PTS Feedback - Combat has become uninteresting and far less enjoyable

OdinForge

I feel pretty much the same way, only my stamina NB is a Dunmer with a small max stamina boost but not that extra regen. I don't intend on changing my race, i love the Dunmer but i feel extra pressured now. My weapon damage is higher and I'm still killing slower, not only that but even with an emphasis on heavy attacking i still run out of stamina easily with 2K regen (probably less on live all things said and done). I've never enjoyed being a permadodger with 2600+ regen, I've always been content with 2K regen and more damage, using more heavy attacks and timed blocking / dodging to win fights.

I fight one NB (first time NB ever) and i'm constantly fighting a resource battle. I can just picture all the NB i dislike that run in groups to jump you solo, only now i can't see a way to come back. It's not going to matter how well you outplay them, they will have too big an advantage in numbers and it won't matter how many mistakes they make.

The combat on the PTS feels too weightless, it makes me very sad. I don't know how i feel about Wrobel or ESO at this point, 1.6 needed a few changes. But it could have been so good without these extreme changes. Can't believe I'm thinking this, but 1.7 might actually be the patch that kills combat and my interest in the game.

Ezareth

OdinForge wrote: »

The combat on the PTS feels too weightless, it makes me very sad. I don't know how i feel about Wrobel or ESO at this point, 1.6 needed a few changes. But it could have been so good without these extreme changes. Can't believe I'm thinking this, but 1.7 might actually be the patch that kills combat and my interest in the game.

Pretty much exactly how I feel right now.

I'd love to hear some Dev feedback on this at this point because if this is the future of ESO then I can't see myself as part of it.

k2blader

yodased wrote: »

From my measly 5hrs in pts i can say that min maxers are taking a hit in the patch. It seems that they are pushing folks to hybridize their builds and not stack resource or regen or damage.

Did you try a hybrid at all?

Late to thread so haven't yet scrolled through all the responses, but I like the thought above.

I've never liked min-maxing for "endless resources" because that's what creates boring play. I think roles should be pretty defined into DPS, tank/sustain, or heal, and it shouldn't be you can be good at two of those, or all of those, or be able to have enough resources to run away/reset (unless that's all you plan to do.

k2blader

Ezareth wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

From my measly 5hrs in pts i can say that min maxers are taking a hit in the patch. It seems that they are pushing folks to hybridize their builds and not stack resource or regen or damage.

Did you try a hybrid at all?

What exactly does hybridize mean? Do you mean throw a bunch of crap together from a random assortment of skills and call it a build? I tried maxing regen, I tried maxing Stamina. The issue as I mentioned isn't that min/maxers are taking a "hit", min max is actually far stronger now than it ever was. The issue is, combat is boring because it was just simplified to damage ability key mashing. Blocking and dodge roll have been neutered so bad that the name of the game becomes glass cannon.

Damage ability key mashing. That's all I see in Cyrodiil these days, especially with groups that just move/blob around doing exactly that, rolling over anyone caught in their path. Or individuals with high CPs and cheese builds: damage ability key mash, dead in 2 seconds, repeat.

It's stupid.

Ezareth

k2blader wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

From my measly 5hrs in pts i can say that min maxers are taking a hit in the patch. It seems that they are pushing folks to hybridize their builds and not stack resource or regen or damage.

Did you try a hybrid at all?

What exactly does hybridize mean? Do you mean throw a bunch of crap together from a random assortment of skills and call it a build? I tried maxing regen, I tried maxing Stamina. The issue as I mentioned isn't that min/maxers are taking a "hit", min max is actually far stronger now than it ever was. The issue is, combat is boring because it was just simplified to damage ability key mashing. Blocking and dodge roll have been neutered so bad that the name of the game becomes glass cannon.

Damage ability key mashing. That's all I see in Cyrodiil these days, especially with groups that just move/blob around doing exactly that, rolling over anyone caught in their path. Or individuals with high CPs and cheese builds: damage ability key mash, dead in 2 seconds, repeat.

