Champion Points and the Future of Non-Vet PvP

Feiru · July 2015

The issue with Champion Points in nonvet PvP is a real problem. It really has no place there. Players entering nonvet campaigns are often new to the game or pvp. Some prefer it due to less graphical issues or laency. This is more about the game play experience and player preferences. Nonvet PvP exists for a reason so let's stop comparing the issue with veteran PvP.

Having that said, the number one way to finding a fix is always feedback. If you have also run tests or had an experience please include it here.

Screenshots are helpful ways to seeing an issue recuring. Get your guild and your friends to help out by posting their findings.

In speaking about ideas for possible fixes, not sure if having a base CP would be feasible or not as it is a saved currency in and outside of the instance. I'm interested to hear more ideas for solutions thrown around.

Apologies if this has typos as I'm posting from my mobile device. The mobile version of this site is not scaled down to fit properly. Regards,

Loremaster~

QuebraRegra · July 2015

Azurulia wrote: »

I very much agree with the OP.

Being a new player, I had my first real taste of pvp last night. I went into the non-vet and have to say it was pretty fun, however I immediately saw the frustration a number of players were having when 2 nightblades that were paired together kept conscientiously harassing a group of 6 or 7 of us. They were very difficult for all of us to kill. It was then that I had even learnt exactly how CP worked and I thought "This is non vet, so... why do they get to use their CP from vet characters?"

It didn't really make much sense to me. The non-vet label attracts newer players (Like myself) to hopefully hop in and not get smashed. However players having CP in there kind of defeats the purpose of having a non-vet league.

Seems like a pretty simple solution to me. CP shouldn't be allowed in non-vet.

Champ points on a non-vet character...It's a "tactic" that I intend to exploit myself sometime in the near future.

That said, I suspect that there are more complaints attributed to CP advantage in the non-vet campaign then is actually occurring... by a long shot. I'm willing to wager that at some point in the future anyone who dies, will cry something along the lines of "CP OP", rather than recognize that the other guy (girl, sloth, invertebrate, etc.) simply outplayed them.

I can easily see how NB skirmishers could harass a party (I've done it myself). A good "ganker" does not mean CP at play.... the NB class skills/builds lend themselves to this kind of skirmish combat.

Please explain EXACTLY why you think they were exploiting CP? What did anyone do to shut down their mobility and cloak? An NB without mobility, and cloak is a dead fish.

My guess, nothing, and my guess no CP either. This will likely not be a popular point of view, but there is truth in it. An online portal wherein we could see other characters builds on the server would shed some light.

Dru1076 · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

It was really nice to see you acknowledge this thread, @ZOS_BrianWheeler ... I had hoped, not expected...but hoped... To see some sort of move made on this before IC. Looking over the patch notes for the PTS I have now surrendered that hope. All the effort being put into PVP and you guys have totally omitted the concerns about CP's.

Will we ever see these CP free campaigns? It would be nice to know either way. To make it really easy for you, if you're not intending to bring them in at all, don't answer. I will take silence as a "no", and we can all move on.

Woman · July 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @Dru1076 I've been told they intend to fix the issue soon and are taking this really seriously. It's a simple problem with a simple fix, and I don't think the community is devided at all about it. Let's get this done soon!

Rhakon · July 2015

CS needs to be banned of PVP and Leaderboards in PvE

It destroys all competition, chases people away from the game and prevent people buying this game.

I could not recommend this game to a friend because of this system, we could never play together on the same lvl.

Dru1076 · July 2015

Woman wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @Dru1076 I've been told they intend to fix the issue soon and are taking this really seriously. It's a simple problem with a simple fix, and I don't think the community is devided at all about it. Let's get this done soon!

Thanks for the info. I hope they are taking this seriously, because I'm starting to think otherwise. For something that could be fixed so easily, it would seem no one is any hurry to move on it, which is most disappointing.

I hope what you heard is true, but if it is why has there been no word about it from ZOS? The official silence is pretty strong evidence in itself.

Acrolas · July 2015

I still think this is ZeniMax backpeddling in an attempt to please everyone.

You can't.

Maybe they made a mistake in putting 3600 points out there at once. Maybe they should have throttled it to 100 per month for 36 months. But it was their idea to release CP as content, instead of actual content. Their PC beta server starved for some sort of progression.

