PvE Tanking Future. - DO NOT GET RID OF STAM REGEN WHILE BLOCKING IN PVE

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

SickDuck wrote: »

Perma blocking is an issue in PvE too. It makes the game much easier because of the massive damage reduction. Not to mention mobs having useless spec attacks being ignored by blocking easily. You even get ultimate while blocking without the need to break it and waste time LA/HA (... and not all skills can be weaved). ZOS cannot simply fix this by raising overall damage of mobs/bosses as it would be a half-baked solution. Some builds cannot use permablocking so this change evens out the field and helps build diversity.

And how are you going to call solution where ZOS stubbornly puts into PTS 0 stamina regen, players still say its stupid idea, and ZOS decides that in order to pull this stupid nerf stunt they are going to..... simply lowering overall damage of mobs/bosses.

Because thats what i imagine is probably going to happen when we will follow genious ideas to "just wait for PTS to see how it really looks".

Wont that be a..... half baked solution too?

"Some builds cannot use permablocking so this change evens out the field and helps build diversity. "

The glorious way of thinking "I cant use it so im gonna make it removed so Noone can use it! I cant have it so lets make it taken away from those who have it".

Rest of post is basically stating the obvious, blocking with shield does its role. A shield is supposed to block, yet complainers claim that its unfair.... that shield blocks! LOL

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Can we just get on with suggestions on possible solutions with regards to this issue?

We still haven't determined whether this even is an issue.

I mean, how could we. We know maybe a friction of all the changes and not one of us has tested any of these in PTS, seen how they play in conjunction with all the other changes.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

With conjunction with all the other changes? PVPers must have whine really hard that ZOS will prepare a whole set of other changes just to accommodate for reducing stamina regen to 0.

Guess what, if ZOS drops this stupid idea, born on false accusations of tanks being OP and presumption that there is no game beside PVP so any whine of PVPers must be meet no matter what consequences it will have in PvE there will be no need for "All the other changes" released in conjunction that are meant to soften the BLOW of nerfing stam regen. All the other changes that have potential to break more things, including possible "Nerfing overall damage of all mobs and bosses" that will.... guess what, reduce the difficulty of content?

What kind of logic it is?
Forcing useless and unneeded change into our throats and then stuffing it into ton of other changes just to make it taste nice, while simply dropping stupid idea would save all the trouble and would let them focus on something more useful and beneficial.

DDuke · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Can we just get on with suggestions on possible solutions with regards to this issue?

We still haven't determined whether this even is an issue.

I mean, how could we. We know maybe a friction of all the changes and not one of us has tested any of these in PTS, seen how they play in conjunction with all the other changes.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

With conjunction with all the other changes? PVPers must have whine really hard that ZOS will prepare a whole set of other changes just to accommodate for reducing stamina regen to 0.

Guess what, if ZOS drops this stupid idea, born on false accusations of tanks being OP and presumption that there is no game beside PVP so any whine of PVPers must be meet no matter what consequences it will have in PvE there will be no need for "All the other changes" released in conjunction that are meant to soften the BLOW of nerfing stam regen. All the other changes that have potential to break more things, including possible "Nerfing overall damage of all mobs and bosses" that will.... guess what, reduce the difficulty of content?

What kind of logic it is?
Forcing useless and unneeded change into our throats and then stuffing it into ton of other changes just to make it taste nice, while simply dropping stupid idea would save all the trouble and would let them focus on something more useful and beneficial.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Are you saying they shouldn't make any changes to the game, that it is perfect as it is?

For someone who's been playing the game for barely two months, you sure have a lot to say (little sense, unfortunately).

My suggestion: instead of QQing on the forums (no one cares), go experience the game some more, you'll find out that these changes are not useless nor unneeded.

delphwind_ESO · July 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

you will have to block whens needed and not just sit there doing perma block

Then you pretty much die in Trials / VDSA, anything that power attacks you is a one shot. Have you not done any end game pve?

They said WHEN NEEDED ... how did you miss that?

Vizier · July 2015

If they are going to do this they need to have no magicka regeneration while blocking. This way magicka builds don't have an inherent advantage of stamina builds that use stamina for everything.

Better to just leave regen alone.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Can we just get on with suggestions on possible solutions with regards to this issue?

We still haven't determined whether this even is an issue.

