This guild trader system is so bad.

usrevenge · August 2015

it is a big problem.

it also means small guilds are left in the dust, a 500 person guild will always be better than a 50 person guild.

having a trader means you have more income to spend on traders.

i'm not saying we need a central system, but there has to be a change or it will keep getting worse.

CromulentForumID · August 2015

Greatsword wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

TL;DR - Real world arguments are silly when magic is present.

You probably didn't realize that - while I don't totally disagree with that thought - this was because someone used real world Amazon arguments against the current system?

But since you are biased I am sure you think that real world arguments are only silly if they defend an opinion you are opposed to, otherwise they are ok.
Right?

Not sure how you could determine bias from my comment, since I didn't really advocate for any real point of view, other than to mock using real-world logic.

To answer your question, they are silly no matter when they are used. Yours was just the latest quote. I focused on the "medieval fantasy world" part since that seemed to want to fix any kind of trading system into a historical time window of what should and should not be possible or even "accurate."

k2blader · August 2015

CromulentForumID wrote: »

TL;DR - Real world arguments are silly when magic is present.

Thing is, the brick-n-mortars vs. Amazon.com analogy essentially sums up ESO's commerce issue pretty well. Some people who enjoy a "brick-n-mortar playstyle" like the current guild trader system; whereas those who enjoy an "Amazon playstyle" support an auction house.

Basically it comes down to what you enjoy spending your time on in-game. As an "Amazon person" I want to spend as little time as possible haggling over buying & selling so I can enjoy the actual gameplay. It's a pretty simple concept.

CromulentForumID · August 2015

k2blader wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

TL;DR - Real world arguments are silly when magic is present.

Thing is, the brick-n-mortars vs. Amazon.com analogy essentially sums up ESO's commerce issue pretty well. Some people who enjoy a "brick-n-mortar playstyle" like the current guild trader system; whereas those who enjoy an "Amazon playstyle" support an auction house.

Basically it comes down to what you enjoy spending your time on in-game. As an "Amazon person" I want to spend as little time as possible haggling over buying & selling so I can enjoy the actual gameplay. It's a pretty simple concept.

I must have made my point poorly. Sorry for that. An analogy using real-world terms isn't what I was talking about at all. Analogies are there to help clarify information. I am talking about using historical or real-world arguments against why a centralized auction house can't exist in the game, or would not make any sense. For example:

There is no worldwide communication system. How could the buyer even know the prices!?!

Or

How would the goods even be transported? It's not like we have horses who can teleport!

If I had to pick, I would certainly choose to be smashing enemies instead of running around to different trader tents or spamming voice chat looking for someone to buy my gear. That is my preference, but I recognize I don't speak for all players. I just hate to see even the possibility of any kind of change to the current system dismissed because it is somehow "unrealistic" in a world where we can throw fireballs or teleport across vast distances.

k2blader · August 2015

CromulentForumID wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

TL;DR - Real world arguments are silly when magic is present.

Thing is, the brick-n-mortars vs. Amazon.com analogy essentially sums up ESO's commerce issue pretty well. Some people who enjoy a "brick-n-mortar playstyle" like the current guild trader system; whereas those who enjoy an "Amazon playstyle" support an auction house.

Basically it comes down to what you enjoy spending your time on in-game. As an "Amazon person" I want to spend as little time as possible haggling over buying & selling so I can enjoy the actual gameplay. It's a pretty simple concept.

I must have made my point poorly. Sorry for that. An analogy using real-world terms isn't what I was talking about at all. Analogies are there to help clarify information. I am talking about using historical or real-world arguments against why a centralized auction house can't exist in the game, or would not make any sense. For example:

There is no worldwide communication system. How could the buyer even know the prices!?!

Or

How would the goods even be transported? It's not like we have horses who can teleport!

If I had to pick, I would certainly choose to be smashing enemies instead of running around to different trader tents or spamming voice chat looking for someone to buy my gear. That is my preference, but I recognize I don't speak for all players. I just hate to see even the possibility of any kind of change to the current system dismissed because it is somehow "unrealistic" in a world where we can throw fireballs or teleport across vast distances.

Ahh gotcha. My bad, I was just pulling your TL;DR for quick commentary. :-)

Obviously I'm biased as a supporter of an auction house; but so many people have offered great suggestions on how to improve the current system that I feel there are almost unlimited possibilities as to what could be done, if Zeni really wanted to improve things. I think it's just a matter of time.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

I like the current system. It's effective, gives many people who don't want to invest a lot of time into selling an opportunity to sell, and gives opportunity for consistent, trustworthy guilds with good deals to keep kiosks. What I think they need to do is add more kiosks.

