get caught, this should not make you attackable by other players. instead you gain a bounty just like it's now.

If your bounty reaches a certain level (maybe 5k), this should make you attackable.

This way you could easily avoid becoming attackable by not trying to get caught or paying off your bounty before it's too late.

If you attack someone, you should gain a bounty and the guards should take care of you. But if you kill someone, this should make you attackable.

With these simple rule sets it's possible to stay out of the pvp portion of the justice system by being careful, trying to be a good thief and by paying off your bounty before it reaches a certain level.

You can still be a small-time criminal and steal things to make money, and you can still punch a npc in the face if they say something stupid, but you cannot kill someone and expect to be safe. At this point you gotta pay with your blood.

What do you guys think about these ideas?

The problem is that you're still looking to exclude PvEers from PvE content in PvE areas. Why should a PvEer not be able to kill a NPC without being forced into PvP? Why should PvEers be forced out of part of the PvE content in PvE zones because PvP is brought outside the PvP zones?

I would have had absolutely no problem whatsoever with the PvP part of the Justice System, provided it was contained within the PvP zones, but that was never acceptable to the PvPers who wanted it as a form of open world PvP. The two playstyles simply don't mix well in the same areas and mixing them into the same content with PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas was only ever going to end badly.

After 2 years of only PvE updates and no PvP updates whatsoever, the only thing i can say is: deal with it.

I proposed these rule sets, so that people who really don't wanna be attacked have a way to fly under the radar, but there has to be a point where the system draws a line. If you wanna do certain things, then live with the consequences. It's as simple as that.

There have been a lot of changes to, or prompted by, PvP as well as a whole PvP DLC so there's no need to pretend the last couple of years have just been about PvE!

I can happily accept PvE consequences for PvE acts and PvP consequences for PvP acts, but I do have a problem with PvP consequences for PvE acts. But as you say, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Fortunately ZOS have drawn the line, and in my view they've done so correctly.

@Tandor I'm not sure where you were but the imperial city was a PvE dlc with occasional PvP

It has absolutely zero PvP objectives that affect the campaign or PvP rewards.

NateAssassin · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?

Joy_Division · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

HeroOfNone wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy

I think one thing that needs to be said is there is a perception that ZOS doesn't listen, but I think they do:
- ZOS doesn't listen to one particular voice, so it's hard to predict how certain changes will be implemented.
- ZOS is a private company competing against other MMOs, it's not in their best interest to be totally transparent with details on what they are working on.
- "Everyone agreeing", whenever I hear this it's your friends agreeing and no one else standing up to disagree. That is much different than getting actual support.
- While we can wish for something, if they haven't been able to find a way to make it without it being detrimental to the game's economy, I don't think they'd implement it.

As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.

I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

They "listen," but I would dispute the notion that we play a meaningful role in development.

This goes all the way back to Beta where they strictly enforced a very restrictive non-disclosure agreement that prevented Beta testers from saying anything substantive or meaningful about the game. This unquestionably led to a flawed process because when it was presented (finally) in an open Beta forum, critics were near unanimous in stating, "this isn't what we expected."

So Zenimax "listened" and instituted hastily conceived measures to appease the voices such as changing their original beginning to the story (yet the "starter" islands are still there), making it so you could quest in enemy alliance zones (which led to the awful Veteran grind and a highly disruptive role-playing experience), and this pattern has continued with the highly problematic Battle Spirit 50% change.

What role did we play in the creation of the champion system? None, aside from raising hell when another one of Zenimax's promises, that they would keep track of XP, was not followed. It is a highly flawed system that was immediately recognized as such the first day it was put on the PTS. What role did we play in the class balance changes for 1.6? None, aside from the collective general whining about DKs that prompted ZoS to over nerf the class. Again, within a few days of the PTS, it was quickly recognized by experienced players that sorcerers stacking magicka was too strong, DKs were highly compromised, and the lack of softcaps had already led to an undesirable time-to-kill. Seriously, all of this was pointed out back in February, go look at the old PTS posts. ZoS made a few trivial changes but we got stuck playing with the worse parts of these systems for almost a year.

