Why is everybody against an auction house?

Potenza · May 2015

My take on the reasoning for no AH is because of simply - gold sellers. With a centralized AH gold sellers WILL create bots and control the market in a way that they can make millions of gold to sell - for cash on some questionable website that have been known to also hack accounts by getting your log in information. There are too many problems associated with a centralized AH.

As a buyer - sure its more convenience, but as a seller your going to get screwed anyway because of all the undercutting the gold sellers will create.

Urbanski101 · May 2015

@Turelus - Thanks for the info - so how do I find a large guild not looking to push for no1 spot? On the forums or is there a function in game? I know there is an addon (Master merchant?) but I've not even looked into addons just yet - only a week in

@Victus - In on the EU server. I'll maybe look in the forums for a friendly trade guild.

I have to say this all seems like a lot of effort just to sell a few items....*** hum

Heromofo · May 2015

Jaxsun wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

Lots of items will lose its value.

Pretty much 95% of items will be bare minimum price and people will only buy dps gear and such and armor with more armor value and such.

All those reduce sprinting will be garbage, bunch others will be garbage too. They somewhat decent due to fact of not being able to get the best gear easily.

Crap gear is still crap, an AH would make it cost what it should not the extorted prices we pay now.

If you think for one second that rare items would not be ridiculously expensive with a global system, you are sorely mistaken. It's everything in between that loses it's value with a global system, while rare items are still very expensive. They are expensive because they are rare. And while there would be more listings, the ease at which people could buy them would increase demand right along with supply. So the supply/demand ratio would remain the same.

Go to Diablo 3 or Guild Wars 2 and look at the prices of rare items if you don't believe me. Both games use a global system.

"I demand instant access to every item in the game, and I don't want to pay for it". That's what I keep reading here.

SWG had a global auction, personal vendors that were searchable from any terminal server wide and a trade forum, that economy was the best I've seen. It didn't destroy that game....

I could be wrong, but I don't believe SWG was on a Megaserver. This is where many people are getting confused. There is a huge difference between a Megaserver and games that are broken up into individual servers. The markets in these games like WoW, Rift, Swtor, etc are all broken down into smaller isolated economies. A Megaserver AH (global) means that every single person playing the game will be using the exact same auction house. We are talking about millions of people vs 30,000 or so you might see on a heavily populated individual server in games like in WoW.

For those that truly understand what a global system is (GW2) and you still want one, then I can respect your opinion in this debate even though I disagree with it.

For the vast majority of people that continue using games like WoW or Rift or Swtor or Lotro as an example of how an auction house effects or doesn't effect a game, please do some research or go play GW2 then get back to us. Because unless you see it for yourself, you truly have no idea what you are talking about in relation to how an auction house would effect ESO. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful.

Having constant access to 29999 consumers still makes better pricing and economy than 499...

This

Heromofo · May 2015

nastuug wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

You don't need to work together to control the market, dingus. If 10 of 1000 guilds have all the money, then 10 of 1000 guilds control the market by locking merchants down. Seriously, don't be that thick.

nastuug wrote: »

Read it all. I could've have pulled the TLDR card, but I didn't. And even though he's as truthful as he/she can be, and @ElfFromSpace is failing to see the major point. Elitist trading guilds that covet trading as actual game content are locking prime merchant locations down, effectively smothering competition with cold hard cash (gold, w/e).

I could quote many others of the same kind. You can repeat it over and over again, it is FALSE.

Proof : there are still unbid kiosks every week. How do you explain that, please ?

YES the major trading guilds require monthly "donations" from their members to cover the costs of the kiosks, but nobody is forcing anyone, those who don't want to can leave the guild. Why do we accept it ? Because it's a fair deal, my friend ! Profit with kiosk minus donation is far above profit without kiosk.Everybody wins. Other guilds are less united / less organized and cannot do it yet ? so what ? They can do the same and outbid us (which happened recently... yes, I argue with FACTS here). Are you blaming the "rich" for reinvesting their money to make more ? Making money in the game is the same kind of fun achievement as collecting trophies, achieving leaderboard scores ar conquering forts and AP in PvP. You seem to be blaming people for playing the game.

We're not "locking prime merchant locations", we're hiring traders. And we pay the price to have the best traders. Anything wrong with that ?

And by the way, average fashion shop cannot get a shop on the Champs-Elysées, only Vuitton will, BUT that does not prevent millions of average fashion shops to make a good living everywhere else.

nastuug wrote: »

I have not directly insulted members of the community. I've never mentioned a single person or guild name in my "accusations," so cross that load of crap off your list.

load of crap ? sounds very much like an insult to me...

