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Champion Points and the Future of Non-Vet PvP

  • pppontus
    pppontus
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    deleted
    Edited by pppontus on July 17, 2023 7:10AM
  • Azurulia
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    I very much agree with the OP.

    Being a new player, I had my first real taste of pvp last night. I went into the non-vet and have to say it was pretty fun, however I immediately saw the frustration a number of players were having when 2 nightblades that were paired together kept conscientiously harassing a group of 6 or 7 of us. They were very difficult for all of us to kill. It was then that I had even learnt exactly how CP worked and I thought "This is non vet, so... why do they get to use their CP from vet characters?"

    It didn't really make much sense to me. The non-vet label attracts newer players (Like myself) to hopefully hop in and not get smashed. However players having CP in there kind of defeats the purpose of having a non-vet league.

    Seems like a pretty simple solution to me. CP shouldn't be allowed in non-vet.
    Criminal Scum:
    50 Breton Templar Healer: Olivine Azshara | 42 Orc Dragonknight Tank: Olivine Claremont | 50 Kahjiit Safe Cracker: Cracks-The-Safes | 50 Kahjiit Serial Killer: Cereal-The-Killer <Current Bounty: 1,231,318 gold>

    "Whoever said crime doesn't pay clearly hasn't met Azu." -@Sloris
  • kijima
    kijima
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    Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

    ^ where is my like button?
    Edited by kijima on July 19, 2015 2:16AM
    Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...
  • Snit
    Snit
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    It seems ludicrous to implement a powerful, long-term progression system, then spend more time letting players avoid it. Instead, perhaps consider the following:
    • Implement actual diminishing returns into the CP system itself, all the way up to point 100 in a star
    • Make the first 100 points MUCH faster (point 90 is the biggest bang-for-the-buck for most builds, due to the crit passives)
    • Make points after 1,000 take more experience
    • When adjusting experience gains for non-grinding activities, display your usual guardrail-to-guardrail balancing technique. Go too far. Jack experience for everything 'normal' players do
    • Daily PvE and PvP kill quests should be worth 5x what they are now. These are not grindable by 14-hour/day players. They can only do them once, too
    • Add in a WEEKLY quest with a huge experience bonus. Again, it can't be grinded by hardcore players, so the 'floor' for casuals rises up
    • Add a CP ceiling, one that moves over time. Cap total CP at 1k for now, then move it up 50 points/ month (Marvel Heroes does something like this, and it works well)

    In short, fix the problem. Don't just add ways for players to avoid the CP system altogether.
    Snit AD Sorc
    Ratbag AD Warden Tank
    Goblins AD Stamblade

  • technohic
    technohic
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    Snit wrote: »
    It seems ludicrous to implement a powerful, long-term progression system, then spend more time letting players avoid it. Instead, perhaps consider the following:
    • Implement actual diminishing returns into the CP system itself, all the way up to point 100 in a star
    • Make the first 100 points MUCH faster (point 90 is the biggest bang-for-the-buck for most builds, due to the crit passives)
    • Make points after 1,000 take more experience
    • When adjusting experience gains for non-grinding activities, display your usual guardrail-to-guardrail balancing technique. Go too far. Jack experience for everything 'normal' players do
    • Daily PvE and PvP kill quests should be worth 5x what they are now. These are not grindable by 14-hour/day players. They can only do them once, too
    • Add in a WEEKLY quest with a huge experience bonus. Again, it can't be grinded by hardcore players, so the 'floor' for casuals rises up
    • Add a CP ceiling, one that moves over time. Cap total CP at 1k for now, then move it up 50 points/ month (Marvel Heroes does something like this, and it works well)

    In short, fix the problem. Don't just add ways for players to avoid the CP system altogether.

    Agree with this. The bypassing the system would likely just be the short term work around.
  • Valknir
    Valknir
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    CP in Blackwater Blade must be turned off to save this campaign. It wasn't so bad when the champion point system began, but as time goes on, it gets worse and worse. Veteran PvE guilds (on one faction in particular) enter Blackwater Blade on their lowbie characters, wipe the map, and make it impossible for THE OTHER TWO FACTIONS COMBINED to take keeps, win battles, recover scrolls, etc.

