PvE Tanking Future. - DO NOT GET RID OF STAM REGEN WHILE BLOCKING IN PVE

Personofsecrets · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke

I almost forgot that @grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?

Well he's not a developer of this game, is he?

Regardless, the whole point completely escaped you again.

What I meant to illustrate was the ignorance of people who claim they know a system & how it functions (or will function) better than the people who made it.

Without even knowing the full extent of incoming changes and how they function in practice.

I think this simple fact has been communicated quite a few times so far in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Instead of providing destructive criticism, simply demanding for dismantling of something you don't understand, you should be asking for more information, or testing the change yourself in PTS so you can leave feedback that isn't just ignorant assumptions.

Again, the developers are not all knowing. We have gone over the many issues that developers have created, despite their testing, in this thread and you seemed to have agreed that they do a bunch of silly stuff.

So what is your new argument going to be if the stam regen change hits pts and most people dont like it?

Here I'll give you a few ideas for the future.

1. Players have to go along with whatever the developers want because.
2. Players that don't like the change are just whining
3. The change is still needed even if people dont like it because PVE is such a snore fest
4. Anything could happen after PTS so we should just go along with it

olemanwinter · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying.

In my experience with his previous threads and my unfortunate experience of having played with him in game a couple of times, I would heavily discount anything he says as complete unmitigated nonsense.

olemanwinter · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that says tanking is easy or is only taunting and blocking dosnt play a tank or if they do they are a terrible tank.

I agree. And who says "taunting and blocking" is easy? That is like saying driving an 18 wheeler is easy because all you do is "steer, shift, and press pedals".

Yes, there are times when holding aggro and not dying is exceptionally easy. But there are also times where it's all a tank can do.

Imagine trying to tank all the axes during the last boss of Aetherian Archive without blocking. It's just silly.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Not sure if serious.

That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.

First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.

The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.

Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.

Please, have the basic social courtesy to stop trying to put words in others' mouths because not every last little detail was spelled out between the lines, which makes not only for tedious writing but boring reading. Look at the opposing viewpoints and think about what's being written. I'm saying that holding block down isn't mandatory, and that those who do will easily adjust (as most have also told me directly). Can you hold block down without paying attnetion now? Yep. Do some out of laziness and convenience? Yep. Do the majority of the ones I've spoken with, both in the guilds I'm in such as Order of Mundus, Nightfighters, and the many I am contacted by often enough covering the majority of the top leaderboard spots in the NA megaserver, feel that this change will have much impact at all on them? Absolutely not, is the overall feeling I have been getting from virtually all of them. A couple are/were concerned, and out of those they haven't voiced any concern of it being "too hard" or requiring a drastic change in how they tank. I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly, personally, but I do run the Trials frequently as well and am not only guilded with the top tanks on NA but also chat with a lot of the rest fairly regularly from both the PVE and PVP focused guilds in the game. Have fun out there

.

A few may have issues with the adjustment as you seem to feel you will, but you'll catch up soon enough in any case to everyone else on that once you spend a week with it. The objective fact is that in ESO the tanking system is quite literally the simplest functional one you can create for an online game design including the second-simplest agro system (the most basic is to not have any forcible agro with even binary taunts as ESO utilizes and have it be based only on damage/healing totals in a table), and extremely easy to deal with as a result. Alongside that, the game's power allocation quotas allow the vast majority of tanking mechanics present in RPG titles to be ignored outright such as threat management, avoidance/mitigation, and mostly resource management on the PVE end. Subjectively, there's little way to argue that makes for a difficult tanking experience let alone one that provides compelling gameplay.

olemanwinter wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What if they're trying to improve the tanking (and subsequently whole PvE aspect) of the game by making this change?

I don't think anyone doubts they are TRYING to improve the game. That doesn't make it a good idea.

A change isn't necessarily positive just because it's motivated by good intentions.

There's yet to be any substantial argument as to why it would not be an improvement, and a whole host of reasons as to why it should be. As an offhand suggestion, you might find using even a basic combat log addon will help you notice what's happening during gameplay in PVP. Far be it from me to tell you how to play, but given that you had been calling out the Nirnhoned trait as the reasoning for your hits suffering a 90% reduction in damage against enemies, it'd probably be less frustrating to know what's actually happening

. I wrote a brief introduction about how blocking works and its cost mechanics awhile ago if you're interested: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/170190/on-the-topic-of-permablocking-math-and-fiction

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke

I almost forgot that grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?

Well he's not a developer of this game, is he?