And who can ignore 87% of us resoundingly said "NO" to AoE caps way back in April 2014, yet they are still here. That is not evidence that they listen, let alone consider its community a meaningful contributor in the development process.

Joy_Division · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I most certainly would never accept any position in any business or political venture in which I am expected to be a caretaker for decisions made by other people.

Then you'd better create your own business from scratch, because holding on to commitments made by others is part of any job (unless you're the creator of that job). That's why there are contracts and laws for contracts : to prevent changes of minds or changes of people...

IMHO what's promised and announced and advertised should be considered as powerful as a contract... but alas, it's not, ZOS does not have to keep its word. Unfortunately for us.

As to priorities, I can only agree... If it was my decision, the new 12-man instance can be delayed till 2018... as long as there is PvP justice system... (I know, I know, I'm a minority, don't ... ;-) )

Exaggerate much? Zenimax did not sign a legal binding document to deliver PvP to the Justice System.

It would be nice if companies, parents, politicians, friends, spouses, employees, etc., could deliver on their promises, but the reality is they cannot always do so and people are not taken to court for it.

altemriel · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I doubt that if ZOS would implement the new justice system, that they would do it mandatory for all. I believe they would make it optional (possible to turn of - participate or turn off - do not participate).

so people do not need to be affraid that somebody would gank them in the non-PVP zones if they do not want to participate in this!!

NobleNerd · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?

LOL... it is not like if a system like this was put in that it would punish those who choose not to partake in the feature.

Lefty_Lucy · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

Why do you think the PvP portion of the justice systme would work like that?... Ugh!

This is so disappointing.

Anzriel · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Joy_Division wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy

I think one thing that needs to be said is there is a perception that ZOS doesn't listen, but I think they do:
- ZOS doesn't listen to one particular voice, so it's hard to predict how certain changes will be implemented.
- ZOS is a private company competing against other MMOs, it's not in their best interest to be totally transparent with details on what they are working on.
- "Everyone agreeing", whenever I hear this it's your friends agreeing and no one else standing up to disagree. That is much different than getting actual support.
- While we can wish for something, if they haven't been able to find a way to make it without it being detrimental to the game's economy, I don't think they'd implement it.

As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.

I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

They "listen," but I would dispute the notion that we play a meaningful role in development.

This goes all the way back to Beta where they strictly enforced a very restrictive non-disclosure agreement that prevented Beta testers from saying anything substantive or meaningful about the game. This unquestionably led to a flawed process because when it was presented (finally) in an open Beta forum, critics were near unanimous in stating, "this isn't what we expected."

So Zenimax "listened" and instituted hastily conceived measures to appease the voices such as changing their original beginning to the story (yet the "starter" islands are still there), making it so you could quest in enemy alliance zones (which lead to the awful Veteran grind and a highly disruptive role-playing experience), and this pattern has continued with the highly problematic Battle Spirit 50% change.

What role did we play in the creation of the champion system? None, aside from raising hell when another one of Zenimax's promises, that they would keep track of XP, was not followed. It is a highly flawed system that was immediately recognized as such the first day it was put on the PTS. What role did we play in the class balance changes for 1.6? None, aside from teh collective general whining about DKs that propmted ZoS to over nerf the class. Again, within a few days of the PTS, it was quickly recognized by experienced players that sorcerers stacking magicka was too strong, DKs were highly compromised, and the lack of softcaps had already led to an undesirable time-to-kill. Seriously, all of this was pointed out back in February, go look at the old PTS posts. ZoS made a few trivial changes but we got stuck playing with the worse parts of these systems for almost a year.

And who can ignore 87% of us resoundingly said "NO" to AoE caps way back in April 2014, yet they are still here. That is not evidence that they listen, let alone consider its community a meaningful contributor in the development process.

This is certainly fair. They can listen all they want, but if in the end people explain why it will be better to do x than y, and have a compelling argument and it is completely ignored it doesn't matter in the end. I think people would be a little less frustrated with ZOS if they showed understanding, but it oftentimes seems like they don't understand the game very well. This coupled with them more or less ignoring the people who actually play on a regular basis and know the game well is why so many are negative. It's also while I hold out a bit of hope I can't be optimistic. The fact AoE caps are clearly an issue and we've heard so little, we also hear next to nothing about balance doesn't help things.

