Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

TheBull wrote: »

@ZOS_MattFiror

Matt, this is one of those moments in a mmorpgs history where people will look back and point to. You stand to lose a large portion of your extremely loyal fan base. Above and beyond the system itself that loyal fan base has also lost trust.

Well, they'd stand to lose a lot of their customers if it was implemented in the wrong way too, so it's for the best that it's not put in, imo. Just look at the epic fail that's IC, it's completely dead except for a few grinders and gankers on PC NA at least.

zoltarg

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I think adding justice PVP in a specific way would be easy to implement, unexploitable and allows players to be "safe".

• If a player incurs a large bounty, 1000? they are added to bounty board (server side list of players)
• Bounty hunters have to go to a bounty board to get quest to kill x criminals
• All currently killable criminals status is shown with an icon by their name and they appear yellow highlighted to you now (if you signed up to bounty board quest)
• Kill players and return to bounty board to get points towards a title based skill line or some other rewards

Gold or other rewards can be tricky to implement sure, because of exploits and having friends let you kill them on purpose. But putting timers on players being able to reappear on the bounty list would help to curb that. After all, not all crime is reported and posted instantly.

And you can technically exploit AP and have friends kill you over and over in cyrodiil, but code is already implemented and timers to curb that.

Add in the tutorials tooltips reminders that you will be killable soon with your current bounty etc.

You can already witness people killing innocents or running from guards in the city right now! Get that PVE out of my cities if you don't want PVP in the cities!

So a few extra encounters of players killing criminals while you are crafting is not going to be that much different, and only add to the immersion and interest IMO.

With this idea you won't accidentally steal a few things next to the guild trader and be insta killed. And if you want to participate you can get cool titles by hunting for criminals or maybe some rewards too.

So basically use all of the mechanics and models that are already in the game, make one icon and tweak some code.

And BTW, Thanks for the vid LEFTY!

anitajoneb17_ESO

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

TheBull wrote: »

@ZOS_MattFiror

Matt, this is one of those moments in a mmorpgs history where people will look back and point to. You stand to lose a large portion of your extremely loyal fan base. Above and beyond the system itself that loyal fan base has also lost trust.

Well, they'd stand to lose a lot of their customers if it was implemented in the wrong way too, so it's for the best that it's not put in, imo. Just look at the epic fail that's IC, it's completely dead except for a few grinders and gankers on PC NA at least.

Always wondered why some people consider IC a "fail". Area is 6 months old. It's normal that it is not as populated as in the first weeks. It was never meant as a place of neverending warfare like Cyrodiil. Would you consider Deshaan or Stonefalls (gold version) a "fail" because it's rather empty now ? People just go there as they see fit, of course they don't "gather" there.
I say IC is normally populated for a 6 month old zone. That's what makes it playable, too : it's meant to be a stealth/ganking place, if people are zerging there it looses its spirit.

I love IC and I know many people do. Stop calling it a fail just because you don't like it.

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anitajoneb17_ESO

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

TheBull wrote: »

@ZOS_MattFiror

Matt, this is one of those moments in a mmorpgs history where people will look back and point to. You stand to lose a large portion of your extremely loyal fan base. Above and beyond the system itself that loyal fan base has also lost trust.

Very true.
I'm afraid from now on whenever I'll hear or read from you ZOS : "bear with us guys, hang on, we've ran into an issue, but it's coming, we're working on it, please be patient..."

I'll have that sentence in mind : We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System.


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ralonasan

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

@ZOS_MattFiror

Matt, this is one of those moments in a mmorpgs history where people will look back and point to. You stand to lose a large portion of your extremely loyal fan base. Above and beyond the system itself that loyal fan base has also lost trust.

Well, they'd stand to lose a lot of their customers if it was implemented in the wrong way too, so it's for the best that it's not put in, imo. Just look at the epic fail that's IC, it's completely dead except for a few grinders and gankers on PC NA at least.

