PTS Feedback - Combat has become uninteresting and far less enjoyable

Rune_Relic · August 2015

/popcorn

themdogesbite · August 2015

My feelings after playing PTS is that id rather watch paint dry then deal with this mind numbing combat, every patch for a long time have mostly been benefiting to zergs and large groups. 1.6 was a failure and i have a feeling that 1.7 will be too.

I do hope im wrong.

Asmael · August 2015

When you're in a zerg, you (almost) never need to dodge roll / block, but when you're the one getting zerged...

Attempting to convince me that IC will not make zergs stronger would be an exercise in futility.

xylena · August 2015

not only is perma block still happening, LIGHT ARMOR PERMABLOCK is still happening

the blocking stam nerf has solved nothing, frustrated inexperienced pve tanks, and rewarded pvp 1 button spammers

briandivisionb16_ESO · August 2015

To summarize:

What we are getting is a revamp of the game.

And what we needed was just fixes to perma-dodgeroll, perma-teleport, nirnhorned bug, skills hitting cloak + dodgeroll.
And a slightly higher TTK.

BUT
I must say it is way too early for anyone to cry foul!
Give it 8 weeks!

Rune_Relic · August 2015

At the end of the day, the most important part for 1.7 for me is stability and lag now.
No doubt we will have to wait for balance pass no. 3,004,544,333....where ZOS finally cracks and understands the concept of balance.
/shrugs
suck it up everyone

I do hope we don't get to the stage where people get so fed up they just cant be bothered to respond anymore.
Many of you sounds like you are on the same page as me....but I really think there are two pages in existence.

Page 1....whack-a-mole.
This is the direction ZOS is currently going more and more.
Animation cancelling, macros, buff timer watching.
Its all about frantic button mashing + finger gymnastics or macros.
You are spending half you time distracted by watching buff timers expire than the actual opponent or the atcual game world.
Skill are completely imbalanced on cost/dps/hit value and everything is a pure DPS race.
Whoever can stack the buffs and the damage number an cram them into the shortest amount of time wins.

Page 2 ....tactical.
This was the initial game direction with the concept of rewarding perfect reactive timing that was dropped.
This has nothing to do with button spam in the slightest.
This is all about using the right skill at the right time...just as much as not using the wrong skill at the wrong time.
This was all about watching your opponent and reacting to them or forcing a reaction.
You are spending all your time watching the opponent within the game world and not buff timers.
This has every skill with a constant cost/dps/hit so that animation cancelling and macroes does not give you a free lunch and guaranteed kill.
There is no attack priority system in place or GCDs.
If you over commit with a high damage attack you are vulnerable....that's the whole idea. Risk vs Reward.
This also favours an 5 level modal system where each skill is a step up from the previous.
small damage / fast regen / fast movement / invulnerable/ short timer > big attack / no regen / slow movement / vulnerable / long timer / stun
small mitigation / fast regen / fast movement / invulnerable/ short timer > big mitigation / no regen / slow movement / vulnerable / long timer / stun immune
This means rather than button mashing 1-5 keys you are simply moving+mouse and switching to the appropriate mode either in anticipation of an attack or when preparing for a big attack or just biding time.
Do you want to be recovering resources at this moment ? [mode1]
Do you want to be moving fast with light attack and wittling down your opponent over time. [mode2]
Do you want to sneak up on someone and hit them with a big attack before combat begins (although the recource cost will be heavy for such high DPS) and will leave you with a much bigger whole to fill in, than your opponent at full resource.[mode5]
If someone is surprise attacked they can burn out the attackers resource long before they run out and punish them.[mode3/4]
There is no guaranteed wins here.

What we got
Page 2 is what I hoped for from ZOS at the beginning and all the signs were there.
I keep fantasising they will see the error of their ways and get back on track.
But I need to be realistic and just accept its a lost cause I think.
ZOS crumbled into the typical MMO whack-a-mole game plan instead.
What you are complaining about is what you are gonna get with this kind of game.

Master_Kas · August 2015

Agree on all points Ez.

Faulgor · August 2015

As someone who doesn't PvP a lot, I don't quite understand the problem.

