AoE Caps Discussion

MrGrimey

Manoekin wrote: »

Derra puttin in work. Removing AOE caps isn't going to fix all of our problems, but it's definitely a great first step towards fun and balanced gameplay.

Exactly^

Remove aoe caps, adjust Zerg AP gain, adjust siege damage, add more objectives to encourage players to spread out, fix lag...

There are a laundry list of improvements that need to take place to improve cyrodiil. Removing AOE caps is a very important step, but not the only step

There is really no scenario other than completely removing AOE caps, that wouldn't encourage people to stack up and give them an artificial advantage besides having more numbers. If the cap was changed from 6 to 12 or even 16, it would still encourage stacking

Joy_Division

AFrostWolf wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

AFrostWolf wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

AFrostWolf wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

AFrostWolf wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do you want and artificial cap on dmg for people who already outnumber their opponent?

Why do you want dmg calculations to become even more complicated - sticking to specific targets no longer working with proximity. How should your dmg stacking work? Like smarthealing where the lowest targets get prioritized by dmg? That would be even worse than removing caps - not for organised grps but for the random players. Once your HP drop that would be a deathsentence - instantly.

Could you explain to me what about your proposal makes more sense than just flat out removing caps?

I don't want an artificial cap. What I want is for this not to be a knee jerk reaction. There are many things that need to be changed besides just the AoE cap. Right now the best thing to do is to adjust the cap while all the other things are changed as well. Test it out and slowly adjust as needed. What happens if we remove the AoE cap from the start fully, and then it turns out that X Y and Z change later makes it even worse? Alternatively, What if X Y Z change ends up fixing the problem after a bit of tweaking? The issue is far more complex than just remove AoE caps 100%. There are so many little things that will be tweaked it's best to take the time and do it slowly and correctly.

Proximity is a problem skill that Wrobel mentioned needed tweaking. I'm no expert in calculations here, I don't know how they can make the damage stack, but it's something that i thought needs to happen in response to something fengrush said back on the first page.

"If youre hitting 16 people, and 6 for full at a time, youre picking 6 different targets each time. If youre hitting 24, or 30 players, the statistical chance you hit the target that you wanted to hit, who you previously put the most damage on, keeps getting worse and worse. Ultimately, its extremely unlikely to hit the target you want and burst that guy down. Instead, you have to throw out overwhelming amounts of damage and actually out damage their healing by a large margin in a short span of time (something not possible when significantly outnumbered. This becomes impossible when you factor in templar ult for reduction but more importantly: barrier."

So you don´t want equal chances - because that´s what no caps would do.

It has nothing to with knee jerk reactions. People want a level playing field. I still don´t understand what you don´t want about that apart from large grps having an arbitrairy advantage apart from being more ppl in the first place.

You give no good reason for caps to exist. Please explain to me the reason why there should be a cap in the first place.

It is a knee jerk reaction. A damn popular one. You want an even playing field. We all do, But Aoe caps and just AoE caps alone IS NOT the only factor. That is why it needs to be adjusted multiple times till we hit the right balance between the AoE cap and all the other things that need changing.

Explain please why you feel an aoe cap should exist and why removing it would be a kneejerk reaction in terms of creating a level playing field in cyrodiil.

I already have. You are refusing to comprehend it.

No you did not. You refuse to give an answer to my question why an aoe cap should exist in the first place and why a removal would be counterproductive in creating a level playing field for grps of all sizes.

Do you not agree on the point that having dmg reduction on hitting more than 6 targets with an aoe spell is something counteracting equality?

You are assuming that I want an Aoe Cap to exist. You are ignoring the problem that lies with HOW we remove it.

We used to NOT have AoE cap. Now we do.
We have an AoE cap. Now it's gone.

In both cases are the addition and removal of the AoE caps an extreme. We go from 1 to the other without taking into account all the other things that need to be taken care of. Here is a small list of some things that also need to be taken into account.