    Blackwater Blade used to be awesome; it didn't matter if you had a VR character, your skill (and guild coordination) alone determined how effective you were in AvA. Now, Blackwater Blade is Saltwater Blade, where everyone ragequits for the night because they can't even recover their homekeeps at 3AM, then log in during the morning to be pushed back all the way. For many of us, Champion Points are ruining the game. I only started leveling my VR character JUST to be more effective in non-vet, yet my measly 40CP cannot even hope to compete with those that have 300CP+.

    I only play this game for RP and Non-vet PvP. Thankfully, you can't take RP away, but removing CP from Blackwater Blade is something you -can- do. Fix it.
    Morgoroth gro-Urûkhash, Orc Nightblade, Ebonheart Pact
  • Vizier
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    pppontus wrote: »
    1. A No-CP campaign would by definition be the hardcore campaign. The CP campaigns is the easymode cozytime goblin grinders campaigns. So thanks for suggesting that the no-cp campaign offer greater rewards! Much helpful.

    2. Diminishing returns? LMAO. After 30ish points into any star there are 0 diminishing returns. None. Nothing. Additionally you get max stats for every point spent, you get powerful passives, etc. Having 1K CP vs. 200 is like wearing 5 additional 5-piece sets of gear. The difference is massive.

    All in all, I think you should maybe worry about understanding the system that you're arguing about.

    So folks not wanting to be in campaigns with veteran players and now no CP is hardcore? LOL Crying and whining about how unfair the system is, is hardcore mode? Guess that depends on what your definition of is is. :-) funny logic.

    I love how the most bizarrely extreme examples are given such as pointing to players with 2500 and 3000 points THAT DON'T exist! At this point nobody is sporting a point spread like that. And if you call getting .1%. That's 1/10th of 1% per Champion Point spread around over 9 categories with multiple subcategories is making the difference your're deluded. Especially at this point in the game. The more I read this the more I'm seeing folks that just want an excuse when they die. After the QQ'rs get what they want (and they probably will) it will be something else. From my perspective this crowd isn't much different than the crowd that wants to toggle PvE and PvP mode while in Cyrodiil.

    The failure on ZoS's part in all this is not getting rid of VR yet, which the CP system was designed to replace. So now there is a prohibitive grind which keeps newer players from being at least on equal level especially if they like to experiment with multiple classes and builds. And because they are not motivated to stay in middle-school they earn XP, AP and CP at reduced rates. Additionally ZoS can't really get a good look at the impact of CP until they remove VR and subsequently the uber gear differences as a result. Not only are the values of this gear much higher at the base level it's also upgraded whereas lower level players typically don't upgrade beyond green with some blue. So the differences are exacerbated even more.

    For folks to be talking about CP now when most players are probably below 500 points is a bit premature IMO. And I see no reason at this point a primary feature of the game should be removed so as to limit those that would like to use what they earned in game.
  • pppontus
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    deleted
    Edited by pppontus on July 17, 2023 7:08AM
  • OzJohnD
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    Agree, CP's should be negated in set PvP scenarios.

    There should be sub-Vet and Vet options to enter PvP without the influence of CP's.

    I know I suck at PvP but I should not have to struggle at V10+ against a lvl 15 toon who has just entered Cyrodil.
    Everyone knows the phenomenon of trying to hold your breath underwater - how at first it's alright and you can handle it, and then as it gets closer and closer to the time when you must breathe, how urgent the need becomes, the lust and the hunger to breathe. And then the panic sets in when you begin to think that you won't be able to breathe - and finally, when you take in air and the anxiety subsides...that's what it's like to be a vampire and need blood.

    Francis Ford Coppola - BS Dracula: The Film and the Legend




  • Ysne58
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    In addition to having some kind of no-cp campaign, I believe people should be allowed to start earning CP from level 1.

    I would be in favor of have 1 non-vet and 1 vet campaign set up like that. There really is a difference in CP amounts between long term players and new players. I do not believe a catch up mechanism has been introduced yet.

