PTS Feedback - Combat has become uninteresting and far less enjoyable

Ezareth

Manoekin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'd like to see more tactical play as well, but I didn't see a lot of it in 1.6.

In sum, more health, making actual "glass cannons" glassy, and rewarding us for not holding down block.

Agree with health and glass cannons. Health was easily one of the dumbest decision ever.

I also think this thread sucks because 1.6 pvp which we just came from was the worst version of pvp yet by far.

No one said 1.6 was the gold standard of PvP but if you think combat in 2.1 is somehow better I don't know what to tell you because it feels like I'm playing WoW Arena with a controller interface.

Draxys

The damage reduction is overkill. Should've started at maybe 15% and increased if needed. And the basic mobs seem like they hit way too hard... I understand the bosses roaming around hitting hard but the trash mobs are just that- trash, and they should hit like that.

Ezareth

Draxys wrote: »

The damage reduction is overkill. Should've started at maybe 15% and increased if needed. And the basic mobs seem like they hit way too hard... I understand the bosses roaming around hitting hard but the trash mobs are just that- trash, and they should hit like that.

Well they started it at 20% increased it to 50% which is perhaps too much but that isn't as large of an issue as other problems.

And IC Trash Mobs do hit pretty stupidly hard relative to players which seems rather absurd.

kaorunandrak

@ZOS_RichLambert Can we get a lurk here? This is exactly the type of thread that needs it.

SkylarkAU

Draxys wrote: »

The damage reduction is overkill. Should've started at maybe 15% and increased if needed. And the basic mobs seem like they hit way too hard... I understand the bosses roaming around hitting hard but the trash mobs are just that- trash, and they should hit like that.

Keep in mind it's still early days.. the meta will evolve, players will earn more CPs and as a result player damage will get higher. I think of it as leaving a little room to grow.

pmn100b16_ESO

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

Dracane

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

The damage reduction is overkill. Should've started at maybe 15% and increased if needed. And the basic mobs seem like they hit way too hard... I understand the bosses roaming around hitting hard but the trash mobs are just that- trash, and they should hit like that.

Keep in mind it's still early days.. the meta will evolve, players will earn more CPs and as a result player damage will get higher. I think of it as leaving a little room to grow.

And keep in mind, that players get more defense as well.

Xeven

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

They already reduced the cost of all stamina abilities by 1/5.

We can compare defensive abilities all day long and you can come up with pros & cons for both...

A ) Dodge rolling avoids ALL damage, shields do not.
B ) Dodge rolling is NOT the only stamina based defensive ability.
C ) All classes have access to Healing Ward, Bone Shield, & Harness Magicka.

etc etc etc

Ezareth

Xeven wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

They already reduced the cost of all stamina abilities by 1/5.

We can compare defensive abilities all day long and you can come up with pros & cons for both...

A) Dodge rolling avoids ALL damage, shields do not.
Dodge rolling is NOT the only stamina based defensive ability.
C) All classes have access to Healing Ward, Bone Shield, & Harness Magicka.

etc etc etc

Those cost reductions never worked out to 20% and they were only class stamina abilities not *all* stamina abilities.

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf. To replace this it is far better now to maximize your stamina and weapon damage and ignore health in order to maximize your *healing*. Why mitigate/avoid damage when you can easily outheal it? This is what I meant by combat being boring, it's just mashing keys and animation cancels, very static combat and easily to mathematically dictate.

Stamina classes can't make use of any of those other than Bone Shield which if you've ever tried it isn't worth the GCD.

Xeven

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf.

You can't attack while using a shield ability either (although you can animation cancel attacks with a shield ability).

Defensive stance. Vigor. I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. Both are absolutely fantastic.

Bone shield does suck, I'll give you that, but Healing Ward and Harness Magicka are insanely good.

Blocking casting was way too strong, anyone without blinders on knows that. I havent tested it, but if you are losing a whole tick of regen for a 1 second block, that should be fixed. Otherwise, I am extremely pleased with the change.

