Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

NeillMcAttack · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Iluvrien wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

I haven't played a game where there is a PvP Justice system, but I have played ones where I have taken part in Justice type situations in wPvP enabled systems. Including this in the voting options is an appeal to authority: "You only get your views on the subject taken seriously if you have done it in the past and haven't liked it". No. Just no.

Your response to the person who didn't want to see PvP going on was also lacking. "Come on dude" isn't a reasoned response. It isn't playing devil's advocate. It is dismissing the concern of another player based on your own bias. The same goes for not having heard "a single reason that has convinced" you. There have been plenty of reasons given since launch. I suspect the issue is that you dismiss them based on your desire for this system, rather than that they are actually bad, or even unconvincing, arguments.

And, for the record, the reason I am glad that this isn't being implemented is because I don't want to see it. Ever. This game was launched without wPvP. If they are going to introduce it then they are going to need to make a much stronger argument than anyone has done before I will accept how this will impact on my own play time. The current version of the justice system already does, sometimes when I am in a bank, the entire environment explodes as some hapless idiot takes on the guards in there. You think that contributes to my ability to critically consider what I should/shouldn't keep... or how best to fulfill a crafting order? Do you honestly believe that this will occur less if the PvP part of the justice system is implemented?

Quite simply, unless someone can promise that all Justice flagged players would be phased out of my sight, I am going to be against this... and remain against it.

"Come on dude" is about as justifiable an argument as, "it didn't have it before so I don't want it" or "it might distract me"!

No, it isn't. "Come on dude" is an exclamation that contains no factual content.

"it didn't have it before so I don't want it" is related to the idea that you bought a product with certain expectations based on preview material, interviews, etc. world PvP was not one of those things. I suggested that they would need a better argument, or certain conditions, in place before being happy for them to make yet another fundamental alteration to the game.

"it might distract me" wasn't what I said. I said "the current level of justice content does distract me". This is one the reasons I argued against it when they started talking about it. My view hasn't changed. I asked the OP if he expected the added wPvP elements to decrease that possibility. Still waiting for my answer.

So no, the statements aren't equivalent. One was an exclamation that added nothing to the discussion but the OP's incredulity... the latter two actually contained the basis of an argument. You really still think that they are similarly justifiable? Or do you want to take another run up at that?

K, perhaps what I should have said was, your arguments against, carry about as much weight as "come on dude".
To call it world PvP is basically an over exaggeration first off. You are against a killable player character being able to deal out justice, but not an unkillable NPC. Calling that a "fundamental change to the game" is absurd. I could, with the same logic, argue that I bought the game based on the promise that the enforcer system was being implemented (see how I didn't call it wPvP) and now that it isn't, I require much more justification for the fundamental change to the game I thought ESO was going to be.

Secondly, no the OP can't promise you that, but wasn't that a part of the game you bought, the MMO you purchased. Just like no one can promise you that every single person isn't going to wage all out war on every NPC in the game now that we know there is basically no punishment for leading a life of crime besides a tricky dash to the crafting tables. This argument actually reeks of a sense of entitlement so much that I regret spending a portion of my lunch break having to address it.

"come on dude" isn't an argument and therefore cannot carry weight as one. One thing you may notice is that I included reasons for my views, and even a suggestion that would mean I would support the introduction of the system as described. (Hint: It's the bit where I mention phasing)

Calling it a fundamental change to the game isn't absurd. The introduction of PvP in any form into what are currently purely PvE areas is a fundamental change. That you refuse to see it as such, even going as far as to construct a strawman argument in an attempt to dismiss it, suggests a fair amount about your own bias. Further to this, you couldn't argue the opposite position with the same logic, because to do that you would have to find articles and interviews that specify that the justice system would be implemented in the game with a PvP component at launch. The justice system, if memory serves, started getting reported about in or around October 2014... or about 6 months after release. That would make those promo materials pretty hard to find, don't you think?

Of course the OP can't promise me that the introduction of PvP justice won't contribute to the distractions. That was the point I was originally making. Of course what I do remember is that people said that bringing the first phase of the Justice system into towns wouldn't impinge on the playing activities of anyone who wasn't actively carrying out criminal activities, and that those of us who raised concerns at the time were fear-mongering. Seems rather similar to your argument now.

If you think a rationally worded argument, raising concerns about the way this debate is being framed, is based around a sense of entitlement... while not actually bothering to address the points made... well, then maybe your time really would have been better spent concentrating on your food because you sure-as-heck aren't contributing anything useful here.

