"We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System."

Tryxus

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

Artheiron

oh my god... look at these naysayers. they're all jumping with joy, celebrating the zos' decision to sell them yet another half baked dlc. The only "elder scrolls game" that you'll pay money for thieves and dark brotherhood seperately. And more quest rewards to be sold as crown store trash. I hope you get what you deserve.

Meanwhile indie developers with 100 times less budged than zos doing better job. Delivering games that has great depth. This is just sad. Wish that my customers are all like you.

Kozer

Tryxus wrote: »

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

All of that is easily countered.

You have to be within X level range to bring someone down.

If you steal a fish you are not flagged for pvp by enforcers. There is a threshold that must be passed. IE Rack up a 1k bounty before other players can join in

Same faction is easy.

You get flagged as an enemy to law abiding people. Once you are flagged you can stealth without worry.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Kozer wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tryxus wrote: »

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

All of that is easily countered.

You have to be within X level range to bring someone down.

If you steal a fish you are not flagged for pvp by enforcers. There is a threshold that must be passed. IE Rack up a 1k bounty before other players can join in

Same faction is easy.

You get flagged as an enemy to law abiding people. Once you are flagged you can stealth without worry.

Face it after IC people who pvp have proven they simply cannot be trusted with the pvp portion of the justice system. Thats why they scrapped it and thats also why you wont see another pvp centered DLC. IC didnt sell very well and everyone who bought it pretty much hated it. Both on pvp side and pve side. Players cannot be trusted being "enforcers" all they will do is use every means necessary to grief everyone else in the game.

So ya justice system pvp is not coming. Its not worth spending limited development time on and it will just drive away people in the end.

KanedaSyndrome

Sallington wrote: »

In other words, "We are not releasing the only interesting thing about the Justice System."

Indeed. They are sackless when it comes to emergent gameplay and innovation.

babylon

Yeah because alienating 90% of your player base from being able to participate in a PVE activity would have been a good idea, and would certainly make them money just the way all those pure PVP games are such big money earners.

*That was sarcasm btw for the slower amongst you.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sallington wrote: »

In other words, "We are not releasing the only interesting thing about the Justice System."

Indeed. They are sackless when it comes to emergent gameplay and innovation.

Emergent gameplay and innovation meaning ganking PvErs, wow, so much innovation, it's not like there's a million of those MMO's already....

Daedgaming

I do not care about the justice system, what I do want is a revamped crime system where npc bounty hunters come after you and stealing and killing can lead to interesting titles and what not. I

MornaBaine

While I think it's disappointing to see it scrapped outright I think they'd be smarter to put the effort into a dueling system and small scale PvP arenas.

Dubhliam

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kozer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

All of that is easily countered.

You have to be within X level range to bring someone down.

If you steal a fish you are not flagged for pvp by enforcers. There is a threshold that must be passed. IE Rack up a 1k bounty before other players can join in

Same faction is easy.

You get flagged as an enemy to law abiding people. Once you are flagged you can stealth without worry.

Face it after IC people who pvp have proven they simply cannot be trusted with the pvp portion of the justice system. Thats why they scrapped it and thats also why you wont see another pvp centered DLC. IC didnt sell very well and everyone who bought it pretty much hated it. Both on pvp side and pve side. Players cannot be trusted being "enforcers" all they will do is use every means necessary to grief everyone else in the game.

So ya justice system pvp is not coming. Its not worth spending limited development time on and it will just drive away people in the end.

Apples and Oranges.

IC: you are eiligible to be ganked as soon as you stepped into Imperial City.
PvP Justice: you would have to be careless enough to accumulate a large enough bounty (lvl 3) to be flagged "kill on sight".

I still think ZOS should grow a pair and bring us phase 2 of the Justice system.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

show previous quotes

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Kozer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

All of that is easily countered.

You have to be within X level range to bring someone down.

