"We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System."

wayfarerx · January 2016

Neoauspex wrote: »

They could've pulled this off. Dying doesn't matter in this game anyway, who cares if you are level 10 and you do a quest that makes you a criminal and then you get jacked up and, oh no, teleported to a nearby wayshrine with your crime gone. The enforcer earns a bounty that cost the criminal nothing but 30 seconds of their life, and who knows maybe the two parties chat about the experience and form a friendship or a rivalry or a lifelong quest for revenge. That **** is fun. Maybe a PvE player branches out and tries PvP when they otherwise would have completed the single player content and moved onto a new game. Back in the old MUD days there was a good chance your character would get deleted when you died, it's not like you have to worry about that. It's such a big world, it'd be so fun to add the competitive aspect and all the roleplaying possibilities of real player interaction to all of it.

I used to think they could pull this off, but IC changed my mind. ZOS tried to mix PvP & PvE and pretty much everyone hated it. PvE players want a faction-locked place to farm in peace, PvP players hate all the OP mobs everywhere. The only people it really worked for were the gankers. While that's good for them, I don't think turning the entire overworld map into another NB gank fest would be a good idea (and this is coming from someone with a v16 stamblade gank character).

TheBonesXXX · January 2016

CromulentForumID wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Congratulations Carebears,

PvP community gets screwed again.

As a PVPer, I would think you would want to test your skills against other PVPers, people who build their characters for that and practice their skills against other players.

The justice system would not seem to represent that player base at all. It is a lot more likely you would be fighting PVE-specced players who never PVP'd, forgot to manage their settings, or otherwise stumbled into your path.

That sounds more like someone who is looking to grief or otherwise ruin another player's day instead of engaging in challenging PVP content.

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and not generalize, but then I read your signature. You seem to be proud of ruining the experience of others.

I would be willing to bet real money that a lot of the "PVP Community" has better things to do than to kill players who offer no challenge.

The only way that you could say you are actually looking for a challenge and not easy pickings is if you think large quantities of PVPers will flock to the PVE zones, start to steal things, then run around in the open world looking for challenges. That seems to be a really inefficient way of getting the open world PVP you can get right now.

I don't think you need to look much farther than IC and all of the ladder and entrance camping that goes on to see just some of the headaches adding PVP to the justice system would bring about.

First off, don't assume cause you know what they say.

I break up duels because they're trivializing the Three faction PVP aspect of PVP by not supporting their faction. I have my reasons for breaking duels, because that's all anyone does anymore, comes around and duels and people who are actively trying to support their faction gets screwed. You must be proud to watch your faction bust their ass so people can duel in the corner and high five and hold hands and completely ruin the War.

I get tired of someone on my own faction giving away my location to enemy players just so they have their duel spot, so yeah, I will never honor duels.

Second off - I steal things, I would have racked up a bounty just for the thrill of being hunted and then testing my abilities while being hunted by masses, because I enjoy the thrill. Thats hardly the point, the point is we were lied too again.

I'm from the your red your dead era, full loot, no holds barred, no remorse, no quarter purest form of PKing out there, I'm not a PvPer, I'm a PKer.

The headache of ladders is that it's doesn't have a timer, its a complete safe zone and very poor comparison when it comes to world PvP or PKing in general.

But by all means, assume away.

Neoauspex · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

I used to think they could pull this off, but IC changed my mind. ZOS tried to mix PvP & PvE and pretty much everyone hated it. PvE players want a faction-locked place to farm in peace, PvP players hate all the OP mobs everywhere. The only people it really worked for were the gankers. While that's good for them, I don't think turning the entire overworld map into another NB gank fest would be a good idea (and this is coming from someone with a v16 stamblade gank character).

I understand the concern, it is a valid one. But I do think the sheer amount of space would mitigate the "gankfest" environment and these sort of interactions would be more like chases or hide and seek. Even if they restricted it to just the veteran zones as an experiment that would be better than completely scrapping the project.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2016

I'm not too sad about this. It was kind of the wrong way to bring more PvP to the game. It would have been about putting PvP in PvE.

If there is anything I have learned about PvE'ers in the last year and a half, is that they are the most skiddish, risk-averse, and anti-competitive people on the face of the planet. Its not just that they don't like fighting, they never want to die. In PvE or in PvP. If they die once, even in PvE, even if their build is trash, they complain to ZOS to make the game easier.

Putting these precious carebears at risk in a PvE zone everytime they accidentally stole something and gained a bounty would probably stress them out and give them a heart attack. The tears would form rivers.