    I will say I prefer the one proposed by @Gidorick much more than any of the others I have seen. He can describe it better than I can; so I'm giving him a shout out.
  • Kuroinu
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    I like the Champion Point system idea, but it only seems fit for PvE. Maybe PvP should have a separate system or like the OP said none at all.
  • Gidorick
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    Thanks @Ysne58. I give a pretty detailed explanation HERE, but the core concept is that the higher the number of the highest number of CPs earned the faster those that have fewer CPs should earn them. This rate of earning should slow down as players earn more CPs and approach the highest number of CPs earned.

    @Leandor had an idea in another thread that was very similar to mine but it would create an average CP amount and players above the average would actually earn CPs more slowly than they do now. I like this idea simply because with XP pots and such the CP cap is going to be reached much more quickly than it would have been reached before. You can read that post HERE.
    Edited by Gidorick on July 20, 2015 3:39AM
    What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
    That's right... Horse.
    Click HERE to discuss.

    Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!
  • BRogueNZ
    BRogueNZ
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    +1 Insightful  +1 Agree  +1 Awesome
  • RustedValor
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    PvP doesn't need CP. The only people that want to have CP are no lifers that can grind all day and wreck everyone who has jobs and other hobbies. CP is also the reason block, dodgeroll, Bolt Escape nerfs. Nobody could spam abilities forever with infinite resources once they hit the magic numbers, nobody could block forever, nobody could dodge forever. Nobody would be getting 1 shotted in Cyrodil without the CP system combined with the removal of soft caps that let players push their damage to extreme ranges that enable 1 shotting.

    A no CP campaign would be the most popular PVP campaign by far and leave the other campaigns a dead zone for people who grind all day.
    Edited by RustedValor on July 20, 2015 4:03AM
  • OzJohnD
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    no lifers that can grind all day and wreck everyone who has jobs and other hobbies

    that's plain rude




    correct, but rude

    rude_vampire_by_bug_off.png
    Everyone knows the phenomenon of trying to hold your breath underwater - how at first it's alright and you can handle it, and then as it gets closer and closer to the time when you must breathe, how urgent the need becomes, the lust and the hunger to breathe. And then the panic sets in when you begin to think that you won't be able to breathe - and finally, when you take in air and the anxiety subsides...that's what it's like to be a vampire and need blood.

    Francis Ford Coppola - BS Dracula: The Film and the Legend




  • Valen_Byte
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    Even just this week it has gotten much worse on BWB...its dead...CP have ruined it.
    ***Dixon Kay MagDK FORMER EMPEROR***Deca Dix MagDK FORMER EMPORER***Valonious MagPlar FORMER EMPEROR***
    GM of BYTE
    MAY YOUR DEATHS BE SWIFT, AND YOUR LOAD SCREENS LONG.
    And alien tears will fill for him, Pity’s long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn
  • LegendaryMage
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    I haven't read all posts, but thanks to @RoamingRiverElk for pinging me here.

    My take on this is simple, it's like this:

    1) Non-Vet PVP shouldn't even have CPs in the first place. You want your CPs on that char? Go vet...

    2) Vet PVP absolutely needs a campaign where CPs are a) Limited, perhaps 360 or so max, and b) If not possible to limit them, disable them entirely. You'll still keep earning them as you pvp and all that, they're just either limited or disabled, whatever is possible.

    The CP system itself needs a lot of work on, the strength unbalance is too obvious. CP system is something that needs to be greatly limited anyway, 3.6K points is too much. 600 points should be absolute max in my opinion.
  • Sigtric
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    I would leave it at non-Vet Campaigns. On Vet Campaigns it sort of sends the wrong message if you disable them. If you have to disable your progression system on normal campaigns, your progression system has a problem not the campaigns. If you feel that it needs to be disabled on normal campaigns, fix progression system not the campaign.


    That's part of the greater issue. The CP system IS the problem that needs fixing. The problems in BWB are only a symptom of the infection.

    Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
    Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |

    Show Me Your Dunmer
    [/center]
  • bowmanz607
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    I dont think disabling CP in one vet campaign shows a problem with the progression system. (although i do believe that grinding is a problem, but to each their own i guess). I think by disabling them in one campaign shows that this game has a huge waive of new players that may never catch up to those of us who have been around for awhile. As it stands right now i know of at least 3 guilds in non-vet that do not plan on leaving non-vet. The problem is that a person that pvps a lot is not able to be effective in vet campaigns right now b/c of all the champion points. even at v14. You get roughly what 2.5-3.5 champion points per vet level. That is hardly enough to be viable by the time you reach v14. not to mention the amount of time it takes a casual player to do so or even one that does not like to grind such as myself. Many new players are never going to be able to catch up with the veterans. there will always be a large gap. This is a causing a problem like we see with the questing and leveling once players hit veteran rank. that is to say that the experience that one has in a vet campaign is very much departed form the experience that one has in a non-vet campaign. Many players will stay in the vet campaigns. Providing a vet with no cp gives the hugs wave of new players that came to this game a platform to continue progressing their players rather than a feeling of complete uselessness forcing them back into non-vet. Right now the game has two tiers of players with no middle ground. A vet campaign with no cp will close that gap by providing a third, middle tier, of players.
  • HeroOfNone
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    Talked a little bit on previous streams and twitter but:

    The champion point issue is pretty rampant and requires a lot of grinding to stay on par with other players. This issue is shown constantly in trials and PVP, where folks don't have to worry about weaknesses, resource management, or an thing else. We want to continue to get stronger, but it's leaving a large gap between casual & new players and the veteran grinders.


    Rather than remove anything, let's limit things in competition events like trials and PVP. Maybe even in dungeons.
    - Allow only 1 major constellation active at a time and maybe 2 to 4 minor constellations.
    - A major constellation will allow all passives to be used and up to 150 points in a tree
    - A minor constellation will allow up to 30 (maybe 75) in a constellation along with the passives
    - non veteran campaigns would allow only minor, no major
    - your major and minor constellations can be switched without cost like your skills and armor
    - when outside of competition events, your full CP will count, letting you level, craft, steal, etc. faster than others.

    This would make the CP system more about versitility than simply ignoring resource management, and would make people think about HOW they want to spend their points. But it still would let you feel like a god when leveling in PVE. If enough high levels want, there could also be campaigns for 1k+ CP unlocks.
    Herfi Driderkitty of the Aldmeri Dominion
    Find me on : Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Reddit
  • Sigtric
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    I spent 14 + hours in BWB over the weekend and I can really see this problem has no where to go but towards being worse unless something is done about it.

    Multiple times we encountered a handful of players that could be attacked by my group of 5 or more, plus other friendlies in the vicinity and it would take minutes to take down that single target.

    I can't point to it being a level difference, as other 40+ and even a VR1 in the Non-vet went down much quicker. All I can point to is CPs= Nothing else can really lead to the near endless resource regens AND mitigation combined.

    1 group of people who have been playing for months, and have been working together for a while now, who are not inexperienced when it comes to Cyrodiil shouldn't have this sort of problem fighting a SINGLE player.


    I wont link it here because of NSFW language, but you can check my most recent twitch highlight (if you care to see)from over this past weekend for an example. I'll be working on highlighting more instances of this but it is a chore sifting through 13 some hours of video.

    Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
    Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |

    Show Me Your Dunmer
    [/center]
  • Rhakon
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    Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

    please release this asap! :)
  • Tolmos
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    Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

    I would be all over this in a heartbeat. But you would probably need more than one, because I could definitely see that thing getting population capped fast lol

    Amazing suggestion. Thank you for that.
  • QuebraRegra
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    Valknir wrote: »
    CP in Blackwater Blade must be turned off to save this campaign. It wasn't so bad when the champion point system began, but as time goes on, it gets worse and worse. Veteran PvE guilds (on one faction in particular) enter Blackwater Blade on their lowbie characters, wipe the map, and make it impossible for THE OTHER TWO FACTIONS COMBINED to take keeps, win battles, recover scrolls, etc.

    Blackwater Blade used to be awesome; it didn't matter if you had a VR character, your skill (and guild coordination) alone determined how effective you were in AvA. Now, Blackwater Blade is Saltwater Blade, where everyone ragequits for the night because they can't even recover their homekeeps at 3AM, then log in during the morning to be pushed back all the way. For many of us, Champion Points are ruining the game. I only started leveling my VR character JUST to be more effective in non-vet, yet my measly 40CP cannot even hope to compete with those that have 300CP+.

    I only play this game for RP and Non-vet PvP. Thankfully, you can't take RP away, but removing CP from Blackwater Blade is something you -can- do. Fix it.