I mean, how could we. We know maybe a friction of all the changes and not one of us has tested any of these in PTS, seen how they play in conjunction with all the other changes.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

With conjunction with all the other changes? PVPers must have whine really hard that ZOS will prepare a whole set of other changes just to accommodate for reducing stamina regen to 0.

Guess what, if ZOS drops this stupid idea, born on false accusations of tanks being OP and presumption that there is no game beside PVP so any whine of PVPers must be meet no matter what consequences it will have in PvE there will be no need for "All the other changes" released in conjunction that are meant to soften the BLOW of nerfing stam regen. All the other changes that have potential to break more things, including possible "Nerfing overall damage of all mobs and bosses" that will.... guess what, reduce the difficulty of content?

What kind of logic it is?
Forcing useless and unneeded change into our throats and then stuffing it into ton of other changes just to make it taste nice, while simply dropping stupid idea would save all the trouble and would let them focus on something more useful and beneficial.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Are you saying they shouldn't make any changes to the game, that it is perfect as it is?

For someone who's been playing the game for barely two months, you sure have a lot to say (little sense, unfortunately).

My suggestion: instead of QQing on the forums (no one cares), go experience the game some more, you'll find out that these changes are not useless nor unneeded.

Said PVP dps trying to convince us that they are hurting tanks for their own good.

http://i.imgur.com/u8mRdJn.png

And its not about "making any changes". Its about this one particular change that is aimed to cripple PvE tanks all over Tamriel and with ricochet either directly or by half-baked fixes will damage other parts of game and mechanics.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Vizier wrote: »

If they are going to do this they need to have no magicka regeneration while blocking. This way magicka builds don't have an inherent advantage of stamina builds that use stamina for everything.

Better to just leave regen alone.

what stamina build abilities get block cast?

Halke · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

If they are going to do this they need to have no magicka regeneration while blocking. This way magicka builds don't have an inherent advantage of stamina builds that use stamina for everything.

Better to just leave regen alone.

what stamina build abilities get block cast?

^^^ This, so much this. Block casting saves me so much as a squishy healer, but I have like negative stam regen because I shouldn't be having to do it for very long. Tanks are -made- to block and take hits. I have ate so many novas on the last stage of vDSA because I took one too many hits and didn't have stamina to get out in time. I weep to consider that my tanks may have the same issue now. Maybe the will buff master resto and I can at least help them out some >.<

Soriana · July 2015

18 pages with no replies from ZOS tells me this is going through no matter what. A couple of points to ponder now that we are all speculating:

1. The remarks about nerfing overall damage by bosses and mobs makes me wonder if that is the real reason why they are lowering the XP amounts required for Vet levels.

2. Stamina is needed by pure tanks, no question about it, and nerfing stamina regen is just plain puzzling. Would DPS be a little more understanding of our concerns if there was an announcement made that magicka regen would stop once you reach 10k sustained DPS? Or magicka regen stops once a healer heals 3 people at one time?

I agree that we will need to test this out to see if Chicken Little is right or not. But standing back looking from the outside in never having stood toe to toe with the mage managing 4 axes at once? Please do not try to tell me how much easier my job is going to be by not having my stamina regen and that I just need to L2P.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

The only people in this thread saying it is a good change are the pvp players that play dps. Basically they want to be able to kill everyone easy. They run into tanks that can counter the huge damage they do by blocking so they must destroy blocking because their instant kill everyone builds has a counter that can stop them and they are too dumb to run away from a heavy defense build tank.

This is about pve not pvp. Anyone that thinks a tank just taunts and blocks doing nothing else in pvp has only seen terrible tanks. Even now before they remove stam regen it is hard to manage stamina. A tanks role in a group is to protect other players. Not just to pick one mob hit it with a wet noodle and wait for the rest of the group to manage everything else. And this seems to be what some people are saying is needed. People have even said that tanks shouldnt do anything but that. Stand there and take hits from one mob. Not multiple mobs just one. And not have any stamina to do anything else...

If this change goes live tanks will be forced into very specific builds their damage and defense will take a serious nerf. Damage because they wont have the stamina for attacks they will need block cost reduction glyphs so no magicka cost reduction or stam cost reduction stuff. So attacks will cost a ton. Stam will hardly ever regen since it comes in ticks every couple seconds and throw up a block in that time and stam will stop regening for a few seconds.

