Nifty2g wrote: »

Let me ask you something @Attorneyatlawl do you honestly think this change is good for the game? PvE only.

well who defines good and bad?
it is good as it stops duct tape tanks and make tanking more active.
it is bad from the perspective of a tank who do want to play that way.

actually the question you have to answer: is the current tank meta what ZOS had in mind for them or not?

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Let me ask you something @Attorneyatlawl do you honestly think this change is good for the game? PvE only.

Read what I wrote a second ago... we cross-posted . Without a doubt.

I really have a hard time seeing how you find these changes to be healthy to ESO overall (in PVE) in both "hardcore" or "casual" terms. As anyone has seen from the PTS patch notes, regeneration sources have been severely crippled across many fronts. Werewolf+vamp no longer give regen unless abilities are sloted, passives have been cut in half (Refreshing shadows, etc), and so on. Topped with the fact that blocking takes your regen to 0, stamina management has reverted to the borderline impossible phase unless you devout humongous chunks of your character's power towards answering this issue. Templars are a MUST in groups more than ever before, with a lot of their time taken away from healing/dpsing just to keep the group's stamina up. Doing trials at a high tier level you already are aware of how strapped many of our templars are when doing this, and it's just going to get worse.

AA and HRC will be relatively unchanged in the tank's eyes, except for a few bosses such as; Foundation Atronach, The Warrior, The Mage. These bosses either have so much going on that releasing block can spell instant disaster, or lack proper attack indicators as to when they are even attacking their current aggro'ed target. Sanctum Ophidia will turn to a pure blood bath, with fights like Mantikora or Serpent... If the tank misses a single block they can be killed. This is compounded on all of the final boss fights of trials when the tank has to hold multiple targets, each with their own attack rate, not allowing for block to be dropped without heavy incoming damage.

In four man or open world content these changes aren't as bad for your top tier groups, because a solid DPS player can literally mitigate 80% of these issues by wiping the floor with multiple adds and pushing mechanics that could spell doom for other groups. However, with the more relaxed groups where people are using their own builds that are heavily lack luster in a PVE meta min-maxed scenario, the issues will become much worse. Right now there is a HUGE gap between your average and your top tier players. People spending multiple hours in DSA only to consume all 100 lives, compared to multiple groups clearing it in under 40 minutes with a few hiccup deaths. In those 40 minute runs, the concept of a tank hardly exists, as they're melting adds along with their group mates, practically nullifying this change. But what about fights like Mavus, where you have dozens of heavy hitting adds all clumped in one spot, all throwing out attacks that hit for 10k easily if not blocking? The disparity between players of top tier and average is going to only increase with this change, which isn't something ZoS has ever been about. I'm all for adding more of a challenge in this game, and the current state of affairs of a full out tank build is rather dry in play with taping down block, but this change is too drastic. If your top "1%" players are worried about this change, I think that should be saying something. ZOS has always said they want their changes to be slow and less drastic, so that players could adapt and the problems could be answered on a more calculated level instead of just nerfing everything, and potentially harming things that weren't toxic. So why ship this change?

These changes aren't just hitting tanks either, they're severely reworking how many DPS validate things like animation canceling, which is a pillar of a good player. As I said before, your templar healers are going to be more strapped by being forced to spend even more time and resources towards keeping their group at healthy levels of stamina, large sources of power are going to have to be rerouted into resource management instead of utility or damage, and overall the game will slow down. ESO has always been so engaging for me because its high octane combat, where you're forced to have to identify key problems as they come, and preform at your best or suffer the consequences. These changes, after personally playing with them on PTS for a large amount of time, is going to hinder this experience for everyone. Combat will feel much slower, and many scenarios that once required quick but ingenious strategies will devolve into RNG fests and artificial difficulty. This change was written off as so small in the patch notes, and I think Zenimax has severely overlooked the implications it has hitched with it. Their criteria of if a change is good or not has me extremely worried for the future of this game, as every time they say they have internally tested something and are happy with it, it's turned out to be the opposite. They say you'll still be able to do trials, and I'm sure you will be able to complete them... But not at the level of play that we've seen up until now. I'm excited for us to have to formulate new strategies and all, but I just see an irreversible amount of damage coming our way that's going to cripple how top tier PvE has played out, as well as the readiness and ability to clear content for the less "MLG" groups. A lot of content is going to become a lot harder, and people who were struggling before are in for a world of hurt.

