Personally, I don't care about the justice system, since the moment I incur a bounty, I just logout and play some other game until it is reset. No big deal, I own a lot of other games. I can hold of for months without playing a moment of ESO if that's what it takes.
I can not Vote for this, because it really depend of how this Justice System PVP is implemented in the game.
As I explain in this video below, for me it's absolutely necessary than the NON-PVP players can enjoy the Justice system without being forced to PVP. But as @Lefty_Lucy said, it can be implemented in a way to ensure that point. So why not?
However, I actually find the points made by @Joy_Division (first page) very interesting. Not sure that Zenimax should priorities that aspect of the game over some others that could be more stable and easier to develop.
Here @Lefty_Lucy my answer to your videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMppYOZSGCA&feature=youtu.be
Lefty_Lucy wrote: »[
@Joy_Division - I want to thank you for what you said (Post #156, page 6). Very well said. I see your point of view and I respect it like crazy. You have excellent points. In the end, our votes will differ, but I think we see each other's perspectives pretty clearly. Thanks again.
While I applaud you @Lefty_Lucy for your passionate response, I disagree with your conclusions. You feel that the justice system PVP should just be used as a way to bring dueling and small scale PVP all across Tamriel in the way you have described it. While sure, it can be used in such a way, there are many thieves who would use the PVP as an opportunity to see how much they can get away while they avoid PVP. Justice system PVP should be a MEANS to and end.... it should be an end in and of itself. I think the whole small scale PVP dueling really should be implemented... but not through the Justice System. The tabbard idea that @Elloa suggested would actually be pretty cool for that...
The amount of opting out players want to do in this game baffles me. I'm surprised we didn't get a bunch of threads when the Justice System was first introduced with people wanting to opt-out of the Guard and Bounty component of the justice system while still being allowed to steal items without any kind of consequence.
But I digress... Allowing players to loot, steal, pickpocket and kill without having fear of the PVP justice system is just... well... missing the point of the PVP portion of the justice system. Adding PVP would have added a layer of depth and complexity to the Justice System that would make it so that players couldn't simply learn the ways to dodge responsibility for their crimes. They would have to contend with players who are actively hunting them. There would be an element of fear and excitement that many players just don't receive from the current iteration of the justice system.
That being said... I understand that if players could be killed for stealing a potato it would just turn into a gank fest with powerful players running trains on lower level players. So... I see that there is a need for some checks and balances along the lines of what you suggest but your suggestions are too binary.
To prepare for justice system PVP ZOS would need to do the following
- Implement a toggle or stealing AND pickpocketing so players can completely avoid these activities if they want.
- Rework the heat system so that player must commit MANY more smaller crimes to get to the higher levels of heat.
- Add a Wanted level to the heat system between Notorious and Fugitive
- Calm the guards down! Make it so that a player is only a Fugitive if they flee from the guards while Wanted or commit murder. As long as a player is not a Fugitive, they shouldn't be Kill-on-Sight. Stealing an apple, and running from the guards shouldn't automatically make the player kill on sight.
- Oh, and guards, while tough... should be able to be killed.
And then player enforcers can have 2 levels of participation also. They can stop players of a Wanted level to collect the bounty and they can attack Fugitives Players. In this system, players would have to act deliberately by committing multiple acts of wanton acts of mayhem to get to a Fugitive level and it's not a binary opt-out making any players safe from any player dealt consequence.
Most of the above concepts are derived from a broader Justice system concept that I have been pecking away at for a long while which would include zone based Infamy levels so a player can be a Fugitive in one zone but upstanding in another... but that is all for another thread.
Again... players should NOT be able to flat out opt-out of Justice System PVP. I really think that is missing the point of the Justice System PVP. The Justice System shouldn't just be used to open up Tamriel-wide PVP, it should be an engaging part of the PVP system.
Oh, and all of this is from a player who is a self-admitted PVE only player who actively avoids PVP.
NateAssassin wrote: »Hmm, you can easily run away from a guard even at level 10, a VR16 player not so much.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »The only concerns i've had toward anything with the justice system, come from two experiences with it as it stands now. Doing a quest in stonefalls, battling Nords while drunk, accidentally killed a chicken, incurred a bounty. While trying to complete another quest (forget which zone), I had to kill a whole lot of soldiers on while trying to gain entry into a castle. Another player was also killing said soldiers, so I threw a heal their way, only to get a bounty, as the player was not doing the same quest, just randomly killing npc's, or trying to.
