MisterBigglesworth wrote: »The game could use some more AOE knockbacks so you could more easily pick out the enemy zerg's healer and single-target focus them down.
@Kutsuu Like the one I posted earlier?Remember those super cool big zerg battle videos that you guys used to advertise the game?Agreed 100%.If ball-groups were at risk of being blown up by well-placed AOE, they would learn to spread out. Suddenly keep battles actually look pretty cool again with everyone spread out, and you could make more marketing videos!
Two points I don't THINK have been addressed (Not sure, there's a lot to read).
1. Spamming AoE is often the only way to actually attack anything when your FPS is 10 and your ping is 999+. At least you're hitting SOMETHING. Sort this and more people will more effectively target people with single target attacks.
2. Often people stack on crown to be within range of the healer. If you increased healer range, that's one less reason to stack.
How do you plan to ever kill an organized group only using single target spells, without completely reworking the way healing works?
usmcjdking wrote: »Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun.
2.1 damage is down from 1.6, so don't get your point. Those groups using those AOE's already do that to unorganized defense. The unorganized defense is spread out enough that the AOE cap does not involve them at all. All the AOE cap does is make it impossible for them to damage the train coming at them.
Yes, they added a 50% dmg reduction, but they also added new, very powerful, gear. As a result you still have about the same or higher damage as in 1.6.
No wonder people dislike to be instant killed in a mmo... this is no fps.
Any spell combination that ends up this way should see its damage reduced.
I agree that the possiblity to do so needs to be avoidable - hence why i don´t like stealth builds doing it but am fine with stamDK (wb => leap or bow heavy => leap) or sorc burst - they are designed to fight that way.
I agree that the possiblity to do so needs to be avoidable - hence why i don´t like stealth builds doing it but am fine with stamDK (wb => leap or bow heavy => leap) or sorc burst - they are designed to fight that way.
As far as ultimates are concerned, I don't mind: they cannot really be spammed.
but the camo hunter multi proc on bow is the kind of gameplay killing pvp interest.
In my opinion the best solution to all these problems is to get rid of the AoE cap and implement a internal cooldown on AoE abilities.
So if one casts stell tornado twice within lets say 3 seconds he only deals 50% dmg, if he does again, only 25% (which should be the minimum). This would force people to actually think about, what they are doing and how to time their abilities.
The second change i would love to see is one to Magicka Detonation: simply set its base damage to 33% of current and make the maximum bonus damage 300%.
So the new maximum damage would be 120% of the current base dmg so almost the same maximum dmg it currently has.
You would deal almost no damage to single targets but would get the wanted burst against groups.
And a last change i would appreciate, is if the smart healing system would prefer targets in my group over randoms that just happen to be near me!
Make these changes happen and i will be forever grateful!
This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.
hammayolettuce wrote: »I'll just leave this here and let it sink in a bit ... @Wrobbel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
This was one of the reasons behind my suggestion of increasing damage for more targets hit by an AoE. If you're an organised group of 24, you would do more damage against a spamball group of 60.Aoe cap removal would not spread multi warbands... it would only make things worse, encouraging organized groups to stack massive aoe damage to instant kill any opposition.
[...]
Suppressing aoe cap would only encourage these 24 players spamballs to pack more people in order to outdamage other 24 players aoe spamballs. We already face multi warbands full detonation + steel tornadoe spam: they are instantly creating massive lag in the process.
3.5k is more than we even have posting on these forums nowadays. Getting 4000 people to vote on something today would never happen. Those were the people we had back then where the majority has left since.Sorry, but posts like these don't add anything useful to this discussion.. if there's 2 million people playing the game, that 3.5k is a laughable amount.
That said.. I don't want AoE caps.. but I do want falloff on AoE damage.
I would reliably crit for 17-20k fragments in 1.6 on my sorc.
Now with a build with kena - no sustain at all (900 mag reg) and no cost reduction i can crit for ~15k. A build with comparable sustain to my 1.6 build hit´s for about 11 to 12k on soft targets.
This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.
What's the problem of having an advantage if you outnumber your enemy? thats just how things naturlly should be.
If 30 people run into 10 and both groups are equally skilled and no one has the advantage of surprise on their side, the 30 people should win!
But if the 10 just outsmart those 30 and get to suprise them, they sould and will have a fair chance to get them.
So i can't see a problem there
hammayolettuce wrote: »I'll just leave this here and let it sink in a bit ... @Wrobbel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
Sorry, but posts like these don't add anything useful to this discussion.. if there's 2 million people playing the game, that 3.5k is a laughable amount.
That said.. I don't want AoE caps.. but I do want falloff on AoE damage.
I would reliably crit for 17-20k fragments in 1.6 on my sorc.
Now with a build with kena - no sustain at all (900 mag reg) and no cost reduction i can crit for ~15k. A build with comparable sustain to my 1.6 build hit´s for about 11 to 12k on soft targets.