It's stupid.

And it's become much more powerful.

Right now in 1.6 combat is far more fluid in solo play with the most skilled players utilizing a large subset of abilities. Sure there are strings of repeating abilities at times like Bolt Escape or Wrecking blow but the majority of combat is fluid.

My combat sequence in 2.1 looks like This
Activate Rally/Relentless Focus
Piercing Mark Taget
Summon Shade Target (for maim)
Crit Charge to Target
Wrecking blow
Wrecking blow
(Take Damage/break free somewhere in here)
Vigor
Wrecking Blow
Wrecking Blow
Vigor
Wrecking Blow
Wrecking Blow
(Dead target (usually) by now
Otherwise Relentless Focus
Rally

Repeat

No point in dodge rolling
no point in blocking
no point in even fearing since they aren't blocking and they're always on CC immunity from my wrecking blow.
Just mash keys until my opponent dies and hope he doesn't mash keys with higher CPs and damage than me.

Sound fun?

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

It'd be nice if they added utility to heavy attacks instead of people being able to trololololol hold block and make it bounce back in your face.

In Skyrim and Oblivion it worked completely the opposite. If you tried to trololololol hold block, enemies could charge up heavy attacks and stagger you. Only Skyrim introduced the option to bash someone to interrupt a heavy attack, but bashing did minimal damage unless fully specced into it, and was there for purely interrupt/stagger.

ESO heavy attacks are entirely forced in combat. Every passive there is from Follow up to Bound Armaments to Frenzy REQUIRES 'fully charged heavy attack'. There is no cast still in the game that doesn't take more than 2 seconds to cast...maybe what, blood well...and proxy det? but who casts those in the thick of battle?

They'd have to double, heck probably triple the stamina return to make it at all enticing, and add a blockbuster utility to it where it drains more stamina and disorients people if they try holding trolololol block. I know theres some people who maximize heavy attacks and hit like a truck but thats often stealth attacks. Using heavy attack in combat that only really works against someone who doesn't use a shield, isn't paying attention to you, or a npc.

RinaldoGandolphi

@Ezareth Bro, you just summed up my thoughts to the letter, just in a much more eloquent way.

Got nothing to add. Word

Personofsecrets

Draxys wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

WTS my soul for 1.5 again.

^

willing to throw in my hot sweaty dunmer body

Yes please. 1.5 was the best patch so far.

Draxys

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

WTS my soul for 1.5 again.

^

willing to throw in my hot sweaty dunmer body

Yes please. 1.5 was the best patch so far.

all we needed from 1.5 was tweaks like buffing temps and stam and would've been good

Docmandu

I kind of fear next week.. currently still having fun with the game (even with all the cheating that ZOS just ignores), but next week we'll be playing a totally different ESO (yet again).. the few play sessions I had on PTS, didn't convince me that it's an improvement over what we have now.

Soulac

- making heavy attacks, jabs, rapid strikes and wrecking blow no longer interruptable
- Dodge is a lot more expensive
- block costs you more than just taking the hit
- ultimate generation change which is basically like a cooldown now
- nearly infinity ressources while still being able to deal a hell lot of dmg
- pushing one stat = win
- grind = win
- press one button = win

They like static fights, simply easy combat with button smashing.
Basically applying your head to your keyboard.

From patch to patch this game turns more and more to a game where skill doesn't count at all.
Everyone got the same ultimate generation no matter how many enemies he's fighting, everyone is able to achieve huge recovery or reductions to never run out of ressources while still doing damage.
Using abilities with a cast time comes without risk, anyone can fill up their ressources without getting into trouble.

And then there is the beautiful champion-system. The more mobs you killed the stronger you are. Combos? Movement? Who needs stuff like that anyway. These days you get punished to do something different than standing on one spot and spam an ability.

If I fight three enemies at once I should get more ultimate, I shouldn't be punish to use active defense and most certainly people shouldn't win by smashing their head on the keyboard.
I like the fixes in the upcoming patch but the combat itself could barely be worse than it already is.