Wrong. What you are forgetting is they already tried the sort of incremental adjustment you are asking for. 1.6 ring a bell, you already know, the whole after 6 targets is a damage scaling progression downwards? It didn't work. WE still hate AoE caps. You had you chance. It was tried. Now step aside gracefully and let's get rid of these stupid AoE caps compelely which 87% of the community never wanted in any form.

Jhunn

I think it's safe to say this is do or die soon. The game is in the most horrible state PVP wise it's ever been in. Azura is unplayable not only during prime time but from something like 15:00 PM - 01:00 AM. I've not been under 2-300 ping in +2 hours even though I've been half a map away from the zerg v zerg v zerg fights. The game is dying in its current state.

It's not even a question of 'should we remove AOE caps', it's 'remove AOE caps or the rest of this crumbling PVP playerbase will leave'.

prootch

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Why is this such a difficult subject for some? Why can't we just try it without AoE caps and see what happens instead of these nearly 2 years if theorycrafting? Cyrodiil can hardly get any worse besides a return to the permanent 3fps of yore.

There were no cap in the beginning on pulsar and batswarm if I remember well, and we had huge (2 warbands guild) stacks in 10 square meter, zone healing, purging and pulsing/batswarming to death anyone approaching. There are still some vids of this I think.

So we do know it wont do anything good for depack, we will just get enormous aoe stackers with more lag, aiming to outdamage everyone. I remember pretty well 3 warbands running in circle and dropping distance aoe and siege weapons on it with little effect on that kind of spamball... and incredible lag.

Then the caps were introduced... that's why they exist by the way.

Bashev

prootch wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Why is this such a difficult subject for some? Why can't we just try it without AoE caps and see what happens instead of these nearly 2 years if theorycrafting? Cyrodiil can hardly get any worse besides a return to the permanent 3fps of yore.

There were no cap in the beginning on pulsar and batswarm if I remember well, and we had huge (2 warbands guild) stacks in 10 square meter, zone healing, purging and pulsing/batswarming to death anyone approaching. There are still some vids of this I think.

So we do know it wont do anything good for depack, we will just get enormous aoe stackers with more lag, aiming to outdamage everyone. I remember pretty well 3 warbands running in circle and dropping distance aoe and siege weapons on it with little effect on that kind of spamball... and incredible lag.

Then the caps were introduced... that's why they exist by the way.

The more important part is if there is no AoE cap the calculations will be reduced. I dont remember the servers lagging so much back at launch as they are lagging now (try Azura Star EU).

prootch

Bashev wrote: »

The more important part is if there is no AoE cap the calculations will be reduced. I dont remember the servers lagging so much back at launch as they are lagging now (try Azura Star EU).

Now in the meanwhile a lot of calculation have been transfered to servers to kill bots and pvp servers are not maintained so often they used to, steel tornadoes did not exist as execute and therefore were not used systematically... ect ect... they are lots of potential causes for lag, among which aoe cap has never been recognized as a major lag factor by zos... and they do have game stats, so if it would be so easy to suppress lag, they would already have done it i'm sure.

And you don't remember, but ... it did lag like hell while approaching that kind of organized aoe spam groups for which winning is more essential than the quality of the gameplay for all other players... and that gameplay is just purely vomitive.

Now bomb-tornadoe-aoe groups will defend that smelly gameplay like hell, so they can brag killing pugs by dozen, and most off them never tried anything else. It's clearly more difficult to coordinate a mono target group than an aoe spam group.

PainfulFAFA

Jhunn wrote: »

I think it's safe to say this is do or die soon. The game is in the most horrible state PVP wise it's ever been in. Azura is unplayable not only during prime time but from something like 15:00 PM - 01:00 AM. I've not been under 2-300 ping in +2 hours even though I've been half a map away from the zerg v zerg v zerg fights. The game is dying in its current state.

It's not even a question of 'should we remove AOE caps', it's 'remove AOE caps or the rest of this crumbling PVP playerbase will leave'.

Agreed.
1.6 was the worst thing that could've happen to this game (causing many to leave) and everything after that has been a steady decline.
- Aoe Caps
- Dynamic Ulti Removed
Those two things is what has driven ESO to what it is today. A zergy laggy mess.