    Is this really happening in BW? I've been spending a lot of time in there (too much maybe), and I haven't really noticed any invincibles. I actually think it would be more imbalanced if the players had more of the passives from SUPPORT and ASSAULT.

    Then again I'm DC on XBOX NA, so maybe it's not an issue there yet? Allow me to explain the imbalance I have seen that occurs nightly after 11:30PM EST.... All the Euros jump on after the Yanks have gone to bed, and dominate/zerg the whole map. I've taken the time to check some of the game tags when the afterhours numbers for certain factions skyrocket (looking at you AD!), and I see Britian, France, Spain, etc.... this is on the NA server. Now there's nothing "illegal" here, and I can almost salute the tactic. What I can't understand is the advantage? Do CP points span the EU and NA servers?

  • spoqster
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    Thanks @pppontus for stopping some of the more misleading arguments with the right answers. I think pretty much everything has been said at this point, but I would like to add two more thoughts that occurred to me after reading the posts by @Vizier.

    He has been voicing the opinions of the more conservative "RPGs have grind, deal with it" faction. I've already commented that I believe these pre-conceived notions are out-dated, so I don't have to elaborate on that again. Shooters and sports games are adopting many RPG elements as well. The game industry is evolving away from strict genres, and towards creating the best possible games - no matter in which genre individual elements originated.

    About the "deal with it" part, it should be mentioned that this is not a purely game-focused discussion any longer. I personally, and I suppose there are many players like me, don't have a problem with the Champion System. I play as long as I enjoy the game. When I don't have fun any longer, I leave the game. No problem there. I like this game too much, to see it fall victim to bad mechanics. And the devs should be happy that we worry.

    Frustration Levels
    So, about the hypothesis that people complain in this thread because they got beat, and they should "suck it up". Let's assume for a second that is the case. I noticed something in everyone I every watched play video games and in myself as well: The degree of frustration resulting from defeat, is strongly correlated with the perceived fairness of the scenario. That means the more fair a game scenario is perceived, the less frustrated the player will be and vice versa.

    Two examples:
    • Hearthstone - If you lose with your basic deck to another basic deck, your reaction will likely be: "I got beat, I need to learn this better, let's try this again." If you lose to a deck that has 5 legendary minions while you have none, then the frustration will be much higher and the probabilty that the player will quit the game is much higher. And that's something the developers don't want.
    • Fifa - Fifa also has an RPG element when you play the Ultimate Team mode, because you build and improve your team over time - the equivalent of improving your character. If you built a good team but without superstar players, and you lose to a similar team, then you're much more likely to accept the defeat and try to learn from it, than if you lose a game in which Messi scores 5 goals against you. It's the exact same mechanic as above. (@ZOS_BrianWheeler, if you guys haven't already checked out Fifa's progression curve, please do so. It's shaped like an inverted hockey stick. It gets players to competition level within days and then switches to an open-ended very, very slow progression. It works really well.)

    The problem with the Champion System is that by it's non-catchup nature, it gives players something to get mad about. And that's what a game developer should avoid.

    Game developers need to find that sweet spot, where give players the chance to earn power increases, but to not make them so strong that everyone else will rage-quit. In Fifa, for example, Messi and Christiano Ronaldo, are 5% better in most attributes than the next best player, maybe 10% better than the normal players get after a few days. And that's enough, because for good players these 5-10% are quite enough to make a difference.

    Too Much Vertical Progression
    One problem with ESO PvP is that there are too many vertical progression systems that are stackable, and most of them are time-based. Now each single one is not terrible (apart from being vertical in the first place), but together they offer too much power increase.

    Let's look at the time based ones first:
    • First there are the Veteran Ranks, which take time to get.
    • Then there are the endgame gear sets you can buy by paying AP, which takes time to get.
    • Then there are some skills which are just more powerful than others (Proximity Detonation, Vigor, Barrier).
    • And now there is the Champion System with it's open-ended, non-catchup mechanic.
    All these power buffs take a long time to get, which means newer players have none of them and older players have them all. The gap is huge. If you mix in the "good" (as in more horizontal) progression mechanics such as
    • Map/Scroll based campaign buffs.
    • Using the right skill synergies.
    and add the better player skill of experienced and talented players, the gap becomes an insurmountable chasm. And identifying this chasm leads to frustration, and eventually casual players will leave the game.

