Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

AzraelKrieg · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

@sircritical that sounds like a cool concept. Almost more like a PvP bounty system than real law enforcement inside cities. I'd imagine the captain of the guard in a city could give out quests to look for players in the zone who have a bounty on their head, some sort of weird hunt. XD

@Azraelkrieg, this could be solved by having a flagging system, by only implementing justice pvp in zones where there is battle-leveling, or other ways. I don't see why people would want a 'fair' system in this sense: I loved the thought of emerging gameplay and assymmetry where 5 thieves could take out an Enforcer before nicking the jackpot, or the other way around. That's what seemed so appealing.

If it was limited to battle level zones such Wrothgar, Abah's Landing or The Gold Coast then the issue is really a moot point. But the Justice System is a world wide thing. Unless ZOS make all zones battle levelled (which they've said they won't do) or remove levels all together (also won't happen because every MMO has levels) it will struggle to be implemented. The system needs to be fair in such a way that you have the same chance to escape from justice as you do dealing it. If it comes down to player skill and the dirty thief gets away because he was able to kill you, I see that as fair. If the dirty thief got away because he had some high level buddies come help out that were also flagged, not really fair at all. Again, I was excited for it but as time went on and the game became more and more unbalanced when it comes to classes it became less and less feasible to implement.

RinaldoGandolphi · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

petraeus1 wrote: »

show previous quotes

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

It all comes down to this...Money.

As it stands right now, ZOS is not going to add new features to the game unless you can only get those features with a DLC. Adding in a PVP Justice System would have to apply to the entire game which means ZOS would have to put it in a reg update and not a DLC thus they realized this wouldn't work so they scraped the plans.

...

Why? Why can't they add another PvP DLC down the line? They did IC, and sure, many people don't like it in its current state, but I can completely imagine a zone in which Justice PvP was a thing, without it affecting vanilla ESO. I heard all Markarth's and Solitude's guards died fighting off Dark Anchors, and an influx of Imperial deserters, organized under the name 'Ooh, shiny', is harassing those cities stealing valuables and murdering travelers. BAM. Zone: PvE content, Justice system, only difference: here there are player guards. Battle-leveling, intelligent zone design, flagging system if you will.

The only reason this won't be done, is if they reckon a normal PvE DLC would be more popular. Maybe. I think it's great to have something different. Only appealing to the masses makes for a potentially bland MMO. But hey, who am I? I don't know.

Thats my point...the PVP Justice System was promised as a "Update to the Base part of the game" over a year ago, it was promised to be added. Once they realized they couldn't sell it in the cash shop as a DLC, they canceled it. they may add another PVP DLC at some point, but they won't add something like that unless they can sell it as a DLC or as a cash shop item, the days of getting new features via incremental updates are over with the removal of sub fees, its all about the cash shop and selling DLC now...

robkrush · January 2016

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

Please remember that ZOS has never given any specific details about the implementation of the Justice System's PvP content. It seems that everyone has developed assumptions about how this PvP content would have worked, and then people formed opinions about the PvP in the Justice System based on their assumptions!

I take it you didn't get yesterday's memo.

"We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System. We caveated this many times - as I said at the ESO QuakeCon presentation in 2014, it was always going to be very difficult making it fun, but not exploitable. When introducing new systems to the game, our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems. Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is." ZOS

Read it here:
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2016/01/12/eso--the-year-ahead

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@azraelkrieg I think holding on to the Justice System as a world wide thing is odd. The problems are obvious, so you'd rather not have it. But why does it have to be world wide? Cyrodiil isn't world wide? Just because they said it would be world wide 1,5 years ago? I know too little about ZOS' plans to give a verdict, but I'd much rather have one or two zones with Justice PvP than no Justice PvP at all, or even Justice PvP everywhere. There's no need to try to make it global imo.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Another suggestion (i'm afraid it's too late for suggestions but ... anyway... )

Let's have people be able to choose the role of enforcers. (could be a quest, whatever doesn't matter). Enforcers would get an extra ability called "capture" or something. Of course enforcers would loose both status and ability as soon as they get a bounty of their own. Enforcers would be clearly visually identifiable by everyone. Thieves would not be identifiable, they'd have to be "caught in the act" by an enforcer.

