Weapon damage broken again? Puncturing sweeps vs Biting Jabs

Alcast

Bashev wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Here @Alcast because I'm fully geared up atm and can post stuff for you


Give me a sec to get to round 3










Buffed


Non Buff

oh boy this is so broken, what is your CP setup on the blue parts? So I can do the same as you just with physical dmg so better to compare

96 Thaum, 71 Elfborn

okay
96 Mighty and 71 Precise Strikes

so yes, smth is literally broken lol, despite me having more power Jabs is just crap compared to Sweeps...
does elfborn work correctly, or does it also only give half the inc crit dmg it should like precise strikes? Even then, this does not really explain the low dmg.

URL for big pic > http://i.imgur.com/czZrEsj.jpg




Tooltip seems to be "right" but dmg is broken..gg

When did ZoS change biting jabs to physical damage?

in 1.6 xD But seems smth is broken, it worked fine in 1.6 but maybe since Imperial City smth is broken again...and I only just noticed it yet LOL gg zos

Asayre

@Alcast, what traits are you using on your weapons? I assume @Nifty2g is using Nirnhoned swords (also is it possible to get some non-crit and crit values, Nifty?)

Alcast

Asayre wrote: »

@Alcast, what traits are you using on your weapons? I assume @Nifty2g is using Nirnhoned swords (also is it possible to get some non-crit and crit values, Nifty?)

2x Precise, and I think nifty also uses precise given his 65% critical rating?
@Nifty what mundus do you run?

willymchilybily

Alcast wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

so yes, smth is literally broken lol, despite me having more power Jabs is just crap compared to Sweeps...
does elfborn work correctly, or does it also only give half the inc crit dmg it should like precise strikes? Even then, this does not really explain the low dmg.

that bug should have been fixed in orsinium patch (2.2.4)

Ritual

Precise Strikes: Fixed an issue where this passive was not correctly increasing the critical value of healing or abilities that did not use Physical Damage (such as Vigor, or Stamina morphs of class abilities). We also fixed an issue where this passive was increasing critical damage and healing less than intended. This passive will also now properly increase healing from effects that scale off Stamina and Weapon Critical (such as Rally).

that pic I made is from orsinium now..still smth is broken. so prcise strikes should now give the correcct amount of inc crit dmg as from patchnotes right?

it should but to me it looks like precise strikes is suffering from the same rounding error as elfborn does/did. dont know if they fixed elf born and maybe didnt test/fix precise?. (as your crit. dam. is seemingly precisely 1.8* multiplier.) though could be co-incidence and still doesnt really explain it, need more values from nifty to compare really

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3mge2d/is_elfborn_working_as_stated_now/

Ps in the "buffed" damage test was nifty using entropy for major sorcery could it just be empowering skewing the small sampled average?

GilGalad

Alcast wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

@Alcast, what traits are you using on your weapons? I assume @Nifty2g is using Nirnhoned swords (also is it possible to get some non-crit and crit values, Nifty?)

2x Precise, and I think nifty also uses precise given his 65% critical rating?
@Nifty what mundus do you run?

According to his low life and the spell dmg he is running Julianos and the thief Mundus with nirn swords. This could actually be the reason for the difference. These bosses have huge resistances. Running with elemental drain could increase my overload crits from 30 to 35k on some bosses.

Asayre

In 2.2.4 the critical modifier equation is



where



Precise Strikes can be replaced with Elfborn. So Precise Strike now gives the full stated amount rather than half as it was in the IC update. There are still rounding errors though. But the equation can be used to yield a critical modifier of 0.8 for Alcast (20% from Precise Strikes, 50% base and 10% from Piercing Spear [Skill])

Alcast

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

@Alcast, what traits are you using on your weapons? I assume @Nifty2g is using Nirnhoned swords (also is it possible to get some non-crit and crit values, Nifty?)

2x Precise, and I think nifty also uses precise given his 65% critical rating?
@Nifty what mundus do you run?

According to his low life and the spell dmg he is running Julianos and the thief Mundus with nirn swords. This could actually be the reason for the difference. These bosses have huge resistances. Running with elemental drain could increase my overload crits from 30 to 35k on some bosses.

Possible, but even then, I still have 1k more Overall Power and still do less damage on buffed crits.
Unbuffed damage stam got higher dmg. but Buffed damage is completely out of boarders? That makes no sense at all

UltimaJoe777

Malmai wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Perhaps he has better aim? The intended target of the strikes takes more damage than other targets also being hit.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Perhaps he has better aim? The intended target of the strikes takes more damage than other targets also being hit.

This is single Target dps.

Doesn't mean the attack wont hit if you didn't actually target the enemy lol

Who are? what kinda dumb questions are this? June 2015 ok...

I'm sorry were you addressing me? Guess I'm just used to ignoring your blatant negativity.

Jura23

They probably thought stam templars needed a nerf.

Xantaria

@Alcast did you not think about nirn?

Any magicka DPS will use Thief rather than Shadow and thus will NOT be using Precise Weapons.

Precise Weapons only make sense if you run Shadow.

---> He is using NIRN and that's why he deals more damage.