So yes the only people supporting this change are bad pvpers that cant figure out how to deal with tanks and it bothers them so much they want to see the whole tank role destroyed in pve as well as pvp.

Being able to do far less as a tank less attacks less defense less agro management isnt making the class more interesting at all. It is nothing but a nerf. A nerf to the least played role in the game. How is this a good idea?

SickDuck · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

So yes the only people supporting this change are bad pvpers that cant figure out how to deal with tanks and it bothers them so much they want to see the whole tank role destroyed in pve as well as pvp.

I've 5 v14 toons, playing all kinda roles including tanking. My highest PvP rank is 8, the second highest is 4 (that's out of 50, b efore someone wonders I'm talking about the skill line). I think this change is great and exiting for PvE and gives some challenge to all players - not just tanks in particular.

I couldn't care less for PvPers and had enough of their QQ many times before... but just because you don't like this particular change (which you haven't even seen in action) you can't blame it all on PvPers.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · July 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Also:

"http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/07/06/battlemasters-corner--the-unstoppable-juggernaut"

ESO client news "4 hours ago". Is ZOS mocking us?

•Health: 23,489
•Magicka: 12,801
•Stamina: 17,567
•Health Regen: 812
•Magicka Regen: 536
•Stamina Regen: 591

and this should outstand 1vx? i would crush this DK in seconds lol

"If played correctly, this build should not have Magicka-sustain issues in 1v1s or even 1v2s."

and i Play mag dk btw

Indeed I read it few times, and makes no sense. I believe he missed to add 1000 on the regens.

Because my Khajiit DK, at level 35, almost has those values with barely any good gear. (green crafted set armour)
There must be something wrong.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

My suggestion: instead of QQing on the forums (no one cares), go experience the game some more, you'll find out that these changes are not useless nor unneeded.

Amen.

Perma blocking & perma dodging players (yes you can do both at the same time) has become ridiculous.
One side the glass cannons one shooting everyone. And when they cannot do that, they roll dodge until they get out of the map

This game needs some serious balancing. I am up for cutting down the damage output by 80%. And cripple the Bolt to stop the others crying of lack of escape. (since the perma roll dodge not used any more)
Nerf the talons also in the process.

The Cyrodiil fragfest has run it's course. Or else the game going to die horribly and very soon.

Already almost none I know of goes to Cyrodiil with all this stupidity nowadays.
And we are talking about 3 guilds with 200-350 active players each. Where we one of them used to make 100 man groups daily (not zerg, we run skirmishes with multiple grps)

They are all fed up, some of which bugger off already to GW2.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Soriana wrote: »

18 pages with no replies from ZOS tells me this is going through no matter what. A couple of points to ponder now that we are all speculating:

1. The remarks about nerfing overall damage by bosses and mobs makes me wonder if that is the real reason why they are lowering the XP amounts required for Vet levels.

Hey Soriana, can you please explain that point some more? What is interlinked with making the game easier and lowering vet xp?

Can you also direct me to the discussion about nerfing bosses please? Is that talk in the same ESO Live as Eric's comments on tanking?

Thank you.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

This is about pve not pvp. Anyone that thinks a tank just taunts and blocks doing nothing else in pvp has only seen terrible tanks. Even now before they remove stam regen it is hard to manage stamina. A tanks role in a group is to protect other players. Not just to pick one mob hit it with a wet noodle and wait for the rest of the group to manage everything else. And this seems to be what some people are saying is needed. People have even said that tanks shouldnt do anything but that. Stand there and take hits from one mob. Not multiple mobs just one. And not have any stamina to do anything else...

If this change goes live tanks will be forced into very specific builds their damage and defense will take a serious nerf. Damage because they wont have the stamina for attacks they will need block cost reduction glyphs so no magicka cost reduction or stam cost reduction stuff. So attacks will cost a ton. Stam will hardly ever regen since it comes in ticks every couple seconds and throw up a block in that time and stam will stop regening for a few seconds.

Being able to do far less as a tank less attacks less defense less agro management isnt making the class more interesting at all. It is nothing but a nerf. A nerf to the least played role in the game. How is this a good idea?

What is interesting is that it is supposedly a change to prevent tanking from being uninteractive and boring.