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In my experience, in 1.6, defense was useless. Damage dealt was so high that during my defensive reaction to an alpha strike, my opponent would usually be able to kill me anyway. That is if I didn't already die after the alpha strike.
Now, in theory, high damage would make a defensive reaction more rewarding, instead of just taking the hit and spamming your own attack. But that only works if the defensive reaction actually counters the offensive action. The longer TTK in 1.7 at least gives me more opportunities to react.

A longer TTK was one of the most wanted changes, but apparently this has made it preferable to just take hits and ignore defensive play? Dodge roll spammers were one of the most annoying builds to many in 1.6, but apparently they was preferable to the current state?
I guess what I'm asking for here is some actual suggestions. Should defensive stamina-based actions be cheaper overall and damage increased again?

Draxys · August 2015

you're looking forward to it with trepidation? Try being a DK ='(

FriedEggSandwich · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

You guys seem to forget, that the changes to roll dodge and block were made, because there is this massive damage reduction in pvp. If they didn't change anything, it would be impossible to kill players with this damage reduction on top.

I think, many of us were quite satisfied with 1.6 and 1.7 is just boring and annoying. I want 1.6 back, because it was beautiful actually. Defense is strong, but 1 mistake could kill you. That's how it should be in my opinion and that's what I loved. Combat was exciting and rewarding. If you were skilled, you could take on a small group of less skilled players, because mistakes can kill you ,this is a beautiful concept and I want it to stay

This game is already plastic enough with too many lazy limitations in pvp. And 1.7 was a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. It definately has some good aspects. Only some though

I find myself agreeing with you again. 1.6 was nearly there; they just needed to fix exploits and bugs, and adjust damage ever so slightly to prevent 1-shots on anyone with at least 18k hp. What a waste of everybody's time and effort 1.7 has been.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

As someone who doesn't PvP a lot, I don't quite understand the problem.

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In my experience, in 1.6, defense was useless. Damage dealt was so high that during my defensive reaction to an alpha strike, my opponent would usually be able to kill me anyway. That is if I didn't already die after the alpha strike.
Now, in theory, high damage would make a defensive reaction more rewarding, instead of just taking the hit and spamming your own attack. But that only works if the defensive reaction actually counters the offensive action. The longer TTK in 1.7 at least gives me more opportunities to react.

A longer TTK was one of the most wanted changes, but apparently this has made it preferable to just take hits and ignore defensive play? Dodge roll spammers were one of the most annoying builds to many in 1.6, but apparently they was preferable to the current state?
I guess what I'm asking for here is some actual suggestions. Should defensive stamina-based actions be cheaper overall and damage increased again?

I look at it like a sports car.
If you cruise along that fuel gauge is going to be sitting pretty steady for a long time and get you 100s of miles.
If you hammer the pedal to the metal, the fuel gauge is going to visibly sink rapidly and not get you very far at all.

So it should be with DPS.
ie cost/dps/hit
The greater the damage you are doing over time the greater the resource cost.

This means burst builds are going to run out of resource quickly and be at a disadvantage resource wise for the lowered TTK
This means higher TTK builds will be much lighter on their resources and have good endurance.

Currently its just find the basic/skills/block or macro combo with the lowest cost/dps/hit..spam.. win.
Defending builds aren't animation cancelling..have a much higher cost/dps/hit ..and get heavily penalised cost wise for defending to boot.
Defensive builds aren't efficient.... they're prohibitive.

What it has also done is put a heavy spanner in the works of 100% block cancelling.... but killed everyone else off too defensively.

sadownik · August 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

This is not Zos fault. all the whining and complaining since launch has led us here. We asked for this crap now deal with it or leave like the rest of us.

Only thing bringing me back is if they suck it up and revert to 1.5 combat. Closest thing I saw to balance

BS thats what it is. Yes blame players that broke into Z. hq took over 100 people hostage and demanded that x be changed. Its managers job to know when and to what extent to listen to your customers.

olsborg · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

If someone goes to wrecking blow me, it is cheaper for me to let them hit me and break free, than it is for me to block it since I'm then given CC immunity. This isn't behavior that should be rewarded!