Faulgor

Thanks for your explanations, everyone. I suppose I see the problem now, and really like most of your suggestions.
However, I have little hope that we will see any changes along those lines before release next week.

Manoekin

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

They already reduced the cost of all stamina abilities by 1/5.

We can compare defensive abilities all day long and you can come up with pros & cons for both...

A) Dodge rolling avoids ALL damage, shields do not.
Dodge rolling is NOT the only stamina based defensive ability.
C) All classes have access to Healing Ward, Bone Shield, & Harness Magicka.

etc etc etc

Those cost reductions never worked out to 20% and they were only class stamina abilities not *all* stamina abilities.

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf. To replace this it is far better now to maximize your stamina and weapon damage and ignore health in order to maximize your *healing*. Why mitigate/avoid damage when you can easily outheal it? This is what I meant by combat being boring, it's just mashing keys and animation cancels, very static combat and easily to mathematically dictate.

Stamina classes can't make use of any of those other than Bone Shield which if you've ever tried it isn't worth the GCD.

You checked the base cost? Also, not "all", the 20% was to bring the class abilities in line with weapon abilities which already had their own cost reduction. Stamina cost reduction is insane.

Ezareth

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf.

You can't attack while using a shield ability either (although you can animation cancel attacks with a shield ability).

Defensive stance. Vigor. I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. Both are absolutely fantastic.

Bone shield does suck, I'll give you that, but Healing Ward and Harness Magicka are insanely good.

Blocking casting was way too strong, anyone without blinders on knows that. I havent tested it, but if you are losing a whole tick of regen for a 1 second block, that should be fixed. Otherwise, I am extremely pleased with the change.

You can have a shields defense active and do damage. I was talking about the dodge roll period that you're avoiding damage, you do zero damage from direct attacks during this time. As you well know I am intimately aware of all the differences between dodge roll and damage shields. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but right now there is no penalty for spamming damage shields when under fire...just like cloak. This is going to force players into very specific playstyles that are less diverse and interesting.

Defensive stance is a defensive ability but with block being nerfed so hard its much harder to justify having a shield at all.

Vigor is a heal not a defensive ability. It is the new go to ability that replaces block and dodge roll as it is far more efficient for the GCD and cost.

I agree block casting was stupid, but my style of play involved reactive blocks and bashes which are now both worthless.You lose a whole tick of regen for a single insta block and release or bash. It's absurd. I used to block on my sorc as well....not any more.

Manoekin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

They already reduced the cost of all stamina abilities by 1/5.

We can compare defensive abilities all day long and you can come up with pros & cons for both...

A) Dodge rolling avoids ALL damage, shields do not.
Dodge rolling is NOT the only stamina based defensive ability.
C) All classes have access to Healing Ward, Bone Shield, & Harness Magicka.

etc etc etc

Those cost reductions never worked out to 20% and they were only class stamina abilities not *all* stamina abilities.

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf. To replace this it is far better now to maximize your stamina and weapon damage and ignore health in order to maximize your *healing*. Why mitigate/avoid damage when you can easily outheal it? This is what I meant by combat being boring, it's just mashing keys and animation cancels, very static combat and easily to mathematically dictate.

Stamina classes can't make use of any of those other than Bone Shield which if you've ever tried it isn't worth the GCD.

You checked the base cost? Also, not "all", the 20% was to bring the class abilities in line with weapon abilities which already had their own cost reduction. Stamina cost reduction is insane.

Several others have posted the numbers. I was replying to the comment that they all were made cheaper. Stamina abilities are relatively cheaper than their equivalent magicka counterparts but it is far easier to stack max magicka than it is max stamina and the benefits of doing so are greater. I should also point out that it's easier to stack magicka regen as well.

Forestd16b14_ESO

*sips tea* And here I am still waiting for heavy armor changes so that you don't have to rely on blocking dodging or shields to survive.

Lorkhan

hm....@ezareth, are you serious? this is just wrong, man.