Only thing I'm wondering is why your crits are lower than his. That's the only thing that doesn't make a lot of sense. Nifty uses Thief obviously but I do not know about the blabafat guy. Ask him if he maybe runs shadow (for whatever reason).

Another Explanation is: Bosses simply have more Armor than Spell resistance. Easily testable by checkig your tooltip on a Magicka Based Ability, Checking your tooltip on a stamina Based ability. test both on the same boss and see how much % the mitigation was for each one.

Saucy_Jack

Maybe his spell penetration is higher than your armour penetration? Or maybe that particular boss has higher armour but lower spell resist?

Alcast

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast did you not think about nirn?

Any magicka DPS will use Thief rather than Shadow and thus will NOT be using Precise Weapons.

Precise Weapons only make sense if you run Shadow.

---> He is using NIRN and that's why he deals more damage.

I have 1k more Power, and yet he still does crazy more dmg than me even if he uses nirn? The difference so big with nirn? Stamina is just *** so hard then LOL.

And why does his unbuffed less, and his buffed more dmg? I am slightly confused. I run with serpent.

Xantaria

@Alcast

I added some stuff in my post before. Try out the mitigation explanation.

Also do you know the scaling for Weapon Damage for Jabs is the same as the scaling for Spell Damage for Puncturing Sweeps?

'Ability Coefficient

This is simply a hidden number which determines how the ability will scale and cannot be seen or changed. This simply differentiates the damage of different abilities so that everything doesn’t do the same damage or healing. You don’t really have to worry about this.'

EgoRush

The easy answer here is that everyone should re-roll magicka builds.

Xantaria

EgoRush wrote: »

The easy answer here is that everyone should re-roll magicka builds.

That's already obvious and everybody is doing it. :')

EgoRush

Xantaria wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

The easy answer here is that everyone should re-roll magicka builds.

That's already obvious and everybody is doing it. :')

Everybody? I've not seen you running about with a staff on your DK yet...except that time you tried to heal

Xantaria

EgoRush wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

The easy answer here is that everyone should re-roll magicka builds.

That's already obvious and everybody is doing it. :')

Everybody? I've not seen you running about with a staff on your DK yet...except that time you tried to heal

... Which worked out perfectly, didn't it? Don't say 'try' .... it hurts my feelings

I guess I'm just too stubborn to change to Magicka.

EgoRush

Xantaria wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

The easy answer here is that everyone should re-roll magicka builds.

That's already obvious and everybody is doing it. :')

Everybody? I've not seen you running about with a staff on your DK yet...except that time you tried to heal

... Which worked out perfectly, didn't it? Don't say 'try' .... it hurts my feelings

Haha I joke. Remember I was one of the few that had faith in your healing! I was ready go to come to vDSA as DD with you healing.

Alcast

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast

I added some stuff in my post before. Try out the mitigation explanation.

Also do you know the scaling for Weapon Damage for Jabs is the same as the scaling for Spell Damage for Puncturing Sweeps?

'Ability Coefficient

This is simply a hidden number which determines how the ability will scale and cannot be seen or changed. This simply differentiates the damage of different abilities so that everything doesn’t do the same damage or healing. You don’t really have to worry about this.'

I worry about my *** jabs doing less damage although I stack the *** up into oblivion....rip staminabuild

What point in running Stamina does it have when I stack weap dmg/stam like crazy but in the end still deal LESS damage.

Xantaria

@Alcast

If you Run Serpent then everything is already explained.

He deals slightly more damage than you because he has penetration from his weapons and you don't.

In exchange you have more regen. GG

Alcast

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast

If you Run Serpent then everything is already explained.

He deals slightly more damage than you because he has penetration from his weapons and you don't.

In exchange you have more regen. GG

Guess its time to grind my v12 Altmer templar up.

EgoRush

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast

If you Run Serpent then everything is already explained.

He deals slightly more damage than you because he has penetration from his weapons and you don't.

In exchange you have more regen. GG

Guess its time to grind my v12 Altmer templar up.

Yes! Though keep PotL, we need that.

EgoRush

Also, if you go magicka templar you'll miss the AoE we're terrible at that even with proxi...

Alcast

EgoRush wrote: »

Also, if you go magicka templar you'll miss the AoE we're terrible at that even with proxi...

dont need aoe in *** arena, sweeps all up no problemo

Xantaria

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast

If you Run Serpent then everything is already explained.

He deals slightly more damage than you because he has penetration from his weapons and you don't.

In exchange you have more regen. GG

Guess its time to grind my v12 Altmer templar up.

@Alcast
Well you do understand that you deal more or Equal DPS as he does if you would switch to shadow? Running precise Weapons with Serpent also seems bad to me. I'd go for Sharpened Weapons if using Serpent. You will deal more damage than him with that. Keep in mind that in exchange for his nirnhoned penetration you have more crit (because of Precise Weapons) than he has if you would both run without mundus. It's only thief mundus giving him a Crit value similar to yours. And you just don't use a mundus benefitting your DPS.

The point of a stamina build currently is to have high crit and high crit damage. Something you won't see on a tooltip or one number. But you will see it in the long run.