I am all for more PvP in this game but it needs to be isolated, and far away from PvE'ers so they don't cry and get it nerfed. I would rather ZOS work on opt-in duels, arenas, or battlegrounds than the justice system.

Sadly they will probably just work on more dresses and bear mounts.

Divinius · January 2016

.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I'm not too sad about this. It was kind of the wrong way to bring more PvP to the game. It would have been about putting PvP in PvE.

If there is anything I have learned about PvE'ers in the last year and a half, is that they are the most skiddish, risk-averse, and anti-competitive people on the face of the planet. Its not just that they don't like fighting, they never want to die. In PvE or in PvP. If they die once, even in PvE, even if their build is trash, they complain to ZOS to make the game easier.

Putting these precious carebears at risk in a PvE zone everytime they accidentally stole something and gained a bounty would probably stress them out and give them a heart attack. The tears would form rivers.

I am all for more PvP in this game but it needs to be isolated, and far away from PvE'ers so they don't cry and get it nerfed. I would rather ZOS work on opt-in duels, arenas, or battlegrounds than the justice system.

Sadly they will probably just work on more dresses and bear mounts.

Saying that "all PvE players are precious care-bears that never want to die" is kinda like saying "all PvP players are sociopathic sadists that get their jollies from griefing players that are far weaker they they are." Unfair, and (while perhaps true in some cases), hardly reflects the majority of the group.

Other than that needless bashing of PvE players, your post is spot-on.

Autolycus · January 2016

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Congratulations Carebears,

PvP community gets screwed again.

This whole "us" versus "them" mentality, albeit typical and expected from anyone who is human, is getting really old.

There are so many people, myself included, who do vast amounts of both PvE and PvP content. I don't understand why they scrapped this - although I presume it was to focus on releasing DLCs and cash shop junk. Another thing I don't understand is why PvPers think this was for them exclusively. So many PvErs have been looking forward to this for months too, and it's arguably the only thing making crime & punishment even noticeable in this game.

I agree that this would have brought many PvPers out of Cyrodiil and back into domestic territories. But, it really has nothing to do with PvPers getting screwed. We all got screwed out of this content.

vamp_emily · January 2016

Sallington wrote: »

Obviously people don't want any more gameplay depth, and would rather they spend resources on churning out half-baked DLC and cash store mounts.

I'm done.

So sad to hear your done. You wouldn't happen to have a few yellow item?

give me, give me your stuff please.

tinythinker · January 2016

Nestor wrote: »

However, the horse is buried now, no need to beat it anymore.

On these forums? Never!

wolfwoods · January 2016

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Elder Scrolls has essentially been a series of story lines in which your character ascends towards godhood. Only a god or another player should be able to stop your crime spree. Unkillable guards policing player activity is the worst immersion buster I have ever seen in a game.

Why don't the leaders of each alliance send just one of their local constabulary from a backwater village to Cold Harbour?

All they had to do was set a bounty level at which you flag for PvP. Don't want to PvP? Pay your bounty off before it gets to that level.

Could make is slightly more complicated by setting levels of crime that flag you. Kill 10 innocent NPCs, flagged. Rob High King Emeric? Flagged. Steal potatoes over and over again from the local merchant, everyone looks the other way.

You saved all of Tamriel after all.

I agree and I'm disappointed it isn't happening. I've been reading all these posts and I think most people against it are thinking about it too simply. I think it could be easily controlled and besides that, the last couple times I've spent time in a city, I've maybe heard one battle going on against the guards. Thieves aren't running wild all over the place like you all seem to think.

The way it should work is kinda like what Wreuntzylla said. You can pay off your bounty if you don't want to participate, but say you get flagged once your bounty is at 2000. If you don't pay it off your character gets added to a bounty board. There bounty hunters (or enforcers or whatever) can check it and pick up the bounty on your head. Only one person can pick up each bounty and only the criminal and the hunter can engage in combat (maybe unless you party with a couple friends) so there aren't zergs after the same people causing lag and whatnot.

The bounty hunter is notified of that person's last known location and they have to try to chase them down and maybe every 10 minutes or so they get a random tip that someone spotted them at such and such a place. It ends when either the hunter kills them and collects the bounty (resetting the criminal's bounty level) or the criminal kills the hunter (increasing his bounty worth but ending the hunter's quest and sending the criminal's name back to the bounty board). Or of course if the bounty hunter gets tired of hunting and abandons it, also returning the name to the board.

And guess what, if your too low a level and keep dying but you want to pick up bountys anyway, rally a few friends and negotiate the bounty split.