"I'm from ZOS and I'm here to help"

patrykplawskib16_ESO · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?

The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

Dude you never played PvE with all this garbage your saying, certain raids like SO in order to be even completed is needed 2 tanks and a off spec tank and guess what the manticore does not hit like you it hits like the rock 18k damage per swing and that's regular attacks than you have the serpent where you need a off spec tank who cant even tank that much cause there stam is not optimized for it. How are they suppose to tank ? how are you suppose to tank 4 axes in AA and do HM they all do consecutive swings and power attacks ?!?!?!! how do you do HRC HM its all impossible without stam regen. Also there is no god dam MMO who has no regen when tanking. Another thing is I don't care if pvp is unfair why don't they just do a separate patch ?? All you fuqing pvp'ers are a bunch of cry baby self absorbed, ignorant ***. It's called Git Good. And there is no such thing as perma block you just suck at fighting with someone with a shield. It's so easy to kill them once there gaurd is let down thats when you strike its not hard and I a pve'er and I know this.

First of all, SO does not need two tanks (unless you suck and can't kill Manti fast enough).

Second of all, stop saying things like "impossible to do". You haven't even tested the new changes, and you're claiming things will be "impossible"?

Lastly, you can stop with the "go back to pvp" & "dude you never played PvE".

I've most likely spent more time in Trials alone than you've spent in game. I am in the guild with top 2-3 scores in every trial in game and have completed absolutely everything more times than I can count.

That's why you only have 1 vr14 character ? and yes you don't need 2 tanks but what about the beginners ? and by the way ive played since alpha so stfu with your ive player longer *** cause than you would be on our side defending regen when tanking.

DDuke · July 2015

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?

The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

Dude you never played PvE with all this garbage your saying, certain raids like SO in order to be even completed is needed 2 tanks and a off spec tank and guess what the manticore does not hit like you it hits like the rock 18k damage per swing and that's regular attacks than you have the serpent where you need a off spec tank who cant even tank that much cause there stam is not optimized for it. How are they suppose to tank ? how are you suppose to tank 4 axes in AA and do HM they all do consecutive swings and power attacks ?!?!?!! how do you do HRC HM its all impossible without stam regen. Also there is no god dam MMO who has no regen when tanking. Another thing is I don't care if pvp is unfair why don't they just do a separate patch ?? All you fuqing pvp'ers are a bunch of cry baby self absorbed, ignorant ***. It's called Git Good. And there is no such thing as perma block you just suck at fighting with someone with a shield. It's so easy to kill them once there gaurd is let down thats when you strike its not hard and I a pve'er and I know this.

First of all, SO does not need two tanks (unless you suck and can't kill Manti fast enough).

Second of all, stop saying things like "impossible to do". You haven't even tested the new changes, and you're claiming things will be "impossible"?

Lastly, you can stop with the "go back to pvp" & "dude you never played PvE".

I've most likely spent more time in Trials alone than you've spent in game. I am in the guild with top 2-3 scores in every trial in game and have completed absolutely everything more times than I can count.

That's why you only have 1 vr14 character ? and yes you don't need 2 tanks but what about the beginners ? and by the way ive played since alpha so stfu with your ive player longer *** cause than you would be on our side defending regen when tanking.

Yes, I have only one VR14 character with 367 CPs & 14250 Achievement Points, not sure what it has to do with anything.

I also have a VR8 Sorcerer, VR7 Dragonknight and a VR2 Templar which I'm leveling the "old fashioned" way to VR14
(OCPD->must get every skill point and do all quests).

That said, during this game's life span, the VR14 character I have has witnessed 5 top raiding guilds die due to unsatisfying high end PvE content.

I don't care if you're played since alpha or not, I care about facts.
And fact is that "taunt everything & AoE" is not satisfying PvE content, and you've got to set limits to what certain roles can do in order not to undermine the other ones.

When tanks start wearing DPS gear and healing group mates because their right mouse button is so powerful, something is wrong.

When all you've got to do is blob up & spam your AoE while tank handles everything, something is wrong.

So no, I don't see why I would be defending the current snoozefest that is infinite resources.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?