Always wondered why some people consider IC a "fail". Area is 6 months old. It's normal that it is not as populated as in the first weeks. It was never meant as a place of neverending warfare like Cyrodiil. Would you consider Deshaan or Stonefalls (gold version) a "fail" because it's rather empty now ? People just go there as they see fit, of course they don't "gather" there.
I say IC is normally populated for a 6 month old zone. That's what makes it playable, too : it's meant to be a stealth/ganking place, if people are zerging there it looses its spirit.

I love IC and I know many people do. Stop calling it a fail just because you don't like it.

.

IC wasn't a fail. It was incomplete. Or I guess it IS incomplete.

blur

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@Lefty_Lucy
This is from @Xael who I think got muted for standing his ground against those who try and facilitate change through whining and falsehoods:


Hey bro, Ultima Online (before it was ruined by carebears) had one of the best "Justice Systems." This could be due to the fact it was the first (true) mmorpg AND because since UO, players have begged for consensual PvP and safeguards against other players.
PvP, true PvP (not dueling or instanced), is almost dead in MMORPGs. The last game with hardcore PvP was Age of Conan and even it got nerfed when the carebears complained too much.

In UO (ultima online) if you stole an item unsuccessfully it would flag you as criminal to everyone. Meaning everyone could see you performed a criminal action. That said, anyone could attack you without worrying about guards showing up to kill them. If you were successful at stealing, you were still attackable, but people couldn't see it by just looking at you. Either way, any player could act as the hammer of justice and attack you, kill you, and loot your inventory. Now I am not saying full player loot should be a thing, I am simply in favor of bringing more realism into ESO. That and revitalizing some type of PvP. I would have loved them adding the Justice System.

As I told you several months ago before IC launched, Justice System is dead in the water and so is Spellcrafting. Yes I know it (SC) was mentioned in the blog yesterday. I don't care, it's dead and we all know it. These 2 things died when Nick Konkle left ZOS almost a year ago. Paul Sage leaving was probably the nail in the coffin. We know this because of how Justice System was implemented.

If you recall, it was mentioned by ZOS that they were going to drop half of the Justice System and see how it works out and then put the pvp part on PTS. Since then, there hasn't been a single word on the JS. Moreover 2 key people quit ZOS (Sage / Konkle). Did we hear anything from ZOS? Nope. In typical ZOS fashion they remain secretive and quiet on the matter despite players asking. Hell, most people didn't even know these guys quit or even existed (I remember you didn't know who they even were when I whispered it to you). I remember though, as I remember the July 2014 Quakecon where they introduced the damned things along with IC

Most of us hardcore pvpers were holding on for 3 things:

1. Imperial City (modeled after Darkness Falls to a degree)
2. The Justice System
3. Spellcrafting

It took over a year to implement IC (we know why, PC failure, console launch and key ZOS leaving) and look how that went? Now we hear (officially anyway) JS is dead and SC is on the back-burner indefinitely (which might as well be forever). Quite frankly, this is fine because let's be honest, look at Monday's update. They can't get a damn thing right, not even simple non content updates. I can't imagine the state of the game if they decided to add all these things. It's going to be a complete shitshow.

The Justice System had a lot of potential but the current state of the game and the influx of whiners and carebears are never going to let this happen. Notwithstanding the utter shortcomings of the ZOS team and their inability to handle what we already have.

Lastly, as it stands currently, the Justice System is incomplete and half-assed (typical ZOS fashion). Aside from the achievements they linked to it, it's pretty much worthless. In fact the entire loot table associated with it was a direct nerf to those who farmed motifs and other useful items. Now we have a second loot table which acts as a placeholder for something else. This of course makes motifs like Daedric, AE, Barb, and Primal more rare. Go figure they started selling them on the Crown Store shortly after this was implemented. Kind of makes you think it's intended. Some of the passives are nice, however the system as it stands should just be removed. It's nothing more than a reminder of ZOS ongoing failures.