I think the larger issue is that ZeniMax doesn't have a long-term plan. Or if they did, it's been torn to shreds by now. So they will keep making mistakes and trying to clean them up until they sit down and figure out exactly how they want this game to work. Because honestly, right now they're probably wondering how they created a monster this complex and divisive in the first place.

Neglect. That's how.

NewBlacksmurf · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

While I'm not a big PvP fan I think there should be at least 2-3 non CP campaigns as a test to see player interest

OzJohnD · July 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

1) Non-Vet PVP shouldn't even have CPs in the first place. You want your CPs on that char? Go vet...

2) Vet PVP absolutely needs a campaign where CPs are a) Limited, perhaps 360 or so max, and b) If not possible to limit them, disable them entirely. You'll still keep earning them as you pvp and all that, they're just either limited or disabled, whatever is possible.

The CP system itself needs a lot of work on, the strength unbalance is too obvious. CP system is something that needs to be greatly limited anyway, 3.6K points is too much. 600 points should be absolute max in my opinion.

absolutely ... when I returned to ESO after a PC break and transferring to console, the CP system was the most noticable change (apart from the justice system) ... I see the need to reward those hard core grinder type playes so they would stay in ESO having exhausted every other reason to stay, but the gap between 3600 CPs and a hundred or so is significant.

It seems to me to be like not battle leveling players entering Cyrodil so V14s would always win over non V toons.

There has to be a PvP leveler (for those who want it) that negates CP differentials. Leave the differential in environments for those willing to have that, but provide a more level environment for those who want that

technohic · July 2015

Someone please @ me if they ever do. Save me from watching these forums and then maybe i can play some alts in non-vet without worrying about being behind and not making any progress.

markt84 · July 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

While I'm not a big PvP fan I think there should be at least 2-3 non CP campaigns as a test to see player interest

Console gamers would flock to it, the cp points might not me an issue on PC because the bar was raised after the majority of the players hit the leveling wall. On consoles there was no wall, just an open door, and PC transfers were already through the wall over the hill and made it to the next town drooling waiting for us to lit level 10. The. Get on here and say cp don't matter. Non-cp would be a ghost town on PC, but would be the most popular campaign on consoles. I don't see how any new player could even think about walking into PvP on PC. And by the end of the year, the same will be said about consoles

marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO · July 2015

Op nice thread and as a very new player...you are truly speaking too me..

literally I have grappled with the idea of subbing and helping out ZOS

I've got plenty of money but why should I support a game that flat out does

take concerns from the community seriously AND I can say this because reading
the forums I can see how they have blatantly let people exploit the %^%^%^ out of
this game.

They copied wvw from GW2 they should of also copied their model of a balanced PVP by making
sure everyone was on equal footing.

Time and time again I've heard how they want PVP to be competetive....really? really? competetive?

HOW?

I'm at level 45 and I am dealing with some of these CP people on BWB and it's getting really annoying.

You want to retain players? You want us to support your F2P game by subbing?

I don't think you do. On ESO live you dodge all the controversrial topics instead you guys want to talk about

Inside jobs the devs are doing ...why don't you guys talk about how you plan to Hotfix so many glitches this game
has. OR how you plan to fix PVP?

Once Fallout 4 and MGSV5 come out I'm bolting if these problems persist and I may never come back. I'm sure the eletists could care less if I did not come back to the game but that's lost revenue to ZOS at this point I am even contemplating the 59.99 I spent on this game and wishing sometimes I didn't.

I love Elder Scrolls series as I am sure many of you do...do only reason I bought the game is because this is the only Elder Scrolls game I do not have and I felt like I was missing out on some of the Lore and History of the franchise.

But I digress I am severely disappointed by what's going on here. Long time players scoff and the new ones that come in with questions of fairness because they have learned to live with all the problems because they have 4-5 VR14 characters and are set in the game....what about the new players?

Back to the OP tho respect for you and for your concerns THEY are valid all of them and I hope the devs figure this out...
or this game will go the way Vanguard did...lights off, go home....really pun intended INTO OBLIVION.

marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

YOu guys create a non-CP standard campaign I will jump in quickly and leave all the CP people alone and they can gank each other all day long.