If you steal a fish you are not flagged for pvp by enforcers. There is a threshold that must be passed. IE Rack up a 1k bounty before other players can join in

Same faction is easy.

You get flagged as an enemy to law abiding people. Once you are flagged you can stealth without worry.

Face it after IC people who pvp have proven they simply cannot be trusted with the pvp portion of the justice system. Thats why they scrapped it and thats also why you wont see another pvp centered DLC. IC didnt sell very well and everyone who bought it pretty much hated it. Both on pvp side and pve side. Players cannot be trusted being "enforcers" all they will do is use every means necessary to grief everyone else in the game.

So ya justice system pvp is not coming. Its not worth spending limited development time on and it will just drive away people in the end.

Apples and Oranges.

IC: you are eiligible to be ganked as soon as you stepped into Imperial City.
PvP Justice: you would have to be careless enough to accumulate a large enough bounty (lvl 3) to be flagged "kill on sight".

I still think ZOS should grow a pair and bring us phase 2 of the Justice system.

And I still think that it's good that it's not going into the game. PvP can stay in cyro where it belongs. Too many things that can and will be exploited and maybe never fixed and it'll just drive away a big part of the population.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

show previous quotes

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Kozer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

All of that is easily countered.

You have to be within X level range to bring someone down.

If you steal a fish you are not flagged for pvp by enforcers. There is a threshold that must be passed. IE Rack up a 1k bounty before other players can join in

Same faction is easy.

You get flagged as an enemy to law abiding people. Once you are flagged you can stealth without worry.

Face it after IC people who pvp have proven they simply cannot be trusted with the pvp portion of the justice system. Thats why they scrapped it and thats also why you wont see another pvp centered DLC. IC didnt sell very well and everyone who bought it pretty much hated it. Both on pvp side and pve side. Players cannot be trusted being "enforcers" all they will do is use every means necessary to grief everyone else in the game.

So ya justice system pvp is not coming. Its not worth spending limited development time on and it will just drive away people in the end.

Apples and Oranges.

IC: you are eiligible to be ganked as soon as you stepped into Imperial City.
PvP Justice: you would have to be careless enough to accumulate a large enough bounty (lvl 3) to be flagged "kill on sight".

I still think ZOS should grow a pair and bring us phase 2 of the Justice system.

lol grow a pair? This isnt some school yard childrens argument. Its a business people pay their bills and feed their family with. Grow a pair lol.

Necrelios

Joy_Division wrote: »

This helps explain the ZoS's decision to reverse their "no dueling" attitude.

Justice PvP would have been difficult to balance - something ZoS admitted at the time when they phased in the first part - and am glad to see them divert manpower and resources elsewhere.

Well, to be fair, we do have unkillable guards already so perhaps they should look at that from a balancing point of view now instead. The guards introduced with Thieves Guild are now even tougher and take advantage of more advanced AI scripting as well so they are harder to escape from.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Necrelios wrote: »

show previous quotes

Joy_Division wrote: »

This helps explain the ZoS's decision to reverse their "no dueling" attitude.

Justice PvP would have been difficult to balance - something ZoS admitted at the time when they phased in the first part - and am glad to see them divert manpower and resources elsewhere.

Well, to be fair, we do have unkillable guards already so perhaps they should look at that from a balancing point of view now instead. The guards introduced with Thieves Guild are now even tougher and take advantage of more advanced AI scripting as well so they are harder to escape from.

Well, the guards right now at least don't exploit the game like some PvPers do, which is why I'm very happy that no PvP justice will be in the game. Without having any mods etc that ban exploiters in the game they'd have free reign over the game and make people leave in droves.

Aelthwyn

I am SO relieved they abandoned that idea! I was NOT looking forward to PVP battles raging in cities, or people camped out just waiting to jump on criminals at key places - like thieves refuge entrances and quest steps that require breaking in, and merchant stalls where it’s all too easy to take a helmet instead of talking to the trader, etc. As it is already with people spamming abilities in banks and fighting NPC guards in the streets, it gets irritating when you’re just trying to have a conversation with the banker or merchant and then hearing that ‘press x to activate ___’ alert noise when someone casts their ultimate and all the other chaos of noise and visual effects going on. I certainly don’t want even more of that when I’m not in enemy territory/in battle myself.