Regardless, the whole point completely escaped you again.

What I meant to illustrate was the ignorance of people who claim they know a system & how it functions (or will function) better than the people who made it.

Without even knowing the full extent of incoming changes and how they function in practice.

I think this simple fact has been communicated quite a few times so far in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Instead of providing destructive criticism, simply demanding for dismantling of something you don't understand, you should be asking for more information, or testing the change yourself in PTS so you can leave feedback that isn't just ignorant assumptions.

At least personally, I already am pretty well aware of how it will play out from never having done it differently than will be optimal in the new patch

, and many of the tanks I've spoken with haven't been either, with virtually all indicating they don't see any issue arising from it and being indifferent at worst to the change. However, complaining to not even have it put onto the test server whether there was concern with a real basis or not, is a very good example of what you called "destructive criticism". Instead of seeing how it works for them, they immediately have jumped to demanding it never be tested let alone live, because they assume it will be too difficult. That's how we ended up with world mobs that die in one hit while leveling veteran toons now, though. I'd rather not see trials/dungeons/any future arenas turn into the same relative level of difficulty

.

olemanwinter · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly

This is my shocked face.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Not sure if serious.

That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.

First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.

The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.

Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.

Please, stop trying to put words in others' mouths because not every last little thing was spelled out between the lines, which makes not only for tedious writing but boring reading. Read and think about what's being written. I'm saying that holding block down isn't mandatory, and that those who do will easily adjust (as most have also told me directly). Can you hold block down without paying attnetion now? Yep. Do some out of laziness and convenience? Yep. Do the majority of the ones I've spoken with, both in the guilds I'm in such as Order of Mundus, Nightfighters, and the many I am contacted by often enough covering the majority of the top leaderboard spots in the NA megaserver, feel that this change will have much impact at all on them? Absolutely not, is the overall feeling I have been getting from virtually all of them. A couple are/were concerned, and out of those they haven't voiced any concern of it being "too hard" or requiring a drastic change in how they tank. I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly, personally, but I do run the Trials frequently as well and am not only guilded with the top tanks on NA but also chat with a lot of the rest fairly regularly from both the PVE and PVP focused guilds in the game. Have fun out there .

A few may have issues with the adjustment as you seem to feel you will, but you'll catch up soon enough in any case to everyone else on that once you spend a week with it. The objective fact is that in ESO the tanking system is quite literally the simplest functional one you can create for an online game design including the second-simplest agro system (the most basic is to not have any forcible agro with even binary taunts as ESO utilizes and have it be based only on damage/healing totals in a table), and extremely easy to deal with as a result. Alongside that, the game's power allocation quotas allow the vast majority of tanking mechanics present in RPG titles to be ignored outright such as threat management, avoidance/mitigation, and mostly resource management on the PVE end. Subjectively, there's little way to argue that makes for a difficult tanking experience let alone one that provides compelling gameplay.

Whats your point? Things should change because players feel that they could cope with a change? Things should change because you find the current game too simple?

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

DDuke · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke

I almost forgot that @grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?

Well he's not a developer of this game, is he?

Regardless, the whole point completely escaped you again.

What I meant to illustrate was the ignorance of people who claim they know a system & how it functions (or will function) better than the people who made it.

Without even knowing the full extent of incoming changes and how they function in practice.

I think this simple fact has been communicated quite a few times so far in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Instead of providing destructive criticism, simply demanding for dismantling of something you don't understand, you should be asking for more information, or testing the change yourself in PTS so you can leave feedback that isn't just ignorant assumptions.

Again, the developers are not all knowing. We have gone over the many issues that developers have created, despite their testing, in this thread and you seemed to have agreed that they do a bunch of silly stuff.

Developers are not all knowing, but you are?

Don't answer that.

If you're not all knowing, then all you are currently doing is making ignorant assumptions about something you know very little of (the upcoming changes).

Personofsecrets wrote: »

So what is your new argument going to be if the stam regen change hits pts and most people dont like it?

Why would I need a new argument, when in the first place it was: test things out, they might work differently than you expect
and make the game better.

If that's not the case, then of course you leave feedback, same as I.

I'm not claiming these changes will make PvE awesome, only that they might (just as they might not).

We simply do not know.

Smiteye · July 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly

This is my shocked face.

This is my laughing face at the whinefest one night id seen for a good hour straight in PVP one night about his frags hitting some dude for 500dmg and tried to rally a petition to get nirn changed in a hotfix cause he couldn't kill anyone.

