PvP Podcast (Episode 7 Uploaded)

Anazasi · October 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Checked the replay out, sorry I did. This podcast is a joke. Same thing as last time: 4 1vXers talking about AvAvA - they have a lot of knowledge but only about the way they play the game. That's unfortunate.
So I'm glad for all the fanboys that like to watch 1vXing, more power to you. But that's not what AvA is about. Dont' give me the crap about small scale fights can happen, it's not about 1v1, 4v4, it's about groups. Look at my posts and see that I agree about zerging and things that can be done to address - I've put out more ideas (and better IMO) than most of these guys.

You have some guests on, in a loaded room, outnumbered, to get badgered by fanboys. And to put someone in a hotseat and then say "c'mon man" when they try and defend themselves - how about Shut the F up and let the guest say what they want to say.

"remember when you could have giant battles and no lag" - 1. No. There was lag at the start if fights were big enough. Yes it got worse as time went on and that's not how a game getting patched with improvements should be. Also,"now you get one 24 man group fighting and lag city" - No. We have full on 24 man vs 24 man fights. Fights now are lagging out the server when they get crazy big like 50+ vs. other large numbers, especially if it becomes 3 way. Unfortunately, if one of those fights is going on on the other side of the map, it still effects you wherever else you are fighting, even in a small group.

Again, guys I've played with have always run in a group, from the start. I've been playing this game since pre-beta PTS. Call it a ball group if it makes you feel strong, but yes, we did stay within AoE of buffs/heals, from the start.

If you think a DK needs to drop ulti's the way they used to be good, then you shouldn't be giving your opinion on DKs. Sorry. Stam DKs, one of the strongest and they do not need a stam whip added to it (though I'm not against it). Class extremely tanky. The only thing about DKs right now is that to be really good with them, you have to know what you are doing really well and with a lot of other classes, you can play them strong with only using cookie cutter builds and following simpler rotations.

Also, 'S' comments about "now we don't have specific builds that stand out like DK vamp" - 1. The reason that was so good is because it was broken as heck and everyone knows it. 2. Part of the issue isn't that the game is crappy right now (don't disagree there) but the issue is that the amount of players that theorycraft well are lacking. There are stand out builds where you want a specific players in a group if you can get them. I can think of several players that I prefer having not just them, but their build and it's not a cookie cutter "group" build even though we are in a group. Those guys make up a small part of the group however, even in a strong group, most will still be running those aoe cookie cutter builds. But the amount of times we've seen build videos pop up by streamers weeks (or more) after we've already had people running those builds or similar and then watched tons of players jump on the builds is astounding. A lot of people are waiting to be told what to run and not figuring it out for themselves.

Really agreed with you guys when you touched on how zos rolled stuff out that shows they don't know their game well enough. You should apply that to yourself when you go to talk about AvA. If you want to duel, again, more power to you, but dueling isn't going to take keeps, crown emps, run scrolls - which is what the game is built for. Not saying small groups or singles don't or should not have a use or place, at all (I prefer running in a smaller group than we've had to lately) but if you always run 4 men or smaller, then you really aren't going to know about all the little things of group fighting. You are going to assume a lot, just like zos does and you are looking the same way to those of us that know that part of the game as you think zos looks.

And I'll guarantee you that hardcore pvpers make up less than 10% of the ESO pop. The reason the CP average is so low is a combination of players that don't log on much and casual PvErs. ZoS talks to trade guilds and PvE guilds way more than PvP guilds and in feedback with PvP in the past, they seemed very uninterested when we had actual devs on. Only the PvE guys like dungeon designers seemed to care about feedback. IC was changed to be more PvE centric as it moved in development. It's better for them to have more players that spend crowns and don't tax the servers by playing a ton than anything else.

Anyway, hard to reply to a long podcast, so gonna move on. Get some more special guests and when you do, actually talk about big group play more and debate like we were doing in the forum thread here the last week.

I agree, get rid of AoE caps. Not gonna stop zergs however. Gotta look at several other things I mentioned earlier in the thread that aren't straight combat related.

Xaraan, You are my hero! I'm definitely adding you to my x-mas list!!!!!

Joy_Division · October 2015

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I would like to add something about yesterdays podcast.

One of the things you said was bad with DK, was that talons was blockable. I read in patch notes that next patch it wont be blockable again.

I think you are overestimate the steel tornado compared to the impulse:
I agree impuls could get longer radius tho. But impulse also have a morph with a dot, witch makes easy proccing of f example skoria or sorc passive with lightning staff. It also gives magicka back and have spell penetration as destruction staff passive.

Since stamina is also used for dealing dmg with steel tornado, its harder to blockcast. You wont regen your dmg resource compare to blockcasting with impulse, where you constantly recover magicka.

I have also many times experienced with steel tornado that you have trouble getting a light attack to gain ultimate while spinning, since you have to dodge aoe etc as well. With a destrostaff that is not a problem.

Pls dont cry for nerf before you actually knows every detail around it. You are good players and have good points, but you are only humans too and can easily overlook things, and yesterdays podcast I think all of you missed very important information. I also personally think there was too much people involved but I didnt get the first part. Why were you 6 people btw?

This is not a negative post, its constructive critism.

Impulse: 113.04 area coverage.
Steel Tornado: 490.63 area coverage.

Elemental Ring Small DoT in PvP: 50% battle nerf + resilient passive in Champion System + multiple passive in CP system that reduce it = literally worthless. Don't believe me? Watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJJb863umd4.

Impulse Minor Mangle Vs. Ball Group = usually worthless because of purge.

Both of these effects do not stack, that is they get overwritten on multiple casts and thus makes the benefits worthless on additional casts.

Steel Tornado's additional damage effects effects are immediate: that extra damage does not get purge, does not get mitigated by multiple passives mutliple times like magic dots, does not get overwritten on multiple steel tornado casts (i.e. enemy is always taking that extra damage).

Valkyn Skoira set is trash. It does not proc:

valkyn%20nerf_zps2fg7mqn7.jpg

.

Impulse only gives resources back if an opponent dies to Impulse.
Steel Tornado has a reduced cost which means you are always managing your resource with every single cast.

Blockcasting was relevant for magicka builds before the blocking nerf. Do it now you and will have zero stamina and zero regeneration.

As a steel tornado user, I don't have to blockast because my area of effect is 500 which makes it much more applicable in the IC patch. I stand way over here out of danger and hit you.

If you experienced many times you can't get ultimate while steel tornadoing, that is L2P. Weaving in a light attack has the exact same mechanics: aim enemy in reticle, press left mouse button. Of course since steel tornado area of effect is so huge an enemy might actually be too far away (a good problem to have), just use vigor and gain ultimate buff.

Impulse: 113.04 area coverage.
Steel Tornado: 490.63 area coverage.

So important it gets mentioned twice. Impulse has to be noticeably better to compete. It is not.

It's not even close just how bad impulse is compared to steel tornado

JDar · October 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

What is there left to talk about that this thread hasn't beaten to death? :P

Well instead of a full complain and moan show they could actually try to do something interesting and fun and positive for the community.

When your concept is based around talking about what is wrong with the game obviously it is no surprise that it causes strife in the community. Just my two cents.

ToRelax · October 2015

JDar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

What is there left to talk about that this thread hasn't beaten to death? :P

Well instead of a full complain and moan show they could actually try to do something interesting and fun and positive for the community.

When your concept is based around talking about what is wrong with the game obviously it is no surprise that it causes strife in the community. Just my two cents.

The things that are good about the game are just great, most of all the combat system. The problems that are being talked about kill the PvP though, and not talking about them would just mean giving up on the game. They don't bring up problems that would drive players away from the game once they'd be dealt with. Who would leave because AoE cap was removed or maybe an Arena implemented (the latter one being one of the changes not everyone wants)?
But players already did leave because of AoE caps and lack of small scale PvP. ZOS can either work on the game to bring them back or watch those still passionate enough to get this podcast going leave as well.

Etaniel · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I would like to add something about yesterdays podcast.

One of the things you said was bad with DK, was that talons was blockable. I read in patch notes that next patch it wont be blockable again.

I think you are overestimate the steel tornado compared to the impulse:
I agree impuls could get longer radius tho. But impulse also have a morph with a dot, witch makes easy proccing of f example skoria or sorc passive with lightning staff. It also gives magicka back and have spell penetration as destruction staff passive.

Since stamina is also used for dealing dmg with steel tornado, its harder to blockcast. You wont regen your dmg resource compare to blockcasting with impulse, where you constantly recover magicka.