It's combat for casuals or people who are not able to make use of given mechanics it seems.

Ishammael

Soulac wrote: »

- making heavy attacks, jabs, rapid strikes and wrecking blow no longer interruptable
- Dodge is a lot more expensive
- block costs you more than just taking the hit
- ultimate generation change which is basically like a cooldown now
- nearly infinity ressources while still being able to deal a hell lot of dmg
- pushing one stat = win
- grind = win
- press one button = win

They like static fights, simply easy combat with button smashing.
Basically applying your head to your keyboard.

From patch to patch this game turns more and more to a game where skill doesn't count at all.
Everyone got the same ultimate generation no matter how many enemies he's fighting, everyone is able to achieve huge recovery or reductions to never run out of ressources while still doing damage.
Using abilities with a cast time comes without risk, anyone can fill up their ressources without getting into trouble.

And then there is the beautiful champion-system. The more mobs you killed the stronger you are. Combos? Movement? Who needs stuff like that anyway. These days you get punished to do something different than standing on one spot and spam an ability.

If I fight three enemies at once I should get more ultimate, I shouldn't be punish to use active defense and most certainly people shouldn't win by smashing their head on the keyboard.
I like the fixes in the upcoming patch but the combat itself could barely be worse than it already is.

It's combat for casuals or people who are not able to make use of given mechanics it seems.

This is how it seems to me. Plus, you can buy xp pots on the crown store and get better 50% faster!

Draxys wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

WTS my soul for 1.5 again.

^

willing to throw in my hot sweaty dunmer body

Yes please. 1.5 was the best patch so far.

all we needed from 1.5 was tweaks like buffing temps and stam and would've been good

Omg I would give so much for 1.5 with a few tweaks and new content. Why didn't they just spend the effort on content rather rather than reinventing balance.

RoamingRiverElk

Soulac wrote: »

- making heavy attacks, jabs, rapid strikes and wrecking blow no longer interruptable
- Dodge is a lot more expensive
- block costs you more than just taking the hit
- ultimate generation change which is basically like a cooldown now
- nearly infinity ressources while still being able to deal a hell lot of dmg
- pushing one stat = win
- grind = win
- press one button = win

They like static fights, simply easy combat with button smashing.
Basically applying your head to your keyboard.

From patch to patch this game turns more and more to a game where skill doesn't count at all.
Everyone got the same ultimate generation no matter how many enemies he's fighting, everyone is able to achieve huge recovery or reductions to never run out of ressources while still doing damage.
Using abilities with a cast time comes without risk, anyone can fill up their ressources without getting into trouble.

And then there is the beautiful champion-system. The more mobs you killed the stronger you are. Combos? Movement? Who needs stuff like that anyway. These days you get punished to do something different than standing on one spot and spam an ability.

If I fight three enemies at once I should get more ultimate, I shouldn't be punish to use active defense and most certainly people shouldn't win by smashing their head on the keyboard.
I like the fixes in the upcoming patch but the combat itself could barely be worse than it already is.

It's combat for casuals or people who are not able to make use of given mechanics it seems.

EXACTLY. THIS. SO MUCH.

k2blader

Soulac wrote: »

It's combat for casuals or people who are not able to make use of given mechanics it seems.

I don't understand why you need to mention "casuals" as the word means different things for different people. I define it based on one's attitude toward playing what is ultimately a meaningless computer game. If you define it as (generally speaking) people who log in and "expect" to do well in PvP with little or no real time invested into figuring out how to get better in PvP, then I might see your point. But to call them casuals is too broad-- they are likely just PvEers who will never be very good at PvP for the reason mentioned above.

[edit]
Wanted to add you can probably call Zenimax devs "casuals." lol

Ezareth

k2blader wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

It's combat for casuals or people who are not able to make use of given mechanics it seems.