I'm 100% shocked-face your scared that tanking is gonna be hard when its hysterically easy now from a tiny change like this! Wait, no Im not.

olemanwinter · July 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

This is my laughing face at the whinefest one night id seen for a good hour straight in PVP one night about his frags hitting some dude for 500dmg and tried to rally a petition to get nirn changed in a hotfix cause he couldn't kill anyone.

WUT? I don't even play a Sorc. I don't use frags. I really have no idea what you're even talking about. I don't think I'm who you think I am.

But you seem like just the type I would expect to coming running to attorneyatlawls defense. (strange, misinformed, off point, etc) lol

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Wow @DDuke , I am really impressed by how you can flip the script about who is all knowing and who isn't. It is almost as if when someone points out why a previous claim of yours is doubtful that you switch to using a totally different argument.

>Calls anti-nerfers whiners
>Gets called out for making silly claims about how completing veteran dungeons with a roll dodging build is somehow related to tanking being boring.
>Claims I'm not a game dev with the implication that I therefore can't be insightful about the stamina regeneration nerf.
>non-eso game dev shows up with disapproval about the stamina-regen nerf
>Creates the framing that only an eso dev can be insightful
>Gets told to recall the time that they agreed how ESO developers have done plenty of silly stuff in the past
>Changes subject back to being about me

That is a pretty neat trick that you are able to do.

Smiteye · July 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

This is my laughing face at the whinefest one night id seen for a good hour straight in PVP one night about his frags hitting some dude for 500dmg and tried to rally a petition to get nirn changed in a hotfix cause he couldn't kill anyone.

WUT? I don't even play a Sorc. I don't use frags. I really have no idea what you're even talking about. I don't think I'm who you think I am.

But you seem like just the type I would expect to coming running to attorneyatlawls defense. lol

U made a riot in haderus the other night, wont soon forget it! Mr user number almost 5million, whose the new guy again?

olemanwinter · July 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

U made a riot in cyrodiil the other night, wont soon forget it!

About MY frags not hitting for enough damage and wanting Nirn fixed?

LMAO you're delusional.

Read the following as many times as it takes. Pretend there is a bouncing ball if it helps.

I........Don't.......even......play......a......sorc.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Also, players aren't against things being hard. They are against things being possible or even fun. As I pointed out to attorneyatlawl, timing blocking around stamina regeneration ticks that have no indication on the UI while also making sure to block at the right times will be more about overcoming wild chance than overcoming a skill barrier.

Additionally, many players have pointed out that re-blocking at appropriate times isn't necessarily possible when there are things such as in game lag, connection, and fps to overcome.

olemanwinter · July 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

U made a riot in haderus the other night, wont soon forget it!

What...on....earth....are you talking about?

I haven't played in Haderus AT ALL for 3 months. THREE MONTHS since I played in that campaign at all.

I will say this again.....because you're apparently dense as a stone.

You are confusing me for someone else. I don't play in Haderus. I don't play a Sorc.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but you need to take a valium or a xanax or something and rethink things.

Smiteye wrote: »

Mr user number almost 5million, whose the new guy again?

I don't even know what ^ that ^ means. Literally gibberish. Is English your first language?

zomnomnombie · July 2015

@Attorneyatlawl

You haven't spoken to me. Is it because I'm bad?

Anyway those tanks have lied to you, are drastically unaware of how much blocking they actually do or have healers wasting unnecessary globals on healing.

Being able to block cast almost everything makes not blocking bad practice. When a tank is not blocking on high damage fights, Mantikora, HM Conjured Axes, HM Serpent, the tank's damage curve is incredibly erratic. Healers will have higher magicka and higher spell damage and will easily out DPS a tank on these fights if they're not wasting globals on healing silly spike damage.

High end VDSA runs require zero actual tanking skills (aside from taunt) and gear but it does require the ol' piercearmorholdrightmousebuttonspamoneabilityoverandover we have all come to love. Because as I said healing is a waste of globals because the entire game is built on one shots and DPS races.

Stam builds are ridiculously overpowered in DSA and permablockcasting wastes resources but it's faster than getting cc'd or making your healer stop DPS'ing to heal a spike. And since everything is based on speed more RMB for everyone!

Now while I disagree with your assessment of the current game. I don't disagree with the changes.

-Tanking is a faceroll and always has been.
-I don't like permablocking.
-I weave all my abilities inbetween blocks for ultimate regen and to not fall asleep.
-I don't like the taunt immunity changes because now we don't even have to count anymore.
-I think the stam regen change is good and I've been practicing my heavy attacks on Mantikora and Axes. (Templars pop shield and heavy attack after the boss(or axe) does a heavy attack).
-Serpent and Warrior will still be snoozefests until they implement a threat table or something.
-I'd like to put points into tenacity because I like that constellation more.