I don't know, but I would love to see that, and I don't think it would be too overwhelming for anybody. There are a lot of odds in there that would mean probably not a ton of combat in cities.

Autolycus · January 2016

wolfwoods wrote: »

I don't know, but I would love to see that, and I don't think it would be too overwhelming for anybody. There are a lot of odds in there that would mean probably not a ton of combat in cities.

I cut down the quote to save space, but I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think many of the ideas you suggested were part of the initial leaked/teased concepts. I think initially they were going to have specific safe zones (other than outlaw refuges) for people specifically taking part in this type of content, but I guess we'll never know now. A damn shame...

Kelleton · January 2016

More like the road back...they killed off spell crafting and justice system and didn't give anything interesting to look forward to. Time to inactivate again soon I guess.

Zinaroth · January 2016

Called this pretty much from the first day it was talked about back when Justice System was just an idea. No way such a heavy penalty PvP system would make it into a theme park MMO that mostly caters to casuals.

Personofsecrets · January 2016

LOL

Feast or famine?

petraeus1 · January 2016

For all the people saying the idea was bad, flawed, problematic: why would ZOS have to do a global implementation? I would've loved it if e.g. Kvatch or whatever zone they're doing down the line, had some (lore-friendly) issue whereby it needed player guards to reinforce its NPC army. That way it would be limited, similar to IC. People would know: hey, Kvatch/The Gold Coast has amazing items to steal, but it has player guards. The rest of the world would stay as it is. I dunno, I think it could've worked that way. I just hope ZOS will be able to salvage the work that has been done on the system until now.

wayfarerx · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

For all the people saying the idea was bad, flawed, problematic: why would ZOS have to do a global implementation? I would've loved it if e.g. Kvatch or whatever zone they're doing down the line, had some (lore-friendly) issue whereby it needed player guards to reinforce its NPC army. That way it would be limited, similar to IC. People would know: hey, Kvatch/The Gold Coast has amazing items to steal, but it has player guards. The rest of the world would stay as it is. I dunno, I think it could've worked that way. I just hope ZOS will be able to salvage the work that has been done on the system until now.

This is about the only way I could imagine it working and I really hope they have something like this up their sleeve in one of the next two DLCs.

Valen_Byte · January 2016

We all new this to be true when they announced it....nothing new here...just Zo$ finally catching up to the rest of us lol

Darkonflare15 · January 2016

I know for a fact that if this system would of came out most of the people on this forum would still be disappointed. This is the player community of this game. They clearly do not know what they want.

Valen_Byte · January 2016

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

I know for a fact that if this system would of came out most of the people on this forum would still be disappointed. This is the player community of this game. They clearly do not know what they want.

You can not use the word "fact" and "if" in the same sentence.

An "if", is not a fact....just sayin

Tandor · January 2016

Excellent news, there was never any justification for introducing PvP into the open world as part of a PvE system. If the community's reaction to IC has taught ZOS anything, it is surely that PvP and PvE content don't mix well in the same zone.

Lefty_Lucy · January 2016

Oh well. So much for the only thing I was looking forward to in this game.

Good luck surviving 2016, ESO. I hope you can, but this is a big step in the wrong direction.

Also, to everyone who thinks this never could have worked, all we needed was an opt-in / opt-out system. It would be extremely simple. Many games have done it.

Don't want to be PK'ed? Don't flag up. You could still steal items without participating in the PvP aspect; just don't opt-in the the PvP aspect. This of course means the PvP aspect needs to be incentivised - fine, easy, either increase rewards or reduce bounties when flagged up.

Also, why wouldn't the PvE players want the chance to uphold the law and claim someone's bounties? You would literally lose nothing by attempting to kill someone who has stolen goods if you are upholding the law. And you could take their bounties / goods if you succeeded in killing them. The criminals could be prevented from attacking law abiding citizens until a law abiding citizen attacks them first.

Get a group of 5 law abiding citizens together if you see someone who has a bounty. Go kill him. Make money off of him.

Some of us would literally be stealing things solely to incentivize law abiding citizens to attack us. And maybe we would kill a few of the law abiding citizens. Then what? Our bounties increase. The reward for our death increases. And we would eventually die because the law abiding citizens would multiply in numbers.

Everyone seems to think a justice system with PvP means that towns would be in a state of complete chaos 24/7. That just isn't the case. Check out Age of Wushu. This has been done before.

I just don't understand why anyone in their right mind would refuse the Justice System's PvP aspect when ZOS never released any specific details on how it would be implemented. Why assume that you would be missing out on something if you didn't participate? My post here clearly demonstrates that this system could be inplemented fairly. All we need to do is help ZOS with the details so that everyone is happy.