Tankqull wrote: »

eventually that is exactly what ZOS aims for? not "mindlessly" burst down the bosses but actually play their mechanics?

Mindlessly? If this were actually the case, then months of theory crafting, testing, and practice would not had to have happen. And if it was so mindless, then why isn't everyone doing it? In top tier play, mechanics are still followed in trials- granted there are some interesting changes you can run, but every time you skip mechanics in say DSA or SO, there is a huge risk reward factor played in. SO much can go wrong when you try and beat the boss from channeling that massive AoE nuke, or when you allow 20 adds to clutter the screen and run amok on the group.

Mindless? Not a chance. I implore you to try and replicate what these top tier groups are capable of pulling off. Let's see if you can say that after having seen how difficult it is to do what we do.

Not to mention the end game of this PvE is literally all about speed and precision; so high risk high reward plays should be expected. Changing this would call for a total rework of the scoring system of trials, which Zenimax has been completely against since they removed death penalties.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Let me ask you something @Attorneyatlawl do you honestly think this change is good for the game? PvE only.

Read what I wrote a second ago... we cross-posted . Without a doubt.

I really have a hard time seeing how you find these changes to be healthy to ESO overall (in PVE) in both "hardcore" or "casual" terms. As anyone has seen from the PTS patch notes, regeneration sources have been severely crippled across many fronts. Werewolf+vamp no longer give regen unless abilities are sloted, passives have been cut in half (Refreshing shadows, etc), and so on. Topped with the fact that blocking takes your regen to 0, stamina management has reverted to the borderline impossible phase unless you devout humongous chunks of your character's power towards answering this issue. Templars are a MUST in groups more than ever before, with a lot of their time taken away from healing/dpsing just to keep the group's stamina up. Doing trials at a high tier level you already are aware of how strapped many of our templars are when doing this, and it's just going to get worse.

AA and HRC will be relatively unchanged in the tank's eyes, except for a few bosses such as; Foundation Atronach, The Warrior, The Mage. These bosses either have so much going on that releasing block can spell instant disaster, or lack proper attack indicators as to when they are even attacking their current aggro'ed target. Sanctum Ophidia will turn to a pure blood bath, with fights like Mantikora or Serpent... If the tank misses a single block they can be killed. This is compounded on all of the final boss fights of trials when the tank has to hold multiple targets, each with their own attack rate, not allowing for block to be dropped without heavy incoming damage.

In four man or open world content these changes aren't as bad for your top tier groups, because a solid DPS player can literally mitigate 80% of these issues by wiping the floor with multiple adds and pushing mechanics that could spell doom for other groups. However, with the more relaxed groups where people are using their own builds that are heavily lack luster in a PVE meta min-maxed scenario, the issues will become much worse. Right now there is a HUGE gap between your average and your top tier players. People spending multiple hours in DSA only to consume all 100 lives, compared to multiple groups clearing it in under 40 minutes with a few hiccup deaths. In those 40 minute runs, the concept of a tank hardly exists, as they're melting adds along with their group mates, practically nullifying this change. But what about fights like Mavus, where you have dozens of heavy hitting adds all clumped in one spot, all throwing out attacks that hit for 10k easily if not blocking? The disparity between players of top tier and average is going to only increase with this change, which isn't something ZoS has ever been about. I'm all for adding more of a challenge in this game, and the current state of affairs of a full out tank build is rather dry in play with taping down block, but this change is too drastic. If your top "1%" players are worried about this change, I think that should be saying something. ZOS has always said they want their changes to be slow and less drastic, so that players could adapt and the problems could be answered on a more calculated level instead of just nerfing everything, and potentially harming things that weren't toxic. So why ship this change?