Calling it a fundamental change is absurd. I guess we will have to disagree on that.

And you're going to have to be clearer, are you saying that the current iteration of the justice system has a negative affect on your enjoyment of the game?

Egonieser · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Keep current justice system as is and add a opt-in PvP version of it.
It would have greater rewards in terms of gold if you are successful due to the fact you have real live guards after you.
Everyone wins.

Those that are fine and comfortable with PvP have their way and those that that favour current PvE-based justice system have their way aswell - nothing would change for them as they never opted in for the PvP component.

Variety is a spice of life and is a good thing. Limiting and restraining options is not. Dunno why people don't get that.

bikerangelo · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

With the minimal amount of effort ZOS has already delivered towards the current pvp aspects of this game, I'd imagine that this would've eventually been their response had they ever tried to implement a justice system. Pvp does need something different and dynamic, but a pvp justice system would've literally taken years to develop if they hadn't started already. The reason I voted for it is because I need something pvp oriented in this game that's different than lag-zerg-a's star or the empty Imperial City. The larger pve community is always going to get priority since this game just had to have the name of the largest single player RPG series tacked onto it.

What does the pve community want? New costumes, mounts and content. What do they get? New costumes, mounts and content.

What does the pvp community ask for? Bug fixes. What do they get? More bugs.

I'm not too excited for dueling due to the current class imbalance, and honestly I'm just looking for a new game to play at this point. It's frustrating to see so much time and effort go to waste due to deaf developers and a lack of urgency to fix their own product.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

WTB larger sample size. This is too easy.

Iluvrien · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

If you think a rationally worded argument, raising concerns about the way this debate is being framed, is based around a sense of entitlement... while not actually bothering to address the points made... well, then maybe your time really would have been better spent concentrating on your food because you sure-as-heck aren't contributing anything useful here.

And you sure as heck do not contribute to a polite and constructive exchange of views.
Your basic argumentation looks elaborate but it can be summarized as "I don't want it because I don't like it and therefore don't need it. I will not tolerate it either for the sake of other players who might enjoy it because I don't care about anyone else but myself".

The part where you state that whatever guard/thief fight occurring near you disrupts your bank operations deserves no more than "come on Dude..." but if you really want a detailed explanation, here it is : this is an MMO, which means a shared playground, if you're not ready to endure such basic events like a fight near you, you'd better play a single player game.

As to the argument that "it wasn't advertised as such when I bought the base game", itsounds very opportunistic. With arguments like that, you could put down any innovative step from ZOS that would not have been announced in 2014 already. If it was something you'd actually like, and someone else would come with such an argument, you'd find it just as out of place.

MMO are meant to evolve, else they die. That's their nature. Arguing that they cannot be different from what they were at launch is just nonsensical when it comes to MMOs.

Really? I thought my post on page 2 where I asked for a more reasoned response from the OP than "come on dude" was actually pretty polite. I do, however, take exception to suggestions of absurdity and entitlement from people who don't both to actually address the original request. Are you saying you wouldn't?

Ask yourself: If ability effects going off near crafting/service areas are such a low level of concern, then why are there still people calling for pets to be unsummoned in banks? Why annoyance with healing spam near crafting tables? I remember both of those getting a fair amount of air-time since launch. It comes down to what different people consider an acceptable level of interference. You wish to change the game to suit your tastes... and everyone else has to tolerate it because you want it? How then is your position not also selfish?

As it is, I have said twice that I will support the introduction of PvP justice into the game if people want it... as long as I don't have to see it. I have referred to phasing. Keep the people who are not flagged for the Justice system in a different phase from those who are... and those people can do whatever the heck they like, as far as I am concerned. I am offering a solution that allows for both styles of play. Can you say the same?

I didn't suggest ESO shouldn't change. I suggested that it should have good reasons for doing so, especially in the case of a fundamental change such as this. Please don't misrepresent my words again.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Calling it a fundamental change is absurd. I guess we will have to disagree on that.

And you're going to have to be clearer, are you saying that the current iteration of the justice system has a negative affect on your enjoyment of the game?

We will have to agree to disagree on it.

And yes, I am saying that I originally opposed the current iteration of the justice system. I was primarily concerned about two aspects of it:

1) With the change to containers, getting crafting materials and motifs would be more difficult. It is more difficult but I have been willing to embrace the change for the depth of interaction that it brings to the game.
2) That in-town (and especially in-building) combat would detract from my own enjoyment of these spaces. This, sadly, has remained a problem for me (try as I might). I don't enjoy it and I find it distracting.

