Weapon damage broken again? Puncturing sweeps vs Biting Jabs

Nifty2g · November 2015

@Asayre @Alcast
Sorry guys was playing a game

I used Theif Mundus Stone with Nirnhoned Swords, Precise Restoration Staff. Asayre what type of Mob do you want me to hit to get the noncrit and crit values or do you want it to be a boss?

Asayre · November 2015

Maxus the Many would be great. But I think @Xantaria has figured it out. Just have to get more penetration to do more damage @Alcast and if possible don't use Serpent but probably that is not doable.

Zinaroth · November 2015

Asayre wrote: »

Maxus the Many would be great. But I think @Xantaria has figured it out. Just have to get more penetration to do more damage @Alcast and if possible don't use Serpent but probably that is not doable.

Do you think the physical penetration from CP would be more advantageous for "low" crit stamina builds based on this?

GilGalad · November 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

@Asayre @Alcast
Sorry guys was playing a game

I used Theif Mundus Stone with Nirnhoned Swords, Precise Restoration Staff. Asayre what type of Mob do you want me to hit to get the noncrit and crit values or do you want it to be a boss?

It's not only the spell penetration from the weapons but the penetration given by the light armor passive in addition. Against a player ignoring 5k spellres is equal to 7.7% (50%*5000/32500) more dmg.

orangeman57ub17_ESO · November 2015

@alcast,

I did some testing with a bow because my DPS seemed to be alot lower than usual. I came up with a few tests that might be somewhat of the cause you are having. The shadow (no divines) was only giving me a 7.99% damage increase (on crit hits) and Precise Strikes (100 cp for test) only boosted my crit damage by around 16% instead of the tooltips 25%. Im not sure how much less damage your Jabs are doing, but this is something that may need to be addressed soon.

Heres my fancy spreadsheet with my tests. Seems everything else i tested was working correctly.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1exGIXVXhcC5pAVIOyg6KISLwMB8jVGY3V-1zrksTNfg/edit?usp=sharing

Asayre · November 2015

@orangeman57ub17_ESO Thank you for the testing but your numbers are as expected. The Shadow is increasing your crit multiplier by 12%. Your base damage without Shadow is 8101 your crit damage is 12152 thus your crit modifier without Shadow is 0.5 (12152/8101 - 1). Your crit multiplier with Shadow is 1.62 (13124/8101 - 1). Precise Strikes is working as intended in that it increases your crit multiplier by the tooltip amount thus 100 points in Precise Strikes increased your crit multiplier without Shadow from 0.5 to 0.75.

Forcebuster · November 2015

@ZOS_GinaBruno Zos and @ZOS_RichLambert Can you look at these abilities please?

I think there is something wrong with burning light passive on stamina templars because my tool tip says 5.3k or something and it crits for 7.1 max yet a magicka templar has a tool tip of 4500 and their crits r hitting for 9.8-10k+. There is something clearly somthing is wrong with the way biting jabs is scaling with wep damage and stamina vs Puncturing sweeps scaling with spell power and and magicka.

There is no way jabs with 4-5k wep dmg and 38k stamina would be hitting less than 3k spell damage and 40k magika + there are 40% heals outta that feels like the penetration bug from 1.6

zornyan · November 2015

Burning light passive is magic damage, and although it may scale with weapon power, it gets buffed by thumatauge ,which is probably where the extra damage is coming from.

orangeman57ub17_ESO · November 2015

@Asayre Thanks for the explanation. Its ppl like you who make this game almost understandable lol.

Sad day for stam users, seems were getting worse and worse with each update. I almost had my double bow sorc pulling 15k-20k dps but now he seems lucky to hit 12...

blabafat · November 2015

My buffed up tooltip for jabs with entropy and illuminate passive
1387

With 3272 spell damage and 36,548 magicka

Sometimes, my jabs do more damage than usual. I think part of the reason may be the CP passive that increases your damage on off balance targets? I'm also running dual wield, which has a similar passive. The dual wield one says "when using dual wield attacks" however ESO tooltips sometimes refer to more than what they say.

Xantaria · November 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Maxus the Many would be great. But I think @Xantaria has figured it out. Just have to get more penetration to do more damage @Alcast and if possible don't use Serpent but probably that is not doable.