I have also many times experienced with steel tornado that you have trouble getting a light attack to gain ultimate while spinning, since you have to dodge aoe etc as well. With a destrostaff that is not a problem.

Pls dont cry for nerf before you actually knows every detail around it. You are good players and have good points, but you are only humans too and can easily overlook things, and yesterdays podcast I think all of you missed very important information. I also personally think there was too much people involved but I didnt get the first part. Why were you 6 people btw?

This is not a negative post, its constructive critism.

Impulse: 113.04 area coverage.
Steel Tornado: 490.63 area coverage.

Elemental Ring Small DoT in PvP: 50% battle nerf + resilient passive in Champion System + multiple passive in CP system that reduce it = literally worthless. Don't believe me? Watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJJb863umd4.

Impulse Minor Mangle Vs. Ball Group = usually worthless because of purge.

Both of these effects do not stack, that is they get overwritten on multiple casts and thus makes the benefits worthless on additional casts.

Steel Tornado's additional damage effects effects are immediate: that extra damage does not get purge, does not get mitigated by multiple passives mutliple times like magic dots, does not get overwritten on multiple steel tornado casts (i.e. enemy is always taking that extra damage).

Valkyn Skoira set is trash. It does not proc:

.

Impulse only gives resources back if an opponent dies to Impulse.
Steel Tornado has a reduced cost which means you are always managing your resource with every single cast.

Blockcasting was relevant for magicka builds before the blocking nerf. Do it now you and will have zero stamina and zero regeneration.

As a steel tornado user, I don't have to blockast because my area of effect is 500 which makes it much more applicable in the IC patch. I stand way over here out of danger and hit you.

If you experienced many times you can't get ultimate while steel tornadoing, that is L2P. Weaving in a light attack has the exact same mechanics: aim enemy in reticle, press left mouse button. Of course since steel tornado area of effect is so huge an enemy might actually be too far away (a good problem to have), just use vigor and gain ultimate buff.

Impulse: 113.04 area coverage.
Steel Tornado: 490.63 area coverage.

So important it gets mentioned twice. Impulse has to be noticeably better to compete. It is not.

It's not even close just how bad impulse is compared to steel tornado

You are clearly melting in that wall of element spam. Wroebel called it ! nerf it !

Manoekin · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

What is there left to talk about that this thread hasn't beaten to death? :P

Well instead of a full complain and moan show they could actually try to do something interesting and fun and positive for the community.

When your concept is based around talking about what is wrong with the game obviously it is no surprise that it causes strife in the community. Just my two cents.

The things that are good about the game are just great, most of all the combat system. The problems that are being talked about kill the PvP though, and not talking about them would just mean giving up on the game. They don't bring up problems that would drive players away from the game once they'd be dealt with. Who would leave because AoE cap was removed or maybe an Arena implemented (the latter one being one of the changes not everyone wants)?
But players already did leave because of AoE caps and lack of small scale PvP. ZOS can either work on the game to bring them back or watch those still passionate enough to get this podcast going leave as well.

Per arenas... I'm still torn on this one. I'd like to see them (I'd like to see battlegrounds more), but it can't take people out of Cyrodiil. Like said on the podcast, ZOS will not create another option other than Cyrodiil and I'm pretty sure IC is proof of that enough. Would be nice if at set times a random town in Cyrodiil would have the 4v4v4 event that you could queue up for once you arrive near it. Also, a dueling option is long overdue. Just add it to the game and only allow it in Cyrodiil. Maybe even make a certain town a FFA town (outside of group so you can get ressed).

Ishammael · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I would like to add something about yesterdays podcast.

One of the things you said was bad with DK, was that talons was blockable. I read in patch notes that next patch it wont be blockable again.

I think you are overestimate the steel tornado compared to the impulse:
I agree impuls could get longer radius tho. But impulse also have a morph with a dot, witch makes easy proccing of f example skoria or sorc passive with lightning staff. It also gives magicka back and have spell penetration as destruction staff passive.

Since stamina is also used for dealing dmg with steel tornado, its harder to blockcast. You wont regen your dmg resource compare to blockcasting with impulse, where you constantly recover magicka.

I have also many times experienced with steel tornado that you have trouble getting a light attack to gain ultimate while spinning, since you have to dodge aoe etc as well. With a destrostaff that is not a problem.

Pls dont cry for nerf before you actually knows every detail around it. You are good players and have good points, but you are only humans too and can easily overlook things, and yesterdays podcast I think all of you missed very important information. I also personally think there was too much people involved but I didnt get the first part. Why were you 6 people btw?

This is not a negative post, its constructive critism.

There is nothing particularly wrong with the qualitative points that you make about Impulse vs. Steel Tornado.

However, you didn't bother with any numbers. I'll do it for you.

Area / Range
1. Impulse: 6^2 = 36
2. Steel Tornado: 12^2 = 144

Base Weapon Dmg
1. Impulse: Destro Staff (~1300)
2. Steel Tornado: DW (~1600) + 1 extra set bonus (129) + 12% medium armor passive

Weapon-Line Skill Modifiers:
1. Impulse: Light Armor Pen
2. Steel Tornado: + vs low health on skill, + vs low health DW passive, + vs stunned/snared DW passive

Stamina itemization
Magicka dmg reduction
Crit Damage Medium Armor

Do I need to keep going?

Ehm. That is not how area covered for circles is calculated. Don´t forget pi

pi is just a scalar... can be neglected when comparing.

OrphanHelgen · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I would like to add something about yesterdays podcast.

One of the things you said was bad with DK, was that talons was blockable. I read in patch notes that next patch it wont be blockable again.

I think you are overestimate the steel tornado compared to the impulse:
I agree impuls could get longer radius tho. But impulse also have a morph with a dot, witch makes easy proccing of f example skoria or sorc passive with lightning staff. It also gives magicka back and have spell penetration as destruction staff passive.

Since stamina is also used for dealing dmg with steel tornado, its harder to blockcast. You wont regen your dmg resource compare to blockcasting with impulse, where you constantly recover magicka.

I have also many times experienced with steel tornado that you have trouble getting a light attack to gain ultimate while spinning, since you have to dodge aoe etc as well. With a destrostaff that is not a problem.

Pls dont cry for nerf before you actually knows every detail around it. You are good players and have good points, but you are only humans too and can easily overlook things, and yesterdays podcast I think all of you missed very important information. I also personally think there was too much people involved but I didnt get the first part. Why were you 6 people btw?

This is not a negative post, its constructive critism.

Impulse: 113.04 area coverage.
Steel Tornado: 490.63 area coverage.

Elemental Ring Small DoT in PvP: 50% battle nerf + resilient passive in Champion System + multiple passive in CP system that reduce it = literally worthless. Don't believe me? Watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJJb863umd4.

Impulse Minor Mangle Vs. Ball Group = usually worthless because of purge.

Both of these effects do not stack, that is they get overwritten on multiple casts and thus makes the benefits worthless on additional casts.

Steel Tornado's additional damage effects effects are immediate: that extra damage does not get purge, does not get mitigated by multiple passives mutliple times like magic dots, does not get overwritten on multiple steel tornado casts (i.e. enemy is always taking that extra damage).

Valkyn Skoira set is trash. It does not proc:

.

Impulse only gives resources back if an opponent dies to Impulse.
Steel Tornado has a reduced cost which means you are always managing your resource with every single cast.

Blockcasting was relevant for magicka builds before the blocking nerf. Do it now you and will have zero stamina and zero regeneration.

As a steel tornado user, I don't have to blockast because my area of effect is 500 which makes it much more applicable in the IC patch. I stand way over here out of danger and hit you.

If you experienced many times you can't get ultimate while steel tornadoing, that is L2P. Weaving in a light attack has the exact same mechanics: aim enemy in reticle, press left mouse button. Of course since steel tornado area of effect is so huge an enemy might actually be too far away (a good problem to have), just use vigor and gain ultimate buff.

Impulse: 113.04 area coverage.
Steel Tornado: 490.63 area coverage.

So important it gets mentioned twice. Impulse has to be noticeably better to compete. It is not.