I hope that answers your question.

Synnkar · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

A few brief points from me:

Justice PvP has the potential, when implemented right, to provide a really fun mechanic with lots of re-play value and logevity. It needs good risk/reward balance and just a generally good overall mechanic.
Justice PvP can certainly be broken and bad if implemented poorly. But that's of course the job of the designers to get right.
I played Ultima Online many years ago. It's probably not directly comparable, but I've always thought the "PK" system that game had was some of the most fun I've had in any game. It would increase immersion, realism, adrenaline and fun so much in ESO.

kevlarto_ESO · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I played in a game that had a bounty hunter system, turned into nothing but a haven for griefers, some people had to log off because it was so bad they could not play, in theory it sounds great and could be a lot of fun, but players will ruin the game for so many others, it will be exploited to no end, there are already enough broken and exploitable game mechanics in ESO, it does not need more added to the list. I see posts all the time about people that would love to gank noobs in the lowbie areas, don't know how that is fun or those people just lack skills to pvp against their own level have no idea.

It is so easy to make a mistake and take something and end up in a system you do not want to be part of, I am glad there is a setting to turn off these features if you do not wish to take part, but there is so much more to this system when it coms to the bystander, like splash damage flagging others that just happened to be in the area, this is not a simple thing and it would have changed the feel of the entire game. I pvp everyday in cyrodiil for hours on end or until the lag drives me out.

Sallington · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

People wanting to ONLY play in their little solo PvE bubble, and actively preventing other styles of play, are ruining what could have been an amazing MMO.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Sallington wrote: »

People wanting to ONLY play in their little solo PvE bubble, and actively preventing other styles of play, are ruining what could have been an amazing MMO.

That, and the Dev team only wants to sell more DLC that new players who care nothing about endgame have easy access to. $$$$$$

Robbmrp · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

ZOS has done the right thing. PvP does not belong in PvE areas. PvP in the justice system means that those who don't want to PvP won't be able to participate in the justice system. We're talking about ZOS. There is no way they can separate a PvP justice system and a PvE justice system.

I disagree. Just as they have a switch for not attacking the innocents, they could put in an opt out switch for the justice system. That way anyone that didn't want to be hunted down couldn't be. By doing that it wouldn't affect PVEer's at all. There are some that WANT to be chased. It brings an element to the game that currently isn't there. Yes, guards attack you when they see you, but they don't stalk you and follow you out of town waiting for the opportune time to pounce!

Anzriel · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

ralonasan wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Now. I am just happy it pisses off "PVPers" and maybe they leave already.

You're part of the problem. Thanks for helping this game die faster.

Don't feed the troll mate.

Sallington wrote: »

People wanting to ONLY play in their little solo PvE bubble, and actively preventing other styles of play, are ruining what could have been an amazing MMO.

One could argue the same for pvp players wanting to stay in their little bubble. No one group is to blame more than the other, and in the end ZOS is the one making the decisions. I just wish people could accept their favorite style of play isn't the only one that matters.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Anzriel wrote: »

ralonasan wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Now. I am just happy it pisses off "PVPers" and maybe they leave already.

You're part of the problem. Thanks for helping this game die faster.

Don't feed the troll mate.

Sallington wrote: »

People wanting to ONLY play in their little solo PvE bubble, and actively preventing other styles of play, are ruining what could have been an amazing MMO.

One could argue the same for pvp players wanting to stay in their little bubble. No one group is to blame more than the other, and in the end ZOS is the one making the decisions. I just wish people could accept their favorite style of play isn't the only one that matters.

See bold for wisdom.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_MandiParker

KewaG · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I assumed it would be either instance based or you would have a colored aura around you to signify that you opted in to the PvP side of the Justice System. Either way would work fine. You'd glow red or yellow if you are a criminal and white or blue if you are a "bounty hunter".

I had no intention of ever taking part in this Justice System PvP but I still thought it was a good idea and was interested to see how they would implement it into ESO. I can see why some people would be wary of such a system but people need to give it a chance.

Oh, and if you said your going to do something you should do it! ZOS, put it on the PTS until your comfortable with the final product! You have to at least try!

Sallington · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Anzriel wrote: »

ralonasan wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Now. I am just happy it pisses off "PVPers" and maybe they leave already.

You're part of the problem. Thanks for helping this game die faster.

Don't feed the troll mate.

Sallington wrote: »

People wanting to ONLY play in their little solo PvE bubble, and actively preventing other styles of play, are ruining what could have been an amazing MMO.