Last thing I want to to be ganked by a bounty hunter due to incidents as stated above.
If you haven't opted-in for justice-system-pvp, you won't. Simple as that.
But even then... you got those bounties by accident. What do you do ? either wait (disconnect) or pay it the a guard or a fence. If another player kills you and takes the bounty, what difference is it to you ? The only difference is that you stand a chance against a player and none against a guard.
NateAssassin wrote: »Hmm, you can easily run away from a guard even at level 10, a VR16 player not so much.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »The only concerns i've had toward anything with the justice system, come from two experiences with it as it stands now. Doing a quest in stonefalls, battling Nords while drunk, accidentally killed a chicken, incurred a bounty. While trying to complete another quest (forget which zone), I had to kill a whole lot of soldiers on while trying to gain entry into a castle. Another player was also killing said soldiers, so I threw a heal their way, only to get a bounty, as the player was not doing the same quest, just randomly killing npc's, or trying to.
Last thing I want to to be ganked by a bounty hunter due to incidents as stated above.
If you haven't opted-in for justice-system-pvp, you won't. Simple as that.
But even then... you got those bounties by accident. What do you do ? either wait (disconnect) or pay it the a guard or a fence. If another player kills you and takes the bounty, what difference is it to you ? The only difference is that you stand a chance against a player and none against a guard.
My son of 11, when he plays ESO, what does he do? He goes arround Davon's Watch, stealing things and escaping guards. Woudl he enjoy that if he was hunted by Sypher instead? That would just be so frustrating and humiliating! Okay, its not a true ESO player, of course not. But still...This show my point, that there is absolutely no reason to punish a LARGE part of the population.
The justice system, as it currently stands, it just tedium. Like @Necrelios mentioned, it's avoidable if you take steps right away by logging out. Find something worth stealing and have a bounty? No worries just log out.
And actual items worth finding are so few and far between. If I need lockpicks and food, I can go crawling around a town for 30 minutes, but there is nothing really decent to gain. Guards being invincible was also a bad move. It makes crime fall flat.
The only hope was there to be some actual repercussions when getting caught, which was the PvP. But there is just nothing to gain stealing, especially at later levels. It can be a decent way for a newbie to earn some money though.
RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »How to handle battle leveling and the fact that based on the description 2 things can happen: 1 high levels can stalk low levels until they make a mistake and 2 a person or people can steal stuff on purpose to trigger PvP against everyone else and cause a massacre.
edit plus right now PvP balance is a farce that is the biggest reason
ChuckyPayne wrote: »At the end of last year in one of the ESO Live they said duel is coming arena (4v4 or somthing like that) is coming. Then there is no problem, they just said justice system is only for pve.
I think no pvp justice system <> no dueling.
Those people that are against implementing it have absolutely no legitimate reason to hate it. As I see it, that hate is purely based on PvP hate, not the system (which they didn't even bother to understand).
The problem as I see it in this conversation is that you have PVPer that rightfully want to see the Justice System PVP being added in a way or another, and PVPer that want to push down the troat some PVP action to players that don't want to PVP and rightfully want to play the game.
This is why many of us believe an "opt-in" system would be ideal. For those people who enjoy the justice system as it is now, they don't need to do anything. They won't get attacked by other players and can continue being bad guys however they want.For a LOT of player the Justice System as it is now IS FUN! For a lot of player the Justice System as it is now IS NOT ENOUGH. So why can't we get a fair compromise?
@DubhliamThose people that are against implementing it have absolutely no legitimate reason to hate it. As I see it, that hate is purely based on PvP hate, not the system (which they didn't even bother to understand).
The problem as I see it in this conversation is that you have PVPer that rightfully want to see the Justice System PVP being added in a way or another, and PVPer that want to push down the troat some PVP action to players that don't want to PVP and rightfully want to play the game.
Why every discussion involving PVP element is turning into a PVP VS PVE fight.
For a LOT of player the Justice System as it is now IS FUN! For a lot of player the Justice System as it is now IS NOT ENOUGH. So why can't we get a fair compromise?