Do you think the physical penetration from CP would be more advantageous for "low" crit stamina builds based on this?

Probably yes. But I would go for as much crit and crit damage as possible with thief + shadow twice born star.

UltimaJoe777 · November 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Maxus the Many would be great. But I think @Xantaria has figured it out. Just have to get more penetration to do more damage @Alcast and if possible don't use Serpent but probably that is not doable.

Do you think the physical penetration from CP would be more advantageous for "low" crit stamina builds based on this?

Probably yes. But I would go for as much crit and crit damage as possible with thief + shadow twice born star.

Since this has been brought up just out of curiousity do any of the mobs if not just bosses use Damage Shields in MSA? I've seen an NPC or 2 in IC use them so just wondering.

Xantaria · November 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Burning light passive is magic damage, and although it may scale with weapon power, it gets buffed by thumatauge ,which is probably where the extra damage is coming from.

Exactly!

Xantaria · November 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Maxus the Many would be great. But I think @Xantaria has figured it out. Just have to get more penetration to do more damage @Alcast and if possible don't use Serpent but probably that is not doable.

Do you think the physical penetration from CP would be more advantageous for "low" crit stamina builds based on this?

Probably yes. But I would go for as much crit and crit damage as possible with thief + shadow twice born star.

Since this has been brought up just out of curiousity do any of the mobs if not just bosses use Damage Shields in MSA? I've seen an NPC or 2 in IC use them so just wondering.

There is a kind of mob that does use a 50-60k damage shield after a few seconds if you don't kill it before in the dwemer spider stage. That is all for what I am remembering. So yeah Crit in vMA is definitely effective.

Xantaria · November 2015

orangeman57ub17_ESO wrote: »

@Asayre Thanks for the explanation. Its ppl like you who make this game almost understandable lol.

Sad day for stam users, seems were getting worse and worse with each update. I almost had my double bow sorc pulling 15k-20k dps but now he seems lucky to hit 12...

@Asayre is a god. yes. I pray to him every night. may he bless me with more math.

Those 15-20k dps were probably before 1.7 and the 12 k dps after 1.7.

1.6 had us Stamina players blessed with a godly armor penetration bug which is now gone :'(

And just a hint: If you're looking to maximize DPS don't go for a double Bow build. It is just not viable for PvE at this point.

UltimaJoe777 · November 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Maxus the Many would be great. But I think @Xantaria has figured it out. Just have to get more penetration to do more damage @Alcast and if possible don't use Serpent but probably that is not doable.

Do you think the physical penetration from CP would be more advantageous for "low" crit stamina builds based on this?

Probably yes. But I would go for as much crit and crit damage as possible with thief + shadow twice born star.

Since this has been brought up just out of curiousity do any of the mobs if not just bosses use Damage Shields in MSA? I've seen an NPC or 2 in IC use them so just wondering.

There is a kind of mob that does use a 50-60k damage shield after a few seconds if you don't kill it before in the dwemer spider stage. That is all for what I am remembering. So yeah Crit in vMA is definitely effective.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of how a crit build may be proven ineffective if said mob or mobs get to raise their Damage Shield since from what I hear you cannot crit an enemy with a Shield up lol

Xantaria · November 2015

Yeah exactly. That's why I'm saying ... there is just that single one afaik and everything else is effected by your crit making it completely viable. And it is not an issue to kill said mob before it gets to use its shield.

EgoRush · November 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

orangeman57ub17_ESO wrote: »

@Asayre Thanks for the explanation. Its ppl like you who make this game almost understandable lol.

Sad day for stam users, seems were getting worse and worse with each update. I almost had my double bow sorc pulling 15k-20k dps but now he seems lucky to hit 12...

@Asayre is a god. yes. I pray to him every night. may he bless me with more math.

Those 15-20k dps were probably before 1.7 and the 12 k dps after 1.7.

1.6 had us Stamina players blessed with a godly armor penetration bug which is now gone :'(

And just a hint: If you're looking to maximize DPS don't go for a double Bow build. It is just not viable for PvE at this point.

DISAGREE! I have my secret bow build to test yet that I think is being severely underestimated!

