Argonian Feedback + Suggestions

Vernius · August 2015

The first "buff" to argonians was adding a mere 2% to their potion passive which was almost insulting. We have imperials sitting here with 10% max stamina and 12% max health or high elves with 9% magicka recovery and 10% max magicka, but hey, at least argonians regain 8% of all stats when drinking a potion. To demonstrate how little 8% is, if we take an argonian who has 25k magicka, 20k health, and 10k stamina and is able to drink a potion every 40 seconds to regain 8%, they would regain 2k magicka, 1.6k health, and 800 stamina every 40 seconds. To put it in terms of regen (assuming the player drinks a potion every 40 seconds), this argonian would have 50+ magicka regen, 40+ health regen, and 20+ stamina regen. Not very good, especially in this new meta.

However, in the next patch Argonians will have 9% increased healing received (3% buff) and 6% max health (3% buff). Although it's a step in the right direction, I believe it's not good enough. According to lore, argonians are the best healers and I see ZOS understands this as they are given 15% increased experience to resto staff. What I don't understand is, why their passive only allows them to receive 9% increased healing? Argonians should be able to heal 9% more. If someones going to be healer, most likely they're going to need some magicka, so instead of 6% max health why not give argonians 6% max magicka? Lastly, argonians have scales, and a passive addresses that and gives poison and disease resistance. It would make more sense, however, if they received physical and spell resistance instead of poison and disease.

That's just my feedback and suggestions however, I believe argonians deserve a little love and should be more comparable with other races. If I did anything wrong (bad calculations, incorrect information, etc.) feel free to call me out or if you have changes to my suggestions, let me know!

To clarify and summarize, I believe argonian passives should represent something similar to this:
Quick to Mend: Increases healing done by 9%
Argonian Resistance: Increases max magicka by 6% and physical and spell resistance by X amount.
Amphibious: Increases swimming speed by 50% and whenever you drink a potion you gain (something higher than 8)% of your max health, magicka and stamina.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

The problem with this is that it only helps one playstyle and also lore has Argonians as healers and stealthy warriors, they are also adapted to a poisonous environment where health and poison / disease resistance is vital. So although I agree that Argonians are still lacking in racial passive punch, I don't agree with any of the suggestions except improving the potion passive.

Personally I would simply add to healing done to the quick to mend passive making it 6% and 6% - which would suit more playstyles.

cazlonb16_ESO · August 2015

While this would be a substantial improvement for Argonians, it would only add to the core problem of racial imbalances. Having differences so strong they make certain races almost required to play certain builds is bad design, goes completely against "play the way you want" and certainly won't be helped by creating another such combination.

"lf1m healer Gold, Arg Temp only"

Aquanova · August 2015

I just want race change already. ZOS'S so called "tweak" for racial passives in 1.7 are a joke. You telling me they actually had a group of ppl sit down, discuss these "tweaks" and then say "yes! this seems fair and balanced"? It's like they don't even know their own game and what effects what. Race change please!

Tonnopesce · August 2015

Nobody play as an argonian for anything but lore.
This is the MAIN problem, we dont have cryed enought .

Night-claw · August 2015

I play argonain cus i like the race not for lore and i mostly pvp and i can tell you the passives rubbish im waiting to were argonains are up there with the rest of the races although i like were zos is going with the healing etc but we still need more love

Stinkur · August 2015

Where do you see Argonians get anything more then the junky potions increase? I'm on PTS and thats all we got. A boost to potion passive, so our increase passive is tied to spending cash on potions. Worst "tweak" ever!

A passive boost that costs cash to use!!!