    If I play Fifa once a week and I play against someone who plays it for 8 hours every, that player is going to give me a good beating, but AT LEAST he will be doing it with a team that is roughly equivalent to mine, and just has a few players who are 5-10% better than mine - not with a team where every player is X times as good as mine.

    So @Vizier, this whole debate is not about anyone who complains about being beaten in PvP. Those players suck it up or leave the game. This thread is more about answering the (albeit slightly academic) question of "how to build the best possible game on top of the ESO franchise", and offering concrete suggestions for improvement.



    Edited by spoqster on July 20, 2015 10:49PM
  • Tolmos
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    spoqster wrote: »

    Stuff stuff stuff

    Probably one of the most articulate and well formulated posts I've seen on this forum to date. Thank you for that. :)

    Excellent points, also!
  • Vizier
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    pppontus wrote: »
    Vizier wrote: »
    pppontus wrote: »
    1. A No-CP campaign would by definition be the hardcore campaign. The CP campaigns is the easymode cozytime goblin grinders campaigns. So thanks for suggesting that the no-cp campaign offer greater rewards! Much helpful.

    2. Diminishing returns? LMAO. After 30ish points into any star there are 0 diminishing returns. None. Nothing. Additionally you get max stats for every point spent, you get powerful passives, etc. Having 1K CP vs. 200 is like wearing 5 additional 5-piece sets of gear. The difference is massive.

    All in all, I think you should maybe worry about understanding the system that you're arguing about.

    So folks not wanting to be in campaigns with veteran players and now no CP is hardcore? LOL Crying and whining about how unfair the system is, is hardcore mode? Guess that depends on what your definition of is is. :-) funny logic.

    I love how the most bizarrely extreme examples are given such as pointing to players with 2500 and 3000 points THAT DON'T exist! At this point nobody is sporting a point spread like that. And if you call getting .1%. That's 1/10th of 1% per Champion Point spread around over 9 categories with multiple subcategories is making the difference your're deluded. Especially at this point in the game. The more I read this the more I'm seeing folks that just want an excuse when they die. After the QQ'rs get what they want (and they probably will) it will be something else. From my perspective this crowd isn't much different than the crowd that wants to toggle PvE and PvP mode while in Cyrodiil.

    The failure on ZoS's part in all this is not getting rid of VR yet, which the CP system was designed to replace. So now there is a prohibitive grind which keeps newer players from being at least on equal level especially if they like to experiment with multiple classes and builds. And because they are not motivated to stay in middle-school they earn XP, AP and CP at reduced rates. Additionally ZoS can't really get a good look at the impact of CP until they remove VR and subsequently the uber gear differences as a result. Not only are the values of this gear much higher at the base level it's also upgraded whereas lower level players typically don't upgrade beyond green with some blue. So the differences are exacerbated even more.

    For folks to be talking about CP now when most players are probably below 500 points is a bit premature IMO. And I see no reason at this point a primary feature of the game should be removed so as to limit those that would like to use what they earned in game.

    Obviously it's harder to play without CP = hardcore. Sorry, you lost this argument already.

    600 champion points would for example give you:
    -10% magicka costs
    -10% stamina costs
    +15% magicka recovery
    +15% stamina recovery
    +25% elemental damage
    +25% magic/poison damage
    -15% elemental damage taken
    -15% magic/poison damage taken
    +10% healing received
    +15% spell resistance

    And this doesn't include passives like doubling your ultimate regen at low health, setting enemies off balance when roll dodging, etc etc.

    Now you tell me;

    1. How is it more hardcore to have these perks than not have them?
    2. How is this not unbalanced when 600 CP is a fairly reasonable number that a large amount of the grinders will have achieved long before IC is released, not to mention that people already have beyond this?
    3. Also.. what gear sets can give me these bonuses? I really, really want to know because then I don't have to care about CP. As long as you just point me in the general direction of the set combinations! :)

    Give us one campaign with no CP, then we'll see.. when there's 1000+ people in queue for that campaign maybe ZOS will realise that everyone hates their *** """progression""" system.

