Orc Passives

Duukar · August 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Duukar wrote: »

I tested it. It does not affect skill dmg. Only basic attack damage. Really lack luster......

lol? Are you sure? How did you do your testing?

Did your testing indicate otherwise? If it does affect Surprise attack and WB then im happy as a clam. I asked for confirmation from ZoS but got none and my testing shows no affect.

Duukar · August 2015

someone send me some cash on the PTS @duukar so i can test this further.. im spent!

tinythinker · August 2015

xylena wrote: »

orcs and nords both need "robust" changed to "robust constitution" like was done for khajit to be on par with other races... health regen is a useless stat at endgame whether pvp or pve since it's ridiculously tiny compared to your self heals, to say nothing of the huge burst heals provided by allies... meanwhile 10% extra stamina regen is crucial for pve tanking and any pvp with the changes to blocking and lycanthropy

@xylena, I noticed you mentioned the same thing in a thread about Nord passives. Or I think I recall that. So many threads on racial passives. Anyway, what do you (or any other Orc/Nord players reading along) think about these kinds of changes which not only upgrade rename "Robust" but also give players with those races better tools with which to knock heads?

Orsimer

Under the system proposed in the link given above (with a cap of 9 points total/* must take first) you could choose from options such as:

Heavy Armor Expertise: Free passive.
Increases gain with the Heavy Armor skill line by 15%.

Brawny
(*) Increases your maximum bag space by 10.
(_) Increases Maximum Health and Maximum Stamina by 3%.
(_) Increases Maximum Health and Maximum Stamina by 6%.

Malacath's Favor
(*) Increases Physical Resistance by X.
(_) Increases Health Regeneration by 10%.
(_) Increases Health Regeneration by 20%.

Swift Warrior
(*) Reduces Sprint cost by 10% and increases Sprint Speed by 12%.
(_) Increases the speed of regular (light and heavy) weapon attacks and their resulting damage by 2%.
(_) Increases the speed of regular (light and heavy) weapon attacks and their resulting damage by 4%.

Berserker Rage
(*) Fully charged heavy attacks with Melee Weapons do an 6% extra damage.
(_) Increases Weapon Damage by 200 when below 20% health.
(_) Increases Weapon Damage by 400 when below 20% health.

The Logic

The familiar passives somewhat changed from the proposed 2.1 version. Robust is renamed Malacath's Favor and includes a bonus to Physical Resistance. Putting the "swift" in Swift Warrior, it now has bonuses to Sprint Speed and to any weapon attacks, not just melee weapons like One Handed+Shield, Two Handed, and Dual Wield. Instead, the new passive Berzerker Rage, named after a traditional Elder Scrolls ability, gives an additional bonus for fully charged Melee Weapon attacks. The bonus for such attacks when combined with Swift Warrior is a solid 10%, and with that faster speed (especially with a weighted weapon) you can pummel your opponents.

Berserker Rage is a lore friendly idea that makes Orcs especially dangerous when their backs are against the wall, but even if you want to go Bow, the other three passives support your play style. Mix and match passives with your preferred gear and play style to punish your foes.

Nords

Under the system proposed in the link given above (with a cap of 9 points total/* must take first) you could choose from options such as:

Two Handed Weapon Expertise: Free passive.
Increases gain with the Two Handed Weapon skill line by 15%.

Hardy
(*) Increases health regeneration by 20%.
(_) Increases Max Stamina by 3%.
(_) Increases Max Stamina by 6%.

Resist Frost
(*) Increases Cold Resistance by X.
(_) Increases Max Health 3%.
(_) Increases Max Health 6%.

Rugged
(*) Reduces length of immobilizing status effects by 50%.
(_) Decrease incoming damage by 3%
(_) Decrease incoming damage by 6%

Kyne's Grace
(*) Gain a 3% chance of negating the cost of a stamina ability.
(_) Gain a 4% chance to absorb any projectile for 500 stamina.
(_) Gain an 8% chance to absorb any projectile for 500 stamina.

The Logic

Many players are not happy with Robust in 1.6/2.1, so it has been renamed and buffed here. Rugged now makes you resistance to roots and snares. The new passive Kyne's Grace adds to damage reduction and stamina management. This racial example shows off some of the fun of having options for customization. Depending on how you want to play, do you take Hardy or Kyne's Grace, for instance? Or perhaps both but leave out something else?

Cathexis · August 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Zuuman wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Well thats something at least but imperials are still arguably significantly better.

Yes and they come at a 30$ extra fee so i fail to see why it is a problem that they are somewhat better.

Because pay to win is a terrible model and is the signature of a dead game.

so this game was dead before it was launched? logic/100

Racials were balanced pre 1.6 because caps limited the effects of stacking.