Yes, elitist trading guilds are locking down prime merchant locations, which are already extremely limited compared to the number of guilds/players on the megaserver.

You call my claims "accusations," and I call your accusations a "load of crap." You really see a difference there?

100 percent agree i have no idea how anyone could Argue with Nas here.
The current system is crap and something has to give it seems like our side is trying to comprise.
But the other side is just saying "its fine learn to play or get lost".

nastuug · May 2015

driosketch wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the history of kiosk owners. If certain kiosks were owned by only few guilds in the past, it's a clear indication something is wrong and those that say this current system promotes elitism, are correct.
Would anyone object to such information becoming public?

How would zone centered AH or kiosk hurt the economy?

How would guilds with 5000 instead of 500 members hurt the economy?

Someone has been kind enough to start tracking all the kiosks on NA for the last 7 weeks.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/164068/guild-trader-information-na-server/p1

(Please don't start arguments in that thread. Keep the discussion here. That thread is solely for information purposes, and unless you want to do the work yourself, I'd rather not scare this generous individual off.)

At first glance it's clear that each week most or all of the clusters see at least one new guild. Craglorn's cluster has seen 13-14 guilds in the past 7 weeks. While half of them have remained with the same owner, that's not really enough to lock the cluster down, especially not with the high turn over on the seventh kiosk.

Thanks for confirming my "accusations."

Victus · May 2015

@Urbanski101 ah dang I am on NA. I am sure you can find something, it isn't too difficult, and can help you in other areas too! Personally I don't mind being part of one trade guild so I can move some items for more than a vendor will give me for them.

Good luck and hope you enjoy the game!

idk · May 2015

Heromofo wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

c00lmon wrote: »

The people that have the upper hand in the current system don't want things to change.

Interestingly enough, they are the minority in this battle.

However often have better reasons than "I CBA to move around the world".

The minority are the only ones who support the current market system. They only do so because once the doors are blown open, they will be forced to compete with every single player, regardless of guild association.

You make an assumption as to who the minority is.

Half of this thread wants it to stay and the rest want a change.

I think we should just get together and come to a solution.

Muhuhuhuhuh

The solution is in place. Already taken care of. Here is mostly people who want something different. The ones who like it the day it is mostly stay quiet, avoiding the qq.

Heromofo · May 2015

nastuug wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the history of kiosk owners. If certain kiosks were owned by only few guilds in the past, it's a clear indication something is wrong and those that say this current system promotes elitism, are correct.
Would anyone object to such information becoming public?

How would zone centered AH or kiosk hurt the economy?

How would guilds with 5000 instead of 500 members hurt the economy?

Someone has been kind enough to start tracking all the kiosks on NA for the last 7 weeks.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/164068/guild-trader-information-na-server/p1

(Please don't start arguments in that thread. Keep the discussion here. That thread is solely for information purposes, and unless you want to do the work yourself, I'd rather not scare this generous individual off.)

At first glance it's clear that each week most or all of the clusters see at least one new guild. Craglorn's cluster has seen 13-14 guilds in the past 7 weeks. While half of them have remained with the same owner, that's not really enough to lock the cluster down, especially not with the high turn over on the seventh kiosk.

Thanks for confirming my "accusations."

Yeah wow big time something really needs to change.

Heromofo · May 2015

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Heromofo wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

c00lmon wrote: »

The people that have the upper hand in the current system don't want things to change.

Interestingly enough, they are the minority in this battle.

However often have better reasons than "I CBA to move around the world".

The minority are the only ones who support the current market system. They only do so because once the doors are blown open, they will be forced to compete with every single player, regardless of guild association.

You make an assumption as to who the minority is.

Half of this thread wants it to stay and the rest want a change.

I think we should just get together and come to a solution.

Muhuhuhuhuh

The solution is in place. Already taken care of. Here is mostly people who want something different. The ones who like it the day it is mostly stay quiet, avoiding the qq.

Once again
Our side wishes to find a comprise
Your side is saying " learn to play or get lost"

So the thread goes on
And on and on

Kalifas · May 2015

Gold sellers exist in every game including this one. So I don't see this as an excuse to say the current system is better.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=eso gold for sale

An auction house is more accessible, less tedious, and faster. I don't feel more immersed regardless of the system, because buying/selling is the the part of mmos I find the most tedious and not fun inherently. Perhaps my mind would change if we could build actual store buildings and there was some kind of meta game involved besides PvP based acquirement. Or I would go play Stock Market the mmo.