If an enforcer sees a criminal committing a crime, he can "capture" him via his ability, and both are teleported to a separate instance for a PvP duel (with battle levelling).

This way :
- Criminals would have to be more careful, more depth to the game
- Devs would only have to arrange a 1v1 balance, not a 1vX
- Towns would not be disturbed by "justice fights", AoE, and all
- Servers would not suffer extra load
- Thieves could not be killed from stealth or ganked like in IC
- Level issues with justice-system-pvp solved

and most of all :
- People get their so longed for PvP arena
- People get their so long for "fights within the same faction"
- Justice system gets its "2nd part".

Mind considering this, @ZOS_RichLambert ? You're working on a PvP arena anyway, that could be a nice link to it while enhancing the justice system.

I am personally against any "opt-out" system (don't wanna risk anything ? don't steal, simple as that...) but if it's that important to many players, it could be considered as well.

Faulgor · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

What I would like to know from opponents of the Justice System:

The second part was not merely designed for PvP. It was a dynamic, player-driven system that allowed player-interaction in a meaningful way, something that ESO is lacking more than any MMO I have ever seen.
What, in your opinion, is going to take the Justice System's place to fill that sandbox-shaped hole in ESO's feature list?
Because I see nothing but more themepark rides on the horizon.

NeillMcAttack · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Iluvrien wrote: »

show previous quotes

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

I haven't played a game where there is a PvP Justice system, but I have played ones where I have taken part in Justice type situations in wPvP enabled systems. Including this in the voting options is an appeal to authority: "You only get your views on the subject taken seriously if you have done it in the past and haven't liked it". No. Just no.

Your response to the person who didn't want to see PvP going on was also lacking. "Come on dude" isn't a reasoned response. It isn't playing devil's advocate. It is dismissing the concern of another player based on your own bias. The same goes for not having heard "a single reason that has convinced" you. There have been plenty of reasons given since launch. I suspect the issue is that you dismiss them based on your desire for this system, rather than that they are actually bad, or even unconvincing, arguments.

And, for the record, the reason I am glad that this isn't being implemented is because I don't want to see it. Ever. This game was launched without wPvP. If they are going to introduce it then they are going to need to make a much stronger argument than anyone has done before I will accept how this will impact on my own play time. The current version of the justice system already does, sometimes when I am in a bank, the entire environment explodes as some hapless idiot takes on the guards in there. You think that contributes to my ability to critically consider what I should/shouldn't keep... or how best to fulfill a crafting order? Do you honestly believe that this will occur less if the PvP part of the justice system is implemented?

Quite simply, unless someone can promise that all Justice flagged players would be phased out of my sight, I am going to be against this... and remain against it.

"Come on dude" is about as justifiable an argument as, "it didn't have it before so I don't want it" or "it might distract me"!

No, it isn't. "Come on dude" is an exclamation that contains no factual content.

"it didn't have it before so I don't want it" is related to the idea that you bought a product with certain expectations based on preview material, interviews, etc. world PvP was not one of those things. I suggested that they would need a better argument, or certain conditions, in place before being happy for them to make yet another fundamental alteration to the game.

"it might distract me" wasn't what I said. I said "the current level of justice content does distract me". This is one the reasons I argued against it when they started talking about it. My view hasn't changed. I asked the OP if he expected the added wPvP elements to decrease that possibility. Still waiting for my answer.

So no, the statements aren't equivalent. One was an exclamation that added nothing to the discussion but the OP's incredulity... the latter two actually contained the basis of an argument. You really still think that they are similarly justifiable? Or do you want to take another run up at that?

K, perhaps what I should have said was, your arguments against, carry about as much weight as "come on dude".
To call it world PvP is basically an over exaggeration first off. You are against a killable player character being able to deal out justice, but not an unkillable NPC. Calling that a "fundamental change to the game" is absurd. I could, with the same logic, argue that I bought the game based on the promise that the enforcer system was being implemented (see how I didn't call it wPvP) and now that it isn't, I require much more justification for the fundamental change to the game I thought ESO was going to be.