Avenias · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

But the problem with content being easy has nothing to do with tanks... it has to do with the insane amounts of dps so if this was aimed at making pve better it wouldnt be changing the tanks it would be nerfing the dps. This is only about pvp. Anyone that says tanking is easy or is only taunting and blocking dosnt play a tank or if they do they are a terrible tank.

Many fights you have to hold block and only drop it so you can run faster to the next issue you need to deal with.

How can this possibly make pve any better? Tanks will have less resources and because of it they will have to do less then they already do. And one thing people seem to complain about is tanks only taunt everything and block. So they are going to force tanks to be able to do less then that? how is this better?

Just give it some time mate, most of them will be back complaining.

Avenias · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Not sure if serious.

That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.

First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.

The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.

Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.

The reason they cant make up their mind is because its triggered by impulse reaction. I will guess that they had a rough time with another player in pvp and that made them angry. I wont be surprised if some of those people are even the devs.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

zomnomnombie wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl

You haven't spoken to me. Is it because I'm bad?

Anyway those tanks have lied to you, are drastically unaware of how much blocking they actually do or have healers wasting unnecessary globals on healing.

Being able to block cast almost everything makes not blocking bad practice. When a tank is not blocking on high damage fights, Mantikora, HM Conjured Axes, HM Serpent, the tank's damage curve is incredibly erratic. Healers will have higher magicka and higher spell damage and will easily out DPS a tank on these fights if they're not wasting globals on healing silly spike damage.

High end VDSA runs require zero actual tanking skills (aside from taunt) and gear but it does require the ol' piercearmorholdrightmousebuttonspamoneabilityoverandover we have all come to love. Because as I said healing is a waste of globals because the entire game is built on one shots and DPS races.

Stam builds are ridiculously overpowered in DSA and permablockcasting wastes resources but it's faster than getting cc'd or making your healer stop DPS'ing to heal a spike. And since everything is based on speed more RMB for everyone!

Now while I disagree with your assessment of the current game. I don't disagree with the changes.

-Tanking is a faceroll and always has been.
-I don't like permablocking.
-I weave all my abilities inbetween blocks for ultimate regen and to not fall asleep.
-I don't like the taunt immunity changes because now we don't even have to count anymore.
-I think the stam regen change is good and I've been practicing my heavy attacks on Mantikora and Axes. (Templars pop shield and heavy attack after the boss(or axe) does a heavy attack).
-Serpent and Warrior will still be snoozefests until they implement a threat table or something.
-I'd like to put points into tenacity because I like that constellation more.

Thanks for posting Zom. You can probably tell that I am not for the stamina regeneration nerf, but too many people have been getting away with basing their argument from a faulty idea of what tanks are supposedly doing so I am glad you stopped by.

I am surprised that you are able to fit in heavy attacks against the axes. It is also interesting to hear you bring up the change to taunt mechanics.

I think that the developers foresaw some universe in which multiple tanks are put on raids in order to diminish the stamina regeneration change. It is also possible that they saw the current taunt system as too confusing for some reason.

Either way, all of the people saying how tanking is to be more skill intensive in the future, due to the nerf, fail to talk about the taunt change. Because of that taunt change, I don't know if a skillful game was one that the developers had in mind when thinking about the stamina regeneration nerf.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

U made a riot in haderus the other night, wont soon forget it!

What...on....earth....are you talking about?

I haven't played in Haderus AT ALL for 3 months. THREE MONTHS since I played in that campaign at all.

I will say this again.....because you're apparently dense as a stone.

You are confusing me for someone else. I don't play in Haderus. I don't play a Sorc.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but you need to take a valium or a xanax or something and rethink things.

Smiteye wrote: »

Mr user number almost 5million, whose the new guy again?

I don't even know what ^ that ^ means. Literally gibberish. Is English your first language?

He's referring to your user ID on the forums, which is 4,895,947 I imagine

. EDIT: I may have been mistaken myself as to you being the person complaining specifically, because the conversation I was thinking of around a month ago was you and Olderpete going on for a very long while about nirn in general making your hits do no damage. I just remember you two earned a place of the... probably five? Maybe six? @ names that I have ignored since launch

with that session. *Shrug*

zomnomnombie wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl

You haven't spoken to me. Is it because I'm bad?