Psychobunni · August 2015

I would rather if at all possible they increased trader number at each kiosk rather than create even more locations to travel to. Even 2 per kiosk would be an improvement.

XarxesTheScribe · August 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I like the current system. It's effective, gives many people who don't want to invest a lot of time into selling an opportunity to sell, and gives opportunity for consistent, trustworthy guilds with good deals to keep kiosks. What I think they need to do is add more kiosks.

Lol, what? None of that is even right.

You want this system because it gives people that don't want to invest time into selling their items a chance to sell them? Have you even used an actual auction house before? Listing items is virtually the same with both.

Gives an opportunity for trustworthy guilds with good deals? A.) Have you seen console prices?! B.) What do you think an auction house does? It creates competition, which maintains price regulation. That's what keeps a free market working.

getmesome2 · August 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I like the current system. It's effective, gives many people who don't want to invest a lot of time into selling an opportunity to sell, and gives opportunity for consistent, trustworthy guilds with good deals to keep kiosks. What I think they need to do is add more kiosks.

time to sell, but how about the time it takes to buy? Or the time it takes admins in guilds to fundraise? This is a full time job almost.

badmojo · August 2015

k2blader wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

I started out liking the guild trader system, but now I wish we had a central auction house, that is so much better.

Zeni could provide an option of a central auction house for people who aren't into guild traders:

- Higher fee & cut to sell items (maybe ~5%)
- Sell item limit of 30 items (same as guild store)

Give us the option and see if guild traders win out. :-)

That's like saying give people the option to vendor gear in their inventory screen, but you get slightly less than visiting an NPC merchant. Everyone is going to mainly use the easier option, but that doesn't mean the NPC merchants are a terrible system that needs to be done away with.

The easier option will always be favored, that doesn't make it automatically better in every way. If players were allowed to dictate just how difficult their games are, those would be some pretty boring game.

Elsonso · August 2015

Enteum wrote: »

Trading Skill Line - Where you can at first buy a little cart and set up shop for a fee (gold sink) for a certain amount of time in a designated market area. As you sell things you gain experience and can get perks likened to crafting. Maybe a stall assistant who will sell for you while you carry on your adventures (like the hireling).

As much as this sounds....dumb? I just like the idea of actually browsing a market for what I wish to buy. As in, literally walking stall to stall.

Guild kiosks allow for 500 people to sell at a specific location. In some places, there are 4 or 5 guild traders, allowing around 2000 players to be selling items at that location.

I like your idea, but how do you scale that up to 100,000 players who want to sell from a little cart in Mournhold? My thought would be that a few carts at a location could act like guild kiosks based on trader skills and players compete for one of 500 spaces on the cart. This essentially makes it a massive guild that competes with the guilds.

wraith808 · August 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Oh, I'd be perfectly happy if they were to /lurk on one of the numerous trading topics that regularly appear here. But they don't, and the only time they address it is on ESO Live when they just say "No auction house" and don't acknowledge the wider issue of the problems even those who like the present system are concerned over, such as the trader UI, search function, inadequate number of traders, the bidding process and so on.

I agree that they can't address every subject, but some are so fundamental and strike at the core of the game that they deserve some official attention and response. It doesn't get more fundamental to a MMO than the economy, and the trading system really is at the core of any such game. When so many people are so regularly raising concerns, they should be addressed.

They do/are reading them. The moment they say "we are looking at this", then it becomes on "on blah date, on X site/twitch, you said you were looking at X...WHEN is it coming?" (I do it too) It is relentless. But they are seeing that not everyone likes this system as is.

Very true. And they are also seeing that a lot of people are vocal on both sides of the subject. So in that case- go with your vision. No matter what they do, they are not going to please everyone. At least a vision of what they want to develop sets clearly their theme for what they want to do for the game, IMO.

Lord Xanhorn · August 2015

k2blader wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

TL;DR - Real world arguments are silly when magic is present.

Thing is, the brick-n-mortars vs. Amazon.com analogy essentially sums up ESO's commerce issue pretty well. Some people who enjoy a "brick-n-mortar playstyle" like the current guild trader system; whereas those who enjoy an "Amazon playstyle" support an auction house.

Basically it comes down to what you enjoy spending your time on in-game. As an "Amazon person" I want to spend as little time as possible haggling over buying & selling so I can enjoy the actual gameplay. It's a pretty simple concept.

This is a great summation and I'm glad you made it.