One could argue the same for pvp players wanting to stay in their little bubble. No one group is to blame more than the other, and in the end ZOS is the one making the decisions. I just wish people could accept their favorite style of play isn't the only one that matters.

The only thing the PvP player base wants are working servers. That's all it would take for me to resub.

I wouldn't even recognize the COMPLETE lack of end-game PvE content, as I'd be too happy enjoying my lag-free Cyrodil.

Kwivur · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

It's really simple.. Add the player to a bounty board as soon as they "get away" with the crime. Then they turn into a fugitive and can be hunted. You wouldn't be the police, you'd be the bounty hunter. They'll have to pay the guard anyway, why can't we cash in on it?

HeroOfNone · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Heya,

Just to address a few of the issues with various justice system implementations:

1. Escaping with the loot: as mentioned, if someone steals then they can wayshrine, log out, and use /stuck to avoid capture. Potential Solution: As I see it this can be solved by wiping out a players stolen inventory if they do any of this. It will upset some with poor connections, but would solve a big potential for abuse.
2. Getting zerged by thieves or gaurds: a lot of us don't want to get into the 1 v 10 battles we have in Cyrodiil today. A lot of us are expecting a small scale fight, but how can we gaurentee that? Potential Solution: when you steal something, an NPC has a chance to spawn near a gaurd to alert them a crime may be taking place. This allows that gaurd to attack that thief. The more a thief steals, the more gaurds are alerted.
3. The towns are too open: it is difficult to imagine how we'd gaurd a town if people can come and go as they please. Potential Solution: wall up the towns Wil multiple entrance doors. Cities like wayrest and Daggerfall are already setup like this, and are potential hubs for activity.
4. Not enough people will participate: if we develop this system then we want people to use it, not just do it for 2 weeks and abandon it. Potential Solution: limit the gard system to a few specific cities (ones we can wall up as previously suggested) and allow it to cross faction while inside it's walls. You'll concentrate the player base and have an easier environment to control. With the potential for better loot and no fence limit your also make an enticing target for thieves. Loot can rise or lower by the number of flagged gaurds in an area.

Now, I think an important thing will be to give the casuals and PVP players to seperate the gaurd system has been discussed up till now. Some like to steal while only worrying about the PVE threat, while others like the player verses player aspect. I think we can achieve both, but we need to have some innovative solutions, we will have to limit the the stealing areas, and we need more community support for what folks want.

Thanks @Lefty_Lucy for the post.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Needs more votes.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Iluvrien wrote: »

Really? I thought my post on page 2 where I asked for a more reasoned response from the OP than "come on dude" was actually pretty polite. I do, however, take exception to suggestions of absurdity and entitlement from people who don't both to actually address the original request. Are you saying you wouldn't?

I always try to argue and explain without being rude. I don't always succeed, but at least I try.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Ask yourself: If ability effects going off near crafting/service areas are such a low level of concern, then why are there still people calling for pets to be unsummoned in banks? Why annoyance with healing spam near crafting tables? I remember both of those getting a fair amount of air-time since launch. It comes down to what different people consider an acceptable level of interference. You wish to change the game to suit your tastes... and everyone else has to tolerate it because you want it? How then is your position not also selfish?

You seem to enjoy backfiring arguments in a loop. Easy but not very convincing.
- A fight near you in a bank doesn't take you away from your bank interface, it's really a background thing. You cannot honestly call it "distracting".
- People are asked to unsummon pets and stop spamming abilities in town because it serves no purpose but to invade other players' space. If it served a playing purpose (fighting guards or other players) then it would be OK.

Iluvrien wrote: »

As it is, I have said twice that I will support the introduction of PvP justice into the game if people want it... as long as I don't have to see it. I have referred to phasing. Keep the people who are not flagged for the Justice system in a different phase from those who are... and those people can do whatever the heck they like, as far as I am concerned. I am offering a solution that allows for both styles of play. Can you say the same?

Yes, in this very thread, and much better than you, because I actually suggested something practicable, whereas you just say "do whatever you want but out of my way, I don't care how". That's not a solution. My suggestion could be one. Maybe not the best, but at least it is one.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2591350/#Comment_2591350

Iluvrien wrote: »

I didn't suggest ESO shouldn't change. I suggested that it should have good reasons for doing so, especially in the case of a fundamental change such as this. Please don't misrepresent my words again.

This is not a fundamental change for whoever opts out of it. Come on dude...

.

driosketch · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

To get Justice System PvP to work in the game, several things need to happen.