I don't understand why you need to mention "casuals" as the word means different things for different people. I define it based on one's attitude toward playing what is ultimately a meaningless computer game. If you define it as (generally speaking) people who log in and "expect" to do well in PvP with little or no real time invested into figuring out how to get better in PvP, then I might see your point. But to call them casuals is too broad-- they are likely just PvEers who will never be very good at PvP for the reason mentioned above.

[edit]
Wanted to add you can probably call Zenimax devs "casuals." lol

Casual players are people who can't appreciate or achieve the level of skill required to master complicated gameplay. They're either incapable or have no interest in improving their gameplay every day. "Catering" to casuals is something the players who do appreciate complex and varied gameplay despise at it simplifies the game for us to a point that it no longer becomes challenge and it is no longer possible for us to improve our gameplay through skill.

Xeven

Damage has to be high enough that not only do you want to avoid a hard hitting ability, but you also want to avoid CC, because of the damage you will take while getting up.

You have to be scared. Damage HAS TO be high enough for you to be scared. I've not tried a whole lot of IC PvP, but if there is no reason to block or dodge roll, then something is fundamentally wrong.

I think that blocking a CC ability should give you CC immunity. You are rewarded with immunity for face tanking, and punished for blocking... thats backwards! Anyone can see that!

Morvul

Tors wrote: »

Why are you hamstringing yourself in this way?

90 points into a champion line is a total waste of time.


90 Points in mooncalf gives you 23.4% stam regen bonus

50 Points gives you 15.6%
60 Points gives you 17.7%
70 Points gives you 19.7%
80 Points gives you 21.6%

Look at the returns on the graph below.

that graph shows exactly what I keep preeching:
sure, if a CP line gives something you don't especially, need - just throw 5 points that way, get the huge initial bonus, and be done.
BUT: if it is worthwhile to put 30 points into something, it is also worthwhile to put the entire 100 points in - 'cause by then the bonus per additional point stays virtually the same

Dracane

BuggeX wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

ZOS has never understood the "Counters not nerfs" philosophy.

I never had an issue with perma dodge rollers because I used Detonation and curse.
Perma blocker? Use a skill that goes through block.

I am lucky that I have a class that has one of each of these but there should be more classless skill lines with these types of counters.

What we need is a wealth of new skills, fixes for old skills, and more counters and counter counters than you can count.

That is what makes fighting more interesting. Not cooldowns. NO MORE BLOODY COOLDOWNS!!!!


Imagine waking up and reading this in the patch notes:

YOLO's DREAM PATCH NOTES:

1. Roots now actually work and hold people in place. Bolt escape, teleport, charge, etc dont work until a dodge roll is performed, or the root is purged or expires. All nerfs to bolt escape are reverted.
2. Added 2 new abilities to the game that can be used by any class that apply roots including one that is single target and long range.
3. Added 2 new abilities to the game that go through dodge roll. Dodge roll penalty reverted.
4. Snares now reduce the movement speed of blocking opponents by an increased amount and reduce the distance traveled when dodge rolling. Snares are now useful. Reverted the no stam regen while blocking change.
5. Added 2 new abilities that CC or damage through block each with stamina morphs. One of these abilities makes you do greater damage to blocking opponents while slotted.
6. Added a new spell that is an OFFENSIVE PURGE that removes enemy buffs, shields, active effects.

BAM. Counters. You won't be able to slot all of these on your bar but that is the point. This will let you build for what you hate the most and want to counter. These won't be perfect but they can be tweaked. Better to provide a counter to something then to just nerf it to the ground.

Added a Spell to pull back Boltescapers - Range 50m
Added a Spell to pull back Cloaker - Range 50m

now we have balance

Added a spell, that disables blocking for 50s

Balance

Just joking, your suggestion is not balanced.

Rune_Relic

kaorunandrak wrote: »

I think the only way they could go for true balance is to drop classes and open the skills up for everyone, but even then you would have people choosing the 5-10 most Op skills from each of the class skill lines for their chosen role and slotting only those.