Anyway those tanks have lied to you, are drastically unaware of how much blocking they actually do or have healers wasting unnecessary globals on healing.

Being able to block cast almost everything makes not blocking bad practice. When a tank is not blocking on high damage fights, Mantikora, HM Conjured Axes, HM Serpent, the tank's damage curve is incredibly erratic. Healers will have higher magicka and higher spell damage and will easily out DPS a tank on these fights if they're not wasting globals on healing silly spike damage.

High end VDSA runs require zero actual tanking skills (aside from taunt) and gear but it does require the ol' piercearmorholdrightmousebuttonspamoneabilityoverandover we have all come to love. Because as I said healing is a waste of globals because the entire game is built on one shots and DPS races.

Stam builds are ridiculously overpowered in DSA and permablockcasting wastes resources but it's faster than getting cc'd or making your healer stop DPS'ing to heal a spike. And since everything is based on speed more RMB for everyone!

Now while I disagree with your assessment of the current game. I don't disagree with the changes.

-Tanking is a faceroll and always has been.
-I don't like permablocking.
-I weave all my abilities inbetween blocks for ultimate regen and to not fall asleep.
-I don't like the taunt immunity changes because now we don't even have to count anymore.
-I think the stam regen change is good and I've been practicing my heavy attacks on Mantikora and Axes. (Templars pop shield and heavy attack after the boss(or axe) does a heavy attack).
-Serpent and Warrior will still be snoozefests until they implement a threat table or something.
-I'd like to put points into tenacity because I like that constellation more.

@zomnomnombie , I don't know you... so probably not

. The discussion isn't actually about what tanks do or don't do now, although Personof kept trying to derail it into that. Like I said, it's easy as pie to hold down block in this game version and works 100% fine. It isn't a necessity, though, as you pointed out, and by the time you hit up vDSA or PVP with a tank setup at the moment it pretty much is "DPS and spam taunt", which is exactly the problem I was saying exists right now. Largely, how tanks do or don't manage their blocking right now doesn't really have an impact on why the change is needed... character power allocations are way over the top for the requirements of tanking at this time as I mentioned and you hit upon when mentioning not wanting to fall asleep , which is basically the gist of what I've gotten from talking to people who do regularly tank such as (I can tell easily enough by reading the post) yourself.

Adding in not having any threat table and it just being a binary "target is taunted, or target is not" results in, much as I like this game overall, easily the most droll tanking experience I've ever seen in an MMORPG having played back since EverQuest 1 launched

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Thanks for posting Zom. You can probably tell that I am not for the stamina regeneration nerf, but too many people have been getting away with basing their argument from a faulty idea of what tanks are supposedly doing so I am glad you stopped by.

I am surprised that you are able to fit in heavy attacks against the axes. It is also interesting to hear you bring up the change to taunt mechanics.

I think that the developers foresaw some universe in which multiple tanks are put on raids in order to diminish the stamina regeneration change. It is also possible that they saw the current taunt system as too confusing for some reason.

Either way, all of the people saying how tanking is to be more skill intensive in the future, due to the nerf, fail to talk about the taunt change. Because of that taunt change, I don't know if a skillful game was one that the developers had in mind when thinking about the stamina regeneration nerf.

You can weave them in if you time it, like I had said... and yep, given how simplistic the agro management already is, removing the overtaunt immunity simply brings it to the level of "purely mindless" on that front, which is the least of the problems with tanking difficulty. I've joked about that one in-game a bit, since overtaunting wasn't an issue as-is and that just dumbs it down further... in terms of the difficulty of tanking as a whole, it's not a big factor in the first place because of the binary agro system. Like I mentioned above, I don't really care what tanks do or don't do, but you had been insisting that using skills or attacks, or even timing blocks, wasn't possible. I simply mentioned it to demonstrate that it is. Everyone has their playstyle

. However, as I also kept hitting on, it's just downright too easy as-is, whether someone uses a piece of tape on their right mouse-button or not. Being able to skip an extra taunt when FTC doesn't pick up if your hit had landed or not really won't change that. The stamina regen is a small step though.

Avenias · July 2015

double post.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

@Attorneyatlawl , Let me help you understand why it's important to bring up what tanks are actually doing.

1. You justified your opinions based on second hand information about what tanks are really doing.
2. Despite having all of that information, you then went on to give an incorrect view of ultimate regeneration for tanks.

The point being, if you are getting your information second hand and you don't even know how ultimate generation works for tanks, then you probably aren't an authority on the subject. Since you aren't an authority on the subject it is more likely that you don't know what is and what isn't good about the stamina regeneration nerf when considering how such a nerf effects tanks.