[/quote]

In hours of doing nothing but PvP this is what I found every time. I didn't lose a 1 v 1 I fought yet although I had many close fights. I'm not saying there is no room for skill at all, obviously dodge rolling single abilities *once* still has some benefit but tell me you find yourself blocking *anything* or find yourself hesitating when bashing someone.[/quote]

maybe because i spent some CP in tumbling.... idk but i could roll dodge more than once, lol
i didnt block at all, but i didnt try a build for that (no block reduction glyphs, no block expertise CP, no black rose set, not even a shield equipped)
i lost a lot of 1x1, but stamina regen was not my problem

sicc

Well this is exactly what I've been afraid will happen to this game.They take away all the tools to win outnumbered and the reactive combat.

I honestly didn't think roll dodging or perma blocking was a problem. I only solo and usually would beat those play styles because i had counters for them. If your fighting with numbers on your side and roll dodgers and blockers were giving you problems then shame on you not them.

Now it sounds like a dps whack a mole with no way to over come being outnumbered because the game simply wont allow it due to the mechanics.

Xeven

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf.

You can't attack while using a shield ability either (although you can animation cancel attacks with a shield ability).

Defensive stance. Vigor. I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. Both are absolutely fantastic.

Bone shield does suck, I'll give you that, but Healing Ward and Harness Magicka are insanely good.

Blocking casting was way too strong, anyone without blinders on knows that. I havent tested it, but if you are losing a whole tick of regen for a 1 second block, that should be fixed. Otherwise, I am extremely pleased with the change.

You can have a shields defense active and do damage. I was talking about the dodge roll period that you're avoiding damage, you do zero damage from direct attacks during this time. As you well know I am intimately aware of all the differences between dodge roll and damage shields. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but right now there is no penalty for spamming damage shields when under fire...just like cloak. This is going to force players into very specific playstyles that are less diverse and interesting.

Defensive stance is a defensive ability but with block being nerfed so hard its much harder to justify having a shield at all.

Vigor is a heal not a defensive ability. It is the new go to ability that replaces block and dodge roll as it is far more efficient for the GCD and cost.

I agree block casting was stupid, but my style of play involved reactive blocks and bashes which are now both worthless.You lose a whole tick of regen for a single insta block and release or bash. It's absurd. I used to block on my sorc as well....not any more.

Manoekin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

They already reduced the cost of all stamina abilities by 1/5.

We can compare defensive abilities all day long and you can come up with pros & cons for both...

A) Dodge rolling avoids ALL damage, shields do not.
Dodge rolling is NOT the only stamina based defensive ability.
C) All classes have access to Healing Ward, Bone Shield, & Harness Magicka.

etc etc etc

Those cost reductions never worked out to 20% and they were only class stamina abilities not *all* stamina abilities.

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf. To replace this it is far better now to maximize your stamina and weapon damage and ignore health in order to maximize your *healing*. Why mitigate/avoid damage when you can easily outheal it? This is what I meant by combat being boring, it's just mashing keys and animation cancels, very static combat and easily to mathematically dictate.

Stamina classes can't make use of any of those other than Bone Shield which if you've ever tried it isn't worth the GCD.

You checked the base cost? Also, not "all", the 20% was to bring the class abilities in line with weapon abilities which already had their own cost reduction. Stamina cost reduction is insane.

Several others have posted the numbers. I was replying to the comment that they all were made cheaper. Stamina abilities are relatively cheaper than their equivalent magicka counterparts but it is far easier to stack max magicka than it is max stamina and the benefits of doing so are greater. I should also point out that it's easier to stack magicka regen as well.

Fair enough, exept for Vigor. A heal is a defensive ability, lol. Have you ever seen a Templar heal through a small zerg? If vigor is not defensive, neither are damage shields, because all they are, are preemptive heals.

See how dumb that sounds?

Ezareth

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

*sips tea* And here I am still waiting for heavy armor changes so that you don't have to rely on blocking dodging or shields to survive.

These abilities should be useable by *everyone* not just heavy armor users and not just stamina builds. Making them cost prohibitive just limits options and simplifies combat to a very routine model of spam heals + DPS until your opponent dies.