Personally if they kept our passives as is but boosted the others ones to I would settle.
Max Health +3% making it 6%. This allows for more customization in how we spend stat points a little more.
Poison/Disease- boost to 2k or 2462, not many things use disease and poison cept Bow skills. We are supposed to be hardy and resistable to poisons and disease, well MAKE it so.
Quick to Mend: boost it to 9%

tinythinker · August 2015

Naw, the healing received reflects their connection to the Hist and its actually very nice in the game as it is useful for any build. If it's one or the other I vote for healing received for Mending. And Resistance should stay as Disease/Poison, which fits the lore. Buffing those resistances would be nice, so that will points in the right CS passive and jewelry an Argonian could really be immune to either poison or disease (depending on the enchants used) and still super resistant to the other, but for a change that is supposed to help balance things out a bit until a bigger redesign, buffing two important stats in the Argonian passives is great. Can't wait to try them out.

tinythinker · August 2015

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Nobody play as an argonian for anything but lore.
This is the MAIN problem, we dont have cryed enought .

Keturah · August 2015

as a argonian player since release i find this change good. even though its against some lore at least we got some love! they cant give us everything but its a step in the right direction.

Darkonflare15 · August 2015

Stinkur wrote: »

Where do you see Argonians get anything more then the junky potions increase? I'm on PTS and thats all we got. A boost to potion passive, so our increase passive is tied to spending cash on potions. Worst "tweak" ever!

A passive boost that costs cash to use!!!

Personally if they kept our passives as is but boosted the others ones to I would settle.
Max Health +3% making it 6%. This allows for more customization in how we spend stat points a little more.
Poison/Disease- boost to 2k or 2462, not many things use disease and poison cept Bow skills. We are supposed to be hardy and resistable to poisons and disease, well MAKE it so.
Quick to Mend: boost it to 9%

Ummm..they release information yesterday on the quake com QA sessions that took the place of Eso Live. That is what they stated that Quick to Mend is boost to 9%, and Max health 6%.

Vernius wrote: »

The first "buff" to argonians was adding a mere 2% to their potion passive which was almost insulting. We have imperials sitting here with 10% max stamina and 12% max health or high elves with 9% magicka recovery and 10% max magicka, but hey, at least argonians regain 8% of all stats when drinking a potion. To demonstrate how little 8% is, if we take an argonian who has 25k magicka, 20k health, and 10k stamina and is able to drink a potion every 40 seconds to regain 8%, they would regain 2k magicka, 1.6k health, and 800 stamina every 40 seconds. To put it in terms of regen (assuming the player drinks a potion every 40 seconds), this argonian would have 50+ magicka regen, 40+ health regen, and 20+ stamina regen. Not very good, especially in this new meta.

However, in the next patch Argonians will have 9% increased healing received (3% buff) and 6% max health (3% buff). Although it's a step in the right direction, I believe it's not good enough. According to lore, argonians are the best healers and I see ZOS understands this as they are given 15% increased experience to resto staff. What I don't understand is, why their passive only allows them to receive 9% increased healing? Argonians should be able to heal 9% more. If someones going to be healer, most likely they're going to need some magicka, so instead of 6% max health why not give argonians 6% max magicka? Lastly, argonians have scales, and a passive addresses that and gives poison and disease resistance. It would make more sense, however, if they received physical and spell resistance instead of poison and disease.

That's just my feedback and suggestions however, I believe argonians deserve a little love and should be more comparable with other races. If I did anything wrong (bad calculations, incorrect information, etc.) feel free to call me out or if you have changes to my suggestions, let me know!

To clarify and summarize, I believe argonian passives should represent something similar to this:
Quick to Mend: Increases healing done by 9%
Argonian Resistance: Increases max magicka by 6% and physical and spell resistance by X amount.
Amphibious: Increases swimming speed by 50% and whenever you drink a potion you gain (something higher than 8)% of your max health, magicka and stamina.

To be honest Argonians are suppose be a survival race. They lived in a province where everything tries to kill them. They also considered idea slaves for the dark elves. They can endure everything and they also very close to nature hence why Zos gave them the passive to increase how much resources they can get back from a potion. It makes better since for Argonians to have more health than magicka.