This, I mostly agreed with your entire writeup, but this in particular needs more attention. Thanks

contact.opiumb16_ESO · August 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

Combat is shittier on PTS, it would of been better to just add Soft Caps back in 1.6

This. AND put softcaps in CP buff. 20% max buff per item

RoxyPhoenix · August 2015

It seems to me that ZOS departments are not communicating with each other. All I see is a bad management. They gave us more TTK but at the same time they introduced new ways of ridiculously increase DPS. I mean whats the point of battle spirit if ppl can stack SPD/WD to over 5k. Sure, everyone wanted to have more time for reaction but with the nerfs of all key survivability components [dodge, bolt, block etc] there is no need for any reaction now, just spam dmg skills until you or ur opponent is dead. The only good thing coming out of this patch is the fix to well known exploits.

Faulgor · August 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

As someone who doesn't PvP a lot, I don't quite understand the problem.

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In my experience, in 1.6, defense was useless. Damage dealt was so high that during my defensive reaction to an alpha strike, my opponent would usually be able to kill me anyway. That is if I didn't already die after the alpha strike.
Now, in theory, high damage would make a defensive reaction more rewarding, instead of just taking the hit and spamming your own attack. But that only works if the defensive reaction actually counters the offensive action. The longer TTK in 1.7 at least gives me more opportunities to react.

A longer TTK was one of the most wanted changes, but apparently this has made it preferable to just take hits and ignore defensive play? Dodge roll spammers were one of the most annoying builds to many in 1.6, but apparently they was preferable to the current state?
I guess what I'm asking for here is some actual suggestions. Should defensive stamina-based actions be cheaper overall and damage increased again?

I look at it like a sports car.
If you cruise along that fuel gauge is going to be sitting pretty steady for a long time and get you 100s of miles.
If you hammer the pedal to the metal, the fuel gauge is going to visibly sink rapidly and not get you very far at all.

So it should be with DPS.
ie cost/dps/hit
The greater the damage you are doing over time the greater the resource cost.

This means burst builds are going to run out of resource quickly and be at a disadvantage resource wise for the lowered TTK
This means higher TTK builds will be much lighter on their resources and have good endurance.

Currently its just find the basic/skills/block or macro combo with the lowest cost/dps/hit..spam.. win.
Defending builds aren't animation cancelling..have a much higher cost/dps/hit ..and get heavily penalised cost wise for defending to boot.
Defensive builds aren't efficient.... they're prohibitive.

What it has also done is put a heavy spanner in the works of 100% block cancelling.... but killed everyone else off too defensively.

Okay, I can see that, but what's the proposed solution? Should the battle spirit effect be adjusted until we find a sweet spot where dedicated burst and resource builds are both viable?

aco5712 · August 2015

RoxyPhoenix wrote: »

The only good thing coming out of this patch is the fix to well known exploits.

really find it stupid that it took them months and months and a major patch to even be bothered to fix nirn, sharpened pen, mundus exploit and anything else...... if they had incrementally fixed these or hotfixed them, 1.7 might be completely different and might actually be a more enjoyable patch.

Bet if those exploits were detremental in pve, they would have jumped onto that like a pig into sh!t.

ToRelax · August 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

RoxyPhoenix wrote: »

The only good thing coming out of this patch is the fix to well known exploits.

really find it stupid that it took them months and months and a major patch to even be bothered to fix nirn, sharpened pen, mundus exploit and anything else...... if they had incrementally fixed these or hotfixed them, 1.7 might be completely different and might actually be a more enjoyable patch.

Bet if those exploits were detremental in pve, they would have jumped onto that like a pig into sh!t.

Last hotfix (can't quote):

We just completed a hotfix on all ESOTU megaservers. This patch hotfixed an NPC in the Hallin’s Stand (Bangkorai) Mages Guild that was attackable and should not have been.

You will not need to relog or download any patch for this to take effect.