Kas · November 2015

i recall a NB (albeit PvP) testing when 1.8 hit on both, players and mobs and he was 100% sure there was absolutely now way around sharpened maces.

apart from that, a magicka char using 2 nirn swords should have another 5% damage bonus not reflected in tooltip/sd/magicka, shouldn't he? iirc this was changed in 1.8 to the way 2h worked in 1.7

so using daggers, you should deal 5% less damage with same damage+resource values anyway, shouldn't you?

orangeman57ub17_ESO · November 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

DISAGREE! I have my secret bow build to test yet that I think is being severely underestimated!

We might have to talk strats on Vet Maelstrom. I Wanna be the first Bow Sorc to clear it :P

reclaimervii.sierra117ub17_ESO · November 2015

Noticed this have a magika and a stamina Templar, I will post pictures later in not using nirnhoned and I'm still hitting harder than my stamina Templar

Tankqull · November 2015

would guess its rather simple the lamia has hihger physical resists than magica resists... as we have no indication of dmg reduction via CLS and co [sth every other game provides like: " you hit lamia for 5100(-2479)" vs "you hit Lamia foe 5300(-900)"] you would have to compare tooltips and pray for their correctness :P

Alcast · November 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

would guess its rather simple the lamia has hihger physical resists than magica resists... as we have no indication of dmg reduction via CLS and co [sth every other game provides like: " you hit lamia for 5100(-2479)" vs "you hit Lamia foe 5300(-900)"] you would have to compare tooltips and pray for their correctness :P

on all bosses the dmg is the same. So if ZOS put just 20k more physical resistance on ALL the mobs that would make me even more angry than I already am.

AfkNinja · November 2015

This just sucks so hard. I really want to love my Stamplar but the more I play it and the more ZOS "fixes" things it just keeps getting worse and worse. To top it off we've had 0 feedback about templar adjustments and honestly it makes me just wanna not play Templar at all anymore.

Tankqull · November 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

would guess its rather simple the lamia has hihger physical resists than magica resists... as we have no indication of dmg reduction via CLS and co [sth every other game provides like: " you hit lamia for 5100(-2479)" vs "you hit Lamia foe 5300(-900)"] you would have to compare tooltips and pray for their correctness :P

on all bosses the dmg is the same. So if ZOS put just 20k more physical resistance on ALL the mobs that would make me even more angry than I already am.

thats not neccessarily required, as i doubt you are using dual wield mauls/2h maul to get the 20% armor pen light armor provides + blabas nirn weapon he is having quite some armor reduction. so if they just generally increased the mob resitences in general to be come of a value the "common" tooltip-dmg maximisation might not lead to the former max effective dmg output.

Alcast · November 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

would guess its rather simple the lamia has hihger physical resists than magica resists... as we have no indication of dmg reduction via CLS and co [sth every other game provides like: " you hit lamia for 5100(-2479)" vs "you hit Lamia foe 5300(-900)"] you would have to compare tooltips and pray for their correctness :P

on all bosses the dmg is the same. So if ZOS put just 20k more physical resistance on ALL the mobs that would make me even more angry than I already am.

thats not neccessarily required, as i doubt you are using dual wield mauls/2h maul to get the 20% armor pen light armor provides + blabas nirn weapon he is having quite some armor reduction. so if they just generally increased the mob resitences in general to be come of a value the "common" tooltip-dmg maximisation might not lead to the former max effective dmg output.

I do not care about the tooltip, but I do care that although I have a full dmg setup my jabs still deals less than on magicka templar which is basically IMPOSSIBLE. but w/e *** stamplar.

Tankqull · November 2015

i do not care about the tooltip either, but if you are facing 50% dmg reduction while he with spellpierce on his equipment only faces 20% he is doing more dmg than you plain and simple because you are simply "maximizing your tooltip dmg" while he is maximizing his effective dmg.

Xantaria · November 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

i do not care about the tooltip either, but if you are facing 50% dmg reduction while he with spellpierce on his equipment only faces 20% he is doing more dmg than you plain and simple because you are simply "maximizing your tooltip dmg" while he is maximizing his effective dmg.

Yup.

Personofsecrets · November 2015

aren't cp passives totally different?

Alcast · November 2015

I ditched my templar and went to stam nb. A lot more "calm" after a vMA run and surprise attack instant 15k dmg which is f-- OP compared to 1s cast 12k jabsdmg...

"balance"