Vet Ranks and Champion Points - What's your opinion?

NovaMarx · August 2015

There is so much talk/debate about Veteran Ranks and Champion Points. Some say keep it the way it is, others say remove it all. The devs have been making a lot of "promises" about reworking the system (introducing CP caps, removing the Vet ranking, etc.). But out of curiosity, what do people actually think/want?

Rinmaethodain · August 2015

Everything is good.

People who actually want to put their time into game have some reward for it.

The only problem with CP and VR are lazy people who want to get everything for free, so each time they see someone with higher lvl or more CP, instead of investing their own time into game and working for it, they will just whine that they want CP and VR removed because reasons.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · August 2015

Vet Ranks and Champion Points = Upgrade to more unike, and add more special systems as this.

Ranique · August 2015

I've voted cheese cause I'm dutch.

Also cause I dont think our opinion matters a lot.

The issue is a never ending issue that is caused by a base law bout mmorpg's
"
No studio can develop content as quick as players can play it
"

Why is this the core? cause it is what matters most
In the old fashioned monthly sub mmo's it was important to have a heavy grind so people keep playing. This was often done by an endless gear and stats grind thats never ending. In games without monthly subs (like ESO nowadays) it is less important. People can stop playing when they want and return when they want. Still, having no grind at all isn't good either. The reason is that it would give players no challenge once they've reached vr16. Having an endless grind is no good as well, cause it would make it impossible to take a break at all and that makes people angry as well.

so you need a grind that balances between the two. You need a grind that gives 3 things.
1: it is endless.
2: people who didn't participate with it shouldnt be considered second rated.
3: it should be rewarding.

GW2 tried the approach of esthetics. Although it complies to all three, it wasnt rewarding enough to all players simply cause not everyone is into dress up.

I truly think there is no good system possible that will sattisfy everyone. So one part of me is saying to ditch the entire VR-ranks and championpoints. Another part is saying that as there is no good alternative it should stay as it is.

In essence I think it is like democracy. It is far from a perfect system, but it is the one that is the less damaging and therefor the best.

smokes · August 2015

honestly, i'd remove VR levels and cadwells.

make level cap 50
gear tiers to replace VR gear tiers
cadwells completely optional for skyshards and quest/mob loot
removes grind to win
remove combat bonuses from CP, make it a lot more cosmetic

cadwells broke this game, every band aid applied afterwards broke it even further. the AAA rating is for the amount of times the game has been boned in the pooper.

love the combat in this game, but loathe the management of endgame.

Rev Rielle · August 2015

It is a work in progress. They, Zenimax, however appear to be holding true to what they've said all along: That after significant feedback they are committed to removing Veteran Ranks and replacing them with another system. That system is the Champion Point System.

It's just been taking longer than most expected (likely developers included) due to various reasons.

Sykis · August 2015

Time will tell. I haven't seen anything in the CP systems that makes such a huge difference that I feel I'm never going to catch up or I feel gimped in any way. I had a guy message me the other day, seemingly after I killed one of his toons in Cyrodil, asking how many champion points I had. I lied and told him close to 400. Just to see if he would rage or call me out as I was only VR 6 at the time. No other VR toons as of yet. Wow he started telling me that is why he get destroyed is because he doesn't spend hours grading CPs and on and on. And he was proud to be one of the few VR14s lower then 150 or something CPs. After I let him vent while I checked the status of my crafting I revealed to him his 100+CPs was going against someone who was level scaled up and only had 34 CPs. The VR levels are another deal. While IMO it seems shortsighted to remove a system in game that's already there I do understand the frustration of having to do it once and even more so having to do it up to 7 more times if you level alts. Guess the concern will be, what do they do with Cadwells when they remove the VR system? Leaving it will take up valuable server space for little reason because there would be no incentive for going through it. But taking it out would leave those who would like to go through it with nothing outside of their chosen alliance. This of course will be less of an impact when they make group dungeon/questing cross alliance and have only separations being the PVP content. Either way I'm fine with what they do. I love the game and will continue playing until it is no longer fun for me. I don't get to worked up over changes as in a year or two most of those changes will be meaningless as they are over shadowed by further changes so I adapt to whatever comes. I learned this years ago in other MMOs and just roll with the punches.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2015

To me it would be totally messed up to plan out how to remove VR levels and during those phases lay out the implementation of CP's but then later go back and remove CP's

The removal of VR levels opens up a lot of good and natural end game progression for those traditional MMO fans as well as opens up endless possibilities for the traditional TES fan. Then there are the gamers who are in both or neither of those categories....they too benefit from a game that at level 50 allows each character to be involved or opt out of different content but where the CP's gained allow their account to be apart of many parts of the game without feeling months behind if they make and alt.