NewBlacksmurf · July 2015

Serious question tho...wouldn't the VR levels be a bigger issue?
Vs
Champion points

I'm maybe part of the prob but I don't have over 100 cp so I didn't think it that much of an impact

Woman · July 2015

It really means a lot to me that you guys have bumped this thread. When I wrote this, I think a lot of people just thought I was whining but I was actually coming at it from the perspective CP benefiting me. I almost have 200 and there are only 4 people in all of Blackwater that can kill me- and no, I don't think that's just because of my player skill. I get called a hacker when I 1vX, and im fairly new to PvP in the grand scheme of things. The end effect of this is a 1% of elite players in Blackwater that are that way because of their CP. I'm sure it's incredibly frustrating for new players, especially that they can only catch up to me once they leave non-vet.

Rhakon · July 2015

When new players reach v14 their frustration is not ending, close the gap is almost impossible.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · July 2015

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

Rev Rielle · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

Brilliant.
Thank you, Brian.

Dru1076 · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

That's such good news. I should have realised it would be a bit trickier than one might think...but I'm happy to know its in the works and understand everyone must be extra busy right now with all that's going on.

I've been worried about this for a while, but I swear you'll not hear another peep out of me on cp's. Thank you @ZOS_BrianWheeler ...you have given me back my sweetroll.

Woman · July 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler, but do you plan on making the nonvet campaign cp free too? I understand the need for a vet cp free campaign but it would defeat the purpose of non vet if that campaign was just a normal one that vets could get to.

LegendaryMage · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

Brian, you guys need to definitely add either a CP free vet campaign (or two), or greatly limit them if it's not possible to disable entirely (360 points or less, anyone can get there in a reasonable amount of time). Non-vet pvp shouldn't have CPs enabled at all, as others have mentioned.

But yeah, if we could have 1 or 2 campaigns with no (or greatly limited, whichever is possible) CPs, then that would be perfect!

Azurulia · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

That's fantastic news!

Woman wrote: »

It really means a lot to me that you guys have bumped this thread. When I wrote this, I think a lot of people just thought I was whining but I was actually coming at it from the perspective CP benefiting me. I almost have 200 and there are only 4 people in all of Blackwater that can kill me- and no, I don't think that's just because of my player skill. I get called a hacker when I 1vX, and im fairly new to PvP in the grand scheme of things. The end effect of this is a 1% of elite players in Blackwater that are that way because of their CP. I'm sure it's incredibly frustrating for new players, especially that they can only catch up to me once they leave non-vet.

It's really not that hard to figure out if a player has a lot of CP or not when you fight them. Those who have a ton can be very difficult to kill compared to another joe you smoked quickly. They just take longer to kill in general and hit harder. I don't know how stats and gear scale in BWB, so some times I am unsure if it's an issue of gear or CP.

Sure, some players are pretty good, but sometimes you are left wondering why player X of same class hit so much harder then player Y, or why player A just seemed so much more difficult to kill then player B.

I know that while I am a newer player, I am not too bad at pvp already from my experience in pvp in general over many other games. It's simply matter of converting it into using this games mechanics and abilities, while learning other classes abilities and mechanics to know how to react to and counter them.

Bromburak · July 2015

LegendaryMage wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

Brian, you guys need to definitely add either a CP free vet campaign(or two), or greatly limit them if it's not possible to disable entirely (360 points or less, anyone can get there in a reasonable amount of time). Non-vet pvp shouldn't have CPs enabled at all, as others have mentioned.

That's still the idea.

ZOS_BiranWheeler wrote:

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

Morridune · July 2015

im all for making it so non vet characters can't benefit from the CP system im a little leery about the wholesale removal of them from pvp for vets. And to clarify I only have 1 vet toon who its V5 with around 36CP (total) so hardly the most overpowered, my reasoning however is twofold and as follows:

Firstly, the CP system dose add some longevity to the game giving more incentive to play past the point of hitting the level cap and you final set of gears especially for non pvp'ers, this ultimately helps to keep up player population meaning there should still be plenty of people about to form groups etc in pve to get through instances as there'll be a direct benefit to them even of they no longer need to farm gear sets from there. Which is a boon to players who aren't in big guilds or simply due to RL play at more random times/casually.