I clearly am not going to argue with a guy who doesn't understand what the Amazon example meant. People who attack the analogy instead of defending their point are only using misdirection and confusion as a tactic to discredit their opponent rather than actually formulating a counter argument. In these cases its clear their arguments are falling apart and their argument is lost. Therefore its not worth continuing since the my point is already won.

In any event, I suppose some people prefer wasting time in game fumbling around trying to buy and sell things more 'realistically' (whatever that means). I am the type where I'd rather be killing and building my character, not spending hours trying to sell my V12 Necklace of Adroitness to the largest crowd of players as possible.

wraith808 · August 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

TL;DR - Real world arguments are silly when magic is present.

Thing is, the brick-n-mortars vs. Amazon.com analogy essentially sums up ESO's commerce issue pretty well. Some people who enjoy a "brick-n-mortar playstyle" like the current guild trader system; whereas those who enjoy an "Amazon playstyle" support an auction house.

Basically it comes down to what you enjoy spending your time on in-game. As an "Amazon person" I want to spend as little time as possible haggling over buying & selling so I can enjoy the actual gameplay. It's a pretty simple concept.

This is a great summation and I'm glad you made it.

I clearly am not going to argue with a guy who doesn't understand what the Amazon example meant. People who attack the analogy instead of defending their point are only using misdirection and confusion as a tactic to discredit their opponent rather than actually formulating a counter argument. In these cases its clear their arguments are falling apart and their argument is lost. Therefore its not worth continuing since the my point is already won.

In any event, I suppose some people prefer wasting time in game fumbling around trying to buy and sell things more 'realistically' (whatever that means). I am the type where I'd rather be killing and building my character, not spending hours trying to sell my V12 Necklace of Adroitness to the largest crowd of players as possible.

And if they build for *you* like every other game has, then they will not be building for the sizable base that doesn't want an AH. Whereas if they build for that sizable base, they will not be satisfying you and the other base. That's why I don't get the continued argument. They decided one way, and they've said that there will not be an AH. So... now we discuss how to get it more to the middle ground would seem the logical end.

Korah_Eaglecry · August 2015

driosketch wrote: »

QueenAyrenn wrote: »

Bids for some traders are getting close to one million.

Last week my two guilds picked up traders in Shornhelm both for 100g each. You guys fighting over the "Top" spots are going to price yourselves out of business.

How much profit are you and your guildies drawing in over there in Shornhelm? I bet not as much as youd make in Wayrest, Mournhold and so forth.

JDar · August 2015

For people with negotiating skills, business savvy, connections and salesmanship you do just fine in the game. Being a trader is actually a fulfilling and rewarding game experience with its own subculture because of this system. I understand that to many people, that is the game as far as they are concerned.

Korah_Eaglecry · August 2015

The best compromise would be to remove the Trader from the Guilds. Set up the Kiosks in the major cities and the major cities alone. If you wish to sell an item you go to the Trader in a city, pay a listing fee and then the Trader Lists it in the Mini-Auction House. That item can only be viewed and bought from that specific location just as the system works now.

Buyers will still have to travel from City to City to find what it is theyre looking for if someone doesnt list that item in the City theyre currently shopping but it would remove the insane bidding wars that Guilds are currently crumbling under. ZOS would retain a gold sink while removing the threat to Guild Sustainability. Guilds could focus on being the core of the community like they should be and members can feel less pressed to constantly pay a membership tax that might be much higher then what it is theyre making in the Guild Store, if theyre making anything at all.

Major Hubs would actually begin to see consistent buyers/sellers as high demand items would be more readily available and trash items wouldnt dominate the Kiosks search results.

Buyers travel time would be reduced and ZOS gets to avoid the 'dreaded' Auction House as the Traders would be their own self contained Mini Auction Houses but localized.

Its not as if the issue of inflated prices and rigging has been solved with this system. Instead its made it far worse as anyone that wants a cheaper price will have to do extensive travelling to find it. Since you MUST go through a Guild to sell, and that Guild MUST out bid others to get the most optimal location for their wares. With convinence of location, Guild membership fees and Guild Bidding Expenses the prices of items are always going to be more expensive then what it might go for without all of that jacking up the price.

Cherryblossom · August 2015

Greatsword wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

Greatsword wrote: »

Leave the guild trader system alone. I am sick of every other MMO emulating a perfect market competition with symmetric information, perfect transparency and perfect equilibrium prices.

This system feels a lot more real and is about the only sandbox'ish element we've got in our theme park world.

I wish there was a LOL button cause this was funny. Why would anyone ever want to buy and sell as easily as possible.