Also I don't know of you've actually been playing this game since launch but pops have definitely dramatically declined since the first 6 months or so.

Victus · August 2015

I really enjoy the speed buff on my orc. Wish they would keep that in.

WillhelmBlack · August 2015

Also gutted about losing the speed buff.

Xael · August 2015

Victus wrote: »

I really enjoy the speed buff on my orc. Wish they would keep that in.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Also gutted about losing the speed buff.

Where did they say they removed the speed buff?

WillhelmBlack · August 2015

Xael wrote: »

Victus wrote: »

I really enjoy the speed buff on my orc. Wish they would keep that in.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Also gutted about losing the speed buff.

Where did they say they removed the speed buff?

I thought they had, hope they haven't. Can't get into PTS yet, it's stuck at 55% for like ever so can't check.

I heard they were removing the Swift passive for an increase of 4% weapon power. I heard it on ESO live and thought I'd read it in the patch notes too.

Xael · August 2015

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Victus wrote: »

I really enjoy the speed buff on my orc. Wish they would keep that in.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Also gutted about losing the speed buff.

Where did they say they removed the speed buff?

I thought they had, hope they haven't. Can't get into PTS yet, it's stuck at 55% for like ever so can't check.

I heard they were removing the Swift passive for an increase of 4% weapon power. I heard it on ESO live and thought I'd read it in the patch notes too.

No they never did that or said it (to my knowledge).
We had the movement passive last PTS and still have it on this one

Here is my screenshot on the new PTS for proof

Duukar · August 2015

That 10% really shows up in a suit of medium armor. Im going to try and test the 4% dmg bonus more, but as I said my initial tests showed nothing...

Duukar · August 2015

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_JamesO

Extensive testing complete on new Orc 4% passive Melee Damage increase.

Long story short this 4% increase only affects Melee Weapon Abilities and Basic Attacks.

No Class Skills. Not Steel tornado, Flying Blade, Rapid strikes(????), or Caltrops. The tooltip should be corrected. I also believe it not affecting Rapid Strikes to be an error in the current implementation.

As an Orc NB this "buff" is literally useless as I only use class skills, Flying blade(not affected), and Steel Tornado(not affected). Rapid Strikes I use in PvE and also not affected.

TESTING - ALL THINGS EQUAL (Math shows an exact 4% increase when the new passive works)

Skill - dmg without Swift Warrior /dmg with Swift Warrior

Light Attack - 1474 / 1532

CLASS SKILLS

Surprise Attack - 5643 / 5643

Ambush - 4581 / 4581

Killers Blade - 2288 / 2288

Soul Harvest - 8139 / 8139

WEAPON SKILLS

DW

Flying Blade - 5643 / 5643

Steel Tornado - 2318 / 2318 (1st hit on undamaged enemy)

Quick Cloak - 905 / 942 (WHAAAATTT??) 37 dmg bonus

Rapid Strikes - 1001 / 1001 (1st hit in the series) ( WHAAATTTT??)

Rending Slash - 1349 / 1402 (1st hit) (forgot to test bleed ticks) 53 dmg bonus

2H

Wrecking Blow - 8704 / 8982 (should be 9052?????) 278 dmg bonus

Executioner - 2644 / 2744 - 100 dmg bonus

Brawler - No test, too boring.

Crit Rush - Impossible to test properly

1HS

Ransack - 3688 / 3835 - 147 dmg bonus

Heroic Slash - 4035 / 4195 - 160 dmg bonus

Invasion - 3361 / 3495 - 134 dmg bonus

Reverberating Bash - 2238 / 2327 - 89 dmg bonus

Alliance

Razor Caltrops - 581 / 581

CONCLUSION - This passive works on 8 abilities in the game. All other racial passive work all the time no matter what (eg 9% magicka regen, 21% stamina regen bonus, 12% health, etc etc.). The damage granted from this ability is sad. It makes even the hardest Orcs cry.

Recommended fix!!! Apply the bonus to ALL MELEE skills!!! That means Surprise attack, Killers Blade, Ambush?, and Soul Harvest.

No? Then try this.. Apply the bonus to ALL WEAPON ABILITIES.. This means flying blade, Rapid strikes, Steel Tornado...

No? DIAF!!!

You boost everyone except Orc because no Orcs cry. Thats right Orcs dont cry. This is just plain unfair.

Duuk

Duukar · August 2015

I did a lot of testing here. No answers?

Naslu · August 2015

mhm - tested today with stamplar built and herewith for jabs (oh class skill...) it works as mentioned in tooltip as raw melee damage bonus (so gets buffed by cp's and so on)

jabs basic: 3748 max hit
+ 4% would be additional 149,9 dmg

jabs with orc passive: 4001 max hit
(thats a 252 dmg ingrease)

works !