First you need to opt in to the PvP, and there needs to be a restriction so you couldn't opt in and out on the fly. That includes a 10 second time to log out like in Cyrodiil even in normally safe areas like towns if you had opted in. On top of that guards could only be killed if you opted into PvP. Opt out and they remain immortal. (How that works if you had two players fight a guard where one opts in and the other out, I have no idea.)

Ganking locations. Rember the opt in/out restriction? You could have the switch be in side the refuge. This means the refuge itself and the area around the door needs to have a sanctuary protections like IC. Identically you would have the same system with a Guard House that you'd go to collect bounties or something.

Zone leveling. You would need to introduce some sort of reverse battle leveling for the 1-50 zones. If you were outside the level range of a zone, you'd need to opt in to battle leveling before you could opt into JS PvP. Soft caps and other CP restrictions might need to be added.

Fights to the death are fine in regular PvP but not if you want an interesting justice system. There would need to be a way to confront and arrest thieves. Enforcers would have a visible detection ring. Commit a crime or enter the ring with a bounty and get a dialog window. You couldn't unilaterally nope out of it either. Pay fine, bribe, just a warning or flee would need acknowledgement by both players. A timer added, so you couldn't lock a player as well.

What this means is enforcers would be functionally gank proof. They would always have a moment to prepare for the fight mentally after the first hit. This would be asymmetrical gameplay yes, but necessary for the justice system to work. If strong players could kill every enforcer with surprise in a few seconds, you have the same problems as IC and not many would want to be an enforcer. So then criminals could kill guards and loot towns freely without consequences. Likewise, enforcers couldn't initiate combat. They would either need to cross paths with someone who had a bounty or witness a crime. And even then that person would need to flee first.

If that system doesn't sound interesting to those of you who wanted the PvP portion, you didn't want Justice System PvP. You wanted open world PvP or durling. And while I would have liked to see something like this, I understand why it was considered too much trouble to add.

Contraptions · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I'm going to vote no on this for now. Like OP said, if implemented poorly this could bomb big time.

OP says that people who opposed the idea did so without knowing all the details. Even if that's true, OP also supported this idea without knowing all the details. This argument doesn't work either way.

The people who support this idea just seem to want more PVP. And that's fine. But I would rather they lobby for a separate "opt-in" PVP completely unrelated to Justice than try to mash these two systems together. It's gonna be a mess. There are tons of possible loopholes in this system. Here are some scenarios:

Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him. Who gets the bounty? What if A purposely carries no gold? Is it subtracted from the bank? Same for contraband items. Who gets it?

Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him with help from a guard. Who gets the bounty? Is the bounty going to be split like AP? What if it's two or more player enforcers? Who gets the contraband?

What about wayshrining away when attacked?

Is this flagging system going to be active in Cyrodiil? Or cooperative activities like trials and dungeons?

Will NPC guards still be invincible?

How will stealth work? Will Enforcers be unable to see Thieves? Can Civilians see Thieves? What about Civilian Thieves (aka people that have bounties but don't flag themselves)?

How would healing work? Will spells have to check whether the target is a Civilian or a Thief or an Enforcer and not affect them accordingly?

How would you address people who zerg around in large groups, as either Enforcers or Thieves?

How would you prevent the camping of Refuge entrances or Enforcer strongholds?

How would you address level differences between players? Is there going to be battle leveling for all who flag themselves?

If OP wants people to support his idea, he needs to start providing more details himself. Not just, "I saw this work well before so it must work here as well." Kudos on being mature about it though.

Zinaroth · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Would've been a nice addition, but it isn't coming. Let's give it a rest and move on to fighting for something more important/relevant for the games future.

TheBull · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Age of Wushu. By far the best crime/justice system I've ever played. Too much to type. Please, I implore you to look it up. Truly brilliant. Brilliant enough to make a "Civil FFA" world.

Xantaria · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

I am against it because I have 76 million bounty. A bounty I am never going to get rid of. It's almost impossible. Thus I would only vote for a PvP Justice System if it would get resetted at launch.

How do you "live" with that ? You never ever go to town and never use a guild bank (with that character ?). I wonder wonder how it's possible to reach such a high bounty...

I only have that character ... luckily people in cyrodiil and coldharbour don't mind me killing millions of tamriel people.

NeillMcAttack · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Iluvrien wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

If you think a rationally worded argument, raising concerns about the way this debate is being framed, is based around a sense of entitlement... while not actually bothering to address the points made... well, then maybe your time really would have been better spent concentrating on your food because you sure-as-heck aren't contributing anything useful here.