Shame on you ZOS for your lack of transparency. Shame on you.
How many people would have left knowing you were not going to follow through with these things?
Oh wait, that's why you NEVER said a damned thing! That's why you remained quiet when "@ tagged" on the forum and directly asked about these topics. That's why you ignored pointed and direct questions about meaningful content and instead answered fluff questions from ultimajoe about silly lore questions. Shame on you.

Cathexis

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I am for it, and I agree there is absolutely no reason why this could not be implemented in a way that is balanced and respects players who do not want to participate in pvp but want to commit in game crime. It's crazy to say it couldn't be implemented successfully as distinct from pve in pve zones - it's a video game, you can program the game with specific boundaries that prevent undesirable overlap of player bases.

I love pvp, it is what attracted me to this game when it was released, but when they do this kind of thing I feel like quiting. It is not okay for Zen to make large promises, go half way, be silent for months and then say "oh were not going to do that anymore." For those of us who wanted the content (many of us by the looks of the poll), it is totally unfair to prey upon our hopes that way.

nimander99

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

It would have been cool, if like you said, it was implemented properly.

That being said I'm not even remotely surprised it was scrapped. I've literally been saying since the day justice system dropped on pts that they would ultimately scrap it.

I believe Zenimax has performed triage @Lefty_Lucy . They have decided not to tackle this in favor of other work... I honestly think that's the real reason.

Ultimately I agree with you, it adds additional layers to the game and I am never against a broader spectrum of options for gameplay even though I really only pvp if I absolutely have to(IC).

I can tell you are pretty bummed about this and I feel your pain, hope this isn't the straw that broke the camels back for you. I've always appreciated your commentary.

Tandor

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

I think with some simple rule sets, we could prevent this from becoming a pve slaughter fest. Here's my idea:

• If you steal small things, like a bread or a drink and get caught, this should not make you attackable by other players. instead you gain a bounty just like it's now.
• If your bounty reaches a certain level (maybe 5k), this should make you attackable.
• This way you could easily avoid becoming attackable by not trying to get caught or paying off your bounty before it's too late.
• If you attack someone, you should gain a bounty and the guards should take care of you. But if you kill someone, this should make you attackable.
• With these simple rule sets it's possible to stay out of the pvp portion of the justice system by being careful, trying to be a good thief and by paying off your bounty before it reaches a certain level.
• You can still be a small-time criminal and steal things to make money, and you can still punch a npc in the face if they say something stupid, but you cannot kill someone and expect to be safe. At this point you gotta pay with your blood.

What do you guys think about these ideas?

The problem is that you're still looking to exclude PvEers from PvE content in PvE areas. Why should a PvEer not be able to kill a NPC without being forced into PvP? Why should PvEers be forced out of part of the PvE content in PvE zones because PvP is brought outside the PvP zones?

I would have had absolutely no problem whatsoever with the PvP part of the Justice System, provided it was contained within the PvP zones, but that was never acceptable to the PvPers who wanted it as a form of open world PvP. The two playstyles simply don't mix well in the same areas and mixing them into the same content with PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas was only ever going to end badly.

TheBonesXXX

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I was looking forward to more dynamic and depth in the game. Currently we have limited options as PvPers, Three Banners War has been trivialized because lack of Arena and small group areas.

NobleNerd

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

When I heard about the idea of the PvP Justice System for the game I thought back to the days of ArcheAge and their Bounty System. There was much that XL Games got right with that side of the game and I was excited to see some real depth and possibly player controlled content coming to ESO.

It can be done and it can be done in a way that even the Carebears would not have to be inconvenienced, but remember if you choose to steal you will have consequences.... period!

Now reading that they are pretty much abandoning this element has caused me some conflict and it is looking like I will be looking elsewhere for a rich and involved PvP content in an MMO... even Cyrodiil has become more and more disappointing for rich PvP content. It has become nothing but huge AP Zergs on all sides just killing each other and ignoring any objectives or strategies in the zones.

