Personofsecrets wrote: »@DDuke
I almost forgot that @grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?
Well he's not a developer of this game, is he?
Regardless, the whole point completely escaped you again.
What I meant to illustrate was the ignorance of people who claim they know a system & how it functions (or will function) better than the people who made it.
Without even knowing the full extent of incoming changes and how they function in practice.
I think this simple fact has been communicated quite a few times so far in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.
Instead of providing destructive criticism, simply demanding for dismantling of something you don't understand, you should be asking for more information, or testing the change yourself in PTS so you can leave feedback that isn't just ignorant assumptions.
Personofsecrets wrote: »That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying.
Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »Anyone that says tanking is easy or is only taunting and blocking dosnt play a tank or if they do they are a terrible tank.
Personofsecrets wrote: »olemanwinter wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?
Not sure if serious.
That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.
First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.
The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.
Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.
olemanwinter wrote: »What if they're trying to improve the tanking (and subsequently whole PvE aspect) of the game by making this change?
I don't think anyone doubts they are TRYING to improve the game. That doesn't make it a good idea.
A change isn't necessarily positive just because it's motivated by good intentions.
Personofsecrets wrote: »@DDuke
I almost forgot that grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?
Well he's not a developer of this game, is he?
Regardless, the whole point completely escaped you again.
What I meant to illustrate was the ignorance of people who claim they know a system & how it functions (or will function) better than the people who made it.
Without even knowing the full extent of incoming changes and how they function in practice.
I think this simple fact has been communicated quite a few times so far in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.
Instead of providing destructive criticism, simply demanding for dismantling of something you don't understand, you should be asking for more information, or testing the change yourself in PTS so you can leave feedback that isn't just ignorant assumptions.
This is my shocked face.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly
Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »olemanwinter wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?
Not sure if serious.
That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.
First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.
The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.
Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.
Please, stop trying to put words in others' mouths because not every last little thing was spelled out between the lines, which makes not only for tedious writing but boring reading. Read and think about what's being written. I'm saying that holding block down isn't mandatory, and that those who do will easily adjust (as most have also told me directly). Can you hold block down without paying attnetion now? Yep. Do some out of laziness and convenience? Yep. Do the majority of the ones I've spoken with, both in the guilds I'm in such as Order of Mundus, Nightfighters, and the many I am contacted by often enough covering the majority of the top leaderboard spots in the NA megaserver, feel that this change will have much impact at all on them? Absolutely not, is the overall feeling I have been getting from virtually all of them. A couple are/were concerned, and out of those they haven't voiced any concern of it being "too hard" or requiring a drastic change in how they tank. I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly, personally, but I do run the Trials frequently as well and am not only guilded with the top tanks on NA but also chat with a lot of the rest fairly regularly from both the PVE and PVP focused guilds in the game. Have fun out there.
A few may have issues with the adjustment as you seem to feel you will, but you'll catch up soon enough in any case to everyone else on that once you spend a week with it. The objective fact is that in ESO the tanking system is quite literally the simplest functional one you can create for an online game design including the second-simplest agro system (the most basic is to not have any forcible agro with even binary taunts as ESO utilizes and have it be based only on damage/healing totals in a table), and extremely easy to deal with as a result. Alongside that, the game's power allocation quotas allow the vast majority of tanking mechanics present in RPG titles to be ignored outright such as threat management, avoidance/mitigation, and mostly resource management on the PVE end. Subjectively, there's little way to argue that makes for a difficult tanking experience let alone one that provides compelling gameplay.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »@DDuke
I almost forgot that @grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?
Well he's not a developer of this game, is he?
Regardless, the whole point completely escaped you again.
What I meant to illustrate was the ignorance of people who claim they know a system & how it functions (or will function) better than the people who made it.
Without even knowing the full extent of incoming changes and how they function in practice.
I think this simple fact has been communicated quite a few times so far in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.
Instead of providing destructive criticism, simply demanding for dismantling of something you don't understand, you should be asking for more information, or testing the change yourself in PTS so you can leave feedback that isn't just ignorant assumptions.
Again, the developers are not all knowing. We have gone over the many issues that developers have created, despite their testing, in this thread and you seemed to have agreed that they do a bunch of silly stuff.