Which brings me to the already mentioned suggestion of a steal toggle. Yes Please!

Even Now there SHOULD be a toggle for no stealing, or a confirm window, or parameters like you must be crouched or something because it is WAY too easy to accidentally take something while just trying to talk to someone when Guild Stalls and NPC merchants have loose items littered all around them. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve accidentally taken some stupid potion bottle or something that was sitting right next to the Crafting Writ delivery crate I was trying to open because my wireless mouse lagged a bit or my view slowly drifted down past my intended target as I dismounted. Once I found the ‘No Accidental Stealing’ addon things got better (until recently when it’s stopped working and keeps giving ui errors) but it really Ought to be part of the base game. It is Extremely annoying to just be trying to take care of business and then be interrupted by a guard and have to pay a fine for something you had no intention of doing. Stealing should be a very intentional thing with no accidental incidents.

Dubhliam

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Dubhliam wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Kozer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

All of that is easily countered.

You have to be within X level range to bring someone down.

If you steal a fish you are not flagged for pvp by enforcers. There is a threshold that must be passed. IE Rack up a 1k bounty before other players can join in

Same faction is easy.

You get flagged as an enemy to law abiding people. Once you are flagged you can stealth without worry.

Face it after IC people who pvp have proven they simply cannot be trusted with the pvp portion of the justice system. Thats why they scrapped it and thats also why you wont see another pvp centered DLC. IC didnt sell very well and everyone who bought it pretty much hated it. Both on pvp side and pve side. Players cannot be trusted being "enforcers" all they will do is use every means necessary to grief everyone else in the game.

So ya justice system pvp is not coming. Its not worth spending limited development time on and it will just drive away people in the end.

Apples and Oranges.

IC: you are eiligible to be ganked as soon as you stepped into Imperial City.
PvP Justice: you would have to be careless enough to accumulate a large enough bounty (lvl 3) to be flagged "kill on sight".

I still think ZOS should grow a pair and bring us phase 2 of the Justice system.

lol grow a pair? This isnt some school yard childrens argument. Its a business people pay their bills and feed their family with. Grow a pair lol.

Taking risks is a part of any business.

No revolutionary system or software was ever done without the developer sweating their hands off in anticipation.

The only issue here is: it isn't all that revolutionary either, many MMOs have done it successfully.

Dubhliam

Aelthwyn wrote: »

I am SO relieved they abandoned that idea! I was NOT looking forward to PVP battles raging in cities, or people camped out just waiting to jump on criminals at key places - like thieves refuge entrances and quest steps that require breaking in, and merchant stalls where it’s all too easy to take a helmet instead of talking to the trader, etc. As it is already with people spamming abilities in banks and fighting NPC guards in the streets, it gets irritating when you’re just trying to have a conversation with the banker or merchant and then hearing that ‘press x to activate ___’ alert noise when someone casts their ultimate and all the other chaos of noise and visual effects going on. I certainly don’t want even more of that when I’m not in enemy territory/in battle myself.

Which brings me to the already mentioned suggestion of a steal toggle. Yes Please!

Even Now there SHOULD be a toggle for no stealing, or a confirm window, or parameters like you must be crouched or something because it is WAY too easy to accidentally take something while just trying to talk to someone when Guild Stalls and NPC merchants have loose items littered all around them. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve accidentally taken some stupid potion bottle or something that was sitting right next to the Crafting Writ delivery crate I was trying to open because my wireless mouse lagged a bit or my view slowly drifted down past my intended target as I dismounted. Once I found the ‘No Accidental Stealing’ addon things got better (until recently when it’s stopped working and keeps giving ui errors) but it really Ought to be part of the base game. It is Extremely annoying to just be trying to take care of business and then be interrupted by a guard and have to pay a fine for something you had no intention of doing. Stealing should be a very intentional thing with no accidental incidents.