Then it would be balanced ?

Darnathian

doublecpost

Docmandu wrote: »

I kind of fear next week.. currently still having fun with the game (even with all the cheating that ZOS just ignores), but next week we'll be playing a totally different ESO (yet again).. the few play sessions I had on PTS, didn't convince me that it's an improvement over what we have now.

It's not. They didn't fix one of the biggest issues. Shield stacking. Instead overall they weakened their counter, stam builds imo.

CaptainObvious

Kinda like their "zerg buster" abilities that they added to the alliance war trees. Opposite effect. Since they leave themselves with no time to alter course, enter iceberg.

How many people will use Guard now I wonder as well?

Lava_Croft

Soulac wrote: »

- making heavy attacks, jabs, rapid strikes and wrecking blow no longer interruptable
- Dodge is a lot more expensive
- block costs you more than just taking the hit
- ultimate generation change which is basically like a cooldown now
- nearly infinity ressources while still being able to deal a hell lot of dmg
- pushing one stat = win
- grind = win
- press one button = win

They like static fights, simply easy combat with button smashing.
Basically applying your head to your keyboard.

From patch to patch this game turns more and more to a game where skill doesn't count at all.
Everyone got the same ultimate generation no matter how many enemies he's fighting, everyone is able to achieve huge recovery or reductions to never run out of ressources while still doing damage.
Using abilities with a cast time comes without risk, anyone can fill up their ressources without getting into trouble.

And then there is the beautiful champion-system. The more mobs you killed the stronger you are. Combos? Movement? Who needs stuff like that anyway. These days you get punished to do something different than standing on one spot and spam an ability.

If I fight three enemies at once I should get more ultimate, I shouldn't be punish to use active defense and most certainly people shouldn't win by smashing their head on the keyboard.
I like the fixes in the upcoming patch but the combat itself could barely be worse than it already is.

It's combat for casuals or people who are not able to make use of given mechanics it seems.

The target audience is casuals these days.

Draxys

CaptainObvious wrote: »

Kinda like their "zerg buster" abilities that they added to the alliance war trees. Opposite effect. Since they leave themselves with no time to alter course, enter iceberg.

How many people will use Guard now I wonder as well?

Probably the same amount of people, which is a grand total of like 3

Halfwitte

Ezareth wrote: »

Let me start by saying I've played both as a Vet15 Bosmer Nightblade wearing 7/7 Medium Armor, triple Stamina cost reduction enchants, and 90 out of 100 Champion points into Stamina regen, (10 into Warlord) with full Vet14 Legendary gear with 2 Stamina regen bonuses and Vet10 Blue Stam/Magicka drink as well as the Vet 16 Bosmer NB Template with 7/7 Medium Armor, Purple Drink, triple Stamina regen enchants, 100 out of 100 into stamina regen and a V16 maximum stamina legendary set of gear.

As far as Stamina resource generation goes you're not really going to find a player with a setup any more stamina efficient than mine, I'm easily in the top 1% as far as that goes. I have just over 2400 Stamina regeneration without a major(Tripot)/minor endurance(Relentless Focus) or Battle Rush buffs active and just over 20,000 stamina( a loss of 600 with the same setup on live). With the V16 Template I have 30,00 stamina and 2300 stamina regen.

So after many sessions of testing and tweaking on the PTS I'm finding that amazingly it is extremely difficult for me not to run out of stamina in any skillful sort of extended combat with a build that is focused on *not* running out of stamina and it's pretty dissapointing. I'm not really dying...but I'm finding myself unable to continue engaging in combat while I'm waiting for resources to regen which just isn't fun.