And you sure as heck do not contribute to a polite and constructive exchange of views.
Your basic argumentation looks elaborate but it can be summarized as "I don't want it because I don't like it and therefore don't need it. I will not tolerate it either for the sake of other players who might enjoy it because I don't care about anyone else but myself".

The part where you state that whatever guard/thief fight occurring near you disrupts your bank operations deserves no more than "come on Dude..." but if you really want a detailed explanation, here it is : this is an MMO, which means a shared playground, if you're not ready to endure such basic events like a fight near you, you'd better play a single player game.

As to the argument that "it wasn't advertised as such when I bought the base game", itsounds very opportunistic. With arguments like that, you could put down any innovative step from ZOS that would not have been announced in 2014 already. If it was something you'd actually like, and someone else would come with such an argument, you'd find it just as out of place.

MMO are meant to evolve, else they die. That's their nature. Arguing that they cannot be different from what they were at launch is just nonsensical when it comes to MMOs.

Really? I thought my post on page 2 where I asked for a more reasoned response from the OP than "come on dude" was actually pretty polite. I do, however, take exception to suggestions of absurdity and entitlement from people who don't both to actually address the original request. Are you saying you wouldn't?

Ask yourself: If ability effects going off near crafting/service areas are such a low level of concern, then why are there still people calling for pets to be unsummoned in banks? Why annoyance with healing spam near crafting tables? I remember both of those getting a fair amount of air-time since launch. It comes down to what different people consider an acceptable level of interference. You wish to change the game to suit your tastes... and everyone else has to tolerate it because you want it? How then is your position not also selfish?

As it is, I have said twice that I will support the introduction of PvP justice into the game if people want it... as long as I don't have to see it. I have referred to phasing. Keep the people who are not flagged for the Justice system in a different phase from those who are... and those people can do whatever the heck they like, as far as I am concerned. I am offering a solution that allows for both styles of play. Can you say the same?

I didn't suggest ESO shouldn't change. I suggested that it should have good reasons for doing so, especially in the case of a fundamental change such as this. Please don't misrepresent my words again.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Calling it a fundamental change is absurd. I guess we will have to disagree on that.

And you're going to have to be clearer, are you saying that the current iteration of the justice system has a negative affect on your enjoyment of the game?

We will have to agree to disagree on it.

And yes, I am saying that I originally opposed the current iteration of the justice system. I was primarily concerned about two aspects of it:

1) With the change to containers, getting crafting materials and motifs would be more difficult. It is more difficult but I have been willing to embrace the change for the depth of interaction that it brings to the game.
2) That in-town (and especially in-building) combat would detract from my own enjoyment of these spaces. This, sadly, has remained a problem for me (try as I might). I don't enjoy it and I find it distracting.

I hope that answers your question.

Yes it does, and I'm honestly sorry, but I can not help but feel it comes from a position of privilege. I know that sounds condescending, and you have every right to your opinion, but your stance is not one i can empathise with. Feeling that you have a right to demand justification and more complicated networking just so you may not be slightly inconvenienced by other players playing this MMO (which can not be stressed enough, as by definition, you are meant to share the world and all of its mechanics with other players) defies all reasoning I am willing to grant.

Peace out.

Bugbear · January 2016

What about someone getting a huge bounty, and there mate cashing in. Not a bad scam.
Quick way to make to much cash.

Think it would be fun, But people complain in RL laws, Can you imagine the *** on the forums.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Btw... @Lefty_Lucy :

Thank you for the video.
I feel really betrayed, disappointed and whatnot after ZOS' announcement. This justice PvP was something I've been really looking forward to for a long time and now I feel like... quitting maybe ? Not ragequitting, but just that the game feels so "empty"... and I say that as a 95% PvEer !!!!
Your tone in the video is exactly how I feel and you expressed it very well, so thank you.

NB : (Don't ask for stuff, people, not sure yet what I'll do and will check future DLCs no matter what).

TheBull · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@ZOS_MattFiror

Matt, this is one of those moments in a mmorpgs history where people will look back and point to. You stand to lose a large portion of your extremely loyal fan base. Above and beyond the system itself that loyal fan base has also lost trust.

Hope499 · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

It would be nice, but no where even close to actually caring about.

Or accidentally stealing instead of talking to the banker and everyone jumps on you....hell no....

Joshuagm1991 · January 2016

I'm for this! It sounds like fun.

Also, I like being ganked and little sparring fights with other factions. I'd love for more of that, especially in normal areas if possible. ( not at all popular, I know.)