To me...many customers will need to come to the realization that this game is and will not work and play like a traditional MMO, or like a traditional TES game. Whatever that may mean to each person and however that's taken, should provide allowances to be VERY open minded but hold onto the information that we hear and see via data-mined content and ESO Live episodes.

Atarax · August 2015

Looking forward to when they remove Vet ranks. I like the champion point system, but there needs to be a catchup mechanism for new joiners/ those who need to take long breaks.

Sausage · August 2015

I listen Zen. Sure two vision collide, but its Zen's choice ultimately.

urkonse · August 2015

those are PERFECT atm. just balance pvp.
also vet ranks are better than CP system

Anzriel · August 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

To me it would be totally *** to plan out how to remove VR levels and during those phases lay out the implementation of CP's but then later go back and remove CP's

The removal of VR levels opens up a lot of good and natural end game progression for those traditional MMO fans as well as opens up endless possibilities for the traditional TES fan. Then there are the gamers who are in both or neither of those categories....they too benefit from a game that at level 50 allows each character to be involved or opt out of different content but where the CP's gained allow their account to be apart of many parts of the game without feeling months behind if they make and alt.

To me...many customers will need to come to the realization that this game is and will not work and play like a traditional MMO, or like a traditional TES game. Whatever that may mean to each person and however that's taken, should provide allowances to be VERY open minded but hold onto the information that we hear and see via data-mined content and ESO Live episodes.

Indeed, and ZoS seems to at least mention that they are aware of the issues with CP such as mentioning seasons and such, we just have to wait and see what they do before we make any judgements, and if we see flaws in the system give constructive feedback. I personally like that this game is different from traditional MMOs, we'll see how many others agree over time.

ArchGrizzlyOp · August 2015

Vet ranks should be optional in my opinion,
Like once you reach level 50 you should have the option to prestige in V1 like that but that's just my opinion

slumber_sandb16_ESO · August 2015

I wouldn't mind vet ranks so much if the xp aquired from the zones would match it. I would finish a zone at v1 and go to a v2 zone with only 50% xp. If I would get a full veteran rank for each zone then at least I would get to max veteran rank by playing through the game.
Also Craglorn kinda sucks for solo players. Tried finding groups for it but nearly impossible for me to find people with the same quests. So all I can do is grind xp to get to veteran rank 14.

Can just say I'm looking forward to Orsinium and I hope its more solo friendly than Craglorn.

markt84 · August 2015

I don't see any problem with vet ranks, every rank gives you a tiny boost with 122 in health, stam, or magic and the ability to wear better gear. And gear gives you a really good boost and the resource boost is good to feel like ur getting maginally better but better non the less. CPs need to go, and if they do stay because they aren't going anywhere, need to be capped at like 250 on consoles, and increase every dlc, like has been suggest in these threads

Gidorick · August 2015

First, an aggressive CP catch up mechanic should be implemented...
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

I pretty much think Vet Ranks should be converted to regular levels...
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1

Then regular level caps independent of DLC releases should be implemented...
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept

Then players can play and grind all they want and the CP gap will go away.

Audigy · August 2015

I like the idea of Veteran Ranks.

Whenever a new content patch comes out, we players are able to explore its zone and level our chars further. I just think that this "leveling" could be improved a bit, so that we get one or two new skill lines per zone, that are specific to that zone. Besides that, our current skills could be upgraded further, maybe an additional morph?

In my opinion, the VR´s right now have too less of an impact on our characters, its mostly about a new gear set and for this alone, the Veteran Ranks seem a bit pointless.