And, contrary to what your claim about me would have others believe, you have been the one derailing conversations. I have directly told you reasons why the stamina regeneration nerf doesn't work with your point of view on tanking. It is therefore baffling that you have found no good points to be brought up against the stamina regeneration nerf.

One of those reasons that I told to you which could make the nerf to be a failure, for example, was with regards to how stamina regeneration ticks work. You responded to that point, not by acknowledging it, but by bringing up a wild tangent about how the best tanks don't hold down block and, of all things, gibberish about scaled court conjurers. You ignored what I said and casually shifted the goal posts of the discussion to a different topic.

Further more, it is becoming more clear that you are arguing in bad faith. You shift the goal posts. You fail to acknowledge points brought up that are contrary to your point of view. You claim that words have been put in your mouth, but fail to ever identify what those words were. You claim that I derail conversations when that is what you are doing. When an authority on tanking discussed the reasons of why continuously holding block is done by tanks, even if they don't like doing so, you tried to paint a picture that they somehow are in wholehearted agreement with your earlier comments about what the best tanks are doing. Finally, some of what you write is incoherent.

Explain why, despite all of the clear flaws in your argumentation, that your opinion on the stamina regeneration nerf matters.

Halfwitte · July 2015

What we should be calling for is the nerf of all healers, because all they do is heal! BOL and Healing Springs that's all they do and that's way more boring than tanking. 2 Button presses at max is all they use unless you want to count F for reviving. They can stand there and block and cast BOL AND REGEN MAGICKA WHILE HEALING all at the same time! No skill required. That's way over powered! ZOS is calling for nerfs for tanks when they really should be nerfing the healers, super boring, they don't dps or contribute anything else to the group other than heals.

NERF MAGICKA REGEN WHILE HEALING to make it interesting and more fun for everyone! We don't even need to test it, it's guaranteed to be fun. >>> Positive Feedback right here ZOS <<<
Problem solved. This will not cripple PVE in any way, just trust us and healers will love you more for it and it won't affect PVP at all in the slightest since healers don't PVP.

#Nerfhealers4morejoy

Psychobunni · July 2015

Isn't it kind of comical that the high CP's players are making it so hard for the less CP guys in PVP, so to combat it... they are going to nerf skills, which still benefits the high CP guys over the less CP guys.

It's like Grind Forrest! Grind! (hehehehe we nerfed that too)

Winterpsy · July 2015

Had a DSA run last time.
I played the tank. Had to pull 5 to 6 mobs on myself else the team's squishies would had been devastated. Which happened whenever I was not keeping agro. (We reached the last boss, btw team was vet5-7)

Now, I cant yet really imagine how it's possible to lower the shield when there are like 4-5 mobs banging it 24 hours. If I can I weave in a skill or heavy attack, but most the time my role is threat control. Not like I am permablocking, sometimes it may look like it, because there's no window among the enemy attacks to slip in anything other than a shield bash.

So.We'd need to have our stams regends in these few sec windows, when the enemy just finished one attack and I can lower the shield?
Wow.

I might not have a vivid imagination but I am yet to see how this would work. Maybe if the other classes become more tanky. Dunno. My experience is, that NBs, mages usually go down pretty swift if the tank falls asleep.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

Winterpsy wrote: »

Had a DSA run last time.
I played the tank. Had to pull 5 to 6 mobs on myself else the team's squishies would had been devastated. Which happened whenever I was not keeping agro. (We reached the last boss, btw team was vet5-7)

Now, I cant yet really imagine how it's possible to lower the shield when there are like 4-5 mobs banging it 24 hours. If I can I weave in a skill or heavy attack, but most the time my role is threat control. Not like I am permablocking, sometimes it may look like it, because there's no window among the enemy attacks to slip in anything other than a shield bash.

So.We'd need to have our stams regends in these few sec windows, when the enemy just finished one attack and I can lower the shield?
Wow.

I might not have a vivid imagination but I am yet to see how this would work. Maybe if the other classes become more tanky. Dunno. My experience is, that NBs, mages usually go down pretty swift if the tank falls asleep.

Other classes become more tanky?
So they cripple tanks, taking away their job, which is.... tanking in order to make.... DPS and healers more tanky?

This makes no sense just like this stupid idea "0 stamina regen while blocking"

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl , Let me help you understand why it's important to bring up what tanks are actually doing.
1. You justified your opinions based on second hand information about what tanks are really doing.
2. Despite having all of that information, you then went on to give an incorrect view of ultimate regeneration for tanks.