I mean can you really see a central place that sells a large variety of stuff with convenient delivery options and low prices actually being attractive to consumers? I mean I always go to 10 different websites to buy things rather than just going to Amazon. Its way better to have the hassle and difficulty associated with that. I wish Amazon would just go out of business so we could stop trying to emulate a perfect market competition with symmetric information, perfect transparency and perfect equilibrium price.

You are right, in a medieval fantasy world I want to have a version of Amazon to purchase my stuff.

And damn, I find it so inconvenient to look for bank NPCs I mean "LOL", why not just add online banking?
And what's with all those stupid books and bookshelves? Just replace the whole Mage guild with an ebook reader or even better an ESO version of Wikipedia.

Maybe they should include smartphones and sportscar mounts too while they're at it! Who would ride a horse if they could ride a Ford GT or at least a Fiat Panda? Silly devs. Traveling takes far too long on a horse. In fact I don't want to travel, I just want to sit in a chair with my smartphone and shop for stuff.
I am a lazy person and I want, no I *demand* maximum convenience. I wanna have all the things console gamers and people born in the 90's take for granted because they have never lived in a world without!

PS: Your post make me wish there was a facepalm button

PPS: Not all of us choose to take the "buyer" role in an MMO, some of us prefer to be sellers. Just food for thought.

just on another note some of us like to play the game not the market, as the market is a grind for many it's not worth playing.

Do you actually think it's right that the market should be only available for a small percentage of the community, as that is what the current system is. I would like to see this to be all inclusive, not exclusive to those belonging to the large trading guilds.

There are also many areas of the game which are made void by the current system, ie the lower level found sets, how many times have you found 2 piece's of a set while leveling and wished you could get hold of the other 3 pieces.

Cherryblossom · August 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I like the current system. It's effective, gives many people who don't want to invest a lot of time into selling an opportunity to sell, and gives opportunity for consistent, trustworthy guilds with good deals to keep kiosks. What I think they need to do is add more kiosks.

The current system only give access to a finite number of people, so it does not give the opportunity for everyone to sell, this is the whole issue.

I don't like the current system as I know it's not inclusive, this is a very exclusive club of sellers, which will only get more exclusive as time goes on.

I make a lot of money on the current system, I belong to 3 large trading guilds. I have friends though who have just joined who send me stuff to sell for them as they are unable to find a good trading guild as most are full or have restrictions on who joins.

RobbieRocket · August 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I disagree that current trader system is bad.

I agree that current system of trader biding is flawed..

What on Earth are you saying here? You empathise or you don't because when I read posts like this, it amounts to verbal/written dribble (which I edited for my point).
You, however probably have some good things to say so sort that out and write it.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

XarxesTheScribe wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I like the current system. It's effective, gives many people who don't want to invest a lot of time into selling an opportunity to sell, and gives opportunity for consistent, trustworthy guilds with good deals to keep kiosks. What I think they need to do is add more kiosks.

Lol, what? None of that is even right.

You want this system because it gives people that don't want to invest time into selling their items a chance to sell them? Have you even used an actual auction house before? Listing items is virtually the same with both.

Gives an opportunity for trustworthy guilds with good deals? A.) Have you seen console prices?! B.) What do you think an auction house does? It creates competition, which maintains price regulation. That's what keeps a free market working.

lol, and you're entitled to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. I don't want to see an auction house in this game, personally. I think the system is fine, they just need to add more kiosks.

And as a side note, I don't care about consoles, so that point is irrelevant to me.

King Bozo · August 2015

To many guilds not enough kiosks. We need more spots.

Divinius · August 2015

I've read all the posts in this thread, and most all of the posts in many of the other threads on the topic.

And I honestly have to say, I have yet to see a factual argument against a global AH that can't be easily dismissed using simple common sense or logic.

Sure, there appear to be some very vocal people that want to keep the system as it is because they "prefer" to spend countless hours of their life playing the trading game, and that's a perfectly acceptable reason for them to want to keep it. But I have a very hard time believing that the majority (or even a significantly large percentage, really) of the player-base actually wants to spend so much time in game running around to dozens of kiosks buying and selling.

And yes, there are of course the very vocal subset of players that are raking in tons of cash by successfully exploiting the easily abused current system. They would stand to lose out if a global AH was implemented, since the economy would actually stabilize, and prices of items would equalize to what the laws of supply and demand would dictate, which is likely less than what those few people can get away with selling their overpriced items for currently. So sure, I can see why those people would argue against it too. They aren't arguing for what's best for the game and the player-base as a whole, they are arguing for what's best for themselves.