Secondly, from looking at a lot of what they seem to be implementing in the new update due next month most of the changes appear to be made with a mind of the current CP system in place I.E the reductions in stam/magika regen scaling costs for repeated usage of different abilities (surge, doge roll or new block mechanics for a brief start) all points to Zenimax balancing the meta away from CP farmers simply facerolling in either pve or pvp as a higher amount of resource management will return to end game play

Ultimately the CP added something more to the game how positive or negative an addition it was is subjective but I do feel removing content is a step backwards rather than an improvement. What I think might work better would be a form of battle levelling inside pvp area's to the different abilities players with lower CP have invested points into, that way its not removing stuff but giving a bit more incentive for players to jump in and have a go. Say for example you get a 25-50% boost to you're current bonuses so if you have for example a 10% buff from Warlord in pvp it would translate to 12.5-15% obviously with a cap so it means to get the max benefits from investing CP you'd still need to go out and level them and not simply gimp the players who have already invested time in doing so.

Another and possibly the easiest to implement could be in pvp players get the bonuses for investing broken up into bands of 25 so again using Warlord as our test example if you have 1-25 points you get full benefit of having 25points, 26-50 full benefit of having 50 points 51-75 full benefit of having invested 75 points and 76+ you get the max bonuses while in a pvp zone with you getting the normal buffs for what you have actually invested while in the pve area's. This system would mean pvp wise the is less disparity while keeping benefits to the players who go get the CP in pve for things like competitive trails etc

That's just me kinda spit balling couple of idea's but I do think rather than been over negative and taking away from what we have it'd be better to build on what there is to make it more fair/balanced for everyone

technohic · July 2015

Not sure where this "360" limit is coming from. That would literally do nothing about the situation for new players as isn't that where the most gain comes from? Also does nothing for non-vet.

That's also about a year of getting 1 CP a day which doesn't sound like much but I would want to be more welcoming to people who may only play 4-8 hours in a week and making a lot of that time grinding points for a year is not why you would do this. You would do this to encourage people to be in, enjoying Cyrodiil ASAP. Not getting people in there easily and immediately I feel has been a mistake from day one launch with vet ranks and continued with CPs.

In the end; I'd say you do it to be all inclusive, not just make it to where someone else has a clear cut line they need to reach to be the big fish in the small pond.

J2JMC · July 2015

Just occur ed to me that vet ranks are supposed to be removed next year after orisinium is released. That being the case, I'm assuming there won't even be vet or non-vet campaigns. In which case, the best solution is probably to just make campaigns that ignore a character's cp. As far as right now goes, not allowing cp to be used on characters below level 50 would solve the non-vet issue.

marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

nice.....

OzJohnD · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

seriously awesome ... look forward to the time it can be coded

marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO · July 2015

Azurulia wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

That's fantastic news!

Woman wrote: »

It really means a lot to me that you guys have bumped this thread. When I wrote this, I think a lot of people just thought I was whining but I was actually coming at it from the perspective CP benefiting me. I almost have 200 and there are only 4 people in all of Blackwater that can kill me- and no, I don't think that's just because of my player skill. I get called a hacker when I 1vX, and im fairly new to PvP in the grand scheme of things. The end effect of this is a 1% of elite players in Blackwater that are that way because of their CP. I'm sure it's incredibly frustrating for new players, especially that they can only catch up to me once they leave non-vet.

It's really not that hard to figure out if a player has a lot of CP or not when you fight them. Those who have a ton can be very difficult to kill compared to another joe you smoked quickly. They just take longer to kill in general and hit harder. I don't know how stats and gear scale in BWB, so some times I am unsure if it's an issue of gear or CP.

Sure, some players are pretty good, but sometimes you are left wondering why player X of same class hit so much harder then player Y, or why player A just seemed so much more difficult to kill then player B.

I know that while I am a newer player, I am not too bad at pvp already from my experience in pvp in general over many other games. It's simply matter of converting it into using this games mechanics and abilities, while learning other classes abilities and mechanics to know how to react to and counter them.

I sometimes down 14 level players quickly as a NB with my Bow while they are on the catapults..and then I run into a level 12 player who just stands there and takes literally like 10 shots from my bow and the health bar barely goes down...I am so glad they are planning to do this...will get working on my other ALTS great news!! now all the CP people can go gank each other in their CP world

Funkopotamus · July 2015

The BEST thing ZOS could do for the future of ESO is to allow NO CP options for PvP!

If the end game consist mostly of PvP then you are basically shooting yourself in the foot as there will not be people buying this game in a few months for the simple fact of just getting trolled be transfers or never being able to catch up to a competitive level.

That being said ESO is a great game. ZOS has just made some very risky decisions.

When I die in PvP I want to know I messed up or was outplayed. I do not want to think "Man if only I did not have a job or a real life"