Rescorla_ESO · August 2015

WolffenBloodseeker wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

ColtPython wrote: »

One situation in particular continued to occur until I quit the PTS (mad as hell) and went back to the live server. I would run into a Templar (this is not a dig on Templars but just painting the picture) who would begin jabbing. After the changes to block regeneration, I certainly cannot block this without putting a sure end to my stamina pool and then the next jabs will kill me. So I roll. Rolling of course activates a timer that will cause the next roll to be more expensive and so on. What does the Templar do? Well the attack is not affected by the same mechanics as rolling so they turn and jab again. I roll at a higher cost and put my self in a situation where the next roll is going to start really costing me. At this point my options are limited to fear or cloak and hide if I can. They just break fear and begin jabbing. Basically like the OP says "spam my damage abilities over and over and nothing else."

Yup. These are the guys who will take my entire stamina bar to kill. There are some damage abilities you almost *have* to block or dodge roll and jabs is one of them. Now, by doing the correct counter to these abilities you end up hurting yourself more than the person who was countered! It is counterintuitive and pretty infuriating. Everyone just starts spamming their damage abilities over and over and the variation and excitement in combat is removed.

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

And the sad thing about the whole stamina regen when blocking 'fix' is that there's still permablockers

I find myself instinctively blocking certain things, like a charge attack for example, thinking, good job, blocked that, only to realise I've just gimped myself doing it.

Exactly how I feel too.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Why not just limit the number of dodge rolls a player can do every few seconds instead of a blanked stam block dodge nerf?

I liked it the way it is in current live. People complain non-stop about how there is no skill in ESO. but catching a sorc who is trying to escape or shutting down a dodge roller is in itself skill. nerfing both of these abilities is lack of it.

Nerfing the defensive abilities only is just plain stupid.

People tell me "You could only bolt 6-7 times in 1.5, now you bolt 15 times that's stupid". Yes it is stupid, but in 1.5 if you charged after me 6-7 you would also be out of stamina at the end, so at least we'd have a fair fight then.

Now gap closing costs nothing, while dodging-blocking-bolting costs buckets. It only favours the side with more numbers in combat.

The dodge roll penalty needs a shorter cooldown.

The Stamina regen penalty needs a second or two before it activates.

This would allow other players the ability to guarantee hits on other players while still allowing room for skillful (and enjoyable) play.

Trouble with this is permablockers, which ZOS wants an end to, will just press and release the rmb every second to avoid the penalty. The simplest solution, which they seem to want to avoid at all costs for some reason, is the blanking out of skills with rmb pushed down, same way they do as you hold the sprint key down. There's all sorts of arguments why block casting is desirable or even necessary, but I'd prefer the end to block casting over this current stamina regen fix that has resulted in penalising intelligent defensive play.

Soo much this, i can't undestand why ZOS simple don't blank out the skills while we are holding block (with or without a shield) this would FIX once and for all the permablockers,

Fully agree. I also think that blocking magicka abilities should only be allowed if you have a shield equipped. Physical attacks would remain blockable by any weapon type.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

As someone who doesn't PvP a lot, I don't quite understand the problem.

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In my experience, in 1.6, defense was useless. Damage dealt was so high that during my defensive reaction to an alpha strike, my opponent would usually be able to kill me anyway. That is if I didn't already die after the alpha strike.
Now, in theory, high damage would make a defensive reaction more rewarding, instead of just taking the hit and spamming your own attack. But that only works if the defensive reaction actually counters the offensive action. The longer TTK in 1.7 at least gives me more opportunities to react.

A longer TTK was one of the most wanted changes, but apparently this has made it preferable to just take hits and ignore defensive play? Dodge roll spammers were one of the most annoying builds to many in 1.6, but apparently they was preferable to the current state?
I guess what I'm asking for here is some actual suggestions. Should defensive stamina-based actions be cheaper overall and damage increased again?

I look at it like a sports car.
If you cruise along that fuel gauge is going to be sitting pretty steady for a long time and get you 100s of miles.
If you hammer the pedal to the metal, the fuel gauge is going to visibly sink rapidly and not get you very far at all.

So it should be with DPS.
ie cost/dps/hit
The greater the damage you are doing over time the greater the resource cost.

This means burst builds are going to run out of resource quickly and be at a disadvantage resource wise for the lowered TTK
This means higher TTK builds will be much lighter on their resources and have good endurance.