As for the CP system,

I have my problems with it, as its all about more damage, more health, faster running ... While these things are not bad per se, I really wish we would have some social perks as well. A perk for instance could be about reputation, so that we unlock new quests over time. Or we could gain access to additional player housing options (once we have an actual housing system). New furnage, larger quests for bigger homes ...

For me a system like the CS, should reflect how far we played through the game and what we did there so far. I just think only giving us more power is a bit one sided, especially as someone could theoretically grind mobs for a year and have more points than someone who actually played through the game.

markt84 · August 2015

Audigy wrote: »

I like the idea of Veteran Ranks.

Whenever a new content patch comes out, we players are able to explore its zone and level our chars further. I just think that this "leveling" could be improved a bit, so that we get one or two new skill lines per zone, that are specific to that zone. Besides that, our current skills could be upgraded further, maybe an additional morph?

In my opinion, the VR´s right now have too less of an impact on our characters, its mostly about a new gear set and for this alone, the Veteran Ranks seem a bit pointless.

As for the CP system,

I have my problems with it, as its all about more damage, more health, faster running ... While these things are not bad per se, I really wish we would have some social perks as well. A perk for instance could be about reputation, so that we unlock new quests over time. Or we could gain access to additional player housing options (once we have an actual housing system). New furnage, larger quests for bigger homes ...

For me a system like the CS, should reflect how far we played through the game and what we did there so far. I just think only giving us more power is a bit one sided, especially as someone could theoretically grind mobs for a year and have more points than someone who actually played through the game.

This game rewards grinding over playing the game

EQBallzz · August 2015

I think it's fine to keep both but they shouldn't raise vet ranks that often and when they do they should continue to scale everything so they don't make previous content obsolete. The power gap created by the CS is an issue they should address but not sure how.

I think instead of capping people on the upper end of the system and punishing them for playing more or starting earlier in the system they should do the reverse and just make XP gain at an accelerated rate up to X number of CP and then each season they could bump up that number a bit so anyone with less than that number of CP will still have to earn it but can at least earn at an accelerated rate to close the gap. The diminishing returns on CP should suffice to narrow the gap further.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2015

Anzriel wrote: »

show previous quotes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

To me it would be totally *** to plan out how to remove VR levels and during those phases lay out the implementation of CP's but then later go back and remove CP's

The removal of VR levels opens up a lot of good and natural end game progression for those traditional MMO fans as well as opens up endless possibilities for the traditional TES fan. Then there are the gamers who are in both or neither of those categories....they too benefit from a game that at level 50 allows each character to be involved or opt out of different content but where the CP's gained allow their account to be apart of many parts of the game without feeling months behind if they make and alt.

To me...many customers will need to come to the realization that this game is and will not work and play like a traditional MMO, or like a traditional TES game. Whatever that may mean to each person and however that's taken, should provide allowances to be VERY open minded but hold onto the information that we hear and see via data-mined content and ESO Live episodes.

Indeed, and ZoS seems to at least mention that they are aware of the issues with CP such as mentioning seasons and such, we just have to wait and see what they do before we make any judgements, and if we see flaws in the system give constructive feedback. I personally like that this game is different from traditional MMOs, we'll see how many others agree over time.

I have to disagree that ZOS needs to mention anything around a customers concern or opinion.

If and when any company wants to go public, I think all customers are pleased as well as upset or caught off guard. If the company decides to make changes, they will share this but if not, that's their business.

We don't have stock nor do we work for them so as a customer...anything extra is bonus but anything less is none of my business. That's what the forums are for ....we can talk about those things amongst each other.

If they step in...O K but if not O K.

Tolmos · August 2015

I would prefer if they leave CP for people who want the PvE progression, but either remove it from PvP entirely or create campaigns that are free of CP.

Paradox · August 2015

I love the concept of CP. It's a great idea for progressing your characters... But it's just extremely unfair to people that don't have or want to spend 50 hours a week grinding for CP. I don't mind that people do so, but we need a catchup mechanic to bridge the gap between the tiers of CP.

Now we wait for the fools that only listen to the theory of CP and that chart to base all of their opinions on CP and this statement on :diminishing returns'... Which is just hilarious because it doesn't matter if there are diminishing returns when you're already at such a huge advantage over new players, and those who don't grind CP.