Lefty_Lucy

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@Joy_Division - Thank you very much for your detailed response. I really enjoyed reading what you had to say. If you don't mind, my thoughts --

Joy_Division wrote: »

Hi Lefty!

Much of it comes down to what seems to be little resources and manpower ZOS has available to them.

...

Sorry, I love PvP and do it just about every night, but those are my priorities.

This is a good observation, one which I have also realized. ZOS certainly appears to be understaffed when it comes to software development. However, in my opinion, it is unacceptable to commit to the development of a PvP Justice System and then go back on your word. If you say you're going to give me X, I expect X, I don't expect "nevermind".

Additionally, why should we as ESO gamers have to take into account the staffing levels of the developers when we think about upcoming updates? We shouldn't have to care about this. ZOS should increase staffing to support all of their projects. They shouldn't force us to pick and choose between content which they promised us. I understand prioritizing one update over another, but completely dropping something because of staffing (or difficulty - but we'll touch on that later)... I can't get behind that.

The limiting factor here comes down to ZOS's funding for ESO. Does their budget support hiring more/better programmers? This is also something we shouldn't have to worry about when thinking about the future of the game, in my opinion. That's not our problem.

Joy_Division wrote: »

However, I think you are underestimating the difficulty in making the PvP component exactly what you are saying, a in-depth and interesting system that adds substance to the Tamriel Zenimax has created.

I have a background in software development, so I can relate to the difficulty of this task. I know it's not easy. Same goes for many of the problems you listed in your original post. Game development is complex. You almost can't touch anything in the code without impacting something else. I fully understand this.

However, I have no sympathy for ZOS regarding the difficulty of implementing content which they promised us. They should not have promised us anything without fully understanding their limits as a development team. But they did promise us something, so they need to do at least attempt it! Give it to us on the PTS. Start small. Start somewhere! This is their job.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You also kept saying that the ESO community could help Zenimax implement this right. Yes, they could. But what gives you the impression that Zenimax works in such a way? They do NOT consult us in their development, have a history of implementing stuff/changes that nobody has ever asked for (and not even putting it in the patch notes), and they only make superficial revisions during the PTS process.

This is an excellent point. Thank you for making it. I made the statement that we could help ZOS in development with the understanding that this really hasn't been done before. This is a proposal for change. ZOS should change how they are implementing changes to their game by opening up two-way communication channels between the community and the developers.

This is a win-win for everyone. Players benefit by receiving content that should be more fair and balanced, and ZOS benefits from having multiple minds thinking about their development problems (i.e. faster / better solutions).


Again, thank you very much for your response! In my humble opinion, none of these reasons are good enough reasons for ZOS to trash content which they promised us.

Neoauspex

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I agree with the concerns regarding lag, and would like to see that fixed before any new systems are added. I also agree with the sentiment that people who don't want to take part in PvP should not be forced to do so. I cannot fathom why anyone would assume that these possibilities are mutually exclusive and vote to not even try. I find it hard to believe that anybody without the imagination or courage to give ANY content additions a try would even find the PvE content of this game enjoyable nor bother with a multiplayer online game at all.

anitajoneb17_ESO

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

The limiting factor here comes down to ZOS's funding for ESO. Does their budget support hiring more/better programmers? This is also something we shouldn't have to worry about when thinking about the future of the game, in my opinion. That's not our problem.

I agree that ZOS should not simply give up like that on something they promised (and promised on an official worldwide event, not in small lines hidden in a forum somewhere)
I agree that technical difficulty should not be our primary concern : it's their job. Especially since other games have made it before, they should be able to do it.

HOWEVER... you can't say on one hand "we will help you" and on the other hand say "your constraints are none of our business". Budget/Staff limitations ARE realities that have to be taken into account and that we cannot ignore if we want to "help them". These limitations are probably out of their own hands... ZOS is part of a big corporation, it's not CD Projekt red...