Duukar · August 2015

So if it works on Templar Class skills why isnt it working on NB class skills!!????

Duukar · August 2015

Did you isolate the Swift Warrior passive? Dont mix up the damage from the 6% bonus stam in there.

F7sus4 · August 2015

Duukar wrote: »

Swift Warrior is unique and interesting. The changes to add 4% to melee attacks just really isn't noticeable. 4% is just very lackluster. While I think ZoS is on the right track with this change I feel like they need to increase the amount of damage.

If 4% is not enough for you, just a small reminder that as much as 5% made Silks of the Sun set so highly desired. It's also the exact same amount of bonus you're getting with e.g. Altmer racial passive on Elemental Damage.

Duukar · August 2015

The problem my testing revealed is that it doesnt apply to sooo many skills. no Buff to Flying blade or any DW direct damage melee ability. that just SUCKS!

Duukar · August 2015

Why doesnt it affect rapid strikes or Flying Blade? Or surprise attack or killers blade? Seriously man. The I would be fine with 4% if it worked across the board.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO · August 2015

Duukar wrote: »

Why doesnt it affect rapid strikes or Flying Blade? Or surprise attack or killers blade? Seriously man. The I would be fine with 4% if it worked across the board.

Because flying blade isn't melee? Never has been. Rapid strikes is probably because it is apparently classified as a DoT (surge testing found this). So it should work with rapid strikes, and a lot of class skills.

Cathexis · August 2015

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

Duukar wrote: »

Why doesnt it affect rapid strikes or Flying Blade? Or surprise attack or killers blade? Seriously man. The I would be fine with 4% if it worked across the board.

Because flying blade isn't melee? Never has been. Rapid strikes is probably because it is apparently classified as a DoT (surge testing found this). So it should work with rapid strikes, and a lot of class skills.

It sucks that this bonus doesn't work with range abilities. I really wish they wouldn't force orcs into melee. Why can't orcs use long range weapons like bows? Its dumb. It should just be a flat damage bonus.

Does it at least work on overload and bash?

Saint_JiubB14_ESO · August 2015

bash probably, Overload hvy maybe? their system for defining 'melee' has never been perfect. TES lore is that orcs are strong in melee.

Kronuxx · August 2015

I've done extensive testing as well using an Orc DK. It pretty much works ONLY on exactly just melee, as in 2 handed and 1 handed, and that's pretty much it. As Duukar noted, DW is spotty and it obviously doesn't work on bow skills and it definitely does not work on class skills that are considered melee, at least as far as DK and NB go. Haven't tried on a Templar yet.

For example testing Unstable flame, as read on the tool tip: http://www.esohead.com/skills/20668-unstable-flame
"New Effect: Ability now scales off Weapon Damage and Max Stamina."
Now keep in mind it's range is 5 meters, while Wrecking Blow's range is 7 meters (For which the passive 4% melee damage bonus does work...well technically it came out to 1.038 and not 1.04).

Testing on level 25 worm cult pyromancer (1) and level 25 skeletal warrior (2) while being a V16 Orc DK.

a) Before placing points into passive Swift Warrior:
1) Wrecking Blow = 4608
2) Wrecking Blow = 4465

b) 1 point in passive leading to a 2% increase in damage:
Again testing Wrecking Blow.
1) Expected damage = 4608 x 1.02 = 4700; Actual damage = 4696
2) Expected damage = 4465 x 1.02 = 4554; Actual damage = 4550

As you can note here for b), the actual damage is 4 less than the expected, ok so no big deal right? Well look what happens when we go to 4%.

c) All 3 points into Swift warrior, 4% damage increase.
1) Expected damage = 4608 x 1.04 = 4792; Actual damage = 4784...I mean yeah, small but now the difference is larger. WTF?
2) Expected damage = 4465 x 1.04 = 4643; Actual damage = 4635...again wtf?

So really 3rd point into swift warrior provides... 4635/4465 = 1.038, also confirmed with 4784/4608 = 1.038.

Now with Unstable Flame there was no difference in damage despite the skill now being based off of weapon damage and stamina, and it's range is less than Wrecking Blow. I mean, I guess it could be considered a spell? But if it was then why the hell make it based off of stamina and weapon damage. Makes no damn sense. If it's not a spell-based skill and not a range-based skill like bows or flying blade (can't be considering other melee skills like 2H, 1H have longer range at times) then what in damn hell is it ZOS? I guess it's just some limbo skill?

