troner2 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

you will have to block whens needed and not just sit there doing perma block

Then you pretty much die in Trials / VDSA, anything that power attacks you is a one shot. Have you not done any end game pve?

then like he said, you block the heavys and dont just perma block, there making it less easy

challenge = FUN!

The point is on several stages of vDSA for example, there are lots of extended periods where there are multiple enemies power attacking or AOEing you. If you block only power attacks, you are holding down block still. The fact that you are also blocking light attacks is incidental.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Obviously, there are huge numbers of skills in the game that can amply and more than compensate for the effectively minor change to your stamina regeneration in the course of a minute. Is it that creative an idea to have one of the stamina-based DPS miss one attack occasionally to provide the synergy for the tank? Absolutely not. You are completely right about that: the game already allows for a huge variety of ways to mitigate, avoid, or essentially buffer/negate damage. Like I said earlier in the thread a few times, but was glossed over in favor of character attacks and complaints of how it will be too hard with no facts, just subjectivity, backing those opinions up... the current character stat and power allocations simply allow for it to be too easy, to where many (most? I assumed it wasn't from in-game chats, but I've since seen virtually everyone in this thread claim to always be holding down block rather than time anything) simply ignore the game's design and mechanics, which proves in and of itself that it is too easy: hence, the reason for this change to make it slightly more difficult. History repeats itself, as it has for decades in MMO chats by now.

You know if you read your argument without details it sounds a lot like you are arguing not to change blocking at all.

After all, this change was not designed to make PvE harder and more challenging, it was designed to make PvP easier by removing a source of mitigation. This change will make PvP easier and PvE harder.

Is it the end of the world? No, you are right people will adjust. The issue it why they are making a huge mechanical change to PvE, which was not unbalanced with the current mechanics, to benefit PvP.

Tanks blocking is not what made the current PvE content so easy for top tier players, its the massive DPS people can pull down. This won't change that fact, it will just make tanking harder (not more fun, just harder) for most people for the benefit of PvP.

Kammakazi wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2074057/#Comment_2074057

They took it off.

can you elaborate please?

I see in post 8

"You will no longer regenerate stamina while blocking."

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Bromburak wrote:

@Personofsecrets It makes no sense to show him his contrariness.
And his reaction to the video confirmed it just again ... Its like talking to politicians.

No worries, I believe others already have recognized this days ago.
Don't waste your time , its not worth it.

Considering how easy it is to calculate all of this off the top of your head (and for new players, either look up the base amount or go in-game and block a few hits from a single mob while watching how much stamina they lose with nothing equipped... one of the first things anyone concerned with tanking should have been doing once they hit the level cap), I'm still honestly baffled as to the point of linking that video repeatedly as if it were some breaking news or relevant to a balance change discussion when talking about the most difficult areas in an entire game.

Let me put it this way: If you were a chef, would you be lecturing other cooks as to what temperature meat is unhealthy for people to digest at, when trying to talk about how to make a steak medium-rare for an upscale restaurant? That's the exact thing posting what really amounts to tutorial-level information is presented in that video in response to people already discussing well above and beyond those rudimentary basics. The OP came from someone who inarguably is an experienced player, @Nifty2g. And so when I came to post, I thought it would be a given that the basics were understood.

Let me put it this way, amount of words will not change facts or cover reality.
The video was not a tutorial it was a demonstration why your words are wrong.

Unfortunately the thread is not a conversation between players because you act like a text bot.

Halke wrote: »

So I ran a couple things today.

My first tank was a DK, lost taunt a few times, cursed, changed skills, was just fine. (First actual boss in vSpindle just to test changes) He was able to tank him for as long as it took for me to kill the boss. This however is not to question my horrid DPS, just the ability to tank one mob.

Tried vWhite Gold. Also: ZOMG SO MUCH FUN! Now back to the point. Another DK, same song, different verse. One mob, wonderful, two sketch, three taunts were coming slow, full trash pack and I was having to go full heals because we were all taking heavy damage.

So you mean the tank has to hold aggro of primarily the hardest hitters, healer has to dedicate themselves to healing and the DPS have to bring down things fast because tanks have a limited life expectancy now... The problem is where?

DDuke wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Halke wrote: »

So I ran a couple things today.

My first tank was a DK, lost taunt a few times, cursed, changed skills, was just fine. (First actual boss in vSpindle just to test changes) He was able to tank him for as long as it took for me to kill the boss. This however is not to question my horrid DPS, just the ability to tank one mob.

Tried vWhite Gold. Also: ZOMG SO MUCH FUN! Now back to the point. Another DK, same song, different verse. One mob, wonderful, two sketch, three taunts were coming slow, full trash pack and I was having to go full heals because we were all taking heavy damage.