I truly wish @ZOS_GinaBruno will get whoever made that decision regarding justice system PvP to come to ESO live the day after tomorrow to explain and discuss, and I wish they would invite you (Lefty) on voice to discuss this, should there be even a slight chance of them changing their mind. You have the right arguments and the right tone.



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ralonasan

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

blur wrote: »

@Lefty_Lucy
This is from @Xael who I think got muted for standing his ground against those who try and facilitate change through whining and falsehoods:


Hey bro, Ultima Online (before it was ruined by carebears) had one of the best "Justice Systems." This could be due to the fact it was the first (true) mmorpg AND because since UO, players have begged for consensual PvP and safeguards against other players.
PvP, true PvP (not dueling or instanced), is almost dead in MMORPGs. The last game with hardcore PvP was Age of Conan and even it got nerfed when the carebears complained too much.

In UO (ultima online) if you stole an item unsuccessfully it would flag you as criminal to everyone. Meaning everyone could see you performed a criminal action. That said, anyone could attack you without worrying about guards showing up to kill them. If you were successful at stealing, you were still attackable, but people couldn't see it by just looking at you. Either way, any player could act as the hammer of justice and attack you, kill you, and loot your inventory. Now I am not saying full player loot should be a thing, I am simply in favor of bringing more realism into ESO. That and revitalizing some type of PvP. I would have loved them adding the Justice System.

As I told you several months ago before IC launched, Justice System is dead in the water and so is Spellcrafting. Yes I know it (SC) was mentioned in the blog yesterday. I don't care, it's dead and we all know it. These 2 things died when Nick Konkle left ZOS almost a year ago. Paul Sage leaving was probably the nail in the coffin. We know this because of how Justice System was implemented.

If you recall, it was mentioned by ZOS that they were going to drop half of the Justice System and see how it works out and then put the pvp part on PTS. Since then, there hasn't been a single word on the JS. Moreover 2 key people quit ZOS (Sage / Konkle). Did we hear anything from ZOS? Nope. In typical ZOS fashion they remain secretive and quiet on the matter despite players asking. Hell, most people didn't even know these guys quit or even existed (I remember you didn't know who they even were when I whispered it to you). I remember though, as I remember the July 2014 Quakecon where they introduced the damned things along with IC

Most of us hardcore pvpers were holding on for 3 things:

1. Imperial City (modeled after Darkness Falls to a degree)
2. The Justice System
3. Spellcrafting

It took over a year to implement IC (we know why, PC failure, console launch and key ZOS leaving) and look how that went? Now we hear (officially anyway) JS is dead and SC is on the back-burner indefinitely (which might as well be forever). Quite frankly, this is fine because let's be honest, look at Monday's update. They can't get a damn thing right, not even simple non content updates. I can't imagine the state of the game if they decided to add all these things. It's going to be a complete shitshow.

The Justice System had a lot of potential but the current state of the game and the influx of whiners and carebears are never going to let this happen. Notwithstanding the utter shortcomings of the ZOS team and their inability to handle what we already have.

Lastly, as it stands currently, the Justice System is incomplete and half-assed (typical ZOS fashion). Aside from the achievements they linked to it, it's pretty much worthless. In fact the entire loot table associated with it was a direct nerf to those who farmed motifs and other useful items. Now we have a second loot table which acts as a placeholder for something else. Some of the passives are nice, however the system as it stands should just be removed. It's nothing more than a reminder of ZOS ongoing failures.

Shame on you ZOS for your lack of transparency. Shame on you.
How many people would have left knowing you were not going to follow through with these things?
Oh wait, that's why you NEVER said a damned thing! That's why you remained quiet when "@ tagged" on the forum and directly asked about these topics. That's why you ignored pointed and direct questions about meaningful content and instead answered fluff questions from ultimajoe about silly lore questions. Shame on you.