Denssor · August 2015

Not sure why everyone wants veteran ranks to go away. The majority of complaints I hear about them is Cadwell's Silver/Gold and the XP grind. Neither of which is a problem with the veteran ranks themselves. ZOS just needs to add more content for VR 1-10, and make changes to the amount of XP needed and/or given (which they are in the next update). Maybe change it from veteran ranks to just levels, but it will be exactly the same.

Champion points on the other hand are stupid. There is no way to catch up to those with tons of CP, half of the perks are broken, and they have very little as far as diminishing returns are concerned. I rather them just scrap this junk completely or add severe diminishing returns so the difference between 300 CP and 1000 CP is less than 1% difference in power. Scraping it would be easier and faster, and this way they can start working on more content sooner.

Tolmos · August 2015

Denssor wrote: »

Not sure why everyone wants veteran ranks to go away. The majority of complaints I hear about them is Cadwell's Silver/Gold and the XP grind. Neither of which is a problem with the veteran ranks themselves. ZOS just needs to add more content for VR 1-10, and make changes to the amount of XP needed and/or given (which they are in the next update). Maybe change it from veteran ranks to just levels, but it will be exactly the same.

I think the concept of Veteran Ranks should probably go and be replaced with levels; no change in the XP from 1-VR16, and no change in the gear, but just a removal of the actual post 50 system. I can't tell you how many disappointed lowbies I've run across who found out that level 50, or "Max level" as they try to call it, is nowhere near the end of their leveling journey. It's not the fact that leveling persists past 50, but just that this is so terribly unclear by the way the system is laid out.

markt84 · August 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

show previous quotes

Denssor wrote: »

Not sure why everyone wants veteran ranks to go away. The majority of complaints I hear about them is Cadwell's Silver/Gold and the XP grind. Neither of which is a problem with the veteran ranks themselves. ZOS just needs to add more content for VR 1-10, and make changes to the amount of XP needed and/or given (which they are in the next update). Maybe change it from veteran ranks to just levels, but it will be exactly the same.

I think the concept of Veteran Ranks should probably go and be replaced with levels; no change in the XP from 1-VR16, and no change in the gear, but just a removal of the actual post 50 system. I can't tell you how many disappointed lowbies I've run across who found out that level 50, or "Max level" as they try to call it, is nowhere near the end of their leveling journey. It's not the fact that leveling persists past 50, but just that this is so terribly unclear by the way the system is laid out.

How can anyone think it stops at 50 when you see vets running around everywhere?

Tolmos · August 2015

markt84 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tolmos wrote: »

Denssor wrote: »

Not sure why everyone wants veteran ranks to go away. The majority of complaints I hear about them is Cadwell's Silver/Gold and the XP grind. Neither of which is a problem with the veteran ranks themselves. ZOS just needs to add more content for VR 1-10, and make changes to the amount of XP needed and/or given (which they are in the next update). Maybe change it from veteran ranks to just levels, but it will be exactly the same.

I think the concept of Veteran Ranks should probably go and be replaced with levels; no change in the XP from 1-VR16, and no change in the gear, but just a removal of the actual post 50 system. I can't tell you how many disappointed lowbies I've run across who found out that level 50, or "Max level" as they try to call it, is nowhere near the end of their leveling journey. It's not the fact that leveling persists past 50, but just that this is so terribly unclear by the way the system is laid out.

How can anyone think it stops at 50 when you see vets running around everywhere?

Again- it's clear as mud. Veteran ranks sound like something you would attain after reaching max level; more of a "post max" system for "veteran" players to continue progressing in some way.

In actuality, it's really just levels 51-150 (if you scale it compared to 1-50). Having 1-50 and Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 instead of having 1-150 (or whatever they scale it down to) is as inefficient as calling the number 6 "half a dozen".

Just say 6.

Kavatchian · August 2015

I'm not sure I have enough experience to have a say so in whether or not things should be removed or changed. I only have one character who is a VR1. So far I don't see a issue with it other than the Champion points get confusing.