I honestly don't understand a great many common things omitted from this game for this thing called immersion. Perhaps I am not seeing the deeper pros behind the current system. I ask anyone who is loving this system to enlighten me on what I am not seeing.

RazzPitazz · May 2015

Ok I'm pretty neutral since I only know the theory of each side;
If we have a global auction house wouldn't merchants just buy the cheap product, turn around and sell it for their markup price?
*edit for clarity*

Heromofo · May 2015

Kalifas wrote: »

Gold sellers exist in every game including this one. So I don't see this as an excuse to say the current system is better.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=eso gold for sale

An auction house is more accessible, less tedious, and faster. I don't feel more immersed regardless of the system, because buying/selling is the the part of mmos I find the most tedious and not fun inherently. Perhaps my mind would change if we could build actual store buildings and there was some kind of meta game involved besides PvP based acquirement. Or I would go play Stock Market the mmo.

I honestly don't understand a great many common things omitted from this game for this thing called immersion. Perhaps I am not seeing the deeper pros behind the current system. I ask anyone who is loving this system to enlighten me on what I am not seeing.

Bloody oath also i dont want to burst any bubbles here but ontop of that site their is a better one that also sells certain items.

So yeah dont blame auction houses.

driosketch · May 2015

nastuug wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the history of kiosk owners. If certain kiosks were owned by only few guilds in the past, it's a clear indication something is wrong and those that say this current system promotes elitism, are correct.
Would anyone object to such information becoming public?

How would zone centered AH or kiosk hurt the economy?

How would guilds with 5000 instead of 500 members hurt the economy?

Someone has been kind enough to start tracking all the kiosks on NA for the last 7 weeks.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/164068/guild-trader-information-na-server/p1

(Please don't start arguments in that thread. Keep the discussion here. That thread is solely for information purposes, and unless you want to do the work yourself, I'd rather not scare this generous individual off.)

At first glance it's clear that each week most or all of the clusters see at least one new guild. Craglorn's cluster has seen 13-14 guilds in the past 7 weeks. While half of them have remained with the same owner, that's not really enough to lock the cluster down, especially not with the high turn over on the seventh kiosk.

Thanks for confirming my "accusations."

Heromofo wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the history of kiosk owners. If certain kiosks were owned by only few guilds in the past, it's a clear indication something is wrong and those that say this current system promotes elitism, are correct.
Would anyone object to such information becoming public?

How would zone centered AH or kiosk hurt the economy?

How would guilds with 5000 instead of 500 members hurt the economy?

Someone has been kind enough to start tracking all the kiosks on NA for the last 7 weeks.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/164068/guild-trader-information-na-server/p1

(Please don't start arguments in that thread. Keep the discussion here. That thread is solely for information purposes, and unless you want to do the work yourself, I'd rather not scare this generous individual off.)

At first glance it's clear that each week most or all of the clusters see at least one new guild. Craglorn's cluster has seen 13-14 guilds in the past 7 weeks. While half of them have remained with the same owner, that's not really enough to lock the cluster down, especially not with the high turn over on the seventh kiosk.

Thanks for confirming my "accusations."

Yeah wow big time something really needs to change.

How so? The data doesn't really support what you've been saying. There is quite a bit of turn over on the kiosks in general, and every single cluster sees new faces almost on a weekly basis.

Turelus · May 2015

@Urbanski101 forums are a good way to find them as you're able to search for something which fits what you're looking for. Otherwise there are a few which advertise in zone chats looking to fill their last spots.

If you're on the EU servers feel free to whisper me (Tarvynus Vedralu) and I could see about giving you an invite to one of the guilds which sells in Craglorn (would require some upkeep on your selling) or a more quiet guild which doesn't compete for traders but has a nice store to sell in.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

driosketch wrote: »

How so? The data doesn't really support what you've been saying. There is quite a bit of turn over on the kiosks in general, and every single cluster sees new faces almost on a weekly basis.

"Denialism : In human behavior, denialism is exhibited by individuals choosing to deny reality as a way to avoid dealing with an uncomfortable truth".

In other words, I believe our friend is so ennoyed by the facts that he will still pretend that a square is a circle, no matter how brainless that attitude makes him look.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

But back to topic :

- Trade guilds don't prevent people to access the market since it is easy to join one
- Big guilds do not lock down on smaller, nor do they have any offline monopoly-arrangements, and there is room for everybody.

These being now stated as facts... let's see what's left :

The current system implies "competition" which implies "another gaming area". Some like the current kiosk system because they like this aspect of gaming, some dislike it because for them buying/selling stuff should just be a convenience and thus they would prefer an AH (or AH-like server-wide browsing system).