It's not even close just how bad impulse is compared to steel tornado

Thank you for putting out good points, witch was my point too exactly, that the only thing they discussed on the show was the range and thats it. There is ups and downs with everything. I dont say impulse are better then steel tornado, but there is more then just range and dmg in this game

When that is said, its different in pvp then in pve, I think the gap between those two skills are larger in pvp.
I read carefully everything you said and combine it with my own personal experience, but I did not completely agree with the fact that gaining ultimate as a melee DD is l2p. It is pure fact that it is a more struggle to get in a light attack with melee then with range. Again, I dont say its impossible or hard, I say its easier with range weapons, its not even needed to be discussed. To have constant ultimate up with a melee weapon compared with range, are not always as easy as gap closing and light attack.
If Im in a group and have to wait for engage, I cant just gapclose and light attack, or if I am on a keep, I cant jump down to hit a light attack. Options are to use vigor or exploits like the roll dodge in NB sap essence skill (Im a DK btw so cant do that). But other then that, again I have to mention: It is not l2p when you say gaining ultimate from melee are less easy then gaining ultimate from range.

Forgot to mention the skoria and damage over time in general. Yes that is a good point you have, also I would like to add that a dot (even when not purged) are easily outhealed combined with a one shot burst.

Cody · October 2015

If I get the time, I will start watching these. I have had a crap ton of homework lately:(

xaraan · October 2015

Jules wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

You should apply that to yourself when you go to talk about AvA. If you want to duel, again, more power to you, but dueling isn't going to take keeps, crown emps, run scrolls - which is what the game is built for. Not saying small groups or singles don't or should not have a use or place, at all (I prefer running in a smaller group than we've had to lately) but if you always run 4 men or smaller, then you really aren't going to know about all the little things of group fighting.

Did we talk about dueling? I don't even duel this patch. I play in Cyrodiil, I play in IC just like everyone else. If I want to voice my opinion about the game from my perspective and if people care enough to listen then let it be.

Latency affects everyone, AOE caps affect everyone, the state of PvP affects everyone. I've played the game long enough to at least have some knowledge to form an opinion on certain aspects of the game.

If you don't agree with my opinions that's completely up to you, but my word shouldn't be dismissed because I don't play in large groups or "AvA"

I think that was his point and the majority of the pvp playerbase. Or as you 4 call it, the zerg balls. This game was designed for large scale pvp. Every time someone tries to give can opinion that plays with large groups they get insulted with services, lacks skill hitting two buttons, etc.

So their opinions get dismissed. Just like in this podcast.

I expressed multiple times the group size I run in and I didn't feel like my opinions were dismissed by the panelists.

I think my issue and a couple others took issue with Fengrush in between the two podcasts using our group as an example of what's wrong b/c of our twenty man "ball group" picking on his sixty man zerg. I've probably took that in offense of two ways 1. being about us so made me want to comment and 2. being a horrible example to use in that situation to make that point with. He was probably just going on a point from what he was already talking about last podcast and interacting with comments in his stream, so I doubt if he was going to custom pick an example, he'd use that and I should probably stop holding it against him, but instead of saying anything like that he just argued back and it perpetuated.

xaraan · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

You should apply that to yourself when you go to talk about AvA. If you want to duel, again, more power to you, but dueling isn't going to take keeps, crown emps, run scrolls - which is what the game is built for. Not saying small groups or singles don't or should not have a use or place, at all (I prefer running in a smaller group than we've had to lately) but if you always run 4 men or smaller, then you really aren't going to know about all the little things of group fighting.

Did we talk about dueling? I don't even duel this patch. I play in Cyrodiil, I play in IC just like everyone else. If I want to voice my opinion about the game from my perspective and if people care enough to listen then let it be.

Latency affects everyone, AOE caps affect everyone, the state of PvP affects everyone. I've played the game long enough to at least have some knowledge to form an opinion on certain aspects of the game.

If you don't agree with my opinions that's completely up to you, but my word shouldn't be dismissed because I don't play in large groups or "AvA"

I think that was his point and the majority of the pvp playerbase. Or as you 4 call it, the zerg balls. This game was designed for large scale pvp. Every time someone tries to give can opinion that plays with large groups they get insulted with services, lacks skill hitting two buttons, etc.

So their opinions get dismissed. Just like in this podcast.

Large scale pvp has nothing do to with grpsize normally.

The ballgrps you have in eso are a result of shady gamemechanics providing benefits for stacking up as tight as possible and have nothing to do with largescale pvp in general imho.

Though you are correct that the game mechanics have made ballgroups pop up that run tighter, refuse to spread out at all, etc. It didn't cause them and group play was still in pvp (or ball group play, whatever you wanna call it) back when the "game was good" according to the panelists. I've said this a million times, but the guild I ran with ran as a group, moved as a group, coordinated ultimates, responded to enemy movements - together, moving as a unit. Now, when you see some good groups doing this in giant battles and prospering others will try it - and with the current mechanics it's a lot easier to try and pull off now because they've really screwed up the balance between small and large group play.

I can't speak for others, but myself - I have been taking issue with Fengrush's example in his stream last Tues. where our group of twenty some guys were fighting fifty to sixty blues. Funny to watch him make all these points about how we wouldn't be doing that in the old days when that is EXACTLY what we did in the old days (though sometimes even in a smaller group).

No matter what changes get made, a large group of good players that stays in the AoE's of each others heals and even attacks and moves as a unit, using their strength together is always going to perform well against a broken zerg of just numbers. I agree with the panelists that it's a shame the last patch made numbers matter so much more than skill (which is why we tend to run in groups double the size of what we used to run in), but to think numbers - especially numbers working together as a smart unit - won't still occur, I simply wanted to point out all along that it still will and always has (even from pre-launch).

JDar · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I would like to add something about yesterdays podcast.

One of the things you said was bad with DK, was that talons was blockable. I read in patch notes that next patch it wont be blockable again.

I think you are overestimate the steel tornado compared to the impulse:
I agree impuls could get longer radius tho. But impulse also have a morph with a dot, witch makes easy proccing of f example skoria or sorc passive with lightning staff. It also gives magicka back and have spell penetration as destruction staff passive.

Since stamina is also used for dealing dmg with steel tornado, its harder to blockcast. You wont regen your dmg resource compare to blockcasting with impulse, where you constantly recover magicka.

I have also many times experienced with steel tornado that you have trouble getting a light attack to gain ultimate while spinning, since you have to dodge aoe etc as well. With a destrostaff that is not a problem.

Pls dont cry for nerf before you actually knows every detail around it. You are good players and have good points, but you are only humans too and can easily overlook things, and yesterdays podcast I think all of you missed very important information. I also personally think there was too much people involved but I didnt get the first part. Why were you 6 people btw?

This is not a negative post, its constructive critism.

There is nothing particularly wrong with the qualitative points that you make about Impulse vs. Steel Tornado.

However, you didn't bother with any numbers. I'll do it for you.

Area / Range
1. Impulse: 6^2 = 36
2. Steel Tornado: 12^2 = 144

Base Weapon Dmg
1. Impulse: Destro Staff (~1300)
2. Steel Tornado: DW (~1600) + 1 extra set bonus (129) + 12% medium armor passive

Weapon-Line Skill Modifiers:
1. Impulse: Light Armor Pen
2. Steel Tornado: + vs low health on skill, + vs low health DW passive, + vs stunned/snared DW passive

Stamina itemization
Magicka dmg reduction
Crit Damage Medium Armor

Do I need to keep going?

Ehm. That is not how area covered for circles is calculated. Don´t forget pi

pi is just a scalar... can be neglected when comparing.

Yes, the correct formula is pi r squared, even though we all know pi r round.

Ishammael · October 2015

JDar wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I would like to add something about yesterdays podcast.

One of the things you said was bad with DK, was that talons was blockable. I read in patch notes that next patch it wont be blockable again.

I think you are overestimate the steel tornado compared to the impulse:
I agree impuls could get longer radius tho. But impulse also have a morph with a dot, witch makes easy proccing of f example skoria or sorc passive with lightning staff. It also gives magicka back and have spell penetration as destruction staff passive.

Since stamina is also used for dealing dmg with steel tornado, its harder to blockcast. You wont regen your dmg resource compare to blockcasting with impulse, where you constantly recover magicka.

I have also many times experienced with steel tornado that you have trouble getting a light attack to gain ultimate while spinning, since you have to dodge aoe etc as well. With a destrostaff that is not a problem.

Pls dont cry for nerf before you actually knows every detail around it. You are good players and have good points, but you are only humans too and can easily overlook things, and yesterdays podcast I think all of you missed very important information. I also personally think there was too much people involved but I didnt get the first part. Why were you 6 people btw?

This is not a negative post, its constructive critism.

There is nothing particularly wrong with the qualitative points that you make about Impulse vs. Steel Tornado.

However, you didn't bother with any numbers. I'll do it for you.