Secondly, no the OP can't promise you that, but wasn't that a part of the game you bought, the MMO you purchased. Just like no one can promise you that every single person isn't going to wage all out war on every NPC in the game now that we know there is basically no punishment for leading a life of crime besides a tricky dash to the crafting tables. This argument actually reeks of a sense of entitlement so much that I regret spending a portion of my lunch break having to address it.

MADshadowmans_Ghost · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I think with some simple rule sets, we could prevent this from becoming a pve slaughter fest. Here's my idea:

If you steal small things, like a bread or a drink and get caught, this should not make you attackable by other players. instead you gain a bounty just like it's now.
If your bounty reaches a certain level (maybe 5k), this should make you attackable.
This way you could easily avoid becoming attackable by not trying to get caught or paying off your bounty before it's too late.
If you attack someone, you should gain a bounty and the guards should take care of you. But if you kill someone, this should make you attackable.
With these simple rule sets it's possible to stay out of the pvp portion of the justice system by being careful, trying to be a good thief and by paying off your bounty before it reaches a certain level.
You can still be a small-time criminal and steal things to make money, and you can still punch a npc in the face if they say something stupid, but you cannot kill someone and expect to be safe. At this point you gotta pay with your blood.

What do you guys think about these ideas?

Zerok · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

There are ethical problems if they decide to implement a justice system.

When you're new to the game, thievery is pretty much the fastest way to create your starting capital. Learning the best spots to steal and how to avoid guards are the keys in doing so.

Of course, there comes a point when stealing becomes less lucrative than grinding or trading. This means veteran players don't need no steal (unless they're roleplaying or something).

So, what would happen is that veteran players who no longer need to steal would hunt down the new players who desperately need to create their starting capital.

This doesn't seem fair to me. Let's face it, there is already a huge wealth inequality in this game, why make it harder to new players?

Unless they implement it exclusively in the newest areas for roleplayers, I just can't see it happenning.

SLaytanic · January 2016

What makes you think that bringing the justice system would not bring zerg gangs and lag that is in cyrodiil into other traditionally pve zones throughout tamriel?

Elebeth · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I always imagined PvP portion of the justice system as an optional thing. When you get bored with playing the justice system as we have it now, you flag yourself and do some PvP with your "killing and stealing". When you get bored again, you un-flag yourself and you are back to the justice system as we have it now. No strings attached.

@Lefty_Lucy As you have stated, too many people are presuming that you will have to PvP if you want to participate in the justice system.

Then we have those who are against PvP aspect of the justice system because they are against any form of PvP in general. And then we have those who don't even want to hear about or observe PvP, let alone meet PvP in PvE zones.

I really hope that the justice system pt.2 wasn't scraped because people like those mentioned above.

P.S. I also agree with you about not giving up on something just because it's hard to implement and difficult to balance.

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

clupeiub17_ESO wrote: »

What makes you think that bringing the justice system would not bring zerg gangs and lag that is in cyrodiil into other traditionally pve zones throughout tamriel?

What makes you think they could not design it so this doesn't happen? They could limit it to a PvP enabled PvE zone, outside of the vanilla zones. They could force people to flag up and create rulesets such as proposed by @MADshadowmans_Ghost to limit PvP there, limit it by having smart zone design that discourages zerging and having rewards scale towards player involvement.

Of course people could 'abuse' the system by becoming Enforcers/criminals en masse and fighting out battles outside Cyrodiil. But they could do that in IC too, and it doesn't happen, cause it ain't got incentives to do so.

NewBlacksmurf · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Here is my observation.
The game has these mega servers but what seems to make more sense are
-PvP server
-PvE server
-Normal server

PvP would be all PvP everywhere you go (obviously this would not change faction only areas)

PvE would be PvE in areas that are normally for PvP

And then if it makes sense, a normal server which is as we are today.

I get the purpose of mega server tho as it bring more people together and it's the best option.
I think they should have never suggested thoughts on a PvP justice system and seemingly waste months or even years on trying to develop such. That's easy to say now but it's just a point of view after all of the said changes and changes on changes.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

To finally be able to do small scale pvp and avoid lag.

Also, was excited for people to try and claim my bounty. Emphasis on try.