Currently its just find the basic/skills/block or macro combo with the lowest cost/dps/hit..spam.. win.
Defending builds aren't animation cancelling..have a much higher cost/dps/hit ..and get heavily penalised cost wise for defending to boot.
Defensive builds aren't efficient.... they're prohibitive.

What it has also done is put a heavy spanner in the works of 100% block cancelling.... but killed everyone else off too defensively.

Okay, I can see that, but what's the proposed solution? Should the battle spirit effect be adjusted until we find a sweet spot where dedicated burst and resource builds are both viable?

Every form of damage has to have the same cost/dps/hit.
Double DPS = Double Cost.

There is no solution with multiple seperate GCDs and animation cancelling.
Its impossible to set cost/dps/hit as multiple skills have multiple execution times at present.
A 3 second skill takes 1 second cancelled but cost exactly the same amount.
There is no provision to have 1 cost for a one second version and another cost for the 3 second version.

That's why I strongly opposed animating cancelling being endorsed and allowed.
People wont give up their free dps for nothing though

Zos agrees.... #zosbalance
/shrugs. .. who cares anymore.

Lorkhan · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

The only way I've found to have the stamina to ensure I have the stamina to continue fighting is to just spam my damage abilities over and over and nothing else. Not only is this actually effective in 2.1....is pretty darn *boring*.

hm....@ezareth, are you serious? this is just wrong, man.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

I agree that stamina vanishes at an incredible rate on pts. Not just due to roll / block changes but also because of the battle spirit reductions mean that more skills are used to kill opponents which means more stamina (for me anyway). Now some of this maybe l2p with the changes, but it feels like we are flailing at foes with wet noodles and the NPCs hit back with trucks (relatively) unless we stack weapon damage through the roof. It just feels, well, wrong tbh.

Joy_Division · August 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

As someone who doesn't PvP a lot, I don't quite understand the problem.

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In my experience, in 1.6, defense was useless. Damage dealt was so high that during my defensive reaction to an alpha strike, my opponent would usually be able to kill me anyway. That is if I didn't already die after the alpha strike.
Now, in theory, high damage would make a defensive reaction more rewarding, instead of just taking the hit and spamming your own attack. But that only works if the defensive reaction actually counters the offensive action. The longer TTK in 1.7 at least gives me more opportunities to react.

A longer TTK was one of the most wanted changes, but apparently this has made it preferable to just take hits and ignore defensive play? Dodge roll spammers were one of the most annoying builds to many in 1.6, but apparently they was preferable to the current state?
I guess what I'm asking for here is some actual suggestions. Should defensive stamina-based actions be cheaper overall and damage increased again?

Problem #1: People are generally comfortable and dislike major change. 1.5 had a pretty high TTK. 1.6 had a low TTK. During 1.6, people said they wanted 1.5 TTK. Now we played 1.6 for so long, when we get 1.5 TTK, we complain it's too high, for nubs, and want 1.6 TTK.

Problem #2: In 1.7 Offensive resource expenditure for 2.1 is much less than defensive resource expenditure. This makes spamming offensive abilities artificially an efficient and effective means of play. It doesn't take much skill to press 1,1,1,1,1,1,1. It does take more skill for a medium armor user to dodge, 1, dodge, 1, dodge, 1. Yes dodge-rollers prefer the current state because it is ideally suited for them. While I agree perma-blocking takes zero skill, that's a different issue.

Problem #3: While a higher TTK was wanted by most people (even if many deny it now), the issue is that these fights are being drawn out just pressing extra offensive abilities rather than a natural and dynamic combat this game is capable of.

As for actual suggestions this is what I would have advised ESO to do:

If an artificial means of lowering damage was deemed necessary, then the problem was that players were doing too much damage (an issue in PvE as well) and did not have enough health. The nerf to health was a mistake. Spellpower/weapon power were too obvious Best in Slot.
Perma-dodge roling was a creation of 1.6 with its virtual unlimited resources. It should not be possible for NBs to have 3500 weapon damage and 2800 stamina regeneration. If they insist of removing softcaps, they need to make our choices more meaningful and have more consequence. If I do nothing but stack weapon damage, I ought to have little sustain and little defense.
Perma-blocking has been an issue since Beta. I think we could live with a blocker who merely mitgates our damage as opposed to mitigating it and killing us. I don't like the 'grey out offensive skills" idea because it is lazy and unrealistic. I would have implemented a spell/weapon power penalty for holding block as that is realistic and incentivizes us not to block, as opposed to putting in a contrived mechanism that punishes us for doing so.