The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

Dude you never played PvE with all this garbage your saying, certain raids like SO in order to be even completed is needed 2 tanks and a off spec tank and guess what the manticore does not hit like you it hits like the rock 18k damage per swing and that's regular attacks than you have the serpent where you need a off spec tank who cant even tank that much cause there stam is not optimized for it. How are they suppose to tank ? how are you suppose to tank 4 axes in AA and do HM they all do consecutive swings and power attacks ?!?!?!! how do you do HRC HM its all impossible without stam regen. Also there is no god dam MMO who has no regen when tanking. Another thing is I don't care if pvp is unfair why don't they just do a separate patch ?? All you fuqing pvp'ers are a bunch of cry baby self absorbed, ignorant ***. It's called Git Good. And there is no such thing as perma block you just suck at fighting with someone with a shield. It's so easy to kill them once there gaurd is let down thats when you strike its not hard and I a pve'er and I know this.

First of all, SO does not need two tanks (unless you suck and can't kill Manti fast enough).

Second of all, stop saying things like "impossible to do". You haven't even tested the new changes, and you're claiming things will be "impossible"?

Lastly, you can stop with the "go back to pvp" & "dude you never played PvE".

I've most likely spent more time in Trials alone than you've spent in game. I am in the guild with top 2-3 scores in every trial in game and have completed absolutely everything more times than I can count.

That's why you only have 1 vr14 character ? and yes you don't need 2 tanks but what about the beginners ? and by the way ive played since alpha so stfu with your ive player longer *** cause than you would be on our side defending regen when tanking.

Yes, I have only one VR14 character with 367 CPs & 14250 Achievement Points, not sure what it has to do with anything.

I also have a VR8 Sorcerer, VR7 Dragonknight and a VR2 Templar which I'm leveling the "old fashioned" way to VR14
(OCPD->must get every skill point and do all quests).

That said, during this game's life span, the VR14 character I have has witnessed 5 top raiding guilds die due to unsatisfying high end PvE content.

I don't care if you're played since alpha or not, I care about facts.
And fact is that "taunt everything & AoE" is not satisfying PvE content, and you've got to set limits to what certain roles can do in order not to undermine the other ones.

When tanks start wearing DPS gear and healing group mates because their right mouse button is so powerful, something is wrong.

When all you've got to do is blob up & spam your AoE while tank handles everything, something is wrong.

So no, I don't see why I would be defending the current snoozefest that is infinite resources.

With this logic then healers should get punished when they do damage because they shouldnt be able to do anything other then heal. And clearly DPS should suffer when they defend against damage because they shouldnt do anything other then do damage.

Those raid guilds that died didnt die because the content was too easy. Its because their wasnt anywhere near enough of it so they just did the same few things over and over.

DDuke · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?

The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

Dude you never played PvE with all this garbage your saying, certain raids like SO in order to be even completed is needed 2 tanks and a off spec tank and guess what the manticore does not hit like you it hits like the rock 18k damage per swing and that's regular attacks than you have the serpent where you need a off spec tank who cant even tank that much cause there stam is not optimized for it. How are they suppose to tank ? how are you suppose to tank 4 axes in AA and do HM they all do consecutive swings and power attacks ?!?!?!! how do you do HRC HM its all impossible without stam regen. Also there is no god dam MMO who has no regen when tanking. Another thing is I don't care if pvp is unfair why don't they just do a separate patch ?? All you fuqing pvp'ers are a bunch of cry baby self absorbed, ignorant ***. It's called Git Good. And there is no such thing as perma block you just suck at fighting with someone with a shield. It's so easy to kill them once there gaurd is let down thats when you strike its not hard and I a pve'er and I know this.

First of all, SO does not need two tanks (unless you suck and can't kill Manti fast enough).

Second of all, stop saying things like "impossible to do". You haven't even tested the new changes, and you're claiming things will be "impossible"?

Lastly, you can stop with the "go back to pvp" & "dude you never played PvE".

I've most likely spent more time in Trials alone than you've spent in game. I am in the guild with top 2-3 scores in every trial in game and have completed absolutely everything more times than I can count.

That's why you only have 1 vr14 character ? and yes you don't need 2 tanks but what about the beginners ? and by the way ive played since alpha so stfu with your ive player longer *** cause than you would be on our side defending regen when tanking.

Yes, I have only one VR14 character with 367 CPs & 14250 Achievement Points, not sure what it has to do with anything.