Lorkhan wrote: »

maybe because i spent some CP in tumbling.... idk but i could roll dodge more than once, lol
i didnt block at all, but i didnt try a build for that (no block reduction glyphs, no block expertise CP, no black rose set, not even a shield equipped)
i lost a lot of 1x1, but stamina regen was not my problem

I have 20 CPs in tumbling (and the impact of those are very minor). I said "once" because the second roll times is 38% more than the first and each one is after that is another 38% more. It all comes down to math. If you're avoiding attacks from a large number of people dodge roll is still worth it, but if it is just one person due to the reduced damage out there it may be better spent on another cast of vigor...it's worth dodging a high damage attack still as long as your not taking the dodge penalty (unless you know an even bigger attack is coming soon) but the second dodge roll is never worth it unless that attack is going to kill/disable you etc.

Xeniph

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf.

You can't attack while using a shield ability either (although you can animation cancel attacks with a shield ability).

Defensive stance. Vigor. I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. Both are absolutely fantastic.

Bone shield does suck, I'll give you that, but Healing Ward and Harness Magicka are insanely good.

Blocking casting was way too strong, anyone without blinders on knows that. I havent tested it, but if you are losing a whole tick of regen for a 1 second block, that should be fixed. Otherwise, I am extremely pleased with the change.

You can have a shields defense active and do damage. I was talking about the dodge roll period that you're avoiding damage, you do zero damage from direct attacks during this time. As you well know I am intimately aware of all the differences between dodge roll and damage shields. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but right now there is no penalty for spamming damage shields when under fire...just like cloak. This is going to force players into very specific playstyles that are less diverse and interesting.

Defensive stance is a defensive ability but with block being nerfed so hard its much harder to justify having a shield at all.

Vigor is a heal not a defensive ability. It is the new go to ability that replaces block and dodge roll as it is far more efficient for the GCD and cost.

I agree block casting was stupid, but my style of play involved reactive blocks and bashes which are now both worthless.You lose a whole tick of regen for a single insta block and release or bash. It's absurd. I used to block on my sorc as well....not any more.

Manoekin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

They already reduced the cost of all stamina abilities by 1/5.

We can compare defensive abilities all day long and you can come up with pros & cons for both...

A) Dodge rolling avoids ALL damage, shields do not.
Dodge rolling is NOT the only stamina based defensive ability.
C) All classes have access to Healing Ward, Bone Shield, & Harness Magicka.

etc etc etc

Those cost reductions never worked out to 20% and they were only class stamina abilities not *all* stamina abilities.

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf. To replace this it is far better now to maximize your stamina and weapon damage and ignore health in order to maximize your *healing*. Why mitigate/avoid damage when you can easily outheal it? This is what I meant by combat being boring, it's just mashing keys and animation cancels, very static combat and easily to mathematically dictate.

Stamina classes can't make use of any of those other than Bone Shield which if you've ever tried it isn't worth the GCD.

You checked the base cost? Also, not "all", the 20% was to bring the class abilities in line with weapon abilities which already had their own cost reduction. Stamina cost reduction is insane.

Several others have posted the numbers. I was replying to the comment that they all were made cheaper. Stamina abilities are relatively cheaper than their equivalent magicka counterparts but it is far easier to stack max magicka than it is max stamina and the benefits of doing so are greater. I should also point out that it's easier to stack magicka regen as well.

Fair enough, exept for Vigor. A heal is a defensive ability, lol. Have you ever seen a Templar heal through a small zerg? If vigor is not defensive, neither are damage shields, because all they are, are preemptive heals.

See how dumb that sounds?

To be fair, Shields are a lot more then preemptive heals. They negate crits and quite a few damage types along with the large HP buffer and able to be completely refreshed. I don't agree with your direct comparison, but can get on board with them both being classified as defensive.

Ezareth

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf.

You can't attack while using a shield ability either (although you can animation cancel attacks with a shield ability).

Defensive stance. Vigor. I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. Both are absolutely fantastic.