So you mean the tank has to hold aggro of primarily the hardest hitters, healer has to dedicate themselves to healing and the DPS have to bring down things fast because tanks have a limited life expectancy now... The problem is where?

Very much this.


Also regarding the AA Axes & wraiths in CoH or Daedroths in BC... Has anyone tried doing that with DPS CC'ing these mobs? You know, using those abilities no one used before (Agony, Petrify etc).

And in that post, you made yourself look clueless

Petros wrote: »

...those axes will be a pain

They fixed mutagen so maybe people will actually start using that again. We need something that non Templars can use to heal.

@Nifty2g, the math I provided was to show it is much, much more than possible, without being a robot that is perfect on everything. It's up to people to adjust to the newer meta rather than sit complaining before even trying it.

The fact of the matter is whether or not a huge number of "casual players" as Nifty calls them, do or don't currently manage to handle it, is the game will benefit from having a difficulty increase on this front, and it's not even a very big one in terms of the mechanics unless you were simply overpowering it like many here seem to have been instead of using them (i.e. holding block 24/7, never moving (something I've observed is very common...) or doing much else). Deeper gameplay keeps players around longer... today's "casuals" as you berate them as, can and will improve if they actually try, instead of being told "It's impossible... hurry, petition so it isn't changed!".

You don't need "pinpoint accuracy": there is much, much more room for error which is what I posted that math to show, than "pinpoint accuracy". That is why I have continued to mention that the character power allocations allowed for a huge amount more on live than was needed. You don't have to be a "robot" to time basic gameplay. If timing's a gameplay concern, there are games with slower combat systems and quasi-turnbased ones like WOW around still, although I've heard from a lot of people who did play it in the past that it's become a lot easier in all regards and thus not very fun nowadays. The same thing I don't want to happen here because instead of even trying to adjust, you say "It's too difficult!" and ask for it to be rolled back before being on the PTS for even a full day.

DDuke wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Halke wrote: »

So I ran a couple things today.

My first tank was a DK, lost taunt a few times, cursed, changed skills, was just fine. (First actual boss in vSpindle just to test changes) He was able to tank him for as long as it took for me to kill the boss. This however is not to question my horrid DPS, just the ability to tank one mob.

Tried vWhite Gold. Also: ZOMG SO MUCH FUN! Now back to the point. Another DK, same song, different verse. One mob, wonderful, two sketch, three taunts were coming slow, full trash pack and I was having to go full heals because we were all taking heavy damage.

So you mean the tank has to hold aggro of primarily the hardest hitters, healer has to dedicate themselves to healing and the DPS have to bring down things fast because tanks have a limited life expectancy now... The problem is where?

Very much this.

Also regarding the AA Axes & wraiths in CoH or Daedroths in BC... Has anyone tried doing that with DPS CC'ing these mobs? You know, using those abilities no one used before (Agony, Petrify etc).

Those fancy abilities like Rune Prison's morph that doesn't break on DoT's, and is now instant cast? Like how people did it way back in the day where you had to tank five of the daedroth at once instead of just downing Rillis as the third one came out ? Or.... gasp.... move, rather than stand still? Most of the mobs have melee swings in Trials and elsewhere... use that instead of standing still as a sitting duck for them to swing on their absolute optimal timers. Jostle in a small circle even, a very basic strategy in every game I've played to help stagger out enemy swing timers from melee and slow the incoming damage.

__________________

@Personofsecrets, the video link you keep throwing in here shows the same mechanics I had already stated before the first time you even posted it in this thread in reply as a "rebuttal", but again, I am unsure of your point: you posted it presumably to "demonstrate" how I was wrong about how it worked, but anyone clicking the video to watch it will see it states the same mechanics I had already covered ad nauseum. Extremely basic ones, at that, like I said... ones any person looking to tank seriously in an MMORPG would go to check on their own first before ever thinking of youtube because they're easy to see in-game and they would want to go see what they should be looking for advice about.

Nifty2g wrote: »

0% regen is a bit much, 50% would be alright, but honestly with 0% you're not going to be able to do much, the only people able will be the top 1% and even then theres not much hardcore raiding tanks around anymore. This is a useless "fix" for a problem that has never been a problem in PvE. DDuke do yourself a favor and keep your PvP nonsense out of here, and please Attorney realise that doing math and posting it does no good, no one has pinpoint accuracy to match the seconds you are posting, it's never going to happen, no one here is a robot capable enough of perfectly timing seconds apart and calculating it. So no, in the end it is not possible no matter what you say.

Stop bringing PvP into this thread for the love of god, if you're not experienced with PvE then just don't say anything.