So if one ignores the people in those two "vocal minority" groups, one can see that all of the remaining arguments about how it would "ruin the economy" or "kill the immersion" or whatever other nonsensical things have been posted throughout this thread and others, are simply logically flawed. Anyone who's played any other game with an AH (or simply taken Economics 101) would see that a global AH would only stabilize a currently chaotic economy, and done right wouldn't negatively affect "immersion" at all.

KiraTsukasa · August 2015

Divinius wrote: »

I've read all the posts in this thread, and most all of the posts in many of the other threads on the topic.

And I honestly have to say, I have yet to see a factual argument against a global AH that can't be easily dismissed using simple common sense or logic.

My thoughts exactly.

Thecapeo · August 2015

The current system is just plain ridiculous to be honest. The only thing myself or any of the people I play with use it for is to find gear with specific traits to keep research going and now that we have enough crafting overlap that we can craft items for each other to research we're hitting the point that we won't use it anymore at all. If, on the other hand, there was an AH we'd use it all the time for mats and such and be selling rather than hoarding/trashing/deconstructing everything. I've sold more stuff to players calling out in area chat in towns and set crafting areas because, sadly, it's easier for them to find what they are looking for that way than port around to city after city, dealing with a ridiculously clunky UI at every kisok, only to be raked over the coals anyway.

Cherryblossom · August 2015

Divinius wrote: »

I've read all the posts in this thread, and most all of the posts in many of the other threads on the topic.

And I honestly have to say, I have yet to see a factual argument against a global AH that can't be easily dismissed using simple common sense or logic.

I have to say I do agree with you, however I do not believe that ZOS is actually capable of creating an Auction House in any sense of the idea, which is why we will not get one.

I think we will need to hope they just make improvements to the current system to make it more inclusive. They have made the original update of the Guild Traders to improve the system, but I think we can all agree that this was just a sticky plaster and they do need to look at this further.

It's a shame that ZOS will not even engage in conversation with the community on this matter, but anyone who has been playing for any length of time and has frequented the forums, would know this how ZOS always operates. So I hope that one day ZOS will realise that by talking with the community they could make this a great game. And I mean proper conversation not /lurk which frankly means nothing or gives no indication of anything.

Elsonso · August 2015

King Bozo wrote: »

To many guilds not enough kiosks. We need more spots.

The game should allow one megaserver to have a different number of traders locations than all of the other megaservers. My thought is that the out-of-the-box base design for the world requires that the same kiosks and NPC traders exist in all worlds on each of the 6 megaservers. Different megaservers have different populations, so it needs to be possible to customize guild trader kiosks for each one.

ZOS really needs to sit down and make some updates to the guild trader system. This will go a long long way to resolving problems that people have with the system. I am sure they know this, but I fear that it could be months before anyone at ZOS has time to take a look at this, if they do it at all.

Cherryblossom · August 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

King Bozo wrote: »

To many guilds not enough kiosks. We need more spots.

The game should allow one megaserver to have a different number of traders locations than all of the other megaservers. My thought is that the out-of-the-box base design for the world requires that the same kiosks and NPC traders exist in all worlds on each of the 6 megaservers. Different megaservers have different populations, so it needs to be possible to customize guild trader kiosks for each one.

ZOS really needs to sit down and make some updates to the guild trader system. This will go a long long way to resolving problems that people have with the system. I am sure they know this, but I fear that it could be months before anyone at ZOS has time to take a look at this, if they do it at all.

You do realise that there is only two Mega Server, one in EU the other in NA....

MakeUcrazY · August 2015

Why not just open the trading system to allow players not in the guild ability to post items for sale on the traders?

I was part of a couple trading guilds for about a month and got tired of the harassment; pricing complaints, not putting anything for sale (I don't always have crap to sell ya know!), one wanting guild dues.

I understand the guild needs to make money to cover the bid but maybe some don't play the game 24/7 and others don't spend their time farming stuff to sell. So, let the guilds have their trading system, let others outside the guild place items for sale, guild still gets percentage, non-guildies still get their stuff sold.

I think this would also open up the variety of items for sale. instead of a crapload of dreugh wax at every stall.

Azurulia · August 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

<snip>

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

Very few, but the ones that could would make an awful lot of money.

That's the only thing you have to remember when reading people's defence of the present trading system.

Pretty much this.

I'm not really a seller due to the fact I make more or less all of my gold from various criminal activities. However, I do buy a whole lot of stuff for my main and my alts. I don't mind so much shopping around for the better deal, not to mention every so often you find those sweet steals laying around that would otherwise be instantly grabbed up in a global market. So there are indeed some perks for te buyer in this market, you just need to shop around. You know, kind of like how we do it in real life.

Unless you just shop at Wal-Mart for everything that is.