First of all, you presume ZOS would do a miserable job at implementing such a mechanic if all this raging PvP would be going on.

Second:
You can already tick in options not to auto loot containers with stolen goods.
There is an addon that prevents you from stealing displayed items.

And most importantly: WHERE WAS IT WRITTEN THAT AS SOON AS YOU HAVE 15 BOUNTY YOU COULD BE KILLED ON SIGHT BY GRIEVERS THAT ARE AT EVERY CORNER JUST WAITING FOR YOU TO MAKE A MISTAKE?

I made detailed suggestions to all problems related to PvP Justice, link in my sig.
I won't be repeating myself.

KanedaSyndrome

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

In other words, "We are not releasing the only interesting thing about the Justice System."

Indeed. They are sackless when it comes to emergent gameplay and innovation.

Emergent gameplay and innovation meaning ganking PvErs, wow, so much innovation, it's not like there's a million of those MMO's already....

PvE people benefit from the thrill as well. Besides, who's not to say that they could just make PvP a togglable feature? It's as easy as implementing a PvP tag They did so in WoW, worked fine.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

show previous quotes

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Kozer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Made a statement here on why I think PvP Justice wouldn't have worked out in the end

All of that is easily countered.

You have to be within X level range to bring someone down.

If you steal a fish you are not flagged for pvp by enforcers. There is a threshold that must be passed. IE Rack up a 1k bounty before other players can join in

Same faction is easy.

You get flagged as an enemy to law abiding people. Once you are flagged you can stealth without worry.

Face it after IC people who pvp have proven they simply cannot be trusted with the pvp portion of the justice system. Thats why they scrapped it and thats also why you wont see another pvp centered DLC. IC didnt sell very well and everyone who bought it pretty much hated it. Both on pvp side and pve side. Players cannot be trusted being "enforcers" all they will do is use every means necessary to grief everyone else in the game.

So ya justice system pvp is not coming. Its not worth spending limited development time on and it will just drive away people in the end.

Apples and Oranges.

IC: you are eiligible to be ganked as soon as you stepped into Imperial City.
PvP Justice: you would have to be careless enough to accumulate a large enough bounty (lvl 3) to be flagged "kill on sight".

I still think ZOS should grow a pair and bring us phase 2 of the Justice system.

lol grow a pair? This isnt some school yard childrens argument. Its a business people pay their bills and feed their family with. Grow a pair lol.

Taking risks is a part of any business.

No revolutionary system or software was ever done without the developer sweating their hands off in anticipation.

The only issue here is: it isn't all that revolutionary either, many MMOs have done it successfully.

Taking unnecessary risks is simply foolish. If many mmos have done it then go play any of those mmos instead.

dodgehopper_ESO

petraeus1 wrote: »

For all the people saying the idea was bad, flawed, problematic: why would ZOS have to do a global implementation? I would've loved it if e.g. Kvatch or whatever zone they're doing down the line, had some (lore-friendly) issue whereby it needed player guards to reinforce its NPC army. That way it would be limited, similar to IC. People would know: hey, Kvatch/The Gold Coast has amazing items to steal, but it has player guards. The rest of the world would stay as it is. I dunno, I think it could've worked that way. I just hope ZOS will be able to salvage the work that has been done on the system until now.

Interesting idea.

houjo2000b16_ESO

Uh oh, PvP has been ruined by not forcing people who don't want to PvP to PvP.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm sure new players will just love stealing something, getting caught then being one shot by max level gankers... only to rez at a way shrine and be one shot again... and again... and again. Until they finally give up and log out to let the bounty tick down- or more reasonably, to uninstall because any game that puts max levels against newbies in pvp off the bat is utterly moronic.