This is all anyone needs to say on this topic.

SturgeHammer

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I'd much rather have the open world PVP fixed first. If ZOS could work on other forms of PVP at the same time as improving Cyrodiil I'd be all for Justice System PVP and battle grounds, but I have little faith that it would be feasible. As it stands the PVP community would be doing itself a major disservice by splitting the devs' focus, as it would eliminate all hope of having 1 functioning PVP system in favor of 2 to 3 broken systems.

Lefty_Lucy

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I'm very disappointed in the amount of responses in this thread which have completely ignored the whole purpose of the thread.

I made this thread because I saw people commenting in other threads saying things like "I don't like PvP, so I don't think the Justice System PvP should be a thing".

If you read my original post (or watched my video) before voting, maybe you would understand what I was trying to accomplish with this thread. I was trying to get rid of your assumptions before you voted on this topic.

How do you know you would be forced to PvP? How do you know you wouldn't still be able to steal things without getting griefed?

Come on guys. I understand not reading a long post, but I made a video too... Just listen...

Lefty_Lucy

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

HOWEVER... you can't say on one hand "we will help you" and on the other hand say "your constraints are none of our business". Budget/Staff limitations ARE realities that have to be taken into account and that we cannot ignore if we want to "help them".

I understand that their constraints are realities, I guess I could have worded my point differently. We should not be getting the floor ripped out from underneath us because of their constraints. They should have known their constraints before committing to content development.

I want to help them because I am passionate about this game. Even though I don't think I should care about their staffing levels, I do still want this game to succeed; for that reason, I would be overjoyed to be able to help.

Alucardo

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

I'm very disappointed in the amount of responses in this thread which have completely ignored the whole purpose of the thread.

I made this thread because I saw people commenting in other threads saying things like "I don't like PvP, so I don't think the Justice System PvP should be a thing".

If you read my original post (or watched my video) before voting, maybe you would understand what I was trying to accomplish with this thread. I was trying to get rid of your assumptions before you voted on this topic.

How do you know you would be forced to PvP? How do you know you wouldn't still be able to steal things without getting griefed?

Come on guys. I understand not reading a long post, but I made a video too... Just listen...

This is the problem - these people don't want to understand, and sadly we can't force them to. Like the clown who said he wants PVPers to just leave. He obviously doesn't care for anything with "PVP" in the title at all, so won't even listen to what you have to say. A lot of this community sucks Lefty, but you're too nice of a guy to see that.

altemriel

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

great video @Lefty_Lucy, I totally agree.


If ZOS would make the new justice system optional, not mandatory, but so, that players could turn it on if they want to participate, or turn it off (default would be turned off) if they don`t, that would bring an interresting new element to the game and if ZOS would implement it right, it would not add disbalance, but add a new interresting thing, which could attract people to the game!

- make it optional to participate
- make it only if the bounty is at a certain very high level


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober

Alucardo

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

altemriel wrote: »

great video @Lefty_Lucy, I totally agree.


If ZOS would make the new justice system optional, not mandatory, but so, that players could turn it on if they want to participate, or turn it off (default would be turned off) if they don`t, that would bring an interresting new element to the game and if ZOS would implement it right, it would not add disbalance, but add a new interresting thing, which could attract people to the game!

- make it optional to participate
- make it only if the bounty is at a certain very high level

This guy gets it ^

HeroOfNone

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy

I think one thing that needs to be said is there is a perception that ZOS doesn't listen, but I think they do:
- ZOS doesn't listen to one particular voice, so it's hard to predict how certain changes will be implemented.
- ZOS is a private company competing against other MMOs, it's not in their best interest to be totally transparent with details on what they are working on.
- "Everyone agreeing", whenever I hear this it's your friends agreeing and no one else standing up to disagree. That is much different than getting actual support.
- While we can wish for something, if they haven't been able to find a way to make it without it being detrimental to the game's economy, I don't think they'd implement it.