We haven't even gotten to Class Imbalances
PvP is truly unbalanced
90% of the playerbase in PvP are Magicka Sorcs or Stamina Nightblades - the easiest and cheesiest to roll for PvP.

jeremiah911

It looks like from reading all the responses in this thread the majority of players agree that anything less than removing the AOE cap will result in the death blow for PvP. Another question I have for @Wrobel would be why not get rid of AOE caps, gather live data and then systematically identify the outlying issues?

Seems to me a lot of players are passionate about PvP and improving the experience. I'm sure the players in this thread would be eager to share any experiences / data if ZOS wanted to start live testing.

prootch

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

... is what has driven ESO to what it is today. A zergy laggy mess.

Who mainly leads eso pvp where it is today ? Organized aoe lag spam groups that mistake aoe stacking for skills, trying to pretend that pugs are causing lag while they do cause massive lag each time they launch their steel tornagoe-deto-aoe stack spam routine. They could revert to mono target spells easily, and still win fights, but they are far too much interested in "winning" to try reduce they aoe spam lag.

Then again, the lag is the responsability of zos... but it does not qualify their request for aoe decap as valid. And it has been uncapped in the past on spells like pulsar and batswarm... with no positive effect.

Sublime

prootch wrote: »

Then again, the lag is the responsability of zos... but it does not qualify their request for aoe decap as valid. And it has been uncapped in the past on spells like pulsar and batswarm... with no positive effect.

Actually, all the way back in the day where there were no AOE caps, there were hardy any bombsquads. And the ones that already played this style could get beaten by 2-3 good players. While this certainly has a lot to do with dynamic ultimate generation, it has to be said that the removal AOE caps is not bound to result in invulnerable trains.

Xsorus

prootch wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Why is this such a difficult subject for some? Why can't we just try it without AoE caps and see what happens instead of these nearly 2 years if theorycrafting? Cyrodiil can hardly get any worse besides a return to the permanent 3fps of yore.

There were no cap in the beginning on pulsar and batswarm if I remember well, and we had huge (2 warbands guild) stacks in 10 square meter, zone healing, purging and pulsing/batswarming to death anyone approaching. There are still some vids of this I think.

So we do know it wont do anything good for depack, we will just get enormous aoe stackers with more lag, aiming to outdamage everyone. I remember pretty well 3 warbands running in circle and dropping distance aoe and siege weapons on it with little effect on that kind of spamball... and incredible lag.

Then the caps were introduced... that's why they exist by the way.

Pulsar and Batswarm both had caps

There were a few abilities that did not have caps at the beginning of the game; Talons and Standard for example..and you most certainly could not stand in Talons or Standard back then and live... In fact just having 2 DKs drop that on a stack of players and pop the synergies would kill loads of people.

prootch

Xsorus wrote: »

Pulsar and Batswarm both had caps
There were a few abilities that did not have caps at the beginning of the game; Talons and Standard for example..and you most certainly could not stand in Talons or Standard back then and live... In fact just having 2 DKs drop that on a stack of players and pop the synergies would kill loads of people.

Yeah I could have spoken of Talons
And batswarm was utterly bugged for a long time

All of this missing the point: massively decrease aoe damage and go for a far better gameplay instead of asking for aoe damage decap that will cause more problems than if solves.

skillastat

Xsorus wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Why is this such a difficult subject for some? Why can't we just try it without AoE caps and see what happens instead of these nearly 2 years if theorycrafting? Cyrodiil can hardly get any worse besides a return to the permanent 3fps of yore.

There were no cap in the beginning on pulsar and batswarm if I remember well, and we had huge (2 warbands guild) stacks in 10 square meter, zone healing, purging and pulsing/batswarming to death anyone approaching. There are still some vids of this I think.

So we do know it wont do anything good for depack, we will just get enormous aoe stackers with more lag, aiming to outdamage everyone. I remember pretty well 3 warbands running in circle and dropping distance aoe and siege weapons on it with little effect on that kind of spamball... and incredible lag.

Then the caps were introduced... that's why they exist by the way.