Area / Range
1. Impulse: 6^2 = 36
2. Steel Tornado: 12^2 = 144

Base Weapon Dmg
1. Impulse: Destro Staff (~1300)
2. Steel Tornado: DW (~1600) + 1 extra set bonus (129) + 12% medium armor passive

Weapon-Line Skill Modifiers:
1. Impulse: Light Armor Pen
2. Steel Tornado: + vs low health on skill, + vs low health DW passive, + vs stunned/snared DW passive

Stamina itemization
Magicka dmg reduction
Crit Damage Medium Armor

Do I need to keep going?

Ehm. That is not how area covered for circles is calculated. Don´t forget pi

pi is just a scalar... can be neglected when comparing.

Yes, the correct formula is pi r squared, even though we all know pi r round.

Lawl

xaraan · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Don't act like you aren't someone expecting your opinion not to be heard from zos, you even said you wish they were more involved with you guys. So yeah, people that play in other parts of the game that aren't 1vX are going to be concerned about someone's comments on combat when it comes from a more narrow perspective. Did you talk about dueling? You talk about a lot of skills from a 1v1 perspective - which is needed, but is not the total.

Maybe I'm wrong and you are capping flags with groups to take keeps and running scrolls back and I'm not seeing it. If so, my bad.

Latency Effects everyone - but if you are blaming it on a 24 man "ball" group, then you aren't helping anyone. Because that one group isn't what's causing the issue, you are just assuming it is. If it is, then how have I been in several fights bigger than that without lag? So yes, I agree the zerg mentality effects the lag, but when you guys start narrowing down on specifics and talking about changes devs need to make, SPECIFICS MATTER.

And no, if you share your opinion and expect people to just nod blindly in agreement, then you are in the wrong place. Many will gladly share our opinions about your opinion, we won't let it be.

Don't agree with the premise that you have to participate in capping keeps and running scrolls to provide feedback to Cyrodiil AvA.

This, especially now. I haven't really led my group to take keeps or scrolls since 1.5, but would like to. The best we could do is cut reinforcements, take outposts or save a friendly siege when they're in trouble. I would expect I people would listen to me more rather than less when I can not do what I want to do anymore.

I think my point was more about running in group play (as in more than just playing with one or two of your friends in a 4 man or less group) consistently than actually having to cap flags. I'd think most get that, but maybe not, my bad. My point was that they run in AvA group play about as much as I run around Cyro or IC solo looking for tiny fights - both sides have done their share of both, but I'm smart enough to realize they'd speak more thoroughly on those small scale combat fights than I would, the reverse doesn't seem to be happening. They all think that their existing knowledge is enough to make them experts in all types of PvP combat (or it comes off that way) and some take issue with that - especially when they make statements here or there that are completely off.

It's why I used the zos example in my earlier post. We all say "zos doesn't play their game" but we've seen them play it on streams all the time - so they literally do play the game. But there is a difference in the amount of experience and depth of knowledge when you only play something occasionally. Not once have they mentioned the biggest thing effecting zerg balls is the new battle spirit - that change gave numbers strength more than AoE caps or any other thing, but it seem like only groups that fight other groups have noticed the real effect it's had on the game. (Though again, they should get rid of AoE caps).

xaraan · October 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

revonine wrote: »

When the chat gets rowdy, nothing can really control them. (Did you see ESO Live 2 weeks ago?)

^this.
The chat isn't in the recorded version of the stream so I can't figure out for myself what really happened, but I remember very well Fengrush defending the bashers in chat and legitimating their behaviour in the ESO live stream. For having experienced it from the other side, he might see things differently this time.
And streamers might consider trying to calm down the crowds instead of encouraging them to ... "express themselves"...

when you (mods included) are encouraging fans with jokes that continued from the earlier podcast (even incorrect jokes - even worse IMO) and think that's not encouraging their behavior next time, then there isn't going to be any help for that.

edit: I don't mean "you" personally, just in a generic sense

Sypher · October 2015

Here's the episode on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D4FGw_ro1o

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

xaraan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Don't act like you aren't someone expecting your opinion not to be heard from zos, you even said you wish they were more involved with you guys. So yeah, people that play in other parts of the game that aren't 1vX are going to be concerned about someone's comments on combat when it comes from a more narrow perspective. Did you talk about dueling? You talk about a lot of skills from a 1v1 perspective - which is needed, but is not the total.

Maybe I'm wrong and you are capping flags with groups to take keeps and running scrolls back and I'm not seeing it. If so, my bad.

Latency Effects everyone - but if you are blaming it on a 24 man "ball" group, then you aren't helping anyone. Because that one group isn't what's causing the issue, you are just assuming it is. If it is, then how have I been in several fights bigger than that without lag? So yes, I agree the zerg mentality effects the lag, but when you guys start narrowing down on specifics and talking about changes devs need to make, SPECIFICS MATTER.

And no, if you share your opinion and expect people to just nod blindly in agreement, then you are in the wrong place. Many will gladly share our opinions about your opinion, we won't let it be.

Don't agree with the premise that you have to participate in capping keeps and running scrolls to provide feedback to Cyrodiil AvA.

This, especially now. I haven't really led my group to take keeps or scrolls since 1.5, but would like to. The best we could do is cut reinforcements, take outposts or save a friendly siege when they're in trouble. I would expect I people would listen to me more rather than less when I can not do what I want to do anymore.

I think my point was more about running in group play (as in more than just playing with one or two of your friends in a 4 man or less group) consistently than actually having to cap flags. I'd think most get that, but maybe not, my bad. My point was that they run in AvA group play about as much as I run around Cyro or IC solo looking for tiny fights - both sides have done their share of both, but I'm smart enough to realize they'd speak more thoroughly on those small scale combat fights than I would, the reverse doesn't seem to be happening. They all think that their existing knowledge is enough to make them experts in all types of PvP combat (or it comes off that way) and some take issue with that - especially when they make statements here or there that are completely off.

It's why I used the zos example in my earlier post. We all say "zos doesn't play their game" but we've seen them play it on streams all the time - so they literally do play the game. But there is a difference in the amount of experience and depth of knowledge when you only play something occasionally. Not once have they mentioned the biggest thing effecting zerg balls is the new battle spirit - that change gave numbers strength more than AoE caps or any other thing, but it seem like only groups that fight other groups have noticed the real effect it's had on the game. (Though again, they should get rid of AoE caps).

I think you are forgetting one important point: ESO is not the first AvA game. Most PvPers who came to ESO did at least try GW2 or WAR before. How was that american self marketing mass pvp guild called again, that produced a lot of the first PvP quality vids in beta? Can`t remember, but the first thing they tried was to import the GW2 paintrain meta to ESO. Because that`s what used to work over there.

The difference of gameplay from gw2 paintrain to eso ball is minimal. People had lots of opportunites to make their experiences in other games. So just because they had enough of balling up in other games and approached eso differently (more small scalish) doesn`t mean, they don`t know exactly what they are talking about.

I think fengrush does. You can be an expert in ball group play without joining a group ever in ESO. Because, as crown pointed out, in the end it doesn`t matter how the main ae damage ability is called or how the main grp cleanse is called. It`s more about specific roles, coordination and maybe disciplin than individual abilities. Take any successful large group from gw2 to eso, they will adapt in very short time, because they don`t have to bother so much with ability balance. You take the best ae dmg, the best ae cleanse, the best ae heal, find a good ratio for your role spread and you are good to go.

PvP (smallscale, solo) is different, more complex. So it makes sense to talk about individual abilities more than group meta. Because that group meta HAS to use very streamlined builds anyways.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Sypher wrote: »

Here's the episode on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D4FGw_ro1o

I want to thank you guys for taking the time to produce quality content, please keep it up.

Apart from the fact that different perspectives will lead to disagreement in some aspects, there is one point which is really bothering me:

Whenever Sypher is involved I feel, like it becomes automatically very centered around magicka dk. Look, I played stam sorc since prerelease, when it was really ***. Of course, from time to time I complained a bit, but I kept going and enjoyed it despite being subpar at least.

I think stam sorc was for 18 months in a far worse spot than mag dk is now. There was no outcry, no demands to be the god of the battlefield, quite the opposite. Check the few old threads on stam sorc, you can find a lot of (former) mag dks over there stating:"just go magicka, there`s no right to have everything handed to you, to be equal!"

I think your bias is getting the better of you, Sypher. I mean were was your shows demanding stam sorc to become competetive? Magicka DK is on your agenda, because you play it. Such bias, in my very humble opinion (you do a great job producing the series), has no place in that show.

The times I heared you guys screaming "but....magicka dk" is in no relation to its importance for the health of PvP.