Since many people run with around 21k HP.. that means you needed 2 frags in 1.6.. but funny thing is.. if you do 11-12 or 15k now.. that means it still takes just 2 frags
That poll (if we believe ppl voting are random enough to not be entirely biased - which is the only thing you could argue about) is representative for a population of just about 2.5 million players with an error margin of ~2% and a certainty of 99%.
This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.
What's the problem of having an advantage if you outnumber your enemy? thats just how things naturlly should be.
If 30 people run into 10 and both groups are equally skilled and no one has the advantage of surprise on their side, the 30 people should win!
But if the 10 just outsmart those 30 and get to suprise them, they sould and will have a fair chance to get them.
So i can't see a problem there
With your approach that would not be the case as you still need multiple casts per person with aoe to kill the 30 ppl. Even if you outsmart them a dmg dropoff of 50% after the first cast would be even worse than the caps we have now.
This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.
What's the problem of having an advantage if you outnumber your enemy? thats just how things naturlly should be.
If 30 people run into 10 and both groups are equally skilled and no one has the advantage of surprise on their side, the 30 people should win!
But if the 10 just outsmart those 30 and get to suprise them, they sould and will have a fair chance to get them.
So i can't see a problem there
With your approach that would not be the case as you still need multiple casts per person with aoe to kill the 30 ppl. Even if you outsmart them a dmg dropoff of 50% after the first cast would be even worse than the caps we have now.
Why? There are plenty of skills one could use, but doesn't as he does not have to. This way people would have to rethink their strategy and actually use something else then steal tornado all the time. I mean it definitly can't be the intention of the game, that people should simply use one skill all the time. Atm there is no reason at all for stamina players to use any other dmg skill when in a group!
And actually when you think about it: the total dmg dealt to a group of at least 12 Players would still be almost the same as with AoE caps, so it does not make things worse!
It just brings most people out of their comfort zone of not having to think at all and just smash one button all the time over and over again.
When you consider that When you engage with 8 vs 24 you would need atleast 1 aoe of every person in the 8 man grp to break the first barrier of the 24 man grp - the next aoe afterwards dmging the HP would already have a 50% dmg penalty.
It would make breaking larger grps with a smaller one in an ambush even harder than it is now. You often times need 3 to 5 aoe casts anyway.
What would happen is:
Large grp build use 3 different aoes instead of 1:
Steeltornado => Drain Power => Bombard without dropoff in dmg.
The people running builds with only one aoe in them would be screwed bc all your change did way enforce builds with vaible aoe dmg to have atleast three different aoes slotted (apart from the problem that certain classes can´t even do that).
When you consider that When you engage with 8 vs 24 you would need atleast 1 aoe of every person in the 8 man grp to break the first barrier of the 24 man grp - the next aoe afterwards dmging the HP would already have a 50% dmg penalty.
It would make breaking larger grps with a smaller one in an ambush even harder than it is now. You often times need 3 to 5 aoe casts anyway.
What would happen is:
Large grp build use 3 different aoes instead of 1:
Steeltornado => Drain Power => Bombard without dropoff in dmg.
The people running builds with only one aoe in them would be screwed bc all your change did way enforce builds with vaible aoe dmg to have atleast three different aoes slotted (apart from the problem that certain classes can´t even do that).
Ok i get your point, maybe a 50% dmg drop is a bit to much, but the general idea still seems to be a good one for me. It certainly should not affect every AoE in the game and should propably be part of the Cyrodiil debuff one gets.
Punctoring Strikes and all its morphs for examply should not be affected by this change. Or to be more general only AoE from Weapon skill lines should be, but not all of them.
I'm curious how difficult it would be to remove the AoE caps on the coding side.
Why not make a 7-day campaign to test PvP changes like this?
hammayolettuce wrote: »I'll just leave this here and let it sink in a bit ... @Wrobbel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
Sorry, but posts like these don't add anything useful to this discussion.. if there's 2 million people playing the game, that 3.5k is a laughable amount.
That said.. I don't want AoE caps.. but I do want falloff on AoE damage.
You don´t understand anything about polls and when they become representative do you?
That poll (if we believe ppl voting are random enough to not be entirely biased - which is the only thing you could argue about) is representative for a population of just about 2.5 million players with an error margin of ~2% and a certainty of 99%.
You could add that many of that 2.5 million you came up with are/were most likely not pvping anyway and in no way affected by caps therefor mostlikely did not bother to vote.
Out of questionable polls you find plenty of - this is not one you can really argue about.I would reliably crit for 17-20k fragments in 1.6 on my sorc.
Now with a build with kena - no sustain at all (900 mag reg) and no cost reduction i can crit for ~15k. A build with comparable sustain to my 1.6 build hit´s for about 11 to 12k on soft targets.
Since many people run with around 21k HP.. that means you needed 2 frags in 1.6.. but funny thing is.. if you do 11-12 or 15k now.. that means it still takes just 2 frags
On anyone with an armor buff not wearing entirely paper towels frags are between 6 and 9k nowadays. The high hits are extreme examples that occur nowhere as regularly as they did in 1.6.