Pulsar and Batswarm both had caps

There were a few abilities that did not have caps at the beginning of the game; Talons and Standard for example..and you most certainly could not stand in Talons or Standard back then and live... In fact just having 2 DKs drop that on a stack of players and pop the synergies would kill loads of people.

How about you don't stand in red circle ? Didn't you learn that in PvE ?

PainfulFAFA

prootch wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Pulsar and Batswarm both had caps
There were a few abilities that did not have caps at the beginning of the game; Talons and Standard for example..and you most certainly could not stand in Talons or Standard back then and live... In fact just having 2 DKs drop that on a stack of players and pop the synergies would kill loads of people.

Yeah I could have spoken of Talons
And batswarm was utterly bugged for a long time

All of this missing the point: massively decrease aoe damage and go for a far better gameplay instead of asking for aoe damage decap that will cause more problems than if solves.

lol. just lol

Running in ball groups already gives zerglings artificial mitigation (because of AoE Caps) on top of all the healing and YOU WANT AOE DMG NERFED? just lol no comment wont waste time arguing you.

Please take some time to read post # 28 and while you're at it, take a listen to what the people from the We Are ESO podcasts argue about the state of PvP. I challenge you to come up with an eleborate counter arguement to what those players have raised about the state of PvP, instead of just stating something for the heck of it without doing some research first.

prootch

lol just lol. You guys are so obsessed bragging with pugs mass killing you don't even see how aoe lagtrain are killing pvp. And read the above posts for arguments...

Xsorus

skillastatb16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Why is this such a difficult subject for some? Why can't we just try it without AoE caps and see what happens instead of these nearly 2 years if theorycrafting? Cyrodiil can hardly get any worse besides a return to the permanent 3fps of yore.

There were no cap in the beginning on pulsar and batswarm if I remember well, and we had huge (2 warbands guild) stacks in 10 square meter, zone healing, purging and pulsing/batswarming to death anyone approaching. There are still some vids of this I think.

So we do know it wont do anything good for depack, we will just get enormous aoe stackers with more lag, aiming to outdamage everyone. I remember pretty well 3 warbands running in circle and dropping distance aoe and siege weapons on it with little effect on that kind of spamball... and incredible lag.

Then the caps were introduced... that's why they exist by the way.

Pulsar and Batswarm both had caps

There were a few abilities that did not have caps at the beginning of the game; Talons and Standard for example..and you most certainly could not stand in Talons or Standard back then and live... In fact just having 2 DKs drop that on a stack of players and pop the synergies would kill loads of people.

How about you don't stand in red circle ? Didn't you learn that in PvE ?

huh? [snip] you going on about?

[edited for profanity bypass]

Xsorus

prootch wrote: »

lol just lol. You guys are so obsessed bragging with pugs mass killing you don't even see how aoe lagtrain are killing pvp. And read the above posts for arguments...

Yea; and that'd be fixed by removing AOE caps...

You can do a few other changes like un-nerfing siege as well..But removing AOE caps will be one of the biggest things you can do to kill AOE lag trains..Because once they start taking a crap ton of damage while not getting free passive mitigation they'll have a lot of trouble.

MrGrimey

The only way having AOE caps can work is if you remove smart healing, but that just causes way too many problems and is counter intuitive .

So remove the caps

prootch

This is a gw2 "aoe rules" kind of point of view, with all respect.

As far as i'm concern, total removal of aoe would be the perfect move. But decreasing aoe spell power and cast frequency is also a good solution to make aoe spamballs irrelevant. The point is not just to kill lag, it's also to kill brainless aoe spamming. Gameplay quality would most certainly level up when people would get obliged to assist in melee.

Derra

prootch wrote: »

This is a gw2 "aoe rules" kind of point of view, with all respect.

As far as i'm concern, total removal of aoe would be the perfect move. But decreasing aoe spell power and cast frequency is also a good solution to make aoe spamballs irrelevant. The point is not just to kill lag, it's also to kill brainless aoe spamming. Gameplay quality would most certainly level up when people would get obliged to assist in melee.