I really prefer Lefty`s approach on this. He seems to be a bit more able to put his personal bias aside and argue from a neutral perspective.

No bad feelings, it just stood out to me.

xaraan · October 2015

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Don't act like you aren't someone expecting your opinion not to be heard from zos, you even said you wish they were more involved with you guys. So yeah, people that play in other parts of the game that aren't 1vX are going to be concerned about someone's comments on combat when it comes from a more narrow perspective. Did you talk about dueling? You talk about a lot of skills from a 1v1 perspective - which is needed, but is not the total.

Maybe I'm wrong and you are capping flags with groups to take keeps and running scrolls back and I'm not seeing it. If so, my bad.

Latency Effects everyone - but if you are blaming it on a 24 man "ball" group, then you aren't helping anyone. Because that one group isn't what's causing the issue, you are just assuming it is. If it is, then how have I been in several fights bigger than that without lag? So yes, I agree the zerg mentality effects the lag, but when you guys start narrowing down on specifics and talking about changes devs need to make, SPECIFICS MATTER.

And no, if you share your opinion and expect people to just nod blindly in agreement, then you are in the wrong place. Many will gladly share our opinions about your opinion, we won't let it be.

Don't agree with the premise that you have to participate in capping keeps and running scrolls to provide feedback to Cyrodiil AvA.

This, especially now. I haven't really led my group to take keeps or scrolls since 1.5, but would like to. The best we could do is cut reinforcements, take outposts or save a friendly siege when they're in trouble. I would expect I people would listen to me more rather than less when I can not do what I want to do anymore.

I think my point was more about running in group play (as in more than just playing with one or two of your friends in a 4 man or less group) consistently than actually having to cap flags. I'd think most get that, but maybe not, my bad. My point was that they run in AvA group play about as much as I run around Cyro or IC solo looking for tiny fights - both sides have done their share of both, but I'm smart enough to realize they'd speak more thoroughly on those small scale combat fights than I would, the reverse doesn't seem to be happening. They all think that their existing knowledge is enough to make them experts in all types of PvP combat (or it comes off that way) and some take issue with that - especially when they make statements here or there that are completely off.

It's why I used the zos example in my earlier post. We all say "zos doesn't play their game" but we've seen them play it on streams all the time - so they literally do play the game. But there is a difference in the amount of experience and depth of knowledge when you only play something occasionally. Not once have they mentioned the biggest thing effecting zerg balls is the new battle spirit - that change gave numbers strength more than AoE caps or any other thing, but it seem like only groups that fight other groups have noticed the real effect it's had on the game. (Though again, they should get rid of AoE caps).

I think you are forgetting one important point: ESO is not the first AvA game. Most PvPers who came to ESO did at least try GW2 or WAR before. How was that american self marketing mass pvp guild called again, that produced a lot of the first PvP quality vids in beta? Can`t remember, but the first thing they tried was to import the GW2 paintrain meta to ESO. Because that`s what used to work over there.

The difference of gameplay from gw2 paintrain to eso ball is minimal. People had lots of opportunites to make their experiences in other games. So just because they had enough of balling up in other games and approached eso differently (more small scalish) doesn`t mean, they don`t know exactly what they are talking about.

I think fengrush does. You can be an expert in ball group play without joining a group ever in ESO. Because, as crown pointed out, in the end it doesn`t matter how the main ae damage ability is called or how the main grp cleanse is called. It`s more about specific roles, coordination and maybe disciplin than individual abilities. Take any successful large group from gw2 to eso, they will adapt in very short time, because they don`t have to bother so much with ability balance. You take the best ae dmg, the best ae cleanse, the best ae heal, find a good ratio for your role spread and you are good to go.

PvP (smallscale, solo) is different, more complex. So it makes sense to talk about individual abilities more than group meta. Because that group meta HAS to use very streamlined builds anyways.

I'd say that assumption that b/c they know the game well means they know it all as well as they know the part they play is what I take issue with. They do know the game very well. But I've sat here and watched them make completely inaccurate statements while using groups as an example that shows me they don't know other parts of it as well as they know their own part. Not that that means they know nothing. BUT when you start talking about actually changing the game, giving feedback, etc. Then those small details and considerations that you only see with experience matter a lot more than when you are just gabbing about something. So no, I don't think you can be "an expert" in ball groups without running in them at all and they've demonstrated that. Again, let's not take my comment to the extreme and assume that because I say they aren't experts means they know nothing and are wrong on everything. (Even Feng said last night that SOBs like me that were giving him crap here agreed with him about stuff like AoE cap removal and such - so we don't think they are completely wrong about it all).

As for their guests. I don't agree with all of what Crown had to say about groups either, or at least the way he said it. For example when he was saying something about guys coming into his group with Sypher's build and him saying gtfo with your gank build and the panelists were then saying "Sypher should be someone valuable to any group" - they weren't hearing what he was actually saying. The problem isn't with Sypher's build or Sypher the individual being in a group (pretty sure he'd be welcome to any group and they wouldn't tell him how to build his character) - it's with guys that are less experienced just running someone's pre-designed cookie cutter build. That player isn't going to be Sypher. Someone on the skill level of the panelists would be perfect in a group as is. We have several really amazing players that run non-cookie cutter group builds. The issue is the player, you need someone to know what they are doing without being told and there are less of those around than there used to be. Though there are usually changes any player will need to make when running with a group vs running solo or small man, but a good player will know to make those changes and won't need someone to tell them not to run a gank build or whatever build they've looked up.

OrphanHelgen · October 2015

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Here's the episode on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D4FGw_ro1o

I want to thank you guys for taking the time to produce quality content, please keep it up.

Apart from the fact that different perspectives will lead to disagreement in some aspects, there is one point which is really bothering me:

Whenever Sypher is involved I feel, like it becomes automatically very centered around magicka dk. Look, I played stam sorc since prerelease, when it was really ***. Of course, from time to time I complained a bit, but I kept going and enjoyed it despite being subpar at least.

I think stam sorc was for 18 months in a far worse spot than mag dk is now. There was no outcry, no demands to be the god of the battlefield, quite the opposite. Check the few old threads on stam sorc, you can find a lot of (former) mag dks over there stating:"just go magicka, there`s no right to have everything handed to you, to be equal!"

I think your bias is getting the better of you, Sypher. I mean were was your shows demanding stam sorc to become competetive? Magicka DK is on your agenda, because you play it. Such bias, in my very humble opinion (you do a great job producing the series), has no place in that show.

The times I heared you guys screaming "but....magicka dk" is in no relation to its importance for the health of PvP.

I really prefer Lefty`s approach on this. He seems to be a bit more able to put his personal bias aside and argue from a neutral perspective.

No bad feelings, it just stood out to me.

I understand you. I have played a stam DK since 1,5. Its not fun anymore now when people say its strong

hehe

Stikato · October 2015

Thanks again guys for addressing the real problems facing pvp. It's unfortunate that some people are so married to their playstyle that they will attack any perceived threat to it.

Population is declining, so this "meta" is just not getting the job done for a number of reasons. Something has to change. And all I know is every time me and my friends encounter a ball group, after 20 minutes of lag and BS, we go something else.

This didn't happen when large groups were split up a little bit, because with positioning and timing we could still nibble kills off the edges of the battlefield. In fact, that was our specialty.

Most of all, I feel like speaking up on this is a frustrating waste of time now, and that makes me appreciate the effort even more. Thank you.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Don't act like you aren't someone expecting your opinion not to be heard from zos, you even said you wish they were more involved with you guys. So yeah, people that play in other parts of the game that aren't 1vX are going to be concerned about someone's comments on combat when it comes from a more narrow perspective. Did you talk about dueling? You talk about a lot of skills from a 1v1 perspective - which is needed, but is not the total.

Maybe I'm wrong and you are capping flags with groups to take keeps and running scrolls back and I'm not seeing it. If so, my bad.

Latency Effects everyone - but if you are blaming it on a 24 man "ball" group, then you aren't helping anyone. Because that one group isn't what's causing the issue, you are just assuming it is. If it is, then how have I been in several fights bigger than that without lag? So yes, I agree the zerg mentality effects the lag, but when you guys start narrowing down on specifics and talking about changes devs need to make, SPECIFICS MATTER.

And no, if you share your opinion and expect people to just nod blindly in agreement, then you are in the wrong place. Many will gladly share our opinions about your opinion, we won't let it be.

Don't agree with the premise that you have to participate in capping keeps and running scrolls to provide feedback to Cyrodiil AvA.