In the end when you have little to no dialogue with you playerbase, and a habit of dropping balance patches that continuously make balance even worse just makes them appear out of touch. I think a lot of people feel like ZOS just doesn't value any of our opinions, no matter how well thought out.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

Why do you think the PvP portion of the justice systme would work like that?... Ugh!

This is so disappointing.

This is the state of the community in this game since 4/4/14.

People don't use their brains.

srfrogg23 · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I've never played a game with ESO's non-existing "Justice PVP system", but I have played on PVP servers in other MMOs as well as games like Dark Souls. It never fails, developers can never seem to get the balance right and you always end up with at least one of 2 problems: either 1) bored players with high level characters spend an asinine amount of time corpse camping/griefing lowbies or 2) you have optimal PVP builds that have to be used to give yourself a fighting chance but sucks terribly for PvE and you have to decide if you want to put up with hassle of not being able to defend yourself against other players or be completely dead weight in co-op content.

Let's not forget that there is a massive chunk of the game that is dedicated to world PVP. Do you really want a situation where massive battles against armies of players aren't happening as often as they used to because a bunch of people would rather spend their time ganking lowbies outside the thieves den?

A final note, someone, as always, someone will find ways to break it by gaming the system and that will cause even more issues. It happens all the time because there people out there that aren't content to play games the way they were intended to be played, they've always got to find those "little shortcuts".

I think keeping PVP in that massive world PVP zone known as Cyrodiil is a good idea because it has been designed specifically for massive PVP content... As a compromise I do think a PVP arena would be a good addition to ESO and would easily fit the theme of a medieval fantasy game.

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Joy_Division wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I most certainly would never accept any position in any business or political venture in which I am expected to be a caretaker for decisions made by other people.

Then you'd better create your own business from scratch, because holding on to commitments made by others is part of any job (unless you're the creator of that job). That's why there are contracts and laws for contracts : to prevent changes of minds or changes of people...

IMHO what's promised and announced and advertised should be considered as powerful as a contract... but alas, it's not, ZOS does not have to keep its word. Unfortunately for us.

As to priorities, I can only agree... If it was my decision, the new 12-man instance can be delayed till 2018... as long as there is PvP justice system... (I know, I know, I'm a minority, don't ... ;-) )

Exaggerate much? Zenimax did not sign a legal binding document to deliver PvP to the Justice System.

It would be nice if companies, parents, politicians, friends, spouses, employees, etc., could deliver on their promises, but the reality is they cannot always do so and people are not taken to court for it.

You are, of course, right. What baffles me is that they announced this 1,5 years ago, continuously said they were working on it, however never shared details and all of a sudden (right before the presumably accompanying DLC's Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood) pulled the plug. Nobody's going to court, and for all the people who wanna see this (me included), all the forum warfare of today probably ain't gonna help. But it sure has made a dent in many people's esteem of and trust in ZOS.

I think it is very understandable people are disappointed by the way this went down, I think it is reasonable to assume a company following up on its promises, especially ones made in front of a large crowd, live-streamed to the internet. All in all this is just bad press, but reading your post on ZOS development process and player feedback, not without precedent.

Anzriel · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

ralonasan wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

Why do you think the PvP portion of the justice systme would work like that?... Ugh!

This is so disappointing.

This is the state of the community in this game since 4/4/14.

People don't use their brains.

I don't even think it's that. I just think it's the idiots who are the loudest. I rarely if ever hear people that are as unreasonable as some of the people on these forums in game, or in teamspeak. The issue is that a large chunk of the playerbase, which are reasonable people, completely ignore the forums. In all honesty I can't blame them. I do my best to see everyone's point of view even if I disagree but it legitimately sometimes feels like there are people who just cannot see beyond their own play-style and desires. In the end all we can do is continue to be reasonable and let those who do not want an honest conversation look bad. In the end if ZOS follows the lead of those who do not even want a dialogue then that is on them. We can always feel good about trying.

CloseLine · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I played Star Wars Galaxies as a bounty hunter. It was easily the most fun and engaging system in any MMO I've ever played. It made every "zone" important. It made your actions have weight. AND just like in the justice system there are very defined and avoidable actions that triggered a bounty. You didn't have to participate at all, especially post CU.