While in theory this might work - it does not with eso targetting and smart healing system. If you remove aoe completely you HAVE to give a target hardlock.

Also people would still ball up because it would be impossibly hard to assist targets with multiple people as: no name tags. No friendly player collusion. Just run behind your train if hit => profit.

Removing aoe would require much much much more work than removing caps (rebalancing complete pve content, countless skills - it´s just not realistic at all).
Apart from that you´d still need aoe as an incentive/threat for people to spread out.

Erondil

@prootch I think you misunderstand the consequencies of the removal of AOE caps in the current patch.
Removal of AoE caps wont advantage ballgroup to kill pugs or group like your because, since they're quite spread an AoE would barely hit more than 6 people (except maybe steel tornado but this skill needs to be nerfed). On the other hand it will make it way easier to kill 24 ppl stacked together, and punish them to do so (currently 24 people stacked benefit of 37.5% damage reduction, thats more than the reduction given by the most expensive ultimates (nova banner veil of blade) or any other source of damage reduction. What will happen if zos finally remove AoE caps? Those ballgroup will die in a few seconds if they keep sticking all together, and will start to spread out and play more with single target abilities (the gameplay you want to see).
The only reason AoE caps were arguable pre 1.6 is because dynamic ult gain, with ultimate dmg itself giving ultimate now with the new system there is no point to keep aoe caps.
AoE imo should deal ~30-50% less dmg than single target abilities (as they do currently). This doesnt mean they become better than single target once you face more than 2 players, because of how heals work: 90% of heals are aoe or heal several targets: if you hit 3 ppl with an aoe, you deal 150% more dmg than if you hit one player, but bol for ex, heals for 200% more (and healing spring for 300% more) so even with aoe dealing half the dmg of single target, single target is still better until you face 5-6 ppl stacked. This+ single target is more burst than aoe which is needed in many situations.
AoE are supposed to discourage stacking, but with the current cap and the strong AoE heals, groups have more incentives than disadvantages to stack up.

Nafirian

prootch wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The more important part is if there is no AoE cap the calculations will be reduced. I dont remember the servers lagging so much back at launch as they are lagging now (try Azura Star EU).

Now in the meanwhile a lot of calculation have been transfered to servers to kill bots and pvp servers are not maintained so often they used to, steel tornadoes did not exist as execute and therefore were not used systematically... ect ect... they are lots of potential causes for lag, among which aoe cap has never been recognized as a major lag factor by zos... and they do have game stats, so if it would be so easy to suppress lag, they would already have done it i'm sure.

And you don't remember, but ... it did lag like hell while approaching that kind of organized aoe spam groups for which winning is more essential than the quality of the gameplay for all other players... and that gameplay is just purely vomitive.

Now bomb-tornadoe-aoe groups will defend that smelly gameplay like hell, so they can brag killing pugs by dozen, and most off them never tried anything else. It's clearly more difficult to coordinate a mono target group than an aoe spam group.

Says the biggest zerger on EU.

Derra

prootch wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Pulsar and Batswarm both had caps
There were a few abilities that did not have caps at the beginning of the game; Talons and Standard for example..and you most certainly could not stand in Talons or Standard back then and live... In fact just having 2 DKs drop that on a stack of players and pop the synergies would kill loads of people.

Yeah I could have spoken of Talons
And batswarm was utterly bugged for a long time

All of this missing the point: massively decrease aoe damage and go for a far better gameplay instead of asking for aoe damage decap that will cause more problems than if solves.

I think at this point it´s futile to argue on your point because you simply don´t understand what people are talking about (or what implications aoe caps have on gameplay - nor what your proposed changes would mean).

I get you have good intentions (or maybe you don´t and just don´t want to loose status quo as your proposed changes will never ever be consideres as they´re not rational from any pov with esos combat mechanics) - but sometimes good intentions are not enough.

Enodoc

prootch wrote: »

This is a gw2 "aoe rules" kind of point of view, with all respect.