This, especially now. I haven't really led my group to take keeps or scrolls since 1.5, but would like to. The best we could do is cut reinforcements, take outposts or save a friendly siege when they're in trouble. I would expect I people would listen to me more rather than less when I can not do what I want to do anymore.

I think my point was more about running in group play (as in more than just playing with one or two of your friends in a 4 man or less group) consistently than actually having to cap flags. I'd think most get that, but maybe not, my bad. My point was that they run in AvA group play about as much as I run around Cyro or IC solo looking for tiny fights - both sides have done their share of both, but I'm smart enough to realize they'd speak more thoroughly on those small scale combat fights than I would, the reverse doesn't seem to be happening. They all think that their existing knowledge is enough to make them experts in all types of PvP combat (or it comes off that way) and some take issue with that - especially when they make statements here or there that are completely off.

It's why I used the zos example in my earlier post. We all say "zos doesn't play their game" but we've seen them play it on streams all the time - so they literally do play the game. But there is a difference in the amount of experience and depth of knowledge when you only play something occasionally. Not once have they mentioned the biggest thing effecting zerg balls is the new battle spirit - that change gave numbers strength more than AoE caps or any other thing, but it seem like only groups that fight other groups have noticed the real effect it's had on the game. (Though again, they should get rid of AoE caps).

I think you are forgetting one important point: ESO is not the first AvA game. Most PvPers who came to ESO did at least try GW2 or WAR before. How was that american self marketing mass pvp guild called again, that produced a lot of the first PvP quality vids in beta? Can`t remember, but the first thing they tried was to import the GW2 paintrain meta to ESO. Because that`s what used to work over there.

The difference of gameplay from gw2 paintrain to eso ball is minimal. People had lots of opportunites to make their experiences in other games. So just because they had enough of balling up in other games and approached eso differently (more small scalish) doesn`t mean, they don`t know exactly what they are talking about.

I think fengrush does. You can be an expert in ball group play without joining a group ever in ESO. Because, as crown pointed out, in the end it doesn`t matter how the main ae damage ability is called or how the main grp cleanse is called. It`s more about specific roles, coordination and maybe disciplin than individual abilities. Take any successful large group from gw2 to eso, they will adapt in very short time, because they don`t have to bother so much with ability balance. You take the best ae dmg, the best ae cleanse, the best ae heal, find a good ratio for your role spread and you are good to go.

PvP (smallscale, solo) is different, more complex. So it makes sense to talk about individual abilities more than group meta. Because that group meta HAS to use very streamlined builds anyways.

I'd say that assumption that b/c they know the game well means they know it all as well as they know the part they play is what I take issue with. They do know the game very well. But I've sat here and watched them make completely inaccurate statements while using groups as an example that shows me they don't know other parts of it as well as they know their own part. Not that that means they know nothing. BUT when you start talking about actually changing the game, giving feedback, etc. Then those small details and considerations that you only see with experience matter a lot more than when you are just gabbing about something. So no, I don't think you can be "an expert" in ball groups without running in them at all and they've demonstrated that. Again, let's not take my comment to the extreme and assume that because I say they aren't experts means they know nothing and are wrong on everything. (Even Feng said last night that SOBs like me that were giving him crap here agreed with him about stuff like AoE cap removal and such - so we don't think they are completely wrong about it all).

As for their guests. I don't agree with all of what Crown had to say about groups either, or at least the way he said it. For example when he was saying something about guys coming into his group with Sypher's build and him saying gtfo with your gank build and the panelists were then saying "Sypher should be someone valuable to any group" - they weren't hearing what he was actually saying. The problem isn't with Sypher's build or Sypher the individual being in a group (pretty sure he'd be welcome to any group and they wouldn't tell him how to build his character) - it's with guys that are less experienced just running someone's pre-designed cookie cutter build. That player isn't going to be Sypher. Someone on the skill level of the panelists would be perfect in a group as is. We have several really amazing players that run non-cookie cutter group builds. The issue is the player, you need someone to know what they are doing without being told and there are less of those around than there used to be. Though there are usually changes any player will need to make when running with a group vs running solo or small man, but a good player will know to make those changes and won't need someone to tell them not to run a gank build or whatever build they've looked up.

I just can`t agree regarding the large grp stuff. Take the better large groups lead and 23 of their players today from another game to eso. Give them gear and builds. They will rock the game by tomorrow. Just because of how lead heavy large scale is. If the players know their roles, not even their classes, just their roles and the lead did some very basic research, they will stomp anything but the most experienced eso groups.

Now take the most experienced dueler or smallscaler from another game to ESO. Give him gear and builds. He would need far more time to adapt, just because the complexity of skill balance factors in on a completely different scale.

Joy_Division · October 2015

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Here's the episode on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D4FGw_ro1o

I want to thank you guys for taking the time to produce quality content, please keep it up.

Apart from the fact that different perspectives will lead to disagreement in some aspects, there is one point which is really bothering me:

Whenever Sypher is involved I feel, like it becomes automatically very centered around magicka dk. Look, I played stam sorc since prerelease, when it was really ***. Of course, from time to time I complained a bit, but I kept going and enjoyed it despite being subpar at least.

I think stam sorc was for 18 months in a far worse spot than mag dk is now. There was no outcry, no demands to be the god of the battlefield, quite the opposite. Check the few old threads on stam sorc, you can find a lot of (former) mag dks over there stating:"just go magicka, there`s no right to have everything handed to you, to be equal!"

I think your bias is getting the better of you, Sypher. I mean were was your shows demanding stam sorc to become competetive? Magicka DK is on your agenda, because you play it. Such bias, in my very humble opinion (you do a great job producing the series), has no place in that show.

The times I heared you guys screaming "but....magicka dk" is in no relation to its importance for the health of PvP.

I really prefer Lefty`s approach on this. He seems to be a bit more able to put his personal bias aside and argue from a neutral perspective.

No bad feelings, it just stood out to me.

I disagree. Sorcerers as a whole, and specifically the one who want to use stamina, have had a very active voice in this community for a long, long time. Before 1.6 came around, sorcerers were what DKs are now today when it came to the forums because they were, accurately I believed, just called negate monkeys. I played a sorcerer and took part in those discussions.

I have found Sypher to be more than a fair host. He does not play templars and have correctly identified that class's issues. He does not like or partake in the ball-group meta, but stated repeatedly that large groups have a place and a role in Cyrodiil and wants changes that will make playing in all ways competitive and fun.

Of course we all have our biases and as Sypher's first class and presumably first love was magicka DK, I expect and want him to raise the issues that plague that class precisely because he has valuable insight and experience in that area. As long as he is mindful there are other issues and gives other panelists a voice in expressing them and is objective in discussing them, which I think he has been, then all is good.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Here's the episode on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D4FGw_ro1o

I want to thank you guys for taking the time to produce quality content, please keep it up.

Apart from the fact that different perspectives will lead to disagreement in some aspects, there is one point which is really bothering me:

Whenever Sypher is involved I feel, like it becomes automatically very centered around magicka dk. Look, I played stam sorc since prerelease, when it was really ***. Of course, from time to time I complained a bit, but I kept going and enjoyed it despite being subpar at least.

I think stam sorc was for 18 months in a far worse spot than mag dk is now. There was no outcry, no demands to be the god of the battlefield, quite the opposite. Check the few old threads on stam sorc, you can find a lot of (former) mag dks over there stating:"just go magicka, there`s no right to have everything handed to you, to be equal!"

I think your bias is getting the better of you, Sypher. I mean were was your shows demanding stam sorc to become competetive? Magicka DK is on your agenda, because you play it. Such bias, in my very humble opinion (you do a great job producing the series), has no place in that show.

The times I heared you guys screaming "but....magicka dk" is in no relation to its importance for the health of PvP.

I really prefer Lefty`s approach on this. He seems to be a bit more able to put his personal bias aside and argue from a neutral perspective.

No bad feelings, it just stood out to me.

I disagree. Sorcerers as a whole, and specifically the one who want to use stamina, have had a very active voice in this community for a long, long time. Before 1.6 came around, sorcerers were what DKs are now today when it came to the forums because they were, accurately I believed, just called negate monkeys. I played a sorcerer and took part in those discussions.

I have found Sypher to be more than a fair host. He does not play templars and have correctly identified that class's issues. He does not like or partake in the ball-group meta, but stated repeatedly that large groups have a place and a role in Cyrodiil and wants changes that will make playing in all ways competitive and fun.

Of course we all have our biases and as Sypher's first class and presumably first love was magicka DK, I expect and want him to raise the issues that plague that class precisely because he has valuable insight and experience in that area. As long as he is mindful there are other issues and gives other panelists a voice in expressing them and is objective in discussing them, which I think he has been, then all is good.