Did people cry? Of course. This is a video game. People cry. It's a fact of life.

HeroOfNone · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Joy_Division wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy

I think one thing that needs to be said is there is a perception that ZOS doesn't listen, but I think they do:
- ZOS doesn't listen to one particular voice, so it's hard to predict how certain changes will be implemented.
- ZOS is a private company competing against other MMOs, it's not in their best interest to be totally transparent with details on what they are working on.
- "Everyone agreeing", whenever I hear this it's your friends agreeing and no one else standing up to disagree. That is much different than getting actual support.
- While we can wish for something, if they haven't been able to find a way to make it without it being detrimental to the game's economy, I don't think they'd implement it.

As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.

I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

They "listen," but I would dispute the notion that we play a meaningful role in development.

This goes all the way back to Beta where they strictly enforced a very restrictive non-disclosure agreement that prevented Beta testers from saying anything substantive or meaningful about the game. This unquestionably led to a flawed process because when it was presented (finally) in an open Beta forum, critics were near unanimous in stating, "this isn't what we expected."

So Zenimax "listened" and instituted hastily conceived measures to appease the voices such as changing their original beginning to the story (yet the "starter" islands are still there), making it so you could quest in enemy alliance zones (which lead to the awful Veteran grind and a highly disruptive role-playing experience), and this pattern has continued with the highly problematic Battle Spirit 50% change.

What role did we play in the creation of the champion system? None, aside from raising hell when another one of Zenimax's promises, that they would keep track of XP, was not followed. It is a highly flawed system that was immediately recognized as such the first day it was put on the PTS. What role did we play in the class balance changes for 1.6? None, aside from teh collective general whining about DKs that propmted ZoS to over nerf the class. Again, within a few days of the PTS, it was quickly recognized by experienced players that sorcerers stacking magicka was too strong, DKs were highly compromised, and the lack of softcaps had already led to an undesirable time-to-kill. Seriously, all of this was pointed out back in February, go look at the old PTS posts. ZoS made a few trivial changes but we got stuck playing with the worse parts of these systems for almost a year.

And who can ignore 87% of us resoundingly said "NO" to AoE caps way back in April 2014, yet they are still here. That is not evidence that they listen, let alone consider its community a meaningful contributor in the development process.

Listening to out issues is not the same as making choices. I can disagree with several choices they made as well with allowing 80% telvar gain for killing a player, for not giving me a hardcore PVP campaign where if you die you get locked out till the campaign ends. However they have taken several thoughts in that feedback and implemented it.

Back in beta they were restrictive in their NDA, but little different than most other companies. As for "hastily made changes" I felt that most were responsive to the feedback given, something we haven't had on out alliance war or PVP groups since and one of the reasons I feel we don't see immediate feedback on certain requests. How many posts and votes on housing when we were only a few thousand verses how many on pvp arenas when we have a million? When I did my post a while back we were barely 250+ for it, while the housing posts back on the day were 300. Maybe a larger post has come up since, but it seems most of the pvp community isn't as vocal on the forums as the PVE community. Even this post reflects that in a way.

As for our influence on the champion system, we had some; but most folks were not into the numbers enough to understand the issues. Others, that did understand it and tested it on the PTS gave no feedback and started working on exploitative min/max builds, opting to take advantage of broken builds and mechanics. Seperate issue, but it's part of what leads to our current state of complaining and not giving feedback. Interestingly enough though when folks gave feedback on the champion system what I saw was most players complained about was the champion point conversation, in droves. In that case, with the amount of players saying they wanted more ZOS gave them what they wanted to a small degree.

As for the AOE cap removal they have mentioned implementing it on ESO live, but no post about it. Again, the difference in something in development and testing verses something they will implement in the next patch.

So, while the feed back from ZOS isn't immediate I do see the influence of community voices on the game. But, if you want something quicker or if you want something turned around you have to be pretty vocal to get a response.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

CloseLine wrote: »

I played Star Wars Galaxies as a bounty hunter. It was easily the most fun and engaging system in any MMO I've ever played. It made every "zone" important. It made your actions have weight. AND just like in the justice system there are very defined and avoidable actions that triggered a bounty. You didn't have to participate at all, especially post CU.