In sum, more health, making actual "glass cannons" glassy, and rewarding us for not holding down block.

Robbmrp · August 2015

Instead of the 0 Stamina Regen while blocking, they should have added a blocking cool down. You shouldn't be able to block endlessly in this game anyway. Adding in a cool down would cause people to time their blocks more carefully requiring a lot more skill than just being able to press and hold block endlessly. The cool down could be anything from 1-5 seconds or be based on the length of block prior, the longer you held it, the longer the cool down.

I would say to make this just for PVP, but I think it would actually make tanking dungeons a lot more fun and challenging. You would actually have to dodge roll out of an attack or side step it since your on a blocking cool down.

Perma block isn't needed in this game for PVE or PVP. They could also tone down the boss damage just a bit with this change, maybe 5-25% on big hits to allow someone to take damage without a block and not get one shotted.

Get rid of the 0 Stamina Regen while blocking, add in a blocking cool down....

Dracane · August 2015

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

You guys seem to forget, that the changes to roll dodge and block were made, because there is this massive damage reduction in pvp. If they didn't change anything, it would be impossible to kill players with this damage reduction on top.

I think, many of us were quite satisfied with 1.6 and 1.7 is just boring and annoying. I want 1.6 back, because it was beautiful actually. Defense is strong, but 1 mistake could kill you. That's how it should be in my opinion and that's what I loved. Combat was exciting and rewarding. If you were skilled, you could take on a small group of less skilled players, because mistakes can kill you ,this is a beautiful concept and I want it to stay

This game is already plastic enough with too many lazy limitations in pvp. And 1.7 was a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. It definately has some good aspects. Only some though

I find myself agreeing with you again. 1.6 was nearly there; they just needed to fix exploits and bugs, and adjust damage ever so slightly to prevent 1-shots on anyone with at least 18k hp. What a waste of everybody's time and effort 1.7 has been.

Right. 1.7 was too much effort. A waste of time, money and nerves. 1.6 is not as imbalanced as people might think.
They need to adjust some numbers, some buffs here and there and of course bug fixes and exploit fixes.

I don't understand, why they would change the game AGAIN just because a few things were not 100% right.

Ezareth · August 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

As someone who doesn't PvP a lot, I don't quite understand the problem.

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In my experience, in 1.6, defense was useless. Damage dealt was so high that during my defensive reaction to an alpha strike, my opponent would usually be able to kill me anyway. That is if I didn't already die after the alpha strike.
Now, in theory, high damage would make a defensive reaction more rewarding, instead of just taking the hit and spamming your own attack. But that only works if the defensive reaction actually counters the offensive action. The longer TTK in 1.7 at least gives me more opportunities to react.

A longer TTK was one of the most wanted changes, but apparently this has made it preferable to just take hits and ignore defensive play? Dodge roll spammers were one of the most annoying builds to many in 1.6, but apparently they was preferable to the current state?
I guess what I'm asking for here is some actual suggestions. Should defensive stamina-based actions be cheaper overall and damage increased again?

Let me exclude the matter of what is actually *fun* from my argument and try to frame the issue from a min/max theorycrafter perspective because that's what I am above all else.

Let's compare a single block in 1.6 to 2.1

Let's take a fiarly high damage non-proctile ability with a base tooltip of 10,000 outside of Cyrodiil
Base cost of Blocking is 2160 Stamina, with a Sword and Board and Defensive Posture it is 1339 Stamina
Lets say you're running 2400 Stamina Regen for this comparison

1.6 - Block with 2 hander/Staff/Dual Wield: 10,000 * .8(Battle Spirit) * .5(Block) = 4000 Damage saved at the cost of 2160 Stamina
1.6 - Block with Sword + Shield (with Defensive Posture Slotted): 10,000*.8(Battle Spirit)*.36(Block) = 5120 Damage saved at the cost of 1339 Stamina.