Jura23 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Nice vid Lefty, it it seems like this train is already gone. The devs have other priorities, all that we can do is find our own way to deal with these news.

Anzriel · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

The sad part isn't even that the pvp part of the justice system was scapped. Well, that was sad, but the saddest part is this PvE vs PvP nonsense happening in this thread I see happening everywhere on this forum. ZOS has done such a mediocre job giving us either PvE or PvP endgame content that people feel the need to fight over scraps. Trials are 8+ months old, pvp lag has gotten worse and instead of ganging up on ZOS to tell them they need to get it together we jump down each other's throats because "we know ZOS can't handle x or y". How about we tell ZOS to get it together rather than simply encouraging them to be lazy and pass by anything that could be fun because it'd be too hard to implement. This could easily be handled with a system allowing people to flag up for the pvp part of it so PvE players who want to keep stealing for profit can, and can't be ganked/farmed.

However instead once again it's just being scrapped/put on the back burner. Like trials for the last 8 months. Like spellcrafting. Like arenas and battlegrounds for at least the next 6 months. The issue isn't "PvE" or "PvP" players. We need to hold those responsible to their promises. That does NOT mean raging entitled fits, or profanity laced tirades. Those get us nowhere. We need to organize and let ourselves be heard as one community. If they refuse to listen then we vote with our wallets and walk away. Things will not change if we keep aiming the vitriol at each other when we all know who actually makes the decisions. We need to stop encouraging lazy design.

Imperius_Skepta · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Well done Lefty! Finally someone fighting for the cause. Why do us PVEers and PVPers have to be against each other? Why can't we work together so we can both be happy?

Ffastyl · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

My initial reaction is "I can stop being a witness to crimes and start punishing it!"

But implementing any PvP without something akin to Battle Spirit in Cyrodiil is folly. We all know how high damage is. How high shields are. How high healing is. Even the 50% reductions in Battle Spirit barely keep it all in check. So enabling PvP in any area without Battle Spirit is a mistake.

Balancing the game around PvP will allow for PvP to be implemented outside of Cyrodiil. Remember the numbers we had prior to Update 6? The Battle Spirit prior to Update 6? It increased Max Health, like it always has, but it increased our armor penetration. The Battle Spirit of old increased our offensive power. The numbers then were balanced around PvP so only a small transition was needed to shift from PvE. Over the coming year(s) I hope to see ESO's numbers rebalanced around PvP, so we won't need a 50% reduction to everything, so the transition from PvE to PvP is not so jarring, so PvP can be enabled in other areas of the game.

After balancing the numbers so Battle Spirit is unnecessary, it will be a matter of reducing spawn camping, setting flags for when players are attackable and preventing players on either side of the law from zerging. These are big tasks and the last two are intertwined.

If the flags are set so only criminals of a certain heat can engage player guards in combat, it prevents outlaws from zerging enforcers. By imposing a limit on the number of active enforcers in a zone, it prevents outlaws from getting zerged. Ideally it would be a dynamic cap on active enforcers, adjusting to the number of criminals with high heat. This way if players decide to organize a flash mob to take over a city, the players that can react to and counter it are not limited. When the cap on active enforcers reduces as the criminals reduce, a warning is given to all active enforcers that there are too many in service and a countdown is started. As long as there are more enforcers than allowed when the countdown finishes, all enforcers are removed from active duty and forced to re-queue to be active. This countdown could also affect random enforcers rather than all but then it may as well automatically remove their active status rather than give them a countdown since they are forced to standby either way.

Bounty hunters, or players not affiliated with enforcers, can engage outlaws above a certain bounty threshold as opposed to a heat threshold. Players with high bounties can effectively become Kill On Sight for the entire player base. Of course, this can ruin the game for someone who unwittingly amasses a large bounty, so the threshold needs to be high. 10,000 gold bounty is a starting point. 1,000 gold may also be acceptable since misdemeanors only accrue a couple hundred gold in bounty. Though, with a state where all players are enemies, it can be argued to not implement bounty hunters and all player-on-player enforcement to enforcers.