Bone shield does suck, I'll give you that, but Healing Ward and Harness Magicka are insanely good.

Blocking casting was way too strong, anyone without blinders on knows that. I havent tested it, but if you are losing a whole tick of regen for a 1 second block, that should be fixed. Otherwise, I am extremely pleased with the change.

You can have a shields defense active and do damage. I was talking about the dodge roll period that you're avoiding damage, you do zero damage from direct attacks during this time. As you well know I am intimately aware of all the differences between dodge roll and damage shields. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but right now there is no penalty for spamming damage shields when under fire...just like cloak. This is going to force players into very specific playstyles that are less diverse and interesting.

Defensive stance is a defensive ability but with block being nerfed so hard its much harder to justify having a shield at all.

Vigor is a heal not a defensive ability. It is the new go to ability that replaces block and dodge roll as it is far more efficient for the GCD and cost.

I agree block casting was stupid, but my style of play involved reactive blocks and bashes which are now both worthless.You lose a whole tick of regen for a single insta block and release or bash. It's absurd. I used to block on my sorc as well....not any more.

Manoekin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

As I don't see them changing the stamina regen while blocking thing, maybe they need to reduce stamina costs of abilities across the board to make up for the hit stamina specs have taken. Its a bit imbalanced when magicka defence (shields) can be spammed with impunity, but stamina defence (dodge roll) has a severe cost penalty.

They already reduced the cost of all stamina abilities by 1/5.

We can compare defensive abilities all day long and you can come up with pros & cons for both...

A) Dodge rolling avoids ALL damage, shields do not.
Dodge rolling is NOT the only stamina based defensive ability.
C) All classes have access to Healing Ward, Bone Shield, & Harness Magicka.

etc etc etc

Those cost reductions never worked out to 20% and they were only class stamina abilities not *all* stamina abilities.

Dodge rolling doesn't avoid all damage, if that were the case I wouldn't die so much and you can't attack while dodging (although you can animation cancel attacks with dodge roll)

Dodge rolling and blocking *are* the only two defensive stamina abilities and both were severely nerf. To replace this it is far better now to maximize your stamina and weapon damage and ignore health in order to maximize your *healing*. Why mitigate/avoid damage when you can easily outheal it? This is what I meant by combat being boring, it's just mashing keys and animation cancels, very static combat and easily to mathematically dictate.

Stamina classes can't make use of any of those other than Bone Shield which if you've ever tried it isn't worth the GCD.

You checked the base cost? Also, not "all", the 20% was to bring the class abilities in line with weapon abilities which already had their own cost reduction. Stamina cost reduction is insane.

Several others have posted the numbers. I was replying to the comment that they all were made cheaper. Stamina abilities are relatively cheaper than their equivalent magicka counterparts but it is far easier to stack max magicka than it is max stamina and the benefits of doing so are greater. I should also point out that it's easier to stack magicka regen as well.

Fair enough, exept for Vigor. A heal is a defensive ability, lol. Have you ever seen a Templar heal through a small zerg? If vigor is not defensive, neither are damage shields, because all they are, are preemptive heals.

See how dumb that sounds?

We're arguing semantics now. Perhaps instead of "defensive" ability we should speak instead of "Mitigation" ability.

There is passive mitigation like Armor, SR, and the CP mitigation passives.

Then there are reactive or active mitigation abilities.

Magicka has mistform and all the magick-based damage shields, reflective scales
Stamina has Defensive Posture, Dodge roll and block.

Healing abilities are healing abilities and then there are some hybrid abilities like Blur/Evasion and eclipse that have defensive properties but I wouldn't really consider them mitigation since they aren't guaranteed or can be countered.

Xeven

Mitigation, heath regeneration, whatever helps you stay alive. Segregating the different mechanics will only skew the argument to one side or the other. It must be looked at as a whole to achieve balance.

Ezareth

Xeven wrote: »

Mitigation, heath regeneration, whatever helps you stay alive. Segregating the different mechanics will only skew the argument to one side or the other. It must be looked at as a whole to achieve balance.