Did people cry? Of course. This is a video game. People cry. It's a fact of life.

Best game ever. RIP

Sallington · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

CloseLine wrote: »

I played Star Wars Galaxies as a bounty hunter. It was easily the most fun and engaging system in any MMO I've ever played. It made every "zone" important. It made your actions have weight. AND just like in the justice system there are very defined and avoidable actions that triggered a bounty. You didn't have to participate at all, especially post CU.

Did people cry? Of course. This is a video game. People cry. It's a fact of life.

Oh Pre-CU SWG. A true MMO if there ever was one.

Muizer · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Short version of Zenimax' statement is: "sorry, we're not capable of making it happen". In @Lefty_Lucy 's words: "We cannot do it right, so we won't do it at all". It's an admission of defeat. I'm not sure there's anything left to discuss. I voted I was in favour, but that's going by the assumption they could get it right, but I'm afraid that's a purely hypothetical situation.

Had the option been there my answer would have been "I would have liked to see it happen, but I do not believe ZoS can pull it off"

Sallington · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Muizer wrote: »

Short version of Zenimax' statement is: "sorry, we're not capable of making it happen". In @Lefty_Lucy 's words: "We cannot do it right, so we won't do it at all". It's an admission of defeat. I'm not sure there's anything left to discuss. I voted I was in favour, but that's going by the assumption they could get it right, but I'm afraid that's a purely hypothetical situation.

It's becoming more obvious that they just don't know how to make an MMO, and will just keep releasing solo PvE storyline DLC.

Anzriel · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Muizer wrote: »

Short version of Zenimax' statement is: "sorry, we're not capable of making it happen". In @Lefty_Lucy 's words: "We cannot do it right, so we won't do it at all". It's an admission of defeat. I'm not sure there's anything left to discuss. I voted I was in favour, but that's going by the assumption they could get it right, but I'm afraid that's a purely hypothetical situation.

Yes, but that's part of the reason for this thread. I don't think anyone here believes the justice system pvp will be brought back, even if we hope. That doesn't mean we can try to force ZoS to realize they have a playerbase with ideas that can help them if they'd only communicate. Maybe in the end they'd feel it still wouldn't fit, and that's fine. What irks so many of us is that they just give up or take the lazy route on things when simply talking to a few knowledgeable people could help things. Instead we're constantly left in the dark until they drop these bombs on us.

danno8 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Despite my comment in the original thread seemingly against a PvP Justice System, I am actually for it. The biggest problem is doing it properly and Joy_Division summed it up very well on page 1 of this thread for me.

Now that may seem like I am letting ZoS off the hook and expecting too little of them, but...I honestly don't have faith that they could pull off a system where griefing is absent, only players who want to participate can, it can't be abused in some way, either financially or maliciously, V16's aren't killing level 5's who are trying to RP thieves etc...

There are ways I think it could work, that ZoS could handle the development of, but I think those ways are going to be less than dynamic, and far less fun and interesting than you imagine OP.

I have played Archeage, which did have an open world(ish) PvP justice system, and people would find ways to grief, even in safe zones. They found way to get you flagged so they can kill you. I didn't mind so much though, because it was a part of what I signed up for when I decided to play the game. So I do have some experience.

In the end I think this cancellation was an introspective moment for ZoS. A realization that they would not be able to deliver the kind of system that they (and probably you) imagined, without opening up a whole new world of bugs and broken content. I think that is exactly what their comment "When introducing new systems to the game, our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems" is referring to. To me this means "We don't have the ability to do this".

Gonza · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I think that Justice System could add a very fun pvp mechanic outside of Cyrodiil, it could be small scale or a simple duel. Of course that people shouldnt be forced to being attacked or attack other people if they dont want it.

You can only be attacked by another player if you a have a very big bounty, so local guards cant deal with you and they will need an specialist (Players). By the other hand, thiefs can be avenged with contracts to murderers (Dark Brotherhood).

In this way, thiefs(players) will know that they are being hunted because of his Big bounty and protectors of the law(players) will know too because of a message with a Black Hand

.

Good luck!