I don't see how we could make both sides happy really.

Unless I'm mistaken (I haven't made any statistics) it looks like most people wishing for an AH are people who feel uncomfortable joining a guild. May I ask what is so disturbing in doing so ? I agree that some guilds are highly ambitious and require playing schedules, attendance, levels, practice, etc... but most guilds (especially trading guilds) will just be happy to take you as you are, talkative or quiet, solo-player or raider or whatever. Really, I can understand the reluctance since I was just like that when I started the game (my 1st MMO ever), but it really isn't that bad at all. Being in a guild does not mean that you have to be on TeamSpeak as soon as you log on, nor that you have to chat with anyone, nor that you have to group up or whatever. You'll remain free as a bird.

Furthermore, not only is this an MMO, but ZOS actively encourages group play (up to making solo play nearly impossible at endgame). I understand that : social bonds are the only thing that keep players ingame once all content has been completed, that's why everything is designed towards grouping and socializing. That's valid for PvP (no solo small scale PvP), for PvE (no solo content once Cadwell's gold is done), and obviously for trading. Thus I doubt very much that ZOS will listen to arguments such as "I want to trade without being in a guild".

Urbanski101 · May 2015

@Turelus - thanks for the offer - I might just do that, I think a quiet guild would be best - I'm a noob so not much to sell right now and I'm not looking for a time sink as game time is limited - I'm just a looking for a way to make some extra gold.

@Victus - thanks for your help fella

AlnilamE · May 2015

nastuug wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Market needs to be available to all persons, even the guildless
Market needs to be searchable from a central kiosk or merchant
Market needs some way to easily monitor supply and demand of items
Seriously, how hard can this be?

Let me rephrase if you don't mind :
- You would like the market to be available to all persons, even the guildless, (it does not NEED to be this way. It's an MMO where you have to group to achieve high level content, same applies to trading, I don't see the problem here)
- You would like the market to be searchable from a central database - again it does not have to be that way, IMO current system is more fun and immersive, including for buyers)

Point 3 does not need to be rephrased since market is monitored already by supply and demand and nobody and nothing is monitoring it otherwise (except maybe ZOS who can alter drop rates of items).

Wait. Before you get trolled by someone else, I just have to ask you. You actually have fun traveling to multiple merchants and dealing with the search reset each time you exit the window? I just want to make sure I understand that correctly...

Uhm, wtf are you smoking? "Market is monitored already by supply and demand..." The market doesn't monitor the supply and demand, Jesus. The players would monitor and track this. What is the current average sale of an item? How many units are moving daily/weekly/monthly? These are the questions at-hand when talking about supply and demand. Jesus Christ people...

While I do use the AwesomeGuildstore addon (and I agree that the UI needs improvement and it should be easier for people to search for stuff and save their searches), yes, I do have run going around guild traders and looking for stuff when I get an idea in my head. Like when my Templar was getting to level 30 and was still wearing level 17-20 Warlock, I thought "I wonder how the Syrabane set would work for her" and I went around the traders and found enough pieces that she could wear at level 30 at a reasonable price. I don't necessarily care what the average price for something is. I start off with an idea of how much I'm willing to pay for a piece. It usually takes me half an hour at most to go through all the guild traders in the town centres (minus Shornhelm), and I can then choose to go to the outliers if I'm in the mood. I always check the traders that are out of the way when I'm questing to see if they have anything interesting.

As for supply and demand, I've been around long enough to remember the price of Dwemer pages when the motif first came out (20-25k) and saw them drop to what they are selling for now (around 6k).

I also remember the nirncrux stones and how the price plummeted within a week when the crafting writs came out and the Blacksmithing survey was bugged and giving 3-5 nirncrux each. Then the bug was fixed and prices went back up. Then people figured out Nirnhoned weapons/armor are actually useful for something and the price went up further.

Or how the price of Healer and Footman gear is coming down because so many people are running DSA for XP that there is an abundance of items for sale.

Or how motifs were steadily coming down in price as more and more people acquired them, and then started going up again when new players came in.

If that is not supply and demand, then please explain to me what is.

Edit: Incomplete sentence

Sylvyr · May 2015

Urbanski101 wrote: »

Hi,

I've just got the game and loving it but I was surprised to find out there was no auction house in the game.

I like the crafting and resource gathering but do I really have to join a trade guild to sell my stuff?

From reading a few posts on the topic it seems to be a bone on contention within the player base. I'm still a low lvl toon and trying to work out the mechanics but joining a guild just to sell my stuff seems very odd - I don't particularly want to join a guild right now but I'd like to sell some of the resources I've gathered, maybe buy a couple of nice low lvl items.