2.1 - Block with 2 hander/Staff/Dual Wield: 10,000 * .5(Battle Spirit) * .5(Block) = 2500 Damage saved at the cost of 2160+2400(Stamina Regen Tick Loss)= 4560 Stamina
2.1 - Block with Sword + Shield (with Defensive Posture Slotted): 10,000*.5(Battle Spirit)*.36(Block) = 3200 Damage saved at the cost of 1339+2400(Stamina Regen Tick Loss) = 3739 Stamina

In 1.6 as you can see it makes sense to block without a sword and board in some circumstances and makes a lot of sense to block with a sword in board.

In 2.1 it now almost always costs you more stamina to block an attack than it does than it actually saves you in hitpoints unless you're in full heavy armor! This is just ridiculous!

Yes I left out the fact that blocking eliminates critical strikes from the equation since that would make it more complicated. I could mention several other things as well but I mainly wanted to highlight two key points that have changed since 2.1

The numerical benefit of blocking an attack was reduced by 37.5% while the cost increased by 110 - 180%.

As a player who is unable to find a useful defensive option in 1.6, you're actually going to be in far worse shape in 2.1 as players who get the "jump" on you are going to be in just as good of a situation and with your healing being nerfed, defensive options impaired which normally allow for you to "recover" from a gank you're now at an even larger disadvantage.

Ezareth · August 2015

Soulac wrote: »

That's the reason to have 2.2k mag Reg as Stamina NB.
Cloak is my defense now and dodge is only there in case someone marks me.

Sustain build and I can't maintain multiple dodge rolls, thanks zos.

Yup. Personally I hate cloak but I'm going to be forced into using it as the only viable defensive option left in the game which of course will be even more useful in 2.1

Lorkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The only way I've found to have the stamina to ensure I have the stamina to continue fighting is to just spam my damage abilities over and over and nothing else. Not only is this actually effective in 2.1....is pretty darn *boring*.

hm....@ezareth, are you serious? this is just wrong, man.

In hours of doing nothing but PvP this is what I found every time. I didn't lose a 1 v 1 I fought yet although I had many close fights. I'm not saying there is no room for skill at all, obviously dodge rolling single abilities *once* still has some benefit but tell me you find yourself blocking *anything* or find yourself hesitating when bashing someone.

Xeven · August 2015

@Ezareth

It's interesting to see your change of heart after switching to NB, what with being the author of "Rise of the perma-dodger". That and being the main voice reaching out for regen changes. You got exactly what you asked for but clearly it wasnt what you wanted.

The hypocrisy is mind blowing. Read your own thread. You might need to get some sun, bro.

Ezareth · August 2015

Xeven wrote: »

It's interesting to see your change of heart after switching to NB, what with being the author of "Rise of the perma-dodger". That and being the main voice reaching out for regen changes. You got exactly what you asked for but clearly it wasnt what you wanted.

@Xeven

Actually I always specifically disagreed with the idea of adding a "Bolt Escape" penalty to dodge roll for this very reason. If you read through all my posts when I played my Sorc I said that I didn't want to nerf dodge roll, I only wanted to nerf Resource Generation (this point was missed by 95% of the nightblades who read that thread) by making the champion point passive additive (Something I still believe) and balance the Stamina Cost reduction enchants to break dodge roll break free from them.

I made my Nightblade to prove my point and I stand by it (And grew to enjoy playing it which I never considered).

Ironically after all this time I feel those changes along with some slight adjustments to block mechanics would have solved those problems. With the Cyrodiil Battle Spirit Bug fix addressing the current state of Sorcs + many damage shields, and some damage abilities being too strong along with the exploit fixes combat would be perfect.

Manoekin · August 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In sum, more health, making actual "glass cannons" glassy, and rewarding us for not holding down block.

Agree with health and glass cannons. Health was easily one of the dumbest decision ever.

I also think this thread sucks because 1.6 pvp which we just came from was the worst version of pvp yet by far.