Stinkur · August 2015

Oh nice then if they boosting the others, health and heal recvd.

Now just boost resistance to disease/poison and I would be a happy camper. Another 500ish to 1k to those resists.

Tonnopesce · August 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Nobody play as an argonian for anything but lore.
This is the MAIN problem, we dont have cryed enought .

This is a partial list of the threads that had been made of as a few months ago in which people complained about/asked for changes to Argonian passives (not any newer ones since):

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162869/bug-nb-catalyst-passive

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/65730/any-news-on-argonians-racial-skill-buffs/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162238/i-cant-take-it-argonian-is-soooo-bad-compared-to-other-races

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151415/1-6-changes-to-potions-and-related-passives-abilities-issues-and-possible-solutions

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154490/change-to-argonians-best-passive-still-not-in-the-notes#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154004/zenimax-please-reconsider-argonian-racial-passives/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154048/how-come-racials-werent-given-a-pass-in-1-6-zos

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153268/my-case-for-race-change-option-in-1-6/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152091/racial-disparity-with-full-list/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150659/lets-talk-about-argonians-race-change-please/p1

Well plz ceck the sorcerer threads before 1.6 and see how much they have cried to become totally OP

SkylarkAU · August 2015

I don't have an Argonian character so I don't speak on anyones behalf but I always thought it would be cool to replace the Amphibious passive with something like Scale Hide, which would increase resistance to arrow or projectile attacks by x percentage.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

Stinkur wrote: »

Where do you see Argonians get anything more then the junky potions increase? I'm on PTS and thats all we got. A boost to potion passive, so our increase passive is tied to spending cash on potions. Worst "tweak" ever!

A passive boost that costs cash to use!!!

Personally if they kept our passives as is but boosted the others ones to I would settle.
Max Health +3% making it 6%. This allows for more customization in how we spend stat points a little more.
Poison/Disease- boost to 2k or 2462, not many things use disease and poison cept Bow skills. We are supposed to be hardy and resistable to poisons and disease, well MAKE it so.
Quick to Mend: boost it to 9%

This is exactly what they announced last night on ESO Live that they are going to do on the next PTS patch: Increase max hp to 6% and healing received to 9%. I would argue though that in order to be competitive with other high-power races that benefit from having both +stat and +regen, that healing received should be at least 12% and/or also count toward healing done.

timidobserver · August 2015

Whoever made the decision that they can only buff what is already there made a bad decision. They could buff the healing received to 15%, the max health to 15%, and the swim speed to 800%, and I still wouldn't roll an argonian. What is already there just isn't sufficient.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

6% health is welcomed, and 9% healing received. But I don't think this is going to shift Argonian from the bottom of the racial pile...

MorHawk · August 2015

I can never help but laugh at this point whenever anyone suggests that we give the devs feedback. It's been over a year, they know exactly how we feel about this.

Verrask · August 2015

All ZoS developers need to do is try to make a relevant Argonian build and try to fit it somewhere in the game. When you can't do that, then there is something horribly wrong. They nerfed the importance of potions to the ground, they nerfed the lock on primary healer (the Argonian Templar), but they never gave anything back.

Just make my day 1 Argonian Templar what it was suppose to be: Someone that can actually be accepted in pvp/pve groups.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

Verrask wrote: »

All ZoS developers need to do is try to make a relevant Argonian build and try to fit it somewhere in the game. When you can't do that, then there is something horribly wrong. They nerfed the importance of potions to the ground, they nerfed the lock on primary healer (the Argonian Templar), but they never gave anything back.

Just make my day 1 Argonian Templar what it was suppose to be: Someone that can actually be accepted in pvp/pve groups.

Make the passive 9% to healing received and healing given. Done and done, Argonians would be actually competitive.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

9% and 9% sold to @ThatNeonZebraAgain
Also up potion passive to 10% at least.