That's what I'm saying. The "balance" is now ability mashing.

Many people do not really get what this is going to do to core character design. It will become far more homogenous because it all comes down to math.

On 1.6 we are seeing this with Sorc builds. Why bother at all with blocking or dodge? Why ever increase stamina regen? Just let your shields absorb your damage, break free when CCed and mash DPS abilities until your opponents die.

This is exactly what will happen to stamina.

Why block or dodge? Just break free and absorb the damage. Have enough stamina regen to spam your damage abilities and heal, ignore the rest then maximize your weapon damage and stamina ignoring health because your damage will increase along with your healing(The stamina equivalent to damage shields). Maximize passive defenses only as reactive defenses are no long worth using.

Boring homogeneous combat that turns less into who has more skill and better timing and more into who has a better gear setup/build and CPs.

Does that sound fun to you?

Wycks

After watching the ESO team Twitch stream IC and PvP it's clear there is a lack game play knowledge.

The analogy is:

The ESO devs are like a Formula 1 racing team, they are all mechanics/engineers/designers and do very important things to make the car run , but they are not drivers. Without input from the driver the team fails, and ESO has no driver.

Ezareth

bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »

After watching the ESO team Twitch stream IC and PvP it's clear there is a lack game play knowledge.

The analogy is:

The ESO devs are like a Formula 1 racing team, they are all mechanics/engineers/designers and do very important things to make the car run , but they are not drivers. Without input from the driver the team fails, and ESO has no driver.

Aptly put.

yodased

Yup. Personally I hate cloak but I'm going to be forced into using it as the only viable defensive option left in the game which of course will be even more useful in 2.1

This is exactly what I meant by hybridize builds. You are no longer going to be able to max out stam regen/resource pool and be viable. You are going to have to use some stamina, some magic and some health.

They homogenized the builds into the least common denominator to level the playing field.

The actual "skilled" players will still be able to win fights against "lesser skilled", but the folks who maxed a build for one skill (aka wrecking blow permadodge or whip perma block) are s.o.l.

Xeven

@Ezareth
No not really, which is why I had to take a break from the game. I think we can all see the potential ESO has under all of the balance issues though, which is why we are all so passionate about it.

ColtPython

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Mitigation, heath regeneration, whatever helps you stay alive. Segregating the different mechanics will only skew the argument to one side or the other. It must be looked at as a whole to achieve balance.

That's what I'm saying. The "balance" is now ability mashing.

Many people do not really get what this is going to do to core character design. It will become far more homogenous because it all comes down to math.

On 1.6 we are seeing this with Sorc builds. Why bother at all with blocking or dodge? Why ever increase stamina regen? Just let your shields absorb your damage, break free when CCed and mash DPS abilities until your opponents die.

This is exactly what will happen to stamina.

Why block or dodge? Just break free and absorb the damage. Have enough stamina regen to spam your damage abilities and heal, ignore the rest then maximize your weapon damage and stamina ignoring health because your damage will increase along with your healing(The stamina equivalent to damage shields). Maximize passive defenses only as reactive defenses are no long worth using.

Boring homogeneous combat that turns less into who has more skill and better timing and more into who has a better gear setup/build and CPs.

Does that sound fun to you?

Totally agree with you Ez on all points. I just wanted to throw out there another stamina defensive ability that I personally love: Brawler. Not the best but its a blend of damage and defense. I have tried it on PTS and was not very successful as you have pointed out I would be better to go with a skill or combo that aims for full damage and no defense. Mitigation by obliteration... or the best defense is a good offense.. maybe the only defense is a good fast offense lol

kaorunandrak

@Ezareth I agree with what you saying and I have been saying this since actually being able to test the patch, not 5 minutes and done, but actually spending a majority of my play time in PTS running builds and theory crafting while testing the tried and true setups. Stamina PVE DPS was already stagnate and boring if you were running the "META" because it had you exploiting known to be bugged but not fixed til this patch abilities and mashing one friggen button all day(30k stamplars looking at you).