I just think it has no place in a setting dedicated to discuss the health of PvP and give insights that are aimed at improving gameplay for PvPers in general. Magicka DK is such a minor issue in comparison to many other points, it just doesnt deserve such a platform - in comparison.

I`d had no problem with an episode dedicated entirely to magicka dk, just do it seperately and not under the umbrella of this series. I would chose not to watch, because it wouldn`t affect me or interest me. I would watch a show where shortcomings of all classes are discussed equally.

It reminds me having a c-level strategy meeting discussing overall business scope and one guy repeatedly coming up with:"guys, the coffee machine in our department is still broken! Can we please talk about the coffee machine now..."

Ishammael · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Here's the episode on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D4FGw_ro1o

I want to thank you guys for taking the time to produce quality content, please keep it up.

Apart from the fact that different perspectives will lead to disagreement in some aspects, there is one point which is really bothering me:

Whenever Sypher is involved I feel, like it becomes automatically very centered around magicka dk. Look, I played stam sorc since prerelease, when it was really ***. Of course, from time to time I complained a bit, but I kept going and enjoyed it despite being subpar at least.

I think stam sorc was for 18 months in a far worse spot than mag dk is now. There was no outcry, no demands to be the god of the battlefield, quite the opposite. Check the few old threads on stam sorc, you can find a lot of (former) mag dks over there stating:"just go magicka, there`s no right to have everything handed to you, to be equal!"

I think your bias is getting the better of you, Sypher. I mean were was your shows demanding stam sorc to become competetive? Magicka DK is on your agenda, because you play it. Such bias, in my very humble opinion (you do a great job producing the series), has no place in that show.

The times I heared you guys screaming "but....magicka dk" is in no relation to its importance for the health of PvP.

I really prefer Lefty`s approach on this. He seems to be a bit more able to put his personal bias aside and argue from a neutral perspective.

No bad feelings, it just stood out to me.

I disagree. Sorcerers as a whole, and specifically the one who want to use stamina, have had a very active voice in this community for a long, long time. Before 1.6 came around, sorcerers were what DKs are now today when it came to the forums because they were, accurately I believed, just called negate monkeys. I played a sorcerer and took part in those discussions.

I have found Sypher to be more than a fair host. He does not play templars and have correctly identified that class's issues. He does not like or partake in the ball-group meta, but stated repeatedly that large groups have a place and a role in Cyrodiil and wants changes that will make playing in all ways competitive and fun.

Of course we all have our biases and as Sypher's first class and presumably first love was magicka DK, I expect and want him to raise the issues that plague that class precisely because he has valuable insight and experience in that area. As long as he is mindful there are other issues and gives other panelists a voice in expressing them and is objective in discussing them, which I think he has been, then all is good.

Agreed -- Sypher has historically been very fair.

As an overarching point: past imbalance is no excuse for current imbalance.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Here's the episode on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D4FGw_ro1o

I want to thank you guys for taking the time to produce quality content, please keep it up.

Apart from the fact that different perspectives will lead to disagreement in some aspects, there is one point which is really bothering me:

Whenever Sypher is involved I feel, like it becomes automatically very centered around magicka dk. Look, I played stam sorc since prerelease, when it was really ***. Of course, from time to time I complained a bit, but I kept going and enjoyed it despite being subpar at least.

I think stam sorc was for 18 months in a far worse spot than mag dk is now. There was no outcry, no demands to be the god of the battlefield, quite the opposite. Check the few old threads on stam sorc, you can find a lot of (former) mag dks over there stating:"just go magicka, there`s no right to have everything handed to you, to be equal!"

I think your bias is getting the better of you, Sypher. I mean were was your shows demanding stam sorc to become competetive? Magicka DK is on your agenda, because you play it. Such bias, in my very humble opinion (you do a great job producing the series), has no place in that show.

The times I heared you guys screaming "but....magicka dk" is in no relation to its importance for the health of PvP.

I really prefer Lefty`s approach on this. He seems to be a bit more able to put his personal bias aside and argue from a neutral perspective.

No bad feelings, it just stood out to me.

I disagree. Sorcerers as a whole, and specifically the one who want to use stamina, have had a very active voice in this community for a long, long time. Before 1.6 came around, sorcerers were what DKs are now today when it came to the forums because they were, accurately I believed, just called negate monkeys. I played a sorcerer and took part in those discussions.

I have found Sypher to be more than a fair host. He does not play templars and have correctly identified that class's issues. He does not like or partake in the ball-group meta, but stated repeatedly that large groups have a place and a role in Cyrodiil and wants changes that will make playing in all ways competitive and fun.

Of course we all have our biases and as Sypher's first class and presumably first love was magicka DK, I expect and want him to raise the issues that plague that class precisely because he has valuable insight and experience in that area. As long as he is mindful there are other issues and gives other panelists a voice in expressing them and is objective in discussing them, which I think he has been, then all is good.

Agreed -- Sypher has historically been very fair.

As an overarching point: past imbalance is no excuse for current imbalance.

I think you misunderstood me. Please refer to the post above yours.

The coffee machine IS not working as intended. My personal coffee machine (stam sorc) wouldve no place in this as well. There is a place to discuss those issues, just not in such a high priority scenario.

Derra · October 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

You should apply that to yourself when you go to talk about AvA. If you want to duel, again, more power to you, but dueling isn't going to take keeps, crown emps, run scrolls - which is what the game is built for. Not saying small groups or singles don't or should not have a use or place, at all (I prefer running in a smaller group than we've had to lately) but if you always run 4 men or smaller, then you really aren't going to know about all the little things of group fighting.

Did we talk about dueling? I don't even duel this patch. I play in Cyrodiil, I play in IC just like everyone else. If I want to voice my opinion about the game from my perspective and if people care enough to listen then let it be.

Latency affects everyone, AOE caps affect everyone, the state of PvP affects everyone. I've played the game long enough to at least have some knowledge to form an opinion on certain aspects of the game.

If you don't agree with my opinions that's completely up to you, but my word shouldn't be dismissed because I don't play in large groups or "AvA"

I think that was his point and the majority of the pvp playerbase. Or as you 4 call it, the zerg balls. This game was designed for large scale pvp. Every time someone tries to give can opinion that plays with large groups they get insulted with services, lacks skill hitting two buttons, etc.

So their opinions get dismissed. Just like in this podcast.

Large scale pvp has nothing do to with grpsize normally.

The ballgrps you have in eso are a result of shady gamemechanics providing benefits for stacking up as tight as possible and have nothing to do with largescale pvp in general imho.

Though you are correct that the game mechanics have made ballgroups pop up that run tighter, refuse to spread out at all, etc. It didn't cause them and group play was still in pvp (or ball group play, whatever you wanna call it) back when the "game was good" according to the panelists. I've said this a million times, but the guild I ran with ran as a group, moved as a group, coordinated ultimates, responded to enemy movements - together, moving as a unit. Now, when you see some good groups doing this in giant battles and prospering others will try it - and with the current mechanics it's a lot easier to try and pull off now because they've really screwed up the balance between small and large group play.

I can't speak for others, but myself - I have been taking issue with Fengrush's example in his stream last Tues. where our group of twenty some guys were fighting fifty to sixty blues. Funny to watch him make all these points about how we wouldn't be doing that in the old days when that is EXACTLY what we did in the old days (though sometimes even in a smaller group).

No matter what changes get made, a large group of good players that stays in the AoE's of each others heals and even attacks and moves as a unit, using their strength together is always going to perform well against a broken zerg of just numbers. I agree with the panelists that it's a shame the last patch made numbers matter so much more than skill (which is why we tend to run in groups double the size of what we used to run in), but to think numbers - especially numbers working together as a smart unit - won't still occur, I simply wanted to point out all along that it still will and always has (even from pre-launch).

You´re absolutely right with everything you´re writing. I´ve bolded the most important part. It´s the only issue i have with balance for large grps at the moment.
Everything else is performance related in some way and while large grps do play a part in some what - in the end that one is on ZOS and not on the large grp players.

Very good post! Cheers to you

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Don't act like you aren't someone expecting your opinion not to be heard from zos, you even said you wish they were more involved with you guys. So yeah, people that play in other parts of the game that aren't 1vX are going to be concerned about someone's comments on combat when it comes from a more narrow perspective. Did you talk about dueling? You talk about a lot of skills from a 1v1 perspective - which is needed, but is not the total.

Maybe I'm wrong and you are capping flags with groups to take keeps and running scrolls back and I'm not seeing it. If so, my bad.