This isn't because I'm spamming dodge roll. It isn't because I'm holding block, it *is* because I'm using all of my abilities, including dodge roll, Bash, Block (reactively only) and weapon abilities. I can kill 1 person easily using my entire stamina bar, but the moment I try to fight two players or fight another player after killing the first I'm virtually out of stamina. I've tried weaving in heavy attacks to help supplement my stamina but that has limited effectiveness since the return is so low. Bashing and Blocking are now prohibitively expensive with the loss of stamina regen. If someone goes to wrecking blow me, it is cheaper for me to let them hit me and break free, than it is for me to block it since I'm then given CC immunity. This isn't behavior that should be rewarded!

The only way I've found to have the stamina to ensure I have the stamina to continue fighting is to just spam my damage abilities over and over and nothing else. Not only is this actually effective in 2.1....is pretty darn *boring*. And that is what combat has become to me in the 6 or 7 hours I've spent wandering around IC. Boring and uninteresting. The things that made combat to me interesting (even on my Sorc); Bashing and blocking have an unacceptable cost attached to them which makes no sense

I don't want this to become all doom and gloom. I've waited for IC for so long and had such high hopes for it but I find myself looking forward to patch day with trepidation, not excitement. Something needs to be done here to not penalize skillful play, while restricting the abuse of permadodging/permablocking. If this goes live as it is, I can't see myself lasting very long as the combat was the only thing other than my friends that keep my playing this game.

AMEN.

Soulac

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

- making heavy attacks, jabs, rapid strikes and wrecking blow no longer interruptable
- Dodge is a lot more expensive
- block costs you more than just taking the hit
- ultimate generation change which is basically like a cooldown now
- nearly infinity ressources while still being able to deal a hell lot of dmg
- pushing one stat = win
- grind = win
- press one button = win

They like static fights, simply easy combat with button smashing.
Basically applying your head to your keyboard.

From patch to patch this game turns more and more to a game where skill doesn't count at all.
Everyone got the same ultimate generation no matter how many enemies he's fighting, everyone is able to achieve huge recovery or reductions to never run out of ressources while still doing damage.
Using abilities with a cast time comes without risk, anyone can fill up their ressources without getting into trouble.

And then there is the beautiful champion-system. The more mobs you killed the stronger you are. Combos? Movement? Who needs stuff like that anyway. These days you get punished to do something different than standing on one spot and spam an ability.

If I fight three enemies at once I should get more ultimate, I shouldn't be punish to use active defense and most certainly people shouldn't win by smashing their head on the keyboard.
I like the fixes in the upcoming patch but the combat itself could barely be worse than it already is.

It's combat for casuals or people who are not able to make use of given mechanics it seems.

The target audience is casuals these days.

Unfortunately, yes. Not a reason to make everything that easy.

FENGRUSH

Well this isnt what I wanted to come to the forums and read the day before IC.

Ezareth

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Well this isnt what I wanted to come to the forums and read the day before IC.

Good thing we've had a lot of practice lining up them Wrecking blows ehh? / =

FENGRUSH

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Well this isnt what I wanted to come to the forums and read the day before IC.

Good thing we've had a lot of practice lining up them Wrecking blows ehh? / =

Already got used to being complained to about wrecking blow spam as well. Yet I cant fit boundless armaments on my bar - but Im only pressing 2 buttons in PvP!

Teargrants

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Well this isnt what I wanted to come to the forums and read the day before IC.

Good thing we've had a lot of practice lining up them Wrecking blows ehh? / =

Already got used to being complained to about wrecking blow spam as well. Yet I cant fit boundless armaments on my bar - but Im only pressing 2 buttons in PvP!

Lord FENGRUSH presses no buttons, He has everything macro'd to voice commands.

Ezareth

Teargrants wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Well this isnt what I wanted to come to the forums and read the day before IC.

Good thing we've had a lot of practice lining up them Wrecking blows ehh? / =

Already got used to being complained to about wrecking blow spam as well. Yet I cant fit boundless armaments on my bar - but Im only pressing 2 buttons in PvP!

Lord FENGRUSH presses no buttons, He has everything macro'd to voice commands.

Wow I need to learn how to do that. My face gets sore after a few hours of rolling across my keyboard when 1vX happens.