These changes aren't just hitting tanks either, they're severely reworking how many DPS validate things like animation canceling, which is a pillar of a good player. As I said before, your templar healers are going to be more strapped by being forced to spend even more time and resources towards keeping their group at healthy levels of stamina, large sources of power are going to have to be rerouted into resource management instead of utility or damage, and overall the game will slow down. ESO has always been so engaging for me because its high octane combat, where you're forced to have to identify key problems as they come, and preform at your best or suffer the consequences. These changes, after personally playing with them on PTS for a large amount of time, is going to hinder this experience for everyone. Combat will feel much slower, and many scenarios that once required quick but ingenious strategies will devolve into RNG fests and artificial difficulty. This change was written off as so small in the patch notes, and I think Zenimax has severely overlooked the implications it has hitched with it. Their criteria of if a change is good or not has me extremely worried for the future of this game, as every time they say they have internally tested something and are happy with it, it's turned out to be the opposite. They say you'll still be able to do trials, and I'm sure you will be able to complete them... But not at the level of play that we've seen up until now. I'm excited for us to have to formulate new strategies and all, but I just see an irreversible amount of damage coming our way that's going to cripple how top tier PvE has played out, as well as the readiness and ability to clear content for the less "MLG" groups. A lot of content is going to become a lot harder, and people who were struggling before are in for a world of hurt.

This reference to "the tank", you don't have to limit your group to having one tank. I've saved many an encounter have my sword and shield ready on my off bar. I wouldn't define good players as those who know how to animation cancel, it is the ones that can a actually watch the animation and see when to block that will be the good players. This is not your father's MMO, you are going to have to look beyond just depending on your gear to save you. You'll actually have to be engaged in the combat mechanics. This is what you're going to get with an elder scrolls game on a console. Adapt or die.

I personally like the change. It seems that ESO mechanics are attempting to further separate itself from the same old same old from previous MMOs. Look beyond what you have been conditioned to believe what "MMO Tanking" is and see what ESO is trying to do. It is marvelous they've actually tried to get the tank to be more active in the fight mechanics than just stand there and take a beating. I doubt the console crowd is going to have much trouble with this. I'm on PC and invite the challenge. Two weeks after patch I guarantee this isn't going to be a problem, some how some way you'll figure out how to go back to standing in one place, shield up while eating Cheetos with the other hand.

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

These changes aren't just hitting tanks either, they're severely reworking how many DPS validate things like animation canceling, which is a pillar of a good player.

This reference to "the tank", you don't have to limit your group to having one tank. I've saved many an encounter have my sword and shield ready on my off bar. I wouldn't define good players as those who know how to animation cancel, it is the ones that can a actually watch the animation and see when to block that will be the good players. This is not your father's MMO, you are going to have to look beyond just depending on your gear to save you. You'll actually have to be engaged in the combat mechanics. This is what you're going to get with an elder scrolls game on a console. Adapt or die.

I personally like the change. It seems that ESO mechanics are attempting to further separate itself from the same old same old from previous MMOs. Look beyond what you have been conditioned to believe what "MMO Tanking" is and see what ESO is trying to do. It is marvelous they've actually tried to get the tank to be more active in the fight mechanics than just stand there and take a beating. I doubt the console crowd is going to have much trouble with this. I'm on PC and invite the challenge. Two weeks after patch I guarantee this isn't going to be a problem, some how some way you'll figure out how to go back to standing in one place, shield up while eating Cheetos with the other hand.

Notice how I said a pillar, not the end all be all. I know that there's a lot more that goes into someone being good at this game. Don't put words in my mouth.

Depending on gear isn't any part of my argument, because skill will always outweigh arbitrary stats. Stats only enhance what a good player can do.