As far as i'm concern, total removal of aoe would be the perfect move. But decreasing aoe spell power and cast frequency is also a good solution to make aoe spamballs irrelevant. The point is not just to kill lag, it's also to kill brainless aoe spamming. Gameplay quality would most certainly level up when people would get obliged to assist in melee.

For as long as the cap remains, decreasing damage and frequency won't have that much impact. As soon as you're in a blob with more than 6 players, the rest of the blob takes drastically reduced damage from AoE. Decreasing AoE damage without removing the cap just means that the players in the blob will take even less damage, and will blob even more to counter the reduced damage they are dealing.

This is the baseline for my suggestion of increasing damage based on targets hit - the larger the blob, the more damage is done to players in it, encouraging them to split up. Reduced damage for a lesser number of people may initially cause them to blob more to try to counter the reduction, like the situation above, but unlike that situation where blobbing continues to benefit them due to the cap, it will be detrimental as it will result in more damage being done to them. The larger number of players will still have the combat advantage, after de-blobbing, but it will be based on player skill and single-target abilities rather than AoE spamming.

Kas

Slightly offtopic:
I would still prefer abilities with HUGE impact that can be interrupted over the current meta.
Skill spamming is crazy effective for both, group/zerg pvp and even 1v1's. Sure, better players will mix in LA's - and depending ont he build - cancle skills with bashes. But the overall concept is stil: get as little damage spells as necessary and as many buffs and utility as possible and then fight the right moment to spam your damage spell. The same goes for defense in zergs: imho it still makes sense to split it and have a dk with ignenous spam all the springs, DD's with bastion provide barriers and templars spam BoL. The main reason this is not happening too much, imho, is denial: the good players don't want to accept that only spamming one skill could be even more effective than playing "good". Instead think of abilities like the most effective heals, wrecking blow, steel tornado or hardend ward in even stronger versions, but all of them interruptable.


Now, to go back to the AoE cap, I think it is a dangerous thing. You can basically control the duration of fights with it. However, the biggest ball (in terms of #players * equip * doing the right things) will still win. Both, prox det and especially steel tornado have an incredible range. Single target abilities are not option to go up against them and will never be. So you might fix the lag, but probably not the fight/fun. Instead of lag, the fight will be over - with probably the same outvcome, just a little quicker. Not fun.

I loved DAoC, but i strongly disagree with those saying that strong (PB)AoE punished zergs. AoE mezzes and the fact that AoE damage was also an AoE interrupt did. Otherwise your zerg blob would have only needed a few bombers themselves. CC and interrupting by starting first did the trick.

In general, I think the most effective way is to punish grouping up - from range. Siege weapons did that for a short time, but at the same time, the took the fun out of the combat. Controlling a siege is terribly boring if you do it often. Further, spreading out doesn't help if a huge enemy force can put up many sieges. Your probably still best of to move as a blob, it's just harder to move properly and you maybe need to react to a missstep (clean + barrier).

imho, there is little reason to leave steel tornado and prox det AoE as big as it is. As logn as you can neither escape nor touch these balls, they will be super effective. imho inevitabel (and prox) det are a great start. Especially ievitable. However, I think both should deal less damage but scale more strongly with the number of players. If 30+ ball up and see the red circlle (maybe give it a special color), I don't think getting 1hit would be undeserved.

mchermie

The game should not punish players for being in a big group. Better players should.

AOE caps is like a shield for big groups, but removing it will still benefit them when fighting other big groups.
This game is designed around large battles and imo a group of 24 good players should not have, in general, a very hard time against a group of 10 equally good players. But if a group of 24 bad players fights a good group of 10, then the smaller group should be able to win the fight.
Quality over quantity

The removal of AOE caps will then encourage players who are hiding in the zerg-meta we see today to improve their skills and become better at the game

I would love to see this tested on the pts or on a new campaign(as Crown suggested)

prootch

I would love to see a test too ! preferably on azura (eu-pc)

@Erondil
I really doubt aoe decap would do what you intend it to do:

Large aoe lagballs will overstack aoe in a trial to outdamage other aoelagballs... remaining aoe spamballs, and in huge raids (or multiple raids like decimation). They would not spread all over the map also because they just don't have that many leads and coordination capacity... so we would just get all out aoe decaped deto+steel tornadoe lagspam train. Again and again.