The point being, if you are getting your information second hand and you don't even know how ultimate generation works for tanks, then you probably aren't an authority on the subject. Since you aren't an authority on the subject it is more likely that you don't know what is and what isn't good about the stamina regeneration nerf when considering how such a nerf effects tanks.

And, contrary to what your claim about me would have others believe, you have been the one derailing conversations. I have directly told you reasons why the stamina regeneration nerf doesn't work with your point of view on tanking. It is therefore baffling that you have found no good points to be brought up against the stamina regeneration nerf.

One of those reasons that I told to you which could make the nerf to be a failure, for example, was with regards to how stamina regeneration ticks work. You responded to that point, not by acknowledging it, but by bringing up a wild tangent about how the best tanks don't hold down block and, of all things, gibberish about scaled court conjurers. You ignored what I said and casually shifted the goal posts of the discussion to a different topic.

Further more, it is becoming more clear that you are arguing in bad faith. You shift the goal posts. You fail to acknowledge points brought up that are contrary to your point of view. You claim that words have been put in your mouth, but fail to ever identify what those words were. You claim that I derail conversations when that is what you are doing. When an authority on tanking discussed the reasons of why continuously holding block is done by tanks, even if they don't like doing so, you tried to paint a picture that they somehow are in wholehearted agreement with your earlier comments about what the best tanks are doing. Finally, some of what you write is incoherent.

Explain why, despite all of the clear flaws in your argumentation, that your opinion on the stamina regeneration nerf matters.

As to point 1, that's not how the conversation went here at all in context if you look at who and when I said each part of the discussion to in turn . My opinion is, and was, justified by what can be done and what some do now... you can easily argue what percentage does X vs. Y in terms of partially blocking vs holding it down, but it's really irrelevant to what is possible or not, and the objective facts very easily prove it's not enough by the numbers to act as a substantial difficulty increase for tanking. It's certainly not even remotely in the realm of the "sky is falling" tack of not even wanting it tried on the test server that you've taken on it.

As to point 2, you've still yet to answer as to how you intend to generate your ultimate at full speed without healing others or using other attacks but block, as I mentioned , which I imagine is because you'd prefer to ignore that part as it doesn't fit with your narrative very well. If you are healing other people in your group to get ultimate, that in and of itself shows that your stance of claiming "Every last bit of tanking skill and mitigation, stamina regen, the whole works" isn't even what you do now or think is the case. On the whole you have waffled back and forth between "Tanking is trivial and my build won't be affected" to "The game is going to be impossible to tank in and thus anyone who disagrees is clueless." I followed along on your tangents as you brought them up... but context is everything when recounting a thread's progression, and you have chosen to completely discard that, instead coming up with a wildly different viewpoint of what was actually discussed in an effort to, for whatever reason, bolster what you feel is your point.

You then continue to cite @zomnomnombie, praising his post as backing you up when the facts he mentioned actually ended up completely disagreeing with you. He stated the same things I did, just disagreeing with my statement that a lot of tanks do not just hold block, which does vary on who you talk to just as if you asked most any slice of the playerbase about an arbitrary facet of their role.

Continuing on, you then sidetracked once more even now, continuingto focus on that minor snippet of conversation to attempt to discredit the counter-argument presenting the facts, and really have yet to come to show any reason you think it will make tanking extremely difficult outside of opinion so strong you don't want it to even hit the test server.

Zomnom's post actually states the same facts as to how tanking works now, just with a different viewpoint as to how things are currently done by "most", and then concludes with him mentioning that he is looking at doing the same types of things I had told you previously were completely doable, and that some currently do.

Let's take his post point by point, with my comments in bold:

"-Tanking is a faceroll and always has been. Just as I mentioned before, it is and has been so extremely easy to the point where everyone basically has gone to the meta of hybridization for DPS or healing by now
-I don't like permablocking. I don't permablock on the occasions I have tanked because it isn't a necessity, and is obscenely droll.
-I weave all my abilities inbetween blocks for ultimate regen and to not fall asleep. That's the same thing I do, and already mentioned to you, @Personofsecrets, as feasible. Yet you continued to insist it was not.
-I don't like the taunt immunity changes because now we don't even have to count anymore. Previously mentioned, though I don't recall if I did so on the forums, but it's a minor facet in the first place as you have a huge leniency in risk of overtaunting now regardless (it takes three taunts inside of the timespan one lasts for, and then they gain the immunity until that first one rolls off... it's a rare-if-ever issue to run into other than brand new tanks).
-I think the stam regen change is good and I've been practicing my heavy attacks on Mantikora and Axes. (Templars pop shield and heavy attack after the boss(or axe) does a heavy attack). I don't regularly tank trials, but that's what I brought up the concept of swing timers for and how spaced-out the Manti's swings are alongside the autoattacks hitting for trivial amounts (the power attacks need to be blocked or you run into the issue @zomnomnombie brought up of taking too much spike damage, even though you live through it... but those have multi-second-long windups with very clear animations to tell you it's coming, and so are easily blocked by pressing the button ).
-Serpent and Warrior will still be snoozefests until they implement a threat table or something. Just as mentioned, the tanking system used in ESO is extremely simplistic, and pretty much as simple as you can go in an online game other than using raw healing/damage numbers in a table as I had said. There is nothing but binary "Boss taunted, yes/no?" to it.
-I'd like to put points into tenacity because I like that constellation more. I hadn't touched on that ."

So yes, while @zomnomnombie and I have different accounts or crowds we run with as to whether or not we feel most tanks do X vs. Y in terms of how much they block, our conclusions largely ended up being identical. My very original comment to you, @Personofsecrets , was that you didn't have to hold block the entire time, not that no one chooses to... it's easy enough now that a great many I'm sure do as a percentage of the playerbase because of the obvious reasoning: "Why put in extra effort when it doesn't give much of a benefit?").

Now, if we could get back to actually talking about the topic, rather than your character attacks? Maybe there'd be some discussion happening again. The numbers on damage intake and swing timers, ultimate generation mechanics such as needing to get the basic ultimate generation buff by either light/heavy attacking or healing an ally who has done so and is currently gaining ultimate from the innate "Heroism" ticks don't magically change based on how often one tanks trials or not. For whatever reason, you've continuously laser-focused in on how often I tank, when that's essentially irrelevant to how the change affects the game, and your own conclusions of it making the tanking too difficult to do (when not alternately stating that you're going to be fully unaffected and are just concerned for other tanks... I asked you to clarify which stance was how you actually felt, but you have not yet responded to that question) are not factually accurate.

The fact of the matter is that if missing out on a handful of stamina regen ticks of 900-1450 (at most, currently landing in most builds at around 450-725 per second effectively) when tanking is going to make or break your build... you've already contradicted yourself in saying that I'm wrong, when I said the meta is to not focus on all-out tanking because it's fully unneeded with how high character power allocations from stats are in ESO, by stating in the same breath that you don't focus on tanking stats right this instant even in the first place. You already should be, and can be, getting large amounts of stamina back from the typical shards, potions, skills (depending on class such as Earthen Heart skills on the DK to simply pop Igneous for 5% of your stamina pool back each time while buffering damage intake when helpful, or Nightblades toggling on Siphoning Attacks to grab some back at will between skill use and tapping light hits in when practical), and from the occasional 1h axe full heavy attack on your sword and board bar for its low charge timer. And that just furthers the argument I posited originally: tanking is far, far too easy, and always has been in ESO between the resource management and binary threat system.

That you are saying you tank while fully ignoring these basic mechanics that any reasonable person might assume were put there to be used as part of the design rather than just for fun on a dev's day off, shows that in and of itself . If you're having problems with block cost for AOE as a tank-focused role, dump some of your weapon damage glyphs on the jewelry and put in the 200 flat cost reduction ones instead

. If you're not concerned as much with hybridizing your DPS, that shouldn't be an issue. With a base cost of 2160, simply using a sword and shield and three block cost reduction glyphs will slap your cost down to under 1000. Add in even a basic twenty point allocation of champion points to block cost reduction (8.1%) and it'll reach closer to 820-840, and by the time you can then add in the heavy armor five-piece passive if you're still having trouble getting it low enough and need the extra mitigation, another 20% there. Combined with the copious numbers of ways to regenerate stamina and simply letting go of that key occasionally for a tick, you'll be fine.

Robotmafia · July 2015

yeah this is a bad call... another pvp issue impacting pve... same with roll dodge.. ok i find perma roll dodging pvp player very annoying but in some pve fights roll dodging is very usefull and most magika players will have problems with this in pve fights

BuggeX · July 2015

Dont forget that they add 1 new Glyphe, earlyer they mentioned they think about a Glyphe for ulti cost reduction or ulti gain. So a DK with this glyphes and Bloodspawn will be able to spam Magma Shell.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2015

Tanks are already a scarcity on Console. This change is going to make finding Tanks even harder.