Personofsecrets wrote: »So what is your new argument going to be if the stam regen change hits pts and most people dont like it?
olemanwinter wrote: »This is my shocked face.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly
This is my laughing face at the whinefest one night id seen for a good hour straight in PVP one night about his frags hitting some dude for 500dmg and tried to rally a petition to get nirn changed in a hotfix cause he couldn't kill anyone.
olemanwinter wrote: »This is my laughing face at the whinefest one night id seen for a good hour straight in PVP one night about his frags hitting some dude for 500dmg and tried to rally a petition to get nirn changed in a hotfix cause he couldn't kill anyone.
WUT? I don't even play a Sorc. I don't use frags. I really have no idea what you're even talking about. I don't think I'm who you think I am.
But you seem like just the type I would expect to coming running to attorneyatlawls defense. lol
U made a riot in cyrodiil the other night, wont soon forget it!
U made a riot in haderus the other night, wont soon forget it!
Mr user number almost 5million, whose the new guy again?
Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »But the problem with content being easy has nothing to do with tanks... it has to do with the insane amounts of dps so if this was aimed at making pve better it wouldnt be changing the tanks it would be nerfing the dps. This is only about pvp. Anyone that says tanking is easy or is only taunting and blocking dosnt play a tank or if they do they are a terrible tank.
Many fights you have to hold block and only drop it so you can run faster to the next issue you need to deal with.
How can this possibly make pve any better? Tanks will have less resources and because of it they will have to do less then they already do. And one thing people seem to complain about is tanks only taunt everything and block. So they are going to force tanks to be able to do less then that? how is this better?
Personofsecrets wrote: »olemanwinter wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?
Not sure if serious.
That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.
First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.
The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.
Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.
zomnomnombie wrote: »@Attorneyatlawl
You haven't spoken to me. Is it because I'm bad?
Anyway those tanks have lied to you, are drastically unaware of how much blocking they actually do or have healers wasting unnecessary globals on healing.
Being able to block cast almost everything makes not blocking bad practice. When a tank is not blocking on high damage fights, Mantikora, HM Conjured Axes, HM Serpent, the tank's damage curve is incredibly erratic. Healers will have higher magicka and higher spell damage and will easily out DPS a tank on these fights if they're not wasting globals on healing silly spike damage.
High end VDSA runs require zero actual tanking skills (aside from taunt) and gear but it does require the ol' piercearmorholdrightmousebuttonspamoneabilityoverandover we have all come to love. Because as I said healing is a waste of globals because the entire game is built on one shots and DPS races.
Stam builds are ridiculously overpowered in DSA and permablockcasting wastes resources but it's faster than getting cc'd or making your healer stop DPS'ing to heal a spike. And since everything is based on speed more RMB for everyone!
Now while I disagree with your assessment of the current game. I don't disagree with the changes.
-Tanking is a faceroll and always has been.
-I don't like permablocking.
-I weave all my abilities inbetween blocks for ultimate regen and to not fall asleep.
-I don't like the taunt immunity changes because now we don't even have to count anymore.
-I think the stam regen change is good and I've been practicing my heavy attacks on Mantikora and Axes. (Templars pop shield and heavy attack after the boss(or axe) does a heavy attack).
-Serpent and Warrior will still be snoozefests until they implement a threat table or something.
-I'd like to put points into tenacity because I like that constellation more.
olemanwinter wrote: »U made a riot in haderus the other night, wont soon forget it!
What...on....earth....are you talking about?
I haven't played in Haderus AT ALL for 3 months. THREE MONTHS since I played in that campaign at all.
I will say this again.....because you're apparently dense as a stone.
You are confusing me for someone else. I don't play in Haderus. I don't play a Sorc.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but you need to take a valium or a xanax or something and rethink things.Mr user number almost 5million, whose the new guy again?
I don't even know what ^ that ^ means. Literally gibberish. Is English your first language?
zomnomnombie wrote: »@Attorneyatlawl
You haven't spoken to me. Is it because I'm bad?
Anyway those tanks have lied to you, are drastically unaware of how much blocking they actually do or have healers wasting unnecessary globals on healing.
Being able to block cast almost everything makes not blocking bad practice. When a tank is not blocking on high damage fights, Mantikora, HM Conjured Axes, HM Serpent, the tank's damage curve is incredibly erratic. Healers will have higher magicka and higher spell damage and will easily out DPS a tank on these fights if they're not wasting globals on healing silly spike damage.