PlagueMonk · August 2015

I am going to post what I posted pre-1.6 since apparently Zenimax is still resistant to placing Argonians on an even footing with other races.....

PLEASE ditch the lame potion buff. You gutted the hell out of it in 1.6 so just let it die since you ae never going ot give us back what we had pre1.6

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen (7/14/21)%

Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

I would admittedly like to replace health regen with stamina but I don't see that happening so we are stuck with health buffs, the weakest of the 3 attributes to buff.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

Well as I said if ZoS wants to keep this potion thing in they have to change it to all forms of potions be detect, stealth, immoveable and so get a say 40% boost. That way it can stack with the alchemy passive medical use to give Argonians a 70% boost to all potions they drink instead of health potions. It will turn there 12 second stealth potion into and 20 second potion which yes some may say is OP but seeing how Argonians need all the help they can get cause they don't have any other passives that are much use for combat like Altmers with spells or Nords with damage reduction.

Verrask · August 2015

How many other races are directly reliant on a consumable for part of their built-in game mechanic?

It either has to be really worth burning through potions or dumped to bring it in line with the other. It was really worth it, but ZoS sent a very clear message they didn't want to go that route. They need to kill the potion dependency and move on to something useful.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

Verrask wrote: »

How many other races are directly reliant on a consumable for part of their built-in game mechanic?

It either has to be really worth burning through potions or dumped to bring it in line with the other. It was really worth it, but ZoS sent a very clear message they didn't want to go that route. They need to kill the potion dependency and move on to something useful.

Not just that, but one with a huge cooldown! It wasn't just potion effectiveness that nerfed Argonians in 1.6, it was the 15 second increase to the cooldown and combining potion regen effects into the Major/Minor buff system.

From the last ESO Live, it is clear they are adamant about trying to stick with the original theme for Argonians, saying they prefer to buff what's there rather than completely overhauling. So, to make the potion passive worthwhile, I think the potion return should be at least 10%, but also have an added passive that reduces potion cooldown by 5/10/15 seconds. Then, Argonians could stack potion speed jewelry enchants again to get it back down to a possible 15 second cooldown. Obviously what's important here is not the regen buff since that lasts so long anyways, but the initial stat replenish and other effects that would help make Argonians competitive again (especially Argonian NBs that relied on potion effectiveness stacking for a reliable burst heal). Oh, and still make it 9% healing received and given

PlagueMonk · August 2015

Verrask wrote: »

How many other races are directly reliant on a consumable for part of their built-in game mechanic?

It either has to be really worth burning through potions or dumped to bring it in line with the other. It was really worth it, but ZoS sent a very clear message they didn't want to go that route. They need to kill the potion dependency and move on to something useful.

Yes, this is an excellent point. I guess it was ok because the buff was decent but once 1.6 hit live it is now a useless crutch.

No other race relies on spending resources to get their buff......WHY DO WE? I don't see HE need to eat food to get that HUGE magicka buff so WHY DO ARGONIANS?

I'm every tired of scraping the bottom of the racial barrel just because I like playing Lizards. ALL races should have buffs equal to what Imperials have (especially now that playing an IMP isn't special anymore because of the Crown store)

Junkogen · August 2015

We're doomed. They're never going to change the passives. It's clear that none of the developers main an Argonian. As people have said previously, the problem is that the passives themselves are inferior. Max stats, regen, and cost reductions are what matter most. Giving Argonians a passive that is tied to a consumable is imbalanced in itself. If I run out of potions, my passive becomes useless. Also, it takes time, efort, and gold to maintain. No other passive is so restricted.

Healing received at 9% is still not great. It's strange that they're being so dang stingy with the Argonian passives. They're so marginally usefully compared to other passives that the numbers should be like 15% or something. The Bosmer have 21% stamina regen!?! I just don't get what the developers are thinking. Are they that dense? Can they really not see the huge difference?