I also have a VR8 Sorcerer, VR7 Dragonknight and a VR2 Templar which I'm leveling the "old fashioned" way to VR14
(OCPD->must get every skill point and do all quests).

That said, during this game's life span, the VR14 character I have has witnessed 5 top raiding guilds die due to unsatisfying high end PvE content.

I don't care if you're played since alpha or not, I care about facts.
And fact is that "taunt everything & AoE" is not satisfying PvE content, and you've got to set limits to what certain roles can do in order not to undermine the other ones.

When tanks start wearing DPS gear and healing group mates because their right mouse button is so powerful, something is wrong.

When all you've got to do is blob up & spam your AoE while tank handles everything, something is wrong.

So no, I don't see why I would be defending the current snoozefest that is infinite resources.

With this logic then healers should get punished when they do damage because they shouldnt be able to do anything other then heal. And clearly DPS should suffer when they defend against damage because they shouldnt do anything other then do damage.

Those raid guilds that died didnt die because the content was too easy. Its because their wasnt anywhere near enough of it so they just did the same few things over and over.

Yes, a healer shouldn't be doing too much damage or wearing DPS gear, and DPS shouldn't be taking hits from the heavy hitting mobs.

Ideally, healers would be mainly focused on healing the group & sometimes heavy attacking to regen magicka

DPS would be mainly focused on dealing damage & you'd have several people dedicated to CC'ing adds, so tank doesn't get overwhelmed & run out of stamina.

Tank would be tanking the heaviest hitting mobs (not everything).

And here's the kicker: no one would have infinite resources.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

Tanks Dont have infinite resources but... Healers do. Better stop magicka regen while they are healing. And right now tanks do only tank the heavy hitting mobs. Again you prove you dont know what tanks do in the game. The ignorance you have shown in how pve works is absolutely amazing considering you have said you want this change for pve.

dday3six · July 2015

While it looks like with the current system it will be bad, we don't know what else will change with the new update. Perhaps there will be a tanking set which addresses Stamina Regen, or even a passive for example. However it is important to remind ZOS that it could be an issue, unless addressed correctly.

Soriana · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Soriana wrote: »

18 pages with no replies from ZOS tells me this is going through no matter what. A couple of points to ponder now that we are all speculating:

1. The remarks about nerfing overall damage by bosses and mobs makes me wonder if that is the real reason why they are lowering the XP amounts required for Vet levels.

Hey Soriana, can you please explain that point some more? What is interlinked with making the game easier and lowering vet xp?

Can you also direct me to the discussion about nerfing bosses please? Is that talk in the same ESO Live as Eric's comments on tanking?

Thank you.

I was simply speculating because so many people had come up with the same idea in this thread about bosses and mobs getting nerfed; was wondering if that has anything to do with the reason, after all these months, ZOS finally decided to lower the XP amounts for vet levels. Wasn't specifically tied into anything in the live episode, purely speculation.

Soriana · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

Tanks Dont have infinite resources but... Healers do. Better stop magicka regen while they are healing. And right now tanks do only tank the heavy hitting mobs. Again you prove you dont know what tanks do in the game. The ignorance you have shown in how pve works is absolutely amazing considering you have said you want this change for pve.

^^^This. I cannot tell you the amount of times I have heard healers quote over and over again, "Wow, I never ran out of magicka that entire fight." Meanwhile, I can count of couple of times in the fights where I got knocked clear across the room because I didn't have enough stamina to block the heavy attack I saw coming a mile away.

Maybe I just haven't ground out enough CP points yet because, even though I run footmans, hist bark, blood spawn, have almost 34K health, I'm nowhere near 'infinite resources'.

Razorback174 · July 2015

I've only got two V14's, but I have a V3 Redguard DK tank that I've only now started to do vet dungeons with. I haven't done VDSA or any of the Craglorn content yet, so I can't comment on that. What I can speak about however, is how difficult some of these gold pledges will be when I have 0 stamina regen. Case in point, the final fight in VCoH. Getting wailed on by 4 wraiths (or more when pugs don't kill them quick enough) burns through my stamina like a soldering iron through a stick of butter, all while continuously blocking.