Latency Effects everyone - but if you are blaming it on a 24 man "ball" group, then you aren't helping anyone. Because that one group isn't what's causing the issue, you are just assuming it is. If it is, then how have I been in several fights bigger than that without lag? So yes, I agree the zerg mentality effects the lag, but when you guys start narrowing down on specifics and talking about changes devs need to make, SPECIFICS MATTER.

And no, if you share your opinion and expect people to just nod blindly in agreement, then you are in the wrong place. Many will gladly share our opinions about your opinion, we won't let it be.

Don't agree with the premise that you have to participate in capping keeps and running scrolls to provide feedback to Cyrodiil AvA.

This, especially now. I haven't really led my group to take keeps or scrolls since 1.5, but would like to. The best we could do is cut reinforcements, take outposts or save a friendly siege when they're in trouble. I would expect I people would listen to me more rather than less when I can not do what I want to do anymore.

I think my point was more about running in group play (as in more than just playing with one or two of your friends in a 4 man or less group) consistently than actually having to cap flags. I'd think most get that, but maybe not, my bad. My point was that they run in AvA group play about as much as I run around Cyro or IC solo looking for tiny fights - both sides have done their share of both, but I'm smart enough to realize they'd speak more thoroughly on those small scale combat fights than I would, the reverse doesn't seem to be happening. They all think that their existing knowledge is enough to make them experts in all types of PvP combat (or it comes off that way) and some take issue with that - especially when they make statements here or there that are completely off.

It's why I used the zos example in my earlier post. We all say "zos doesn't play their game" but we've seen them play it on streams all the time - so they literally do play the game. But there is a difference in the amount of experience and depth of knowledge when you only play something occasionally. Not once have they mentioned the biggest thing effecting zerg balls is the new battle spirit - that change gave numbers strength more than AoE caps or any other thing, but it seem like only groups that fight other groups have noticed the real effect it's had on the game. (Though again, they should get rid of AoE caps).

I think you are forgetting one important point: ESO is not the first AvA game. Most PvPers who came to ESO did at least try GW2 or WAR before. How was that american self marketing mass pvp guild called again, that produced a lot of the first PvP quality vids in beta? Can`t remember, but the first thing they tried was to import the GW2 paintrain meta to ESO. Because that`s what used to work over there.

The difference of gameplay from gw2 paintrain to eso ball is minimal. People had lots of opportunites to make their experiences in other games. So just because they had enough of balling up in other games and approached eso differently (more small scalish) doesn`t mean, they don`t know exactly what they are talking about.

I think fengrush does. You can be an expert in ball group play without joining a group ever in ESO. Because, as crown pointed out, in the end it doesn`t matter how the main ae damage ability is called or how the main grp cleanse is called. It`s more about specific roles, coordination and maybe disciplin than individual abilities. Take any successful large group from gw2 to eso, they will adapt in very short time, because they don`t have to bother so much with ability balance. You take the best ae dmg, the best ae cleanse, the best ae heal, find a good ratio for your role spread and you are good to go.

PvP (smallscale, solo) is different, more complex. So it makes sense to talk about individual abilities more than group meta. Because that group meta HAS to use very streamlined builds anyways.

I'd say that assumption that b/c they know the game well means they know it all as well as they know the part they play is what I take issue with. They do know the game very well. But I've sat here and watched them make completely inaccurate statements while using groups as an example that shows me they don't know other parts of it as well as they know their own part. Not that that means they know nothing. BUT when you start talking about actually changing the game, giving feedback, etc. Then those small details and considerations that you only see with experience matter a lot more than when you are just gabbing about something. So no, I don't think you can be "an expert" in ball groups without running in them at all and they've demonstrated that. Again, let's not take my comment to the extreme and assume that because I say they aren't experts means they know nothing and are wrong on everything. (Even Feng said last night that SOBs like me that were giving him crap here agreed with him about stuff like AoE cap removal and such - so we don't think they are completely wrong about it all).

As for their guests. I don't agree with all of what Crown had to say about groups either, or at least the way he said it. For example when he was saying something about guys coming into his group with Sypher's build and him saying gtfo with your gank build and the panelists were then saying "Sypher should be someone valuable to any group" - they weren't hearing what he was actually saying. The problem isn't with Sypher's build or Sypher the individual being in a group (pretty sure he'd be welcome to any group and they wouldn't tell him how to build his character) - it's with guys that are less experienced just running someone's pre-designed cookie cutter build. That player isn't going to be Sypher. Someone on the skill level of the panelists would be perfect in a group as is. We have several really amazing players that run non-cookie cutter group builds. The issue is the player, you need someone to know what they are doing without being told and there are less of those around than there used to be. Though there are usually changes any player will need to make when running with a group vs running solo or small man, but a good player will know to make those changes and won't need someone to tell them not to run a gank build or whatever build they've looked up.

I just can`t agree regarding the large grp stuff. Take the better large groups lead and 23 of their players today from another game to eso. Give them gear and builds. They will rock the game by tomorrow. Just because of how lead heavy large scale is. If the players know their roles, not even their classes, just their roles and the lead did some very basic research, they will stomp anything but the most experienced eso groups.

Now take the most experienced dueler or smallscaler from another game to ESO. Give him gear and builds. He would need far more time to adapt, just because the complexity of skill balance factors in on a completely different scale.

I think it´s really hard to tell who´s correct here because grpplay is entirely different from solo play.

Solo play is about knowing the vast majority of builds you might encounter. Knowing how to counter them or when to flee. Then it´s about musclememory and practice. You have to act without overthinking in every basic situation to be able to make plans while fighting. Solo is to some extend mechanical talent.

The larger the grp gets the less important the solo play abilities of members become (to some extend). It´s about coodination. Good leadership. Communication and the most imporatant thing of a good grp player is the ability to put ego aside. With basic mechanics good grpplay is about social skill.

This explains why you could convert success of large grps to different games fast while you can´t with solo skill. The social component is not directed by the game. Mechanics and knowledge is gamebased.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Solo play is about knowing the vast majority of builds you might encounter. Knowing how to counter them or when to flee. Then it´s about musclememory and practice. You have to act without overthinking in every basic situation to be able to make plans while fighting. Solo is to some extend mechanical talent.

The larger the grp gets the less important the solo play abilities of members become (to some extend). It´s about coodination. Good leadership. Communication and the most imporatant thing of a good grp player is the ability to put ego aside. With basic mechanics good grpplay is about social skill.

This explains why you could convert success of large grps to different games fast while you can´t with solo skill. The social component is not directed by the game. Mechanics and knowledge is gamebased.

Isn`t that exactly what I said in different wording? I agree

Derra · October 2015

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Solo play is about knowing the vast majority of builds you might encounter. Knowing how to counter them or when to flee. Then it´s about musclememory and practice. You have to act without overthinking in every basic situation to be able to make plans while fighting. Solo is to some extend mechanical talent.

The larger the grp gets the less important the solo play abilities of members become (to some extend). It´s about coodination. Good leadership. Communication and the most imporatant thing of a good grp player is the ability to put ego aside. With basic mechanics good grpplay is about social skill.

This explains why you could convert success of large grps to different games fast while you can´t with solo skill. The social component is not directed by the game. Mechanics and knowledge is gamebased.

Isn`t that exactly what I said in different wording? I agree

Probably yes. It´s hard to draw lines though and it´s far harder to find really good grp players than it is to find a good solo player who sort of functions in a grp setting.
I think i just wanted to point out successful grping is an achievement in itself.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Solo play is about knowing the vast majority of builds you might encounter. Knowing how to counter them or when to flee. Then it´s about musclememory and practice. You have to act without overthinking in every basic situation to be able to make plans while fighting. Solo is to some extend mechanical talent.

The larger the grp gets the less important the solo play abilities of members become (to some extend). It´s about coodination. Good leadership. Communication and the most imporatant thing of a good grp player is the ability to put ego aside. With basic mechanics good grpplay is about social skill.

This explains why you could convert success of large grps to different games fast while you can´t with solo skill. The social component is not directed by the game. Mechanics and knowledge is gamebased.

Isn`t that exactly what I said in different wording? I agree

Probably yes. It´s hard to draw lines though and it´s far harder to find really good grp players than it is to find a good solo player who sort of functions in a grp setting.
I think i just wanted to point out successful grping is an achievement in itself.

Not so sure about that. I recruited only the best solo players in gw2 for buka. Pretty much 90% adapted very easily into a smallgrp setting. But it`s maybe not a good sample size, just personal experience.