Isn't what @Lefty_Lucy is promoting all along?
ESO is not a game made for just one sort of players. So, we shoudl see further than our own interest and think about the benefice of the community as a whole.
You know what guys? Maybe Zenimax is removing the Justice System PVP, cause they don't want to bother with the drama it will create and generate among the community. Maybe they think " We will *** off 50% of our customers so why bother? Let's make something that most poeple can agree with"
And seing this thread, I'd understand their decision.
Contraptions wrote: »I'm going to vote no on this for now. Like OP said, if implemented poorly this could bomb big time.
OP says that people who opposed the idea did so without knowing all the details. Even if that's true, OP also supported this idea without knowing all the details. This argument doesn't work either way.
The people who support this idea just seem to want more PVP. And that's fine. But I would rather they lobby for a separate "opt-in" PVP completely unrelated to Justice than try to mash these two systems together. It's gonna be a mess. There are tons of possible loopholes in this system. Here are some scenarios:
Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him. Who gets the bounty? What if A purposely carries no gold? Is it subtracted from the bank? Same for contraband items. Who gets it? an Enforcer should never get the stolen items or gold that the bounty is worth (it should still be subtracted from the Outlaw) but get that many justice points that could be a requirement for an Enforcer daily completion.
Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him with help from a guard. Who gets the bounty? Is the bounty going to be split like AP? What if it's two or more player enforcers? Who gets the contraband? see above
What about wayshrining away when attacked? Very good observation, would need to work the same way as doors work now - 5 second out of combat rule.
Is this flagging system going to be active in Cyrodiil? Or cooperative activities like trials and dungeons? This system should not be active in Cyrodill and group instanced content, and be focused in PvE world maps instead.
Will NPC guards still be invincible? No, they should become killable, but very hard to kill. If we are taking into consideration my previous suggestion that the 5 starter zones (from the native alliance) are excluded from Justice PvP, those guards should stay invincible.
How will stealth work? Will Enforcers be unable to see Thieves? Can Civilians see Thieves? What about Civilian Thieves (aka people that have bounties but don't flag themselves)? Stealth would work much like in Cyro. Again, I have to reffer to my previous suggestion - don't make the opt in/out option available, make PvP and non PvP maps instead.
How would healing work? Will spells have to check whether the target is a Civilian or a Thief or an Enforcer and not affect them accordingly? see above
How would you address people who zerg around in large groups, as either Enforcers or Thieves? A VERY valid point, this system should stay small scale PvP. That is the reason in my suggestion that I think Enforcers should get a skill line with passives that significantly enhances their performance against Outlaws. Outlaws are discouraged to fight, and must turn to hiding and running IF they ever get a lvl3 bounty. Enforcers are wasting time if they zerg around waiting for a person to get a lvl3 bounty (only obtainable with NPC spotting). REMEMBER! This should not be a way for people to intentionally 1v1 or zerg. Arenas are coming eventually, that will be the place to 1v1, and hopefully we'll get balance by then.
How would you prevent the camping of Refuge entrances or Enforcer strongholds? Yet another very valid point. Refuges should sell recall scrolls, much as those in IC.
How would you address level differences between players? Is there going to be battle leveling for all who flag themselves? Again I have to point to my suggestion that leaves starter zones PvP free. PvP Justice should be promoted in bettle leveled areas (DLCs excluding IC and hopefully Cadwell silver and gold)
If OP wants people to support his idea, he needs to start providing more details himself. Not just, "I saw this work well before so it must work here as well." Kudos on being mature about it though.
Was in the process of patching the game after roughly a half-year hiatus.
Saw the road ahead; saw that ZOS still does not care about their PvP community; canceled my download.
For a long time, PvP was the only thing that kept me active in the community. It took a pretty consistent nosedive in the wake of the lighting patch and issues with AoE caps, but ZOS never tackle things.
To this day, it is the only thing I really want back -- replaying Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim then tackling Fallout 4 provided more interesting PvE encounters than ESO ever did, but PvP is the part of the MMO world that cannot be replaced with AI.
Justice System had the opportunity to breathe new life into this game. It was going to offer a really nice juxtaposition of role-playing and PvP in my favourite gaming universe.