As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.


I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

blur

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

HeroOfNone wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy



As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.


I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

As for dialogue they have had none. It's been a year and mums the word? No, they have done everything in their power to remain quiet on these matters. They knew back when Paul Sage and Nick Konkle left they were not going to move forward with this. @Xael was quite correct in his above post. When they did not follow through with putting it on pts the following weeks after their post was a good indicator it was dead.

Zenimax does not discuss things. They say as little as possible with the occasional teaser followed by the "we can't/won't be discussing this right now." They are the absolute worst when it comes to transparency.

Alucardo

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Bring it into Cyrodiil first! Players can check the bounty board on other players in their campaign that have bounties on their head. If they kill them, they collect.
It's not ideal, but it's a start, and will keep QQing to a minimum. Would be pretty awkward if the bounty you are to collect is on someone from your faction.
To easily detect those with bounties, a red padlock appears next to their name when you target them with how much their bounty is worth.
You could one step further and add bounties if people kill others while inside towns in Cyrodiil. Everything stays the same - no guards or any other penalties, just a bounty.
I just want some kind of PVP justice system like we were told god damn it.

Tandor

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

altemriel wrote: »

great video @Lefty_Lucy, I totally agree.


If ZOS would make the new justice system optional, not mandatory, but so, that players could turn it on if they want to participate, or turn it off (default would be turned off) if they don`t, that would bring an interresting new element to the game and if ZOS would implement it right, it would not add disbalance, but add a new interresting thing, which could attract people to the game!

- make it optional to participate
- make it only if the bounty is at a certain very high level

That would be fine if it was optional irrespective of the bounty level, but previously supporters of the Enforcement system have tried to argue that it should be optional only in the sense that it doesn't kick in until a certain bounty level or if NPCs are killed rather than merely attacked, and that isn't making it optional in any real sense. Rather it would be forcing players either to PvP or opt out of at least a part of the PvE content of the Justice System. Is that what you're suggesting or would you want it to be truly optional irrespective of the bounty level?

There are other factors of course, such as mixing PvP and PvE content in the same areas, performance issues in towns and cities, and the whole principle of having open world PvP etc.

anitajoneb17_ESO

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

HeroOfNone wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy

I think one thing that needs to be said is there is a perception that ZOS doesn't listen, but I think they do:
- ZOS doesn't listen to one particular voice, so it's hard to predict how certain changes will be implemented.

What I understand is that we've been patient and polite. I didn't come to the forums every week to say how impatient I was to see the PvP part of justice system implemented and how amazing it would be.
I did not harass ZOS every week with questions such as "when is it coming ?" "how is it going to be designed ?"
I thought it would come when ready and shut my mouth. Shouldn't have.
Rude and noisy "PvP arena" people got what they wanted (I have nothing against arena guys, just against the way some people acted about it...)
We don't get what was officially promised, announced and advertised. We were respectful and quiet. And ignored, or simply forgotten.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.

It's not something that was "discussed" or "considered", it's something that was promised and advertised. Big difference.
Obviously, the issues mentioned as "reasons" (balance, exploits...) should all have been considered BEFORE making any promises.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

Let's hope so, but I'm not sure I'd fall for another "we're working on it guys, it's coming, be patient"...

MADshadowmans_Ghost

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Tandor wrote: »

show previous quotes

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

I think with some simple rule sets, we could prevent this from becoming a pve slaughter fest. Here's my idea:

• If you steal small things, like a bread or a drink and get caught, this should not make you attackable by other players. instead you gain a bounty just like it's now.
• If your bounty reaches a certain level (maybe 5k), this should make you attackable.
• This way you could easily avoid becoming attackable by not trying to get caught or paying off your bounty before it's too late.
• If you attack someone, you should gain a bounty and the guards should take care of you. But if you kill someone, this should make you attackable.
• With these simple rule sets it's possible to stay out of the pvp portion of the justice system by being careful, trying to be a good thief and by paying off your bounty before it reaches a certain level.
• You can still be a small-time criminal and steal things to make money, and you can still punch a npc in the face if they say something stupid, but you cannot kill someone and expect to be safe. At this point you gotta pay with your blood.