I'm quite aware of the boundaries ESO has attempted to break with their tanking, and they've done a rather decent job at shifting away from the whole "Tank hold aggro on all the things, everyone lives happily ever after", once again this is not what i'm arguing. I am arguing how efficient tanking will become across all terms, whether you're a devoted tank or a DPS who just got aggro on a few mobs. It's going to hurt everyone, there are implications this change has that so many people like yourself are overlooking.

I am quite engaged in combat mechanics, I've done DSA more times than you've probably logged on and have seen so many ways things can go right or wrong when you react to mechanics, yet there are always new things that seem to happen. Again this change will just make it harder and more artificially punishing to react to an "Oh no" situation.

I run most of my groups without an actual dedicated tank, I'd say that's pretty far off from the conditioned view of "MMO Tanking" you mentioned. These changes will actually reinforce the generic view of tanking, as you won't be able to get away with things you are now.

Please spend a little more time and thought into reading and dissecting my points instead of throwing arguments that hold no weight to the topic. Everything you've said is either based on you misunderstanding, or not being aware of my actual view points and knowledge I have of the topic; which I am partially at fault for not explaining my life journey in ESO in my previous posts.

Lol hey gil took me long enough but i'm on here now.

Avenias wrote: »

swaggasm wrote: »

So make tanking so hard and difficult that a large number of players in top guilds are worried. Check.

Make the divide bigger between the players that don't put tremendous amount of time into the game and players that do. Check.

Completely turn off any players that may want to play as a tank. Check.

Turn off players that currently play as a tank. Check.

Make old trial content that a lot of casual and new players that cannot beat it now even harder. Check.

Cater to one half of your userbase again. Check.

Mix of humor and tragedy, more tragic though. Well players need to get used to ZOS focusing more on pvp players then pve.

Or we can keep a split between pve and pvp so we don't completely break one half of the game

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

This reference to "the tank", you don't have to limit your group to having one tank. I've saved many an encounter have my sword and shield ready on my off bar. I wouldn't define good players as those who know how to animation cancel, it is the ones that can a actually watch the animation and see when to block that will be the good players. This is not your father's MMO, you are going to have to look beyond just depending on your gear to save you. You'll actually have to be engaged in the combat mechanics. This is what you're going to get with an elder scrolls game on a console. Adapt or die.

I would like to agree with you, but due to the limited, information-less UI, the absolutely abysmal targeting system, the problem with mobs trying to stand somewhere else on top of other mobs, or chains and ranged taunt having such a dumb priority (yes, really wanted so much to chain that level 1 spider behind the caster...), and not to mention how much of a cluttered mess the game looks like when you're facing off with multiple mobs, all of this strategizing and picking your targets in the middle of other becomes a flustering mini game all onto its own. This problem is usually remedied in other MMOs with an AOE-taunt ability and AOE treat gen. We lack that here.

I doubt many people are complaining about single target encounters by the way. That part has always been easy, you can see those heavy attacks from miles away. Nerien’eth on his own in vCoH is still pretty easy. Soon as those wraiths come out, keeping taunts on all of them and on the boss himself becomes painful and feels very damning to my tank. Dropping my shield is not useful as four adds plus boss, plus his AOE is chewing through my health and defenses pretty quickly. I feel pretty useless as a tank when I don't have my shield up; mind as well switch out all that heavy reinforced armor to medium or light?

I personally like the change. It seems that ESO mechanics are attempting to further separate itself from the same old same old from previous MMOs. Look beyond what you have been conditioned to believe what "MMO Tanking" is and see what ESO is trying to do. It is marvelous they've actually tried to get the tank to be more active in the fight mechanics than just stand there and take a beating. I doubt the console crowd is going to have much trouble with this. I'm on PC and invite the challenge. Two weeks after patch I guarantee this isn't going to be a problem, some how some way you'll figure out how to go back to standing in one place, shield up while eating Cheetos with the other hand.