Honestly, this swift warrior passive still needs fixing. First of all make it the advertised 4% damage, don't skimp us Orcs out. Make your promise stand as stated in the tooltip. Second of all, make it affect melee based skills other than 2 handed and 1 handed. It just doesn't make sense why it wouldn't affect dual wield or unstable flames. ZOS you guys boggle my mind sometimes.

OrphanHelgen · August 2015

Kronuxx wrote: »

I've done extensive testing as well using an Orc DK. It pretty much works ONLY on exactly just melee, as in 2 handed and 1 handed, and that's pretty much it. As Duukar noted, DW is spotty and it obviously doesn't work on bow skills and it definitely does not work on class skills that are considered melee, at least as far as DK and NB go. Haven't tried on a Templar yet.

For example testing Unstable flame, as read on the tool tip: http://www.esohead.com/skills/20668-unstable-flame
"New Effect: Ability now scales off Weapon Damage and Max Stamina."
Now keep in mind it's range is 5 meters, while Wrecking Blow's range is 7 meters (For which the passive 4% melee damage bonus does work...well technically it came out to 1.038 and not 1.04).

Testing on level 25 worm cult pyromancer (1) and level 25 skeletal warrior (2) while being a V16 Orc DK.

a) Before placing points into passive Swift Warrior:
1) Wrecking Blow = 4608
2) Wrecking Blow = 4465

b) 1 point in passive leading to a 2% increase in damage:
Again testing Wrecking Blow.
1) Expected damage = 4608 x 1.02 = 4700; Actual damage = 4696
2) Expected damage = 4465 x 1.02 = 4554; Actual damage = 4550

As you can note here for b), the actual damage is 4 less than the expected, ok so no big deal right? Well look what happens when we go to 4%.

c) All 3 points into Swift warrior, 4% damage increase.
1) Expected damage = 4608 x 1.04 = 4792; Actual damage = 4784...I mean yeah, small but now the difference is larger. WTF?
2) Expected damage = 4465 x 1.04 = 4643; Actual damage = 4635...again wtf?

So really 3rd point into swift warrior provides... 4635/4465 = 1.038, also confirmed with 4784/4608 = 1.038.

Now with Unstable Flame there was no difference in damage despite the skill now being based off of weapon damage and stamina, and it's range is less than Wrecking Blow. I mean, I guess it could be considered a spell? But if it was then why the hell make it based off of stamina and weapon damage. Makes no damn sense. If it's not a spell-based skill and not a range-based skill like bows or flying blade (can't be considering other melee skills like 2H, 1H have longer range at times) then what in damn hell is it ZOS? I guess it's just some limbo skill?

Honestly, this swift warrior passive still needs fixing. First of all make it the advertised 4% damage, don't skimp us Orcs out. Make your promise stand as stated in the tooltip. Second of all, make it affect melee based skills other than 2 handed and 1 handed. It just doesn't make sense why it wouldn't affect dual wield or unstable flames. ZOS you guys boggle my mind sometimes.

As a Main DD orc DK with 70+ days played, I am really greatful for these *** you are doing.

Sharmony · August 2015

On paper sadly Imperial is still better than Orc...

Duukar · August 2015

I actually enjoy the Robust skill now. 30% combat health regen helps when all other healing is nerfed. This Skill needs to apply to all weapon and class skills with ranges of 7m or less.. that is all..

duuk

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Thanks @Duukar . Too bad about this. Orc really had it's chance to shine if this change had been implemented in an effective way.

Duukar · August 2015

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom should have a look at this!

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Good luck @Duukar , I've been trying to get Obsidian Shard looked at for 2 weeks now.

Duukar · August 2015

I really dont get why they dont drop in here and just make a comment. Even if its a No for now and we will look at it in the future. Just makes me feel like my testing and feedback are wasted.

They have done well on lots of other stuff though. Ive been doing lots of PvP in the imperial city. The feel of the game has improved alot. When you get bursted its not like there is nothing you can do about it anymore. I feel like my burst hasnt gone away completely either. They did well!

Duuk

Waylander · August 2015

It seems to relate to the coding of class abilities that now have stamina morphs (biting jabs needs some data to back that up).

I have noticed some stamina morphs of class abilities can still be negated/silenced (ambush, surprise attack). I assume that any class stamina ability that can be negated will also not get the 4% damage increase.

I think it was probably easier to change some variables in a morph of a skill than to re-write the skill code to ensure it works like a weapon skill. What else might not work as expected with class stamina morphs (do they go against physical resistance, benefit from mighty CP, etc etc) if this passive does not?

I rolled an Orc stamina DK over an Imperial Stamina DK so hoping that it works as intended. Sprint speed buff is nice though.