Spawn camping, at both wayshrines and from outlaw/enforcer bases, will require level design and system design to reduce. Outlaw/enforcer bases will need multiple exit points so normally there are not enough players to camp all points (there is still the risk of flash mobs). Wayshrine resurrection can be treated like keep resurrection in Cyrodiil, allowing the player to decide which wayshrine to respawn at. But only from PvP deaths. The system will be used to bloodport otherwise. Alternatively players at risk of PvP can be given a grace period after resurrecting, similar to the safe zones in the Imperial City. This grace period could be a timer, starting when they load in alive, or could be a safe zone encompassing the wayshrine. If the latter, players at risk of PvP need to be incapable of fast travel as it allows an unfair method of escape. The wayshrines also risk becoming like the Imperial Sewers ladders were in a past patch when long loading screens were an issue, a place for gankers to run and hide with impunity, simply waiting for their pursuers to turn around. So barring multiple minute loading screens, an invulnerability timer is the method to implement for wayshrine resurrection.

All this speculation and suggestion is nothing without the rebalancing of stats. And that is a far more complex and time consuming endeavor. Like the lag in Cyrodiil, we need to deal with each imbalance as they come until there are no more.

WalkingLegacy · January 2016

I'd have to see their plans for it before I decided.

I feel like the gankers just want it so they can release their nut over PvE players

FlicksZ · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

I take it you didn't get yesterday's memo.

Read it here:
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2016/01/12/eso--the-year-ahead

I take it you did not watch the video where he addresses this while reading it or watched it but didn't understand what he meant?

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Anzriel wrote: »

The sad part isn't even that the pvp part of the justice system was scapped. Well, that was sad, but the saddest part is this PvE vs PvP nonsense happening in this thread I see happening everywhere on this forum. ZOS has done such a mediocre job giving us either PvE or PvP endgame content that people feel the need to fight over scraps. Trials are 8+ months old, pvp lag has gotten worse and instead of ganging up on ZOS to tell them they need to get it together we jump down each other's throats because "we know ZOS can't handle x or y". How about we tell ZOS to get it together rather than simply encouraging them to be lazy and pass by anything that could be fun because it'd be too hard to implement. This could easily be handled with a system allowing people to flag up for the pvp part of it so PvE players who want to keep stealing for profit can, and can't be ganked/farmed.

However instead once again it's just being scrapped/put on the back burner. Like trials for the last 8 months. Like spellcrafting. Like arenas and battlegrounds for at least the next 6 months. The issue isn't "PvE" or "PvP" players. We need to hold those responsible to their promises. That does NOT mean raging entitled fits, or profanity laced tirades. Those get us nowhere. We need to organize and let ourselves be heard as one community. If they refuse to listen then we vote with our wallets and walk away. Things will not change if we keep aiming the vitriol at each other when we all know who actually makes the decisions. We need to stop encouraging lazy design.

So much this. I made a thread about. But the mouth breathers would rather just blame each other.

Voxicity · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Played an open world PvP game which is somewhat similar I suppose, really enjoyed it

killabunny1234b16_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I love the idea of open world pvp (flag or toggle based).

The justice system as it is now is totally boring to me. I think it held my attention for 30 min or less when it 1st came out. But adding a much more advanced system like bounty hunting and leader boards for the best good and bad guys opens up the game no end.

The content for this type of system is all most endless and sounds very fun..
- PvP bounty hunter guilds
- PvP content / quests / open world events
- Dark Brotherhood / Thieves guild content like daily assassination quests
- Updates to Riften or other areas to instanced pvp battles of good Vs evil
- Rewards like lawful and lawless costumes / mounts and titles and even new v16 loot with light / dark side styles

This type of content could add countless hours of new exciting game play for PvE and PvP players to the game and be one of the biggest draws to eso since release (if done right).

Multiplayer endgame content with good gear / long term progression is something ESO needs right now, both PvP and PvE.
This could go a long way to help in the total lack of PvP added to the game sine release.

Iluvrien · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iluvrien wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

I haven't played a game where there is a PvP Justice system, but I have played ones where I have taken part in Justice type situations in wPvP enabled systems. Including this in the voting options is an appeal to authority: "You only get your views on the subject taken seriously if you have done it in the past and haven't liked it". No. Just no.