I'll be compeltely honest, does this change matter to me? No, I know tanks easily able to figure something out, but in the end this is going to ruin casual play styles for casual guilds and lets face it PvE has died down so much that what is left is casual guilds running trials certain days of the week for weeklies etc.

In the end this thread is for the casual players, it really wont matter to me at all.

@Nifty2g.... @Dduke has the right of it: if you or anyone else has problems, adjust your strategy! If you weren't already using more of the tools, dozens of which are in-game already on live that beyond covered the power needed with this change, then do so now. If everyone here spent half of the time they have in this thread complaining instead practicing or testing how to deal with it... this thread would have died long ago.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Halke wrote: »

So I ran a couple things today.

My first tank was a DK, lost taunt a few times, cursed, changed skills, was just fine. (First actual boss in vSpindle just to test changes) He was able to tank him for as long as it took for me to kill the boss. This however is not to question my horrid DPS, just the ability to tank one mob.

Tried vWhite Gold. Also: ZOMG SO MUCH FUN! Now back to the point. Another DK, same song, different verse. One mob, wonderful, two sketch, three taunts were coming slow, full trash pack and I was having to go full heals because we were all taking heavy damage.

So you mean the tank has to hold aggro of primarily the hardest hitters, healer has to dedicate themselves to healing and the DPS have to bring down things fast because tanks have a limited life expectancy now... The problem is where?

Very much this.


Also regarding the AA Axes & wraiths in CoH or Daedroths in BC... Has anyone tried doing that with DPS CC'ing these mobs? You know, using those abilities no one used before (Agony, Petrify etc).

Those fancy abilities like Rune Prison's morph that doesn't break on DoT's, and is now instant cast? Like how people did it way back in the day where you had to tank five of the daedroth at once instead of just downing Rillis as the third one came out ? Or.... gasp.... move, rather than stand still?

@Nifty2g, the math I provided was to show it is much, much more than possible, without being a robot that is perfect on everything. It's up to people to adjust to the newer meta rather than sit complaining before even trying it.

@Personofsecrets, the video link you keep throwing in here shows the same mechanics I had already stated before the first time you even posted it in this thread in reply to me. Again, I am unsure of your point: you posted it presumably to "demonstrate" how I was wrong about how it worked, but then state it shows the same things I had said previously.

Nifty2g wrote: »

0% regen is a bit much, 50% would be alright, but honestly with 0% you're not going to be able to do much, the only people able will be the top 1% and even then theres not much hardcore raiding tanks around anymore. This is a useless "fix" for a problem that has never been a problem in PvE. DDuke do yourself a favor and keep your PvP nonsense out of here, and please Attorney realise that doing math and posting it does no good, no one has pinpoint accuracy to match the seconds you are posting, it's never going to happen, no one here is a robot capable enough of perfectly timing seconds apart and calculating it. So no, in the end it is not possible no matter what you say.

Stop bringing PvP into this thread for the love of god, if you're not experienced with PvE then just don't say anything.

I'll be compeltely honest, does this change matter to me? No, I know tanks easily able to figure something out, but in the end this is going to ruin casual play styles for casual guilds and lets face it PvE has died down so much that what is left is casual guilds running trials certain days of the week for weeklies etc.

In the end this thread is for the casual players, it really wont matter to me at all.

@Nifty2g, You don't need "pinpoint accuracy": there is much, much more room for error which is what I posted that math to show, than "pinpoint accuracy". That is why I have continued to mention that the character power allocations allowed for a huge amount more on live than was needed. You don't have to be a "robot" to time basic gameplay. If timing's a gameplay concern, there are games with slower combat systems and quasi-turnbased ones like WOW around still, although I've heard from a lot of people who did play it in the past that it's become a lot easier in all regards and thus not very fun nowadays. The same thing I don't want to happen here because instead of even trying to adjust, you say "It's too difficult!" and ask for it to be rolled back before being on the PTS for even a full day.

@Dduke has the right of it: adjust your strategy! If you weren't already using more of the tools, dozens of which are in-game already on live that beyond covered the power needed with this change, then do so now. If everyone here spent half of the time they have in this thread complaining instead practicing or testing how to deal with it... this thread would have died long ago.

"If everyone here spent half of the time they have in this thread complaining instead practicing or testing how to deal with it... this thread would have died long ago."

Wow you are so full of yourself, didnt it come to your mind, that this thread is still alive, only because this nerf is unjustified and too hard?

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Halke wrote: »

So I ran a couple things today.