"Just time your block!". Good luck with that. Swapping weapons and light attacking here and there between blocking leaves plenty of room for vulnerability if not timed absolutely correctly, not to mention trying to time the swings of the bosses/mobs (which always seem to go through block even though it looks like I raise my shield in time, could be a latency or animation issue).
"Just use potions!". Potions restore a solid amount, but the added regen will be null while blocking. Not to mention an agonizing cooldown.
"Just use an Earthen Heart ability!". What about stamina tanks (like me) who don't have a lot of magic to spare to cast those high cost skills? Or those tanks that just happen to be a different class than DK?
"Just have a templar throw spear shards!". Synergies have a cooldown, and more importantly, I should not have to rely on a class to complete group content.

Personally, I am not an avid PvPer. That said, why should PvEer's like us be punished for a certain playstyle in PvP? Is there not a way to make these mechanics separate, like the upcoming changes already mentioned on shields and damage? DPS are already a dime a dozen in this game, there are few healers, and even fewer tanks. If this type of change gets implemented and everything else left as is, I really think PvE tanking will become extinct. No one will want to play a role that has marginally higher survivability with absolute crap DPS. I hate to say it, but I think the future of my sub will depend on whether this incredible nerf actually gets through in the next major patch, and the silence on ZOS's side is beginning to confirm my fears.

"Play how you want!" ----> "LF1M tank", "dps LFG" ad infinitum

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

Not to mention a random patch, like last v13 can bring out lag spikes out of nowhere, people who played game normally suddenly star getting 1000+ ping lag spikes out of nowhere.

Good luck "timing your blocks" with that. ESO is not reliable enough to introduce a change that makes timing more and more critical. It leaves smaller and smaller window for non-player-related accidents. Either they provide quality service along that or people will keep dying because ESO delivered them a lag spike, their bar randomly locked up, they got animation stuck or there is dozen of other non-player-related things that can happen.

BuggeX · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

So yes the only people supporting this change are bad pvpers that cant figure out how to deal with tanks and it bothers them so much they want to see the whole tank role destroyed in pve as well as pvp.

I Play a blockcasting Tank, and crush unexperied Groups of 5 players.
The DMGoutput and mitigation from a well played "tank" is not balanced not even in PVE

The Change and Support for the removal comes from good pvpers, not from bad pvpers wich dont know how to deal with tanks.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

Sword and board doesnt make a tank. Maybe the change coems from lame pvpers who thank that if someone has shield and sword, he is automatically a tank, despite having a dps oriented build.
They see in PVP someone with shield and start being like "emgie tank killing use nerf nerf nerf plox" just like we have now.

DPS wearing shields and blockcasting in PVP mistaken for "tanks", cries of PVP whiners and ZOS decides to nerf every real PvE tank in the game.

Even if what BuggeX says is true, then the root of the problem is not stamina regen while blocking, but the DPS output while blocking!

Leave stam regen while blocking in PVE alone, leave real PVE tanks alone.
Many alternative options: 0 stam regen while blocking in cyriodiil only, reduce all dps while blocking also only in cyriodiil, do anything you like ALSO IN CYRIODIIL ONLY. Leave your QQ and pvp whines out of PVE. Cyriodiil is your sandbox, ruin game there as much as you like, by for example applying all nerfs to some generic cyriodiil only buff but dont burden PVE players with your bad judgement and decisions.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Sword and board doesnt make a tank. Maybe the change coems from lame pvpers who thank that if someone has shield and sword, he is automatically a tank, despite having a dps oriented build.
They see in PVP someone with shield and start being like "emgie tank killing use nerf nerf nerf plox" just like we have now.

DPS wearing shields and blockcasting in PVP mistaken for "tanks", cries of PVP whiners and ZOS decides to nerf every real PvE tank in the game.

exactly. But again change it in pvp that is fine. Do what is needed to balance pvp. But leave those changes in pvp.

BuggeX wrote: »

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

So yes the only people supporting this change are bad pvpers that cant figure out how to deal with tanks and it bothers them so much they want to see the whole tank role destroyed in pve as well as pvp.

I Play a blockcasting Tank, and crush unexperied Groups of 5 players.
The DMGoutput and mitigation from a well played "tank" is not balanced not even in PVE

The Change and Support for the removal comes from good pvpers, not from bad pvpers wich dont know how to deal with tanks.