What do you guys think about these ideas?

The problem is that you're still looking to exclude PvEers from PvE content in PvE areas. Why should a PvEer not be able to kill a NPC without being forced into PvP? Why should PvEers be forced out of part of the PvE content in PvE zones because PvP is brought outside the PvP zones?

I would have had absolutely no problem whatsoever with the PvP part of the Justice System, provided it was contained within the PvP zones, but that was never acceptable to the PvPers who wanted it as a form of open world PvP. The two playstyles simply don't mix well in the same areas and mixing them into the same content with PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas was only ever going to end badly.

After 2 years of only PvE updates and no PvP updates whatsoever, the only thing i can say is: deal with it.

I proposed these rule sets, so that people who really don't wanna be attacked have a way to fly under the radar, but there has to be a point where the system draws a line. If you wanna do certain things, then live with the consequences. It's as simple as that.

MornaBaine

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

From the earliest mention of the justice system on ESO Live with Paul Sage we were assured that no one would be "forced" to PvP and we were told they were withholding implementation of that part of the justice system while they worked that out. I hate to think they were just too dumb to figure it out and that's why they scrapped it. It SEEMS to me that all that would have been necessary was a flagging system such as is already in place for dueling in many MMOs. If WoW and SWTOR can figure it out and implement it I have a hard time understanding why ZOS can't.

The PvP portion of the Justice system was the one thing a lot of people were really excited about. It's a shame to see ZOS fail so hard regarding it.

HeroOfNone

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

blur wrote: »

show previous quotes

HeroOfNone wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Lefty_Lucy



As for dialogue, that's what that post was and this post is. They didn't wait till it slipped out by accident in some interview and they have been upfront that "we tried, but we can't deliver what we previously discussed". What would folks have preferred when they realized this? Not tell us? At least give some credit for being up front about it.


I don't think this precludes them from implementing a PVP justice system in other ways or possibly offering it in limited fashion to major hub cities. Ideas like this though will likely take time and need support however.

As for dialogue they have had none. It's been a year and mums the word? No, they have done everything in their power to remain quiet on these matters. They knew back when Paul Sage and Nick Konkle left they were not going to move forward with this. @Xael was quite correct in his above post. When they did not follow through with putting it on pts the following weeks after their post was a good indicator it was dead.

Zenimax does not discuss things. They say as little as possible with the occasional teaser followed by the "we can't/won't be discussing this right now." They are the absolute worst when it comes to transparency.

It's been mentioned and discussed during ESO Live on occasion, but what is discussed there is not set in stone. It has not been written about on the forums or news posts past they are working on it, more than likely because they did not want to make something, post about it, change it, and post again, leading to confusing information about which direction they are going. If you reach out and ask about something they are pretty open to their player base, but they are very tight lipped about most changes until they are tested, confirmed, and ready to go.

anitajoneb17_ESO

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Alucardo wrote: »

Bring it into Cyrodiil first! Players can check the bounty board on other players in their campaign that have bounties on their head. If they kill them, they collect.

Sorry Alucardo but that's nonsensical. There are 2 places in Tamriel where justice system doesn't apply : Cyrodiil and Coldharbour.

In Cyrodiil, because it's a war zone. Law/Justice don't apply in war zones (that's even imho the basic definition of war... )
In Coldharbour because it's not on Nirn, and the daedra certainly don't care about Nirn laws and their reinforcement.

As convenient as it could appear technically to have the PvP part of justice system be implemented in Cyrodiil, it makes no sense story-wise.