    It's more hardcore because I only have 179 points. And it's...a little harder to play vs folks with more CP..shrug. It's also harder to play against people with more experience and that are higher level etc. It's a challenge. Additionally the population will be increasing in average CP daily so play will be more dangerous. The cool thing is as I play I'll be getting more points so the advantages stacked against me will diminish and I for having been pushed will be a better player for meeting the challenge.

    The funny thing about your argument is the assumption of victim-hood by those with less CP. And typically "hardcore" refers to gameplay that is less forgiving. You know. BwB right now is pretty forgiving PvP with everyone running around with 30k HP and battle leveled to what, V12? It's a little more warm and fuzzy with a rainbow in it's tummy. .. Hardcore..pfft. The very reason everyone is WTF QQ is because they "feeeeealll" like CP is making them more vulnerable. And your acting like only a handful of people have CP as if the vast majority don't and they are just prey. LOL . Honestly these "predators" are at least as likely as not just better players. You guys can act like victims if you want to but. I'm thinking the glass is half full. Not half empty.

    I knew going into this game that those that played more, such as those that played all through beta would be better than I. And I knew that should I play I'd get better and my characters will progress. That's is the nature of Roleplay games. If I wanted arena style twitch combat (which I like very much) I'd have made a different choice in how to spend my time. I didn't come into this game demanding a ton of accommodations being made for me and voicing a bunch of excuses as to why I'm dying. (Well, perhaps I cried about broken Cloak a bit. I then adapted my play and found how to at least use it as a positive by not utterly relying on it, but rather letting it augment my build..that's a different story though) Point is...

    Does the community QQ much? ... Ya. I think it does.
    Edited by Vizier on July 21, 2015 5:04AM
  • Woman
    Woman
    ✭✭✭
    @Vizier To be honest, I think both you and the people you're arguing with are kind of missing the point. This thread wasn't about unbalance in the champion point system- in fact if the champion point was perfectly balanced for vets and it was free of issues- I'd still have the same thesis that I originally wrote about. It doesn't really matter what philosophy one has about game progression. There is a simple issue here, the CP system was intended to replace the Vet system and thus should not be allowed in Non-Vet PvP which was specifically designed to not allow vet players to have an advantage.

    I understand that people are frustrated with the entire CP system but we all know that changing the system is a lot more complicated than just fixing one simple problem with and easy solution. This conversation has been derailed and it's slightly frustrating because I thought this issue was one both the pro CP and anti CP could agree on.
  • Vizier
    Vizier
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Woman Honestly you and I aren't that far apart here. I understand the appeal for the pre-vet campaign. I pal around there with a couple of my lowbie toons there too. It's a change of pace and it's nice.

    What gets me most about this thread is the notion that CP is the new boogie man of ESO, when, as you point out, it's intended to replace the vet system. From what I've seen the folks supporting No CP for BwB aren't content there. They want Veteran campaigns with no CP too. They want all around battle leveling in veteran campaigns and some even speaking of pealing off skills to bring them down to levels less powerful toons would be buffed to. This is all symptomatic of a greater problem. The point is it just doesn't stop there.

    There are guys playing right now with far less time but with more CP than I (that's ok)or in possession of a significant percentage of the CP I have. To me that indicates the ease in which CP is obtained and the difference between my 180 points and someones 100 points or their 300 points just doesn't seem that significant to me to warrant the boogie-man status the CP system is obtaining. In BwB I kill plenty and I'm killed often enough and not once did I think to myself "oh that guy has a ton of CP." Rather they were higher level with more skills unlocked and leveled etc.. Or in the moment the were just better or got the drop on me...shrug. People gonna complain and not look in the mirror and CP is, IMO those level 40 n up in BwB seem to have a more significant advantage. It's why there are some that do all they can to stay in BwB while in that leveled "sweet spot," but people gonna complain.

    If, in the end, we were looking at a BwB only experience with no CP, I might roll my eyes, but I'd play it with my friends and shrug on, but you and I both know it won't stop there, so I just don't support any of it until we see champion points without veteran levels and gear.
    Edited by Vizier on July 21, 2015 5:44PM
  • Evilways
    Evilways
    Easy fix. Allow a Certain Max number of CP in Pvp and stop trying to WoW out and balance PvP and *** up PVE.

    Next issue.
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