Your response to the person who didn't want to see PvP going on was also lacking. "Come on dude" isn't a reasoned response. It isn't playing devil's advocate. It is dismissing the concern of another player based on your own bias. The same goes for not having heard "a single reason that has convinced" you. There have been plenty of reasons given since launch. I suspect the issue is that you dismiss them based on your desire for this system, rather than that they are actually bad, or even unconvincing, arguments.

And, for the record, the reason I am glad that this isn't being implemented is because I don't want to see it. Ever. This game was launched without wPvP. If they are going to introduce it then they are going to need to make a much stronger argument than anyone has done before I will accept how this will impact on my own play time. The current version of the justice system already does, sometimes when I am in a bank, the entire environment explodes as some hapless idiot takes on the guards in there. You think that contributes to my ability to critically consider what I should/shouldn't keep... or how best to fulfill a crafting order? Do you honestly believe that this will occur less if the PvP part of the justice system is implemented?

Quite simply, unless someone can promise that all Justice flagged players would be phased out of my sight, I am going to be against this... and remain against it.

"Come on dude" is about as justifiable an argument as, "it didn't have it before so I don't want it" or "it might distract me"!

No, it isn't. "Come on dude" is an exclamation that contains no factual content.

"it didn't have it before so I don't want it" is related to the idea that you bought a product with certain expectations based on preview material, interviews, etc. world PvP was not one of those things. I suggested that they would need a better argument, or certain conditions, in place before being happy for them to make yet another fundamental alteration to the game.

"it might distract me" wasn't what I said. I said "the current level of justice content does distract me". This is one the reasons I argued against it when they started talking about it. My view hasn't changed. I asked the OP if he expected the added wPvP elements to decrease that possibility. Still waiting for my answer.

So no, the statements aren't equivalent. One was an exclamation that added nothing to the discussion but the OP's incredulity... the latter two actually contained the basis of an argument. You really still think that they are similarly justifiable? Or do you want to take another run up at that?

K, perhaps what I should have said was, your arguments against, carry about as much weight as "come on dude".
To call it world PvP is basically an over exaggeration first off. You are against a killable player character being able to deal out justice, but not an unkillable NPC. Calling that a "fundamental change to the game" is absurd. I could, with the same logic, argue that I bought the game based on the promise that the enforcer system was being implemented (see how I didn't call it wPvP) and now that it isn't, I require much more justification for the fundamental change to the game I thought ESO was going to be.

Secondly, no the OP can't promise you that, but wasn't that a part of the game you bought, the MMO you purchased. Just like no one can promise you that every single person isn't going to wage all out war on every NPC in the game now that we know there is basically no punishment for leading a life of crime besides a tricky dash to the crafting tables. This argument actually reeks of a sense of entitlement so much that I regret spending a portion of my lunch break having to address it.

"come on dude" isn't an argument and therefore cannot carry weight as one. One thing you may notice is that I included reasons for my views, and even a suggestion that would mean I would support the introduction of the system as described. (Hint: It's the bit where I mention phasing)

Calling it a fundamental change to the game isn't absurd. The introduction of PvP in any form into what are currently purely PvE areas is a fundamental change. That you refuse to see it as such, even going as far as to construct a strawman argument in an attempt to dismiss it, suggests a fair amount about your own bias. Further to this, you couldn't argue the opposite position with the same logic, because to do that you would have to find articles and interviews that specify that the justice system would be implemented in the game with a PvP component at launch. The justice system, if memory serves, started getting reported about in or around October 2014... or about 6 months after release. That would make those promo materials pretty hard to find, don't you think?

Of course the OP can't promise me that the introduction of PvP justice won't contribute to the distractions. That was the point I was originally making. Of course what I do remember is that people said that bringing the first phase of the Justice system into towns wouldn't impinge on the playing activities of anyone who wasn't actively carrying out criminal activities, and that those of us who raised concerns at the time were fear-mongering. Seems rather similar to your argument now.

If you think a rationally worded argument, raising concerns about the way this debate is being framed, is based around a sense of entitlement... while not actually bothering to address the points made... well, then maybe your time really would have been better spent concentrating on your food because you sure-as-heck aren't contributing anything useful here.

FlicksZ · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

To add why I am in favour of the Justice system it is pretty simple. More options for players. I have always said its about the implementation in any game.