If you crush groups of people.. It is not a tank. you are a DPS holding a shield. A tank is built all the way around damage mitigation and survival. IF you are crushing groups of 5 as a tank... then they were afk. But again this is a PVE thread. NOT pvp.

Maybe make a heavy armor passive require 7 heavy to give stam regen while blocking and base that regen off the players health.

BuggeX · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Even if what BuggeX says is true, then the root of the problem is not stamina regen while blocking, but the DPS output while blocking!

This would be the biggest Punch for all DKs. We do not have range, we are forced to go in.
No matter if you Play Magicka or Stamina, 90% of all DKs are using 1 Slot with s/b.
90% of our Skills are under 8m. Take away the dmg while blocking and we are crap, uselles and are forced to a flamestaf or bow.

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

So yes the only people supporting this change are bad pvpers that cant figure out how to deal with tanks and it bothers them so much they want to see the whole tank role destroyed in pve as well as pvp.

I Play a blockcasting Tank, and crush unexperied Groups of 5 players.
The DMGoutput and mitigation from a well played "tank" is not balanced not even in PVE

The Change and Support for the removal comes from good pvpers, not from bad pvpers wich dont know how to deal with tanks.

If you crush groups of people.. It is not a tank. you are a DPS holding a shield. A tank is built all the way around damage mitigation and survival. IF you are crushing groups of 5 as a tank... then they were afk. But again this is a PVE thread. NOT pvp.

Maybe make a heavy armor passive require 7 heavy to give stam regen while blocking and base that regen off the players health.

No they werent afk, but Players without nirnhorned will be dead with 2-3 hits, or 1 single Meteor.

I use the exact same Setup to tank PVE, just swaping out 1 single spell to have a taunt.
My dps as tank is between 5000-8000k depens on the boss.
In Trials a bit less.

Your last sugestion is even more BS than the removal from stam reg. I Play with 7 heavys, and have a hp pool from 27k.
"Tanks" would be even more OP.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Even if what BuggeX says is true, then the root of the problem is not stamina regen while blocking, but the DPS output while blocking!

This would be the biggest Punch for all DKs. We do not have range, we are forced to go in.
No matter if you Play Magicka or Stamina, 90% of all DKs are using 1 Slot with s/b.
90% of our Skills are under 8m. Take away the dmg while blocking and we are crap, uselles and are forced to a flamestaf or bow.

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

So yes the only people supporting this change are bad pvpers that cant figure out how to deal with tanks and it bothers them so much they want to see the whole tank role destroyed in pve as well as pvp.

I Play a blockcasting Tank, and crush unexperied Groups of 5 players.
The DMGoutput and mitigation from a well played "tank" is not balanced not even in PVE

The Change and Support for the removal comes from good pvpers, not from bad pvpers wich dont know how to deal with tanks.

If you crush groups of people.. It is not a tank. you are a DPS holding a shield. A tank is built all the way around damage mitigation and survival. IF you are crushing groups of 5 as a tank... then they were afk. But again this is a PVE thread. NOT pvp.

Maybe make a heavy armor passive require 7 heavy to give stam regen while blocking and base that regen off the players health.

No they werent afk, but Players without nirnhorned will be dead with 2-3 hits, or 1 single Meteor.

I use the exact same Setup to tank PVE, just swaping out 1 single spell to have a taunt.
My dps as tank is between 5000-8000k depens on the boss.
In Trials a bit less.

Your last sugestion is even more BS than the removal from stam reg. I Play with 7 heavys, and have a hp pool from 27k.
"Tanks" would be even more OP.

LOL 2-3 hits with what while using a shield ? Those are some very poorly geared players.

And by my suggestion I ment with the zero regen you need to wear 7 heavy to get some of it back and base that off your health. So say you have 20k health with 7 heavy then you get maybe 300 stam regen but if you have 30k health you get 500 stam regen. Or something similar to that. That way we dont get high damage light armor wearing dps builds that can block all day and hit as hard as any caster.

But yet again... this is a PVE thread. Do whatever is needed to balance PVP but keep those changes in pvp.

Technically anyone with a taunt can tank in pvp as long as they dont get one shot killed and have a healer that can carry them. A good tank should be able to survive very well without much healing at all. Just because some healer can keep you alive through boss fights in your heavy dps gear dosnt really mean you are set up as a tank.