Now with the fixes to those abilities, while needed and supported by myself, you factor in the defensive reactionary abilities getting nerfed? Guess what now your gonna have the same problem because why would you block if it kills your stamina sustain? Why bash when it will kills you stamina sustain (unless you macro it)?

However I meant to type your not going to get any traction with the Devs or the community here, there are plenty of us that side with you but there are far too many who want to see dumb down game-play, refuse to look at the big picture, instead they just go pigeon holing and driving the same singular point across while refusing to acknowledge that the change doesn't stop it from happening for magicka users (perma block casting). And you also have way to few players who have actually dedicated any real time to testing these changes in all aspects and in as many scenarios as possible they rather be sheep and go with the popular opinion or that of their favorite "twitcher". I wish you luck man but I think your wasting your time posting, all hail the mmo community to quote Obi wan "you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy"

Ezareth

yodased wrote: »

Yup. Personally I hate cloak but I'm going to be forced into using it as the only viable defensive option left in the game which of course will be even more useful in 2.1

This is exactly what I meant by hybridize builds. You are no longer going to be able to max out stam regen/resource pool and be viable. You are going to have to use some stamina, some magic and some health.

They homogenized the builds into the least common denominator to level the playing field.

The actual "skilled" players will still be able to win fights against "lesser skilled", but the folks who maxed a build for one skill (aka wrecking blow permadodge or whip perma block) are s.o.l.

I use Blur and Mass Hysteria (Both magicka abilities) all the time. The majority of Stamina nightblades (even the ones who do min/max weapon damage) use cloak. That doesn't make your build hybrid.

My *Current* build is very "Hybrid" in the sense you're using. I have an even mix of health, Stamina and regen and I do very well with it. Out of all the players I doubt you'd ever find a successful player with builds that are more hybrid that mine.
Even my Sorc ran triple stamina cost reduction enchants, actively blocked and dodge rolled, only had 28K magicka, and ran sword and board.

What you're missing is after patch this is actually punished. Due to the block mechanics are they are implemented builds are penalized for using and build around them. It's now a min/maxers dream and the Hybrid builds are hit the hardest.

As a sorc you want the biggest damage shield and damage possible. As a stam user you want the biggest heal and damage possible to the exclusion of all else in your build. Not very interesting at all.

Ezareth

ColtPython wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Mitigation, heath regeneration, whatever helps you stay alive. Segregating the different mechanics will only skew the argument to one side or the other. It must be looked at as a whole to achieve balance.

That's what I'm saying. The "balance" is now ability mashing.

Many people do not really get what this is going to do to core character design. It will become far more homogenous because it all comes down to math.

On 1.6 we are seeing this with Sorc builds. Why bother at all with blocking or dodge? Why ever increase stamina regen? Just let your shields absorb your damage, break free when CCed and mash DPS abilities until your opponents die.

This is exactly what will happen to stamina.

Why block or dodge? Just break free and absorb the damage. Have enough stamina regen to spam your damage abilities and heal, ignore the rest then maximize your weapon damage and stamina ignoring health because your damage will increase along with your healing(The stamina equivalent to damage shields). Maximize passive defenses only as reactive defenses are no long worth using.

Boring homogeneous combat that turns less into who has more skill and better timing and more into who has a better gear setup/build and CPs.

Does that sound fun to you?

Totally agree with you Ez on all points. I just wanted to throw out there another stamina defensive ability that I personally love: Brawler. Not the best but its a blend of damage and defense. I have tried it on PTS and was not very successful as you have pointed out I would be better to go with a skill or combo that aims for full damage and no defense. Mitigation by obliteration... or the best defense is a good offense.. maybe the only defense is a good fast offense lol

Brawler unfortunately does more harm than good and it takes a valuable GCD to execute over another ability that does more damage or heals/shields for more. Historically Brawler ended up getting one-shot and the bleed effect would ensure the rest of the attack hit you for full unmitigated damage. With the addition of shield breaker sets and their prevalence I'd stay far away from any damage shields as a Stamina user.