As usual there is so much misinformation / scaremongering on the forums and this one is no different. In fact it is even more evident in this forum as the community is soo fragmented by the different groups which play game and the choices that are made for them which pits them against eachother. From PVP - PVE and any subgroups within each. Classic example is IC.

AlnilamE · January 2016

I don't care either way, but I understand that development resources are finit and if you ask your average PvP player if they'd prefer arenas or Justice System PvP, I think the majority would say arenas. That would also likely be easier to program.

So I'll take more PvP objetives and arenas over the PvP potion of the Justice System.

Orchish · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

As a PvPer this was one of the main features that kept me playing. Giving me hope that we had something new and fresh coming. Something else other than the terrible laggy Cyrodiil experience that seems to only get worse rather than fixed with each new update. Reading that year ahead post and seeing that there is absolutely no new content for PvP coming as a PvPer was disappointing. As if knowing nothing new is coming for us wasn't bad enough, yet to hear that the one thing we were getting is now scrapped... I just don't know what to say. I have zero desire to log into the game right now. I get that PvE has a bigger player base, but to completely neglect part of your player base just feels wrong. I remember the days when we had a much larger PvP community on this game, back when we could get thousands of votes in threads about AoE caps etc. I wonder how many would have stuck around if the PvP side of the game had gotten a little more love.

The Imperial city update was the one update we had, and it turned out to be a PvE zone with PvP enabled. A complete slap in the face to the PvP community. I've been here since beta, and i have over 2 thousand hours in this game. Yep i have no life, but i love the PvP in this game, when it's not laggy it's the best out there. Just a shame to see ZoS don't agree.

Kwivur · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I'd like a bounty board with criminals who happened to have eluded the guards and got away with the crime. If their bounty is 500g and you find them, kill them and collect 500g from THEIR pockets. It's a brutal system, but people would think twice about trying for the murderer achievement.. lol. This is really the only way to implement this without it being exploited, but the risk vs rewards concept has always been appealing to me. The ability to HUNT other players without them being marked on the compass would be really awesome. I too like stealing and murdering, which would add a "trust nobody", hide from society type game play. This would make the game fun again for me, because now, it's just the same crap over and over.

Celestially · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Here is my opinion.
I have never played a game like this and have never expirenced a justice system before
I am for the justice system here's why.
I believe its important for "ZOSE" to see all aspects of the game weather its pve or PvP this system will further add to the PvP system and at the same time add depth to the pve system. This justice system if done correctly sounds like it will be extremely fun to participate in and if it doesn't sound so fun to you than there should be a toggle to the justice system to be a participater or a by stander . If they add this system it will only bring in more players and unite the current players. the people of ESO will be able to create guilds of thevies and criminals and than the people can make guilds of officers of the law . I try to understand both sides to this but personally I don't see why putting this in the game (IF DONE CORRECTLY) would do any negative in the game.
Thanks for reading my opinion.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Iluvrien wrote: »

If you think a rationally worded argument, raising concerns about the way this debate is being framed, is based around a sense of entitlement... while not actually bothering to address the points made... well, then maybe your time really would have been better spent concentrating on your food because you sure-as-heck aren't contributing anything useful here.

And you sure as heck do not contribute to a polite and constructive exchange of views.
Your basic argumentation looks elaborate but it can be summarized as "I don't want it because I don't like it and therefore don't need it. I will not tolerate it either for the sake of other players who might enjoy it because I don't care about anyone else but myself".

The part where you state that whatever guard/thief fight occurring near you disrupts your bank operations deserves no more than "come on Dude..." but if you really want a detailed explanation, here it is : this is an MMO, which means a shared playground, if you're not ready to endure such basic events like a fight near you, you'd better play a single player game.

As to the argument that "it wasn't advertised as such when I bought the base game", itsounds very opportunistic. With arguments like that, you could put down any innovative step from ZOS that would not have been announced in 2014 already. If it was something you'd actually like, and someone else would come with such an argument, you'd find it just as out of place.

MMO are meant to evolve, else they die. That's their nature. Arguing that they cannot be different from what they were at launch is just nonsensical when it comes to MMOs.

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