Wandering around the hub areas spamming in local is just not an option, I bought the game to have fun not to become a street peddler & annoy people.

So for a non idustrialist / merchant who just wants to buy and sell a few items what am I supposed to do outside of the npc stores??

But it's an adventure!

Heromofo · May 2015

Sylvyr wrote: »

Urbanski101 wrote: »

Hi,

I've just got the game and loving it but I was surprised to find out there was no auction house in the game.

I like the crafting and resource gathering but do I really have to join a trade guild to sell my stuff?

From reading a few posts on the topic it seems to be a bone on contention within the player base. I'm still a low lvl toon and trying to work out the mechanics but joining a guild just to sell my stuff seems very odd - I don't particularly want to join a guild right now but I'd like to sell some of the resources I've gathered, maybe buy a couple of nice low lvl items.

Wandering around the hub areas spamming in local is just not an option, I bought the game to have fun not to become a street peddler & annoy people.

So for a non idustrialist / merchant who just wants to buy and sell a few items what am I supposed to do outside of the npc stores??

But it's an adventure!

An evil adventure full of death and decay and mind numbing boredom.

Sylvyr · May 2015

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

My take on the reasoning for no AH is because of simply - gold sellers. With a centralized AH gold sellers WILL create bots and control the market in a way that they can make millions of gold to sell - for cash on some questionable website that have been known to also hack accounts by getting your log in information. There are too many problems associated with a centralized AH.

As a buyer - sure its more convenience, but as a seller your going to get screwed anyway because of all the undercutting the gold sellers will create.

question - how can you undercut items put up for auction?

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

Sylvyr wrote: »

question - how can you undercut items put up for auction?

By offering the same item as another seller but for a lower price ? (being even only 1g less) ?

Sylvyr · May 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Sylvyr wrote: »

question - how can you undercut items put up for auction?

By offering the same item as another seller but for a lower price ? (being even only 1g less) ?

I don't understand. If an item is put up for action, players bid on it and the prices goes up until the auction is over right? So if another person lists an item for auction for 1g less, even if someone bids the opening price, anyone can bid more right? It doesn't guarentee it will be sold at the 1g less price as far as I understand.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

Well I'm not an expert at MMOs but I believe that the term "auction house" has been widely used (and actually abused) to name what in fact is "a global interface showing items for sale in the entire world", without actually allowing to "bid" or "auction". Either you buy or you don't.

There are many other language distortion I could notice in the MMO slang, like the confusion between "drop" and "loot", or the widespread "DPS" instead of "damage dealer", and so on... like "nerf" too...

Sylvyr · May 2015

So people can't put up items for auction in an auction house?

c.p.garrett1993_ESO · May 2015

Can someone who is against the idea acknowledge and provide a valid argument against my suggestion? Everyone that is arguing against this seems to have jumped in on the idea that an AH would be implemented similar to other games. I have already directly addressed this (from the beginning) and suggested incorporating the current system into the AH. Giving current store owners priority listings that appear above those of lower bidders and the free-for-all market.

Implementing this method would not only keep the current competition a viable and relevant method of trading but increase the amount of people who will see your goods. You will be able to sell more at the same price and keep your relevance on the market. PLUS prevent any person(s) from controlling the market single-handedly.

I am NOT asking for an AH that overwrites the current market.

Sylvyr · May 2015

Solution to this whole trading fiasco.

Make everything bind on pickup

Heromofo · May 2015

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

Can someone who is against the idea acknowledge and provide a valid argument against my suggestion? Everyone that is arguing against this seems to have jumped in on the idea that an AH would be implemented similar to other games. I have already directly addressed this (from the beginning) and suggested incorporating the current system into the AH. Giving current store owners priority listings that appear above those of lower bidders and the free-for-all market.

Implementing this method would not only keep the current competition a viable and relevant method of trading but increase the amount of people who will see your goods. You will be able to sell more at the same price and keep your relevance on the market. PLUS prevent any person(s) from controlling the market single-handedly.

I am NOT asking for an AH that overwrites the current market.

You know i have your back jack

King Bozo · May 2015

The reason that some are against auction house is because those in traders guilds fear it will be the end of traders guild.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO · May 2015

Sylvyr wrote: »

So people can't put up items for auction in an auction house?

Generally it's just a centralized marketplace.
Think Amazon, not eBay. You just buy the items for their listed price.
I really don't understand the "Auction House" terminology, but that's what they call it.