My well wishes go out to everyone who continues to deal with being treated as an unimportant player by ZOS.
Contraptions wrote: »I'm going to vote no on this for now. Like OP said, if implemented poorly this could bomb big time.
OP says that people who opposed the idea did so without knowing all the details. Even if that's true, OP also supported this idea without knowing all the details. This argument doesn't work either way.
The people who support this idea just seem to want more PVP. And that's fine. But I would rather they lobby for a separate "opt-in" PVP completely unrelated to Justice than try to mash these two systems together. It's gonna be a mess. There are tons of possible loopholes in this system. Here are some scenarios:
Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him. Who gets the bounty? What if A purposely carries no gold? Is it subtracted from the bank? Same for contraband items. Who gets it? an Enforcer should never get the stolen items or gold that the bounty is worth (it should still be subtracted from the Outlaw) but get that many justice points that could be a requirement for an Enforcer daily completion.
Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him with help from a guard. Who gets the bounty? Is the bounty going to be split like AP? What if it's two or more player enforcers? Who gets the contraband? see above
What about wayshrining away when attacked? Very good observation, would need to work the same way as doors work now - 5 second out of combat rule.
Is this flagging system going to be active in Cyrodiil? Or cooperative activities like trials and dungeons? This system should not be active in Cyrodill and group instanced content, and be focused in PvE world maps instead.
Will NPC guards still be invincible? No, they should become killable, but very hard to kill. If we are taking into consideration my previous suggestion that the 5 starter zones (from the native alliance) are excluded from Justice PvP, those guards should stay invincible.
How will stealth work? Will Enforcers be unable to see Thieves? Can Civilians see Thieves? What about Civilian Thieves (aka people that have bounties but don't flag themselves)? Stealth would work much like in Cyro. Again, I have to reffer to my previous suggestion - don't make the opt in/out option available, make PvP and non PvP maps instead.
How would healing work? Will spells have to check whether the target is a Civilian or a Thief or an Enforcer and not affect them accordingly? see above
How would you address people who zerg around in large groups, as either Enforcers or Thieves? A VERY valid point, this system should stay small scale PvP. That is the reason in my suggestion that I think Enforcers should get a skill line with passives that significantly enhances their performance against Outlaws. Outlaws are discouraged to fight, and must turn to hiding and running IF they ever get a lvl3 bounty. Enforcers are wasting time if they zerg around waiting for a person to get a lvl3 bounty (only obtainable with NPC spotting). REMEMBER! This should not be a way for people to intentionally 1v1 or zerg. Arenas are coming eventually, that will be the place to 1v1, and hopefully we'll get balance by then.
How would you prevent the camping of Refuge entrances or Enforcer strongholds? Yet another very valid point. Refuges should sell recall scrolls, much as those in IC.
How would you address level differences between players? Is there going to be battle leveling for all who flag themselves? Again I have to point to my suggestion that leaves starter zones PvP free. PvP Justice should be promoted in bettle leveled areas (DLCs excluding IC and hopefully Cadwell silver and gold)
If OP wants people to support his idea, he needs to start providing more details himself. Not just, "I saw this work well before so it must work here as well." Kudos on being mature about it though.
These are all very good points, thank you very much for pointing out the possible problems instead of just saying- I don't like it.
OP has a very good intention of showing ZOS that the community can help them with implementing this System without hurting the playerbase.
DorianDragonRaze wrote: »
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »NateAssassin wrote: »Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD
What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?
Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).
What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.
Sevalaricgirl wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »NateAssassin wrote: »Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD
What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?
Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).
What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.
That does impact me if I'm doing a quest and I see people PvPing around me. Most quests are not solo phased and PvP would completely break immersion. ESO may not have started out as being a PvE game with PvP in Cyrodiil, but it ended up that way and the reason it is so popular is because of the PvE, not the PvP.
Sevalaricgirl wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »NateAssassin wrote: »Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD
What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?
Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).
What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.
That does impact me if I'm doing a quest and I see people PvPing around me. Most quests are not solo phased and PvP would completely break immersion. ESO may not have started out as being a PvE game with PvP in Cyrodiil, but it ended up that way and the reason it is so popular is because of the PvE, not the PvP.