My first tank was a DK, lost taunt a few times, cursed, changed skills, was just fine. (First actual boss in vSpindle just to test changes) He was able to tank him for as long as it took for me to kill the boss. This however is not to question my horrid DPS, just the ability to tank one mob.

Tried vWhite Gold. Also: ZOMG SO MUCH FUN! Now back to the point. Another DK, same song, different verse. One mob, wonderful, two sketch, three taunts were coming slow, full trash pack and I was having to go full heals because we were all taking heavy damage.

So you mean the tank has to hold aggro of primarily the hardest hitters, healer has to dedicate themselves to healing and the DPS have to bring down things fast because tanks have a limited life expectancy now... The problem is where?

Very much this.


Also regarding the AA Axes & wraiths in CoH or Daedroths in BC... Has anyone tried doing that with DPS CC'ing these mobs? You know, using those abilities no one used before (Agony, Petrify etc).

Those fancy abilities like Rune Prison's morph that doesn't break on DoT's, and is now instant cast? Like how people did it way back in the day where you had to tank five of the daedroth at once instead of just downing Rillis as the third one came out ? Or.... gasp.... move, rather than stand still?

@Nifty2g, the math I provided was to show it is much, much more than possible, without being a robot that is perfect on everything. It's up to people to adjust to the newer meta rather than sit complaining before even trying it.

@Personofsecrets, the video link you keep throwing in here shows the same mechanics I had already stated before the first time you even posted it in this thread in reply to me. Again, I am unsure of your point: you posted it presumably to "demonstrate" how I was wrong about how it worked, but then state it shows the same things I had said previously.

Nifty2g wrote: »

0% regen is a bit much, 50% would be alright, but honestly with 0% you're not going to be able to do much, the only people able will be the top 1% and even then theres not much hardcore raiding tanks around anymore. This is a useless "fix" for a problem that has never been a problem in PvE. DDuke do yourself a favor and keep your PvP nonsense out of here, and please Attorney realise that doing math and posting it does no good, no one has pinpoint accuracy to match the seconds you are posting, it's never going to happen, no one here is a robot capable enough of perfectly timing seconds apart and calculating it. So no, in the end it is not possible no matter what you say.

Stop bringing PvP into this thread for the love of god, if you're not experienced with PvE then just don't say anything.

I'll be compeltely honest, does this change matter to me? No, I know tanks easily able to figure something out, but in the end this is going to ruin casual play styles for casual guilds and lets face it PvE has died down so much that what is left is casual guilds running trials certain days of the week for weeklies etc.

In the end this thread is for the casual players, it really wont matter to me at all.

@Nifty2g, You don't need "pinpoint accuracy": there is much, much more room for error which is what I posted that math to show, than "pinpoint accuracy". That is why I have continued to mention that the character power allocations allowed for a huge amount more on live than was needed. You don't have to be a "robot" to time basic gameplay. If timing's a gameplay concern, there are games with slower combat systems and quasi-turnbased ones like WOW around still, although I've heard from a lot of people who did play it in the past that it's become a lot easier in all regards and thus not very fun nowadays. The same thing I don't want to happen here because instead of even trying to adjust, you say "It's too difficult!" and ask for it to be rolled back before being on the PTS for even a full day.

@Dduke has the right of it: adjust your strategy! If you weren't already using more of the tools, dozens of which are in-game already on live that beyond covered the power needed with this change, then do so now. If everyone here spent half of the time they have in this thread complaining instead practicing or testing how to deal with it... this thread would have died long ago.

"If everyone here spent half of the time they have in this thread complaining instead practicing or testing how to deal with it... this thread would have died long ago."

Wow you are so full of yourself, didnt it come to your mind, that this thread is still alive, only because this nerf is unjustified and too hard?

Unjustified and too hard? Perhaps the justification of it stems not from the PvP imbalances it was causing, but perhaps the 3 dps 1 'Tank' with as much dps slotted as possible meta it was causing. Or perhaps it was to encourage more use of CC for large trashy fights than just taunts. Perhaps it was to encourage people to bother managing the opportunity cost of magicka vs stamina. Perhaps it was to compensate for other power spikes we'll be receiving through this patch and the one we've gradually earned through CP. Perhaps it was a mix of all the above.

Unjustified? Hardly.

Enodoc wrote: »

Has anybody tested the new Serpent Mundus Stone buff with this?
Serpent: This Mundus Stone now increases your stamina regeneration instead of health regeneration.
While anything x0 is still 0, this may assist in faster regeneration when you're not blocking.

May I introduce you to your Lord and savior the Lord stone? (Or the tower) Seriously - an extra 2000 stam or health is far better than sometimes getting a little more regen.

Let me ask you something @Attorneyatlawl do you honestly think this change is good for the game? PvE only.