The most vomitive gameplay ever.

When talons and standard were not capped and batswarm was bugged, you could see raids full of uncaped dks aoe, but they did not kill aoe lagtrains trend (remember pryda's lagspamball vids). Your offer "summarized" is to stack decaped aoe damage to kill bigger aoe lagstacks... I see a logic failure there. I doubt aoe decap would settle lag on it's own, or zos would already have applied it.

We all here miss the stats of server use to have any certitude in it. The sheer number of server calculation access not being enough : it highly depends on the weight of each type of access. Yet aoe creating mechanically more calculation access than monotarget anyway, making sure aoe gameplay is not op anymore would mechanically lower calculation access volume.

While with aoe decap, groups like yours will continue to open nightclubs with limited space and access, and go on aoe farming. Including farming aoe stack lagballs which outdamage you atm: everyone would still lag as hell (before one of the aoe groups gets a sort of "instant" death). So I understand perfectly that you ask for it, but I doubt there are any advantages in it for the vast majority of players, including lagwise. And do you need this edge to score ? I don't think so.

By the way as you mentioned our group: it already aims at spreading in assist cells to avoid aoe lagspamballs (provided the lag level still enables to cast of course), so it wouldn't theorically impact our gameplay. But I remember with nostalgy fighting your op group in small scale when tarnum was emp: it was a lot more fun than since some began to slot deto and tornadoe.

Also i'm quite sure instant mass chain killing of pugs with unlimited aoe will certainly not encourage a majority of casual players to remain in pvp. Your view is maybe a bit too much self centered and certainly missing marketing insight. Getting all the casuals to drop the game in the end because of mass aoe chain kills by a few op groups, really ? guess what... the mass of pugs/casual are actually financing this game.

Makes sure organized groups will be more efficient with monotarget spells, then they will mainly drop aoe massive use (less aoe and lag on the non vet campaign is showing the way to less aoe on vet ones).

You would both ensure decrease of lag (less calculation) and improved pvp interest (longer fights).

Nafirian wrote: »

Says the biggest zerger on EU.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Jhunn

@prootch

What you're forgetting when bringing up old banner/bats etc. meta is that we had dynamic ulti gen back then. We don't anymore.

prootch

True... so standard and batswarm ulti spamming is no longer op, it's just been replaced by deto+tornadoe spamming.
Not for the better wether you consider it from a gameplay point of view or from a lag point of view... obvioulsy.

usmcjdking

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Pulsar and Batswarm both had caps
There were a few abilities that did not have caps at the beginning of the game; Talons and Standard for example..and you most certainly could not stand in Talons or Standard back then and live... In fact just having 2 DKs drop that on a stack of players and pop the synergies would kill loads of people.

Yeah I could have spoken of Talons
And batswarm was utterly bugged for a long time

All of this missing the point: massively decrease aoe damage and go for a far better gameplay instead of asking for aoe damage decap that will cause more problems than if solves.

lol. just lol

Running in ball groups already gives zerglings artificial mitigation (because of AoE Caps) on top of all the healing and YOU WANT AOE DMG NERFED? just lol no comment wont waste time arguing you.

Please take some time to read post # 28 and while you're at it, take a listen to what the people from the We Are ESO podcasts argue about the state of PvP. I challenge you to come up with an eleborate counter arguement to what those players have raised about the state of PvP, instead of just stating something for the heck of it without doing some research first.

The We Are ESO Podcast, to put it kindly, is a huge waste of time. I think that it is good that they are getting together and putting together something else that lets ZOS know we are currently unpleased...but other than that it's wasting time. None of these guys have any business prosing major design changes to the game because their experience in MMO game design and retention is limited to their personal play time and experience with playing the game.

These are not the type of people you want designing a game that requires an active and growing userbase.

Anyways, a few good suggestions in here IRT AOE caps. I think the winner-winner-chicken-dinner suggestion was for the 5M AOE radius cap. Worth testing IMO.