Why is it at Veteran we get access to a skill tree? Seems like the Champion points are out of place when you get so use to the starting level procedure for your skills. They could have easily given us this skill tree in the very start of the game That way we could mold our character more. I also don't like how I'm forced to use all three champion skill lines. Maybe I just want to put all my points into one skill line?

Like I said maybe this was done for other reasons I'm not sure. However, just seems like it could have been done differently.

Denssor · August 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

show previous quotes

Denssor wrote: »

Not sure why everyone wants veteran ranks to go away. The majority of complaints I hear about them is Cadwell's Silver/Gold and the XP grind. Neither of which is a problem with the veteran ranks themselves. ZOS just needs to add more content for VR 1-10, and make changes to the amount of XP needed and/or given (which they are in the next update). Maybe change it from veteran ranks to just levels, but it will be exactly the same.

I think the concept of Veteran Ranks should probably go and be replaced with levels; no change in the XP from 1-VR16, and no change in the gear, but just a removal of the actual post 50 system. I can't tell you how many disappointed lowbies I've run across who found out that level 50, or "Max level" as they try to call it, is nowhere near the end of their leveling journey. It's not the fact that leveling persists past 50, but just that this is so terribly unclear by the way the system is laid out.

That makes sense, I can see how it might confuse people. Changing the veteran ranks to levels would be (should be at least) an easy fix.

Troneon · August 2015

Remove Vet Ranks and lower the Champion Point Cap to 300, then rebalance the points/stats so 300 points is the same as the max cap right now.

That way grinders hit cap quicker still but also casual players would be full cap in less than a year of playing...

It would also force more build diversity with champion points rather than the current of just put points into everything and unlock everything...

Achromatis · August 2015

VR really only exists as a gear treadmill, the system doesn't add anything to the game experience itself beyond that IMHO.

I think VR was fine originally but now we will have new content coming out and the VR grind would just be stupid. Having content and gear be obsolete sucks but the Champion system will still give people a reason to go and do "old" content, but without stopping them from doing the new stuff with their friends/guild regardless of that persons previous game experience.

All the VR levels do now is make people go out and solo grind some more before they can start actually playing, which a lot of people do not like being forced into considering its an MMO. You want people to WANT to play, hitting 50 and seeing how VR levels work does not make people want to play. Besides, having VR16 in no way indicates you are a more skilled/experience player than someone who is VR1 in anything besides having spammed Biting Jabs more times.

New gear is inherently gated through RNG or farming materials or PvPing anyway. You could add an item level check/gate on content if you want, but I think that would be unnecessary.

IMO anyway. I'm a returning player and not even VR1 yet so what would I know.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2015

Denssor wrote: »

Not sure why everyone wants veteran ranks to go away. The majority of complaints I hear about them is Cadwell's Silver/Gold and the XP grind. Neither of which is a problem with the veteran ranks themselves. ZOS just needs to add more content for VR 1-10, and make changes to the amount of XP needed and/or given (which they are in the next update). Maybe change it from veteran ranks to just levels, but it will be exactly the same.

Champion points on the other hand are stupid. There is no way to catch up to those with tons of CP, half of the perks are broken, and they have very little as far as diminishing returns are concerned. I rather them just scrap this junk completely or add severe diminishing returns so the difference between 300 CP and 1000 CP is less than 1% difference in power. Scraping it would be easier and faster, and this way they can start working on more content sooner.

The silver and gold quests aren't actually an issue at all IF VR levels were removed.
Then those areas become optional content to play or skip depending upon someone's desires. Veteran Levels 1 - 10 are the issue.

If the game literally was levels 1 - 54 it would be a lot better overall but adding more levels isn't a fix.
VR 1 - 10 is an concern or issue for me, as well as the VR 11 - 14 which is in some cases Craglorn only but Craglorn is fun to me and decent PvE group content and a change from the 1 - VR10 way of things.

Changing he exp gain creates another issue as ppl out level content.
Just remove the dang VR levels and let ppl play post 50 with CP's and enjoy the rest as it fits.

Lower Craglorn to level VR2 -VR4 or what would be character levels 52 - 55 or so.

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Vet Ranks and Champion Points - What's your opinion?

Vet Ranks and Champion Points - What's your opinion? 134 votes