If participation was something you could toggle that'd be one thing- because that way, only those who want to be part of it would be part of it. Let's face it though, that's not what PvPers want- just look at the rest of this thread. It's only fine by them if everyone is forced to do it, because they aren't looking for pvp they're looking to gank and PK.

Protip- you might get more sympathy from those who don't PvP if most of you didn't treat the non-PvP community like trash all the time.

I've always enjoyed PvP more than PvE myself, but I'm one of those nutcases who wants to play on equal grounds against other PvPers- that's why I find the PvP community is always impossible to like.

Dahveed

And this is why NO. MMO. EVER. will come close to what World of Warcraft was able to accomplish in their prime.

Every developer is just too afraid to make things "messy" - they coddle players way too much.

By putting a wildcard element like world pvp (or something like it) in the game, it makes things unpredictable and fun. And yes, causes problems.

But devs are so anxious about causing any problems whatsoever that they won't try interesting things like this, because they are worried about ruffling a few feathers.

Dubhliam

Dahveed wrote: »

And this is why NO. MMO. EVER. will come close to what World of Warcraft was able to accomplish in their prime.

Every developer is just too afraid to make things "messy" - they coddle players way too much.

By putting a wildcard element like world pvp (or something like it) in the game, it makes things unpredictable and fun. And yes, causes problems.

But devs are so anxious about causing any problems whatsoever that they won't try interesting things like this, because they are worried about ruffling a few feathers.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Dahveed wrote: »

And this is why NO. MMO. EVER. will come close to what World of Warcraft was able to accomplish in their prime.

Every developer is just too afraid to make things "messy" - they coddle players way too much.

By putting a wildcard element like world pvp (or something like it) in the game, it makes things unpredictable and fun. And yes, causes problems.

But devs are so anxious about causing any problems whatsoever that they won't try interesting things like this, because they are worried about ruffling a few feathers.

So forcing people to do things in a game that they don't want to do is a good thing now? Ok, lets force all PvPers to only do PvE by removing PvP from cyrodiil. See what kind of a dumb thing you ask for?

houjo2000b16_ESO

Dahveed wrote: »

And this is why NO. MMO. EVER. will come close to what World of Warcraft was able to accomplish in their prime.

Every developer is just too afraid to make things "messy" - they coddle players way too much.

By putting a wildcard element like world pvp (or something like it) in the game, it makes things unpredictable and fun. And yes, causes problems.

But devs are so anxious about causing any problems whatsoever that they won't try interesting things like this, because they are worried about ruffling a few feathers.

Have you ever played WoW, because from your post it seems you haven't.

1- WoW world PvP zones are even less substantial than Cyrodil, and the current one (Ashran) is despised by pvpers and non-pvpers alike because it's terrible. It's in a tiny little box, where everyone who wants to ignore it can.

2- World PvP is completely, 100% optional- there's nothing messy there, you either do it or you do not do it. That's part of the benefit of separate servers to cater to different playstyles. With ESO, either people who don't want to be involved would be forced to, or as it is now, people who do want FFA pvp don't get it.

3- There's no FFA pvp in WoW, minus a little arena with no point and no interest.

Overall though, you also have the part about FFA pvp being unpredictable and fun wrong. It may be to you- but most players don't want pvp to be always looming on them, and even more don't want it when it pits max levels against low levels that can be easily one shot. For a majority, that isn't fun- and it's wouldn't be some small thing they can ignore anymore, so it would almost certainly cause a bleed in playerbase.

That isn't to say it couldn't work, but it would have to be opt in without taking away the thieving activity from those who enjoy that but dislike being ganked (which is what this would be, it isn't a pvp system let's be honest here).

Having different shard rules might work in the absence of different servers- FFA shards, PvE shards, RP shards, etc... like most games have. Pick your shard and get sent to that phase.

However, whether Zen can/would do something like that is pretty unlikely, or they'd have done so already.

jbcrocks

Another reason not to play the game