I certainly feel the opposite as you mentioned above. I think the new meta for tanks will change and if this change goes live most of us will be running cookie cutter builds and fostering ideal group compositions, which further hurts people trying to run unusual builds.

I also feel that tanking on the PTS has become far less interactive. There's really not much for me to do as a stam-based tank except watch my stam bar, and be careful not to use it on other skills or abilities unless absolutely necessary. I'm running around less, I'm using skills less, I'm focused on trying to keep my stam up using Earthen Heart abilities (which returns such a small, depressing amount by the way). Roll dodging is pretty much a no since it eats up too much of my resources. In short, tanking has been reduced to standing still, not using stamina based abilities, and rotating other skills which keeps my stamina up, while trying to pick those two or three other mobs without taunting someone else needlessly (hard to do). I don't find this challenging in the least. I find it boring, frustrating, and downright demoralizing when I can't even help my team mates succeed. There was something pretty upsetting about wiping again for the first time in ages on Nerien’eth and it wasn't because someone zigged when they should have zagged, it was because I lost control of wraiths when I had no stamina. We eventually did it, but in the end I felt like I was a hindrance more than a help.

Tankqull wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Let me ask you something @Attorneyatlawl do you honestly think this change is good for the game? PvE only.

well who defines good and bad?

Evaluation.

Several things are untested because devs rely on feedback from different kind of players, thats why there are test teams. Internal people, private people and partial Psiij order test group. Most of them are into PvP and into general ESO gaming. Majority is not specialized on a specific role like "real" tanking in terms of a test task. As well there is lot todo for test teams and we are not always being asked for specific testing like blocking.

However, some decisions are just being made without having test coverage and experience in all areas. From Developer perspective there is no good or bad, but a reasonable compromise after evaluation.

This topic could be on their agenda for meetings anyway, if they have the impression that players have a point, they do re evaluate things. Imo just a question of time until we see a /lurk to confirm this.

How they decide is a different story.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@Personofsecrets, the video link you keep throwing in here shows the same mechanics I had already stated before the first time you even posted it in this thread in reply as a "rebuttal", but again, I am unsure of your point: you posted it presumably to "demonstrate" how I was wrong about how it worked, but anyone clicking the video to watch it will see it states the same mechanics I had already covered ad nauseum. Extremely basic ones, at that, like I said... ones any person looking to tank seriously in an MMORPG would go to check on their own first before ever thinking of youtube because they're easy to see in-game and they would want to go see what they should be looking for advice about.

I'll go ahead and post what has been going on so that everyone can follow along on this interesting conversation thread.

"Attorney > Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Me > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yacj4kIQRhM

^^^^^ Ultimate generation between just blocking or attacking and blocking is the same mind a 2 second over 60 second difference

Attorney > See, you have proven my point.

Me > The point is that you are wrong about tanks ultimate generation.

Attorney > I don't understand why there are these spread sheets and videos

Me > Tanking has been misrepresented and I posted those things so that people know what tanks really deal with

Attorney > The video is so basic that it might as well be for beginners. You keep linking the video and I don't understand why.

Me > You wrote "Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself." I went out as you suggested, tested, and showed that an idea you brought up continuously was flawed. Hey, everyone makes mistakes, and that is okay, but let's talk about how tanking really is when discussing a nerf that drastically effects it."

You know all the top tier L33t players can take a back seat to the majority of customers and let us have some reason to even want to level a tank.

Go ahead make a alt as a pure tank with NO Twinking and see how that crap goes as a solo player.

Oh and btw were are all the taunts................yeah all 3 of them : (

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@Personofsecrets, the video link you keep throwing in here shows the same mechanics I had already stated before the first time you even posted it in this thread in reply as a "rebuttal", but again, I am unsure of your point: you posted it presumably to "demonstrate" how I was wrong about how it worked, but anyone clicking the video to watch it will see it states the same mechanics I had already covered ad nauseum. Extremely basic ones, at that, like I said... ones any person looking to tank seriously in an MMORPG would go to check on their own first before ever thinking of youtube because they're easy to see in-game and they would want to go see what they should be looking for advice about.