High end VDSA runs require zero actual tanking skills (aside from taunt) and gear but it does require the ol' piercearmorholdrightmousebuttonspamoneabilityoverandover we have all come to love. Because as I said healing is a waste of globals because the entire game is built on one shots and DPS races.
Stam builds are ridiculously overpowered in DSA and permablockcasting wastes resources but it's faster than getting cc'd or making your healer stop DPS'ing to heal a spike. And since everything is based on speed more RMB for everyone!
Now while I disagree with your assessment of the current game. I don't disagree with the changes.
-Tanking is a faceroll and always has been.
-I don't like permablocking.
-I weave all my abilities inbetween blocks for ultimate regen and to not fall asleep.
-I don't like the taunt immunity changes because now we don't even have to count anymore.
-I think the stam regen change is good and I've been practicing my heavy attacks on Mantikora and Axes. (Templars pop shield and heavy attack after the boss(or axe) does a heavy attack).
-Serpent and Warrior will still be snoozefests until they implement a threat table or something.
-I'd like to put points into tenacity because I like that constellation more.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Thanks for posting Zom. You can probably tell that I am not for the stamina regeneration nerf, but too many people have been getting away with basing their argument from a faulty idea of what tanks are supposedly doing so I am glad you stopped by.
I am surprised that you are able to fit in heavy attacks against the axes. It is also interesting to hear you bring up the change to taunt mechanics.
I think that the developers foresaw some universe in which multiple tanks are put on raids in order to diminish the stamina regeneration change. It is also possible that they saw the current taunt system as too confusing for some reason.
Either way, all of the people saying how tanking is to be more skill intensive in the future, due to the nerf, fail to talk about the taunt change. Because of that taunt change, I don't know if a skillful game was one that the developers had in mind when thinking about the stamina regeneration nerf.
Had a DSA run last time.
I played the tank. Had to pull 5 to 6 mobs on myself else the team's squishies would had been devastated. Which happened whenever I was not keeping agro. (We reached the last boss, btw team was vet5-7)
Now, I cant yet really imagine how it's possible to lower the shield when there are like 4-5 mobs banging it 24 hours. If I can I weave in a skill or heavy attack, but most the time my role is threat control. Not like I am permablocking, sometimes it may look like it, because there's no window among the enemy attacks to slip in anything other than a shield bash.
So.We'd need to have our stams regends in these few sec windows, when the enemy just finished one attack and I can lower the shield?
Wow.
I might not have a vivid imagination but I am yet to see how this would work. Maybe if the other classes become more tanky. Dunno. My experience is, that NBs, mages usually go down pretty swift if the tank falls asleep.
Personofsecrets wrote: »@Attorneyatlawl , Let me help you understand why it's important to bring up what tanks are actually doing.1. You justified your opinions based on second hand information about what tanks are really doing.
2. Despite having all of that information, you then went on to give an incorrect view of ultimate regeneration for tanks.
The point being, if you are getting your information second hand and you don't even know how ultimate generation works for tanks, then you probably aren't an authority on the subject. Since you aren't an authority on the subject it is more likely that you don't know what is and what isn't good about the stamina regeneration nerf when considering how such a nerf effects tanks.
And, contrary to what your claim about me would have others believe, you have been the one derailing conversations. I have directly told you reasons why the stamina regeneration nerf doesn't work with your point of view on tanking. It is therefore baffling that you have found no good points to be brought up against the stamina regeneration nerf.
One of those reasons that I told to you which could make the nerf to be a failure, for example, was with regards to how stamina regeneration ticks work. You responded to that point, not by acknowledging it, but by bringing up a wild tangent about how the best tanks don't hold down block and, of all things, gibberish about scaled court conjurers. You ignored what I said and casually shifted the goal posts of the discussion to a different topic.
Further more, it is becoming more clear that you are arguing in bad faith. You shift the goal posts. You fail to acknowledge points brought up that are contrary to your point of view. You claim that words have been put in your mouth, but fail to ever identify what those words were. You claim that I derail conversations when that is what you are doing. When an authority on tanking discussed the reasons of why continuously holding block is done by tanks, even if they don't like doing so, you tried to paint a picture that they somehow are in wholehearted agreement with your earlier comments about what the best tanks are doing. Finally, some of what you write is incoherent.
Explain why, despite all of the clear flaws in your argumentation, that your opinion on the stamina regeneration nerf matters.