Hopefully ZOS revists this one day. I've been waiting for an MMO that is a complete package for a long time. I was hoping it would be ESO. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Edit: Mobile typos

Autolycus · January 2016

Tandor wrote: »

Excellent news, there was never any justification for introducing PvP into the open world as part of a PvE system. If the community's reaction to IC has taught ZOS anything, it is surely that PvP and PvE content don't mix well in the same zone.

I think you're right, provided it was ever intended to be a pvp/pve hybrid like IC. My understanding is that it would be purely pvp, though it would occur in the existing pve zones. Seems to me that there are a variety of options for implementation. Likely the reason it was scrapped was due to a desire to focus on other content or crown store junk.

wolfwoods · January 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

I cut down the quote to save space, but I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think many of the ideas you suggested were part of the initial leaked/teased concepts. I think initially they were going to have specific safe zones (other than outlaw refuges) for people specifically taking part in this type of content, but I guess we'll never know now. A damn shame...

Yeah, sorry if I repeated ideas that had been stated. I didn't really follow much of the chatter about it back in the day.

And yeah, it is a damn shame. Could have been a huge aspect of the game that would have set it apart, but oh well now.

Gidorick · January 2016

wolfwoods wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

I cut down the quote to save space, but I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think many of the ideas you suggested were part of the initial leaked/teased concepts. I think initially they were going to have specific safe zones (other than outlaw refuges) for people specifically taking part in this type of content, but I guess we'll never know now. A damn shame...

Yeah, sorry if I repeated ideas that had been stated. I didn't really follow much of the chatter about it back in the day.

And yeah, it is a damn shame. Could have been a huge aspect of the game that would have set it apart, but oh well now.

I love your ideas @wolfwoods, the idea of a players bounty needing to get to "pvp" status is brilliant! It's not that it can't be done, ZOS just doesn't think it would be worth the effort.

DaniAngione · January 2016

It might come around eventually, we never know...

They *DID* say they would never leave the subscription model...
They *DID* say they would add horse races...

So we have tons of examples that things can change.

My guess is: there's nothing to do with gameplay. They seemed to have the gameplay concept pretty solid in their plans.

I think it's about lag. About the fear of turning every major capital/city into Cyrodiil lag/unplayability. Lag on PVP is something the game can endure because it only truly affects a part of the community. Now, that same lag on every city/quest hub? With new players being greeted by such poor performance?

It would be a game killer.

So yeah, I think it's off the chart until performance is figured out.

Vrienda · January 2016

Thank Y'ffre for that. I hate PvP but love the justice system.

wolfwoods · January 2016

Thanks @Gidorick.

Another idea that would be sweet is if once you join the Thieves or Brotherhood, they protect you from the bounty up to a certain point. So maybe you have to have a bounty of 5000 to get on the board. That way you don't get totally screwed over for joining some hopefully really awesome questlines.

Anyway, I should stop dreaming. Its just making me more sad that it will never happen, and I imagine someone else has already had these ideas out elsewhere.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · January 2016

I'm happy that there won't be any PvP outside of cyrodiil. PvP is such a toxic waste anyway and it's not needed outside of cyrodiil, keep it there and leave the rest of the game fun without griefers around every corner.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · January 2016

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Congratulations Carebears,

PvP community gets screwed again.

Thank you, and you're welcome

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · January 2016

Kwivur wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

The way the justice system is designed, committing crimes is almost a necessity (and actually is a necessity to complete some quests). Presumably, the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLCs will involve committing a LOT of crimes.

Some people just really hate PvP. Those people shouldn't have to limit their gold-making options, avoid certain quests, and be locked out of entire DLCs because what should be a completed unrelated "justice system" got stupidly incorporated into PvP.

This was by far the smartest decision they could have made.

Then play a game that doesn't have PvP..

Or go play a game that have open world PvP..

Magdalina · January 2016

Coming from someone who pretty much does not PvP and HATES being ganked - this is actually sad.
Yes it wouldn't be easy to implement but it COULD be amazing if implemented well and they could, you know, try to actually make something they promised work for once instead of introducing dumb looking mount/pet/costume #1438725. I know quite a few people who'll leave for this and even more who have left already but would've come back had it been implemented.

Besides, as a song says, "if you can't keep your mind to the deed, don't say a word". Stop tempting players with things you're never going to do, @ZOS. Or if you actually promise something, stick to what you say. Would've been a nice change since as it is no one who's been here a while trusts a word you say.