I'll go ahead and post what has been going on so that everyone can follow along on this interesting conversation thread.

You wrote "Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself." I went out as you suggested, tested, and showed that an idea you brought up continuously was flawed. Hey, everyone makes mistakes, and that is okay, but let's talk about how tanking really is when discussing a nerf that drastically effects it."

How about simply linking the actual quotes, instead of paraphrasing and mixing things in/out of context? I indeed stated that blocking alone won't always achieve maximum ult generation, and that is indeed true: if there is any gap in you being hit while blocking such as a mob or boss moving away for 10-15 seconds like the hardmode warrior , your ult generation will fall. You still do not counter that, instead focusing in on whether you feel for one specific video encounter whether it was much of a difference... when I all I said is that there is one.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2072963/#Comment_2072963

That is the entire thread. There's nothing to really "follow along" with when the quotes are laid out in order before you . Instead of continuously sidetracking to that tangent (a situational one, at that), you have yet to even state much as to how or why you think it will "drastically effects it"(sic). It's unconstructive and largely pointless to split hairs with the semantics of how "true" you think a statement was, based on how severely it does so.

Bromburak wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Let me ask you something @Attorneyatlawl do you honestly think this change is good for the game? PvE only.

well who defines good and bad?

Evaluation.

Several things are untested because devs rely on feedback from different kind of players, thats why there are test teams. Internal people, private people and partial Psiij order test group. Most of them are into PvP and into general ESO gaming. Majority is not specialized on a specific role like "real" tanking in terms of a test task. As well there is lot todo for test teams and we are not always being asked for specific testing like blocking.

However, some decisions are just being made without having test coverage and experience in all areas. From Developer perspective there is no good or bad, but a reasonable compromise after evaluation.

This topic could be on their agenda for meetings anyway, if they have the impression that players have a point, they do re evaluate things. Imo just a question of time until we see a /lurk to confirm this.

How they decide is a different story.

Yep. I've been saying that this entire time... this conversation has continually sunken into unconstructive personal attacks and semantical tangents that don't have much impact on the overall issue (or lack thereof) by snipping one or two sentences out of posts containing dozens, and well more than 600+ posts complaining of how it could never possibly work or would destroy the game were made with no facts to have backed that prediction up at that time. Context is key. The test server now, has not even been up for 24 hours from when the first players finished patching.

Evaluating a change and declaring it isn't doable before having played, let alone having played for even just one day, with changes this far reaching between itemization and gameplay in a patch sizing in at 50+ pages of notes, is jumping to conclusions much, much too early. You know that floor mat from Office Space? That one fits, right here.

Tankqull wrote: »

eventually that is exactly what ZOS aims for? not "mindlessly" burst down the bosses but actually play their mechanics?

You have no idea of specific mechanics, so do Designers and developers because they don't play the related content at their limits like the best players do.

Just because 90% is casual ideal typical content that only requires basics you cannot ignore the other 5-10%.
Thats why developers must evaluate more carefully and situational to find a reasonable compromise.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Just been playing on the PTS for a little bit. Pretty much have to roll over and die because blocking isn't allowed.

Is this a joke? People are already completing the new vet dungeons. Don't know of any raid groups, but since those don't scale they don't matter anymore. You just have to adapt...

MikeB wrote: »

All they need to do to resolve PvP nerfs not affecting PvE is to make the nerfs to PvP only active in PvP. Several other MMO's seperate their PvP and PvE because they realized you cant make changes to one without affecting the other. Just make it so when you are marked PvP you get no stam from blocking along with all the other changes made because of PvP.

I've said this many times myself over the last year+

PVP and PVE co-existing hand in hand is cold fusion.