But well ... high crit Values are bugged since PTS and are only announced to be fixed 'soon'. Block / Sprint / Dodge cost is still bugged and too high I think.

We'll ahve to wait a few weeks to even test DPS properly because atm we have lower crit than it should be.

Asayre

Also @Nifty2g's crit damage when buffed is not 5725. In the buffed damge report, he gets 56.3% crit which means 9 crit hits. If his crit was 5725 then the total damage from crits would be 51525 but his total damage is 54690 so his non-crit would be ridiculously low. That 5725 must have something else in it.

Alcast

Xantaria wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast

If you Run Serpent then everything is already explained.

He deals slightly more damage than you because he has penetration from his weapons and you don't.

In exchange you have more regen. GG

Guess its time to grind my v12 Altmer templar up.

@Alcast
Well you do understand that you deal more or Equal DPS as he does if you would switch to shadow? Running precise Weapons with Serpent also seems bad to me. I'd go for Sharpened Weapons if using Serpent. You will deal more damage than him with that. Keep in mind that in exchange for his nirnhoned penetration you have more crit (because of Precise Weapons) than he has if you would both run without mundus. It's only thief mundus giving him a Crit value similar to yours. And you just don't use a mundus benefitting your DPS.

The point of a stamina build currently is to have high crit and high crit damage. Something you won't see on a tooltip or one number. But you will see it in the long run.

But well ... high crit Values are bugged since PTS and are only announced to be fixed 'soon'. Block / Sprint / Dodge cost is still bugged and too high I think.

We'll ahve to wait a few weeks to even test DPS properly because atm we have lower crit than it should be.

I Need Serpent Mundus, running with 900 Stam Rec is not going to cut it in arena.

willymchilybily

Asayre wrote: »

Also @Nifty2g's crit damage when buffed is not 5725. In the buffed damge report, he gets 56.3% crit which means 9 crit hits. If his crit was 5725 then the total damage from crits would be 51525 but his total damage is 54690 so his non-crit would be ridiculously low. That 5725 must have something else in it.

willymchilybily wrote: »

Ps in the "buffed" damage test was nifty using entropy for major sorcery could it just be empowering skewing the small sampled average?

maybe? though its not seen on damage recap

Xantaria

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast

If you Run Serpent then everything is already explained.

He deals slightly more damage than you because he has penetration from his weapons and you don't.

In exchange you have more regen. GG

Guess its time to grind my v12 Altmer templar up.

@Alcast
Well you do understand that you deal more or Equal DPS as he does if you would switch to shadow? Running precise Weapons with Serpent also seems bad to me. I'd go for Sharpened Weapons if using Serpent. You will deal more damage than him with that. Keep in mind that in exchange for his nirnhoned penetration you have more crit (because of Precise Weapons) than he has if you would both run without mundus. It's only thief mundus giving him a Crit value similar to yours. And you just don't use a mundus benefitting your DPS.

The point of a stamina build currently is to have high crit and high crit damage. Something you won't see on a tooltip or one number. But you will see it in the long run.

But well ... high crit Values are bugged since PTS and are only announced to be fixed 'soon'. Block / Sprint / Dodge cost is still bugged and too high I think.

We'll ahve to wait a few weeks to even test DPS properly because atm we have lower crit than it should be.

I Need Serpent Mundus, running with 900 Stam Rec is not going to cut it in arena.

YES but then you can't compare your values with someone who is not using a regen stone. He would have Much lower crit if he was not using thief. And that is the point where you could make up for his numbers in general being higher. Because of your way(!) higher Critical chance as a Stamina Build.

Alcast

Xantaria wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

@Alcast

If you Run Serpent then everything is already explained.

He deals slightly more damage than you because he has penetration from his weapons and you don't.

In exchange you have more regen. GG

Guess its time to grind my v12 Altmer templar up.

@Alcast
Well you do understand that you deal more or Equal DPS as he does if you would switch to shadow? Running precise Weapons with Serpent also seems bad to me. I'd go for Sharpened Weapons if using Serpent. You will deal more damage than him with that. Keep in mind that in exchange for his nirnhoned penetration you have more crit (because of Precise Weapons) than he has if you would both run without mundus. It's only thief mundus giving him a Crit value similar to yours. And you just don't use a mundus benefitting your DPS.

The point of a stamina build currently is to have high crit and high crit damage. Something you won't see on a tooltip or one number. But you will see it in the long run.

But well ... high crit Values are bugged since PTS and are only announced to be fixed 'soon'. Block / Sprint / Dodge cost is still bugged and too high I think.

We'll ahve to wait a few weeks to even test DPS properly because atm we have lower crit than it should be.

I Need Serpent Mundus, running with 900 Stam Rec is not going to cut it in arena.

YES but then you can't compare your values with someone who is not using a regen stone. He would have Much lower crit if he was not using thief. And that is the point where you could make up for his numbers in general being higher. Because of your way(!) higher Critical chance as a Stamina Build.

I get your point. but...I do not have any selfhealing though punct sweeps and therefor should get higher dmg numbers which is imo not the case. rip my templar