I really just have no hope for Argonians. I picked an Argonian NB at launch, ZOS broke them, and now I'm stuck with a VR crafter and forced to redo content. It's a struggle to even play anymore.

Junkogen · August 2015

Verrask wrote: »

How many other races are directly reliant on a consumable for part of their built-in game mechanic?

It either has to be really worth burning through potions or dumped to bring it in line with the other. It was really worth it, but ZoS sent a very clear message they didn't want to go that route. They need to kill the potion dependency and move on to something useful.

I cannot agree more. They killed the potion passive when they ruined the NB catalyst passive. When they did that they should have just thrown out the passive. It will never happen, though. It's clear they want to take the laziest route possible.

Junkogen · August 2015

@ZOS_RichLambert

It seems like Rich really listens to feedback. If you're reading this, Rich, could you get on Eric Wrobel about the Argonian passive problem? Make him spend time redesigning the passives to make them as useful as other races' passives.

Seriously. This issue has been a huge contributor to my burn out with ESO. Please help us.

Thank you.

PlagueMonk · August 2015

Any feedback on this topic from a Dev??? I would really like to know how they think the Argonian racials are even in the same league as HEs or Imps.

It sucks that not a single site about character builds recommends Argonians for A N Y T H I N G. It would be nice to be good at something.

Junkogen wrote: »

We're doomed. They're never going to change the passives. It's clear that none of the developers main an Argonian. As people have said previously, the problem is that the passives themselves are inferior. Max stats, regen, and cost reductions are what matter most. Giving Argonians a passive that is tied to a consumable is imbalanced in itself. If I run out of potions, my passive becomes useless. Also, it takes time, efort, and gold to maintain. No other passive is so restricted.

Healing received at 9% is still not great. It's strange that they're being so dang stingy with the Argonian passives. They're so marginally usefully compared to other passives that the numbers should be like 15% or something. The Bosmer have 21% stamina regen!?! I just don't get what the developers are thinking. Are they that dense? Can they really not see the huge difference?

I really just have no hope for Argonians. I picked an Argonian NB at launch, ZOS broke them, and now I'm stuck with a VR crafter and forced to redo content. It's a struggle to even play anymore.

Oh didn't you know the Devs think that +50% swimming increase somehow equals +12% to max magicka?.......in fact 50% > 12% so they should probably nerf that swim speed down to 12% to be in line with that HE max magicka ability (because they have the same level of usefulness....right?)

Junkogen · August 2015

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Any feedback on this topic from a Dev??? I would really like to know how they think the Argonian racials are even in the same league as HEs or Imps.

It sucks that not a single site about character builds recommends Argonians for A N Y T H I N G. It would be nice to be good at something.

Junkogen wrote: »

We're doomed. They're never going to change the passives. It's clear that none of the developers main an Argonian. As people have said previously, the problem is that the passives themselves are inferior. Max stats, regen, and cost reductions are what matter most. Giving Argonians a passive that is tied to a consumable is imbalanced in itself. If I run out of potions, my passive becomes useless. Also, it takes time, efort, and gold to maintain. No other passive is so restricted.

Healing received at 9% is still not great. It's strange that they're being so dang stingy with the Argonian passives. They're so marginally usefully compared to other passives that the numbers should be like 15% or something. The Bosmer have 21% stamina regen!?! I just don't get what the developers are thinking. Are they that dense? Can they really not see the huge difference?

I really just have no hope for Argonians. I picked an Argonian NB at launch, ZOS broke them, and now I'm stuck with a VR crafter and forced to redo content. It's a struggle to even play anymore.

Oh didn't you know the Devs think that +50% swimming increase somehow equals +12% to max magicka?.......in fact 50% > 12% so they should probably nerf that swim speed down to 12% to be in line with that HE max magicka ability (because they have the same level of usefulness....right?)

The devs are either clueless or just don't care. Or maybe they don't know what sarcasm is and they take the swim speed jokes everyone makes seriously. I'm starting to wonder....