Why is everybody against an auction house?

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

Edit (Complete Overhaul):

--Original post was pretty much the title: why are people against the idea?--

Ideally this system would need to incorporate the current guild traders in a way that does not harm the current system.
Trading should not be limited to end-game, competitive content only. This should, however, remain viable.

It could work similar to the following:
- The AH would include guild stores.
- Those with vendors would take priority, in order of the bid amount placed.
- Priority items would appear before any others, lower bidders (kiosks/ vendors) goods would only be viewed by going to their store or buy the higher bidders item(s) selling out/ not available.
- Searching items would have to include multiple factors, such by text and/ or the level and quality of the item. This prevents lower bidders and free-for-all traders from being excluded from the listings.

Example: I want a piece of light armor that is both level 30 and rare. If both the highest and lowest bidders from the current system have an item that fits this search than I would see the highest bidders' item(s) first. If they do not than I would see the item from whomever is the highest bidder who meets this search. If none of the bidders meet this search than I would see the free-for-all players.

This keeps the current competition and relevance of the current system.

Detailed Example:

Player A is a part of Guild X, offering Product 1 at 3K. Guild X has a vendor that cost 1M.
Player B is a part of Guild Y, offering product 1 at 4K. Guild Y has a vendor that cost 800K.
Player C is not a selling with a guild, offering product 1& 2 at 2K. They do not have a vendor.

Player A & Guild X would have their goods display before both Player B & Guild Y as well as Player C.
Player C offers product 2 whereas Guild X & Y do not. This item would be immediately available to be sold.
- Presuming no other guild with a vendor is offering this same item.

In order to find competitive prices you would still need to use the current market. This system is for convenience only.

It's not the best concept, still needing some work. However it is a fair start at a compromise.

Yinmaigao

Not everyone is against an auction house

htoncic

Coz it would supposedly destroy the economy that doesn't exist in the first place. I dunno, people are weird. Shouting WTS all day is better I guess.

nastuug

You're barking up the wrong tree. I would recommend just posting in the other current thread about this.

Heromofo

I am fighting hard for the auction house as the current system is floored if anyone here as seen my threads part 5 covers this well.

In it i point out how it screws over all by the large guilds because the little guys cannot afford 1.5 million for a vendor.

nastuug

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

Yinmaigao wrote: »

Not everyone is against an auction house

A very vocal part of the community is.
Whether it is a minority or majority, I'm not sure.
Since ZOS is against the concept themselves we would have to quell any concerned players before we would have enough people in support to change their minds.
This topic will be to see those concerns and see if we can find a compromise that puts everybody on the same page. I will then create a poll that tries to propose a solution that benefits everybody.

Turelus

For me it's because I like the system as it is now.

We have trade guild competing and working to build their reputations and quality, there is a massive gold sink each week where millions of gold is removed from the game via bidding, all the best build are located in one zone any way.

I have very little issues finding the items for prices I like by just heading to Craglorn and visiting the top tier guilds, I can also market trade by checking other stores and importing into my own guilds. It's refreshing to see a system which take players banding together, organisation and leaves an opening for market trading instead on one single point where everything you want is located.

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

nastuug

Turelus wrote: »

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

How about the fact that you can't search for items by text? Or perhaps that you must visit tens of merchants across the lands just to hunt for a single item?

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

nastuug wrote: »

You're barking up the wrong tree. I would recommend just posting in the other current thread about this.

That seems to be about adding auction house features to guild traders, not about trying to create a centralized market that you can go to and purchase whatever you please.
Not only does it not have the same concept but it is also more beneficial to run my own topic and interact with the community so I can create another topic (poll) later with a concept for a fully functional system.

Attorneyatlawl

htoncic wrote: »

Coz it would supposedly destroy the economy that doesn't exist in the first place. I dunno, people are weird. Shouting WTS all day is better I guess.

There is actually a very active and bustling economy if you pay attention. 3 of the trade guilds I am in turn over in excess of 25 million gold of sales per week and merchanting gameplay is very fun. I don't know how you could find yourself shouting to sell things all day.... you should be listing most things on guild stores and zone chat advertising items you want to get the best offer on or that are rarer and people may not be checking kiosks for regularly, all while playing the game like always.

I don't spend more than 2 minutes ever porting around to advertise, when I even do instead of just selling where I am over the course of a day or two. The guild store and kiosk system serves to segment the economy instead of having 2+ million players all using one npc to buy and sell with (it essentially becomes a vendor, why even have trade then?), as well as allow for arbitrage, resale, scarcity, and help hedge against price fixing a bit as there's no immediate and easy way to buy and corner the market on goods, whereas larger or even global ones can have that done easily enough and are just a matter of having enough gold to scale to do so. There are a handful of minor positives to thousands of players big auction houses, but global ones are inevitably inferior. This system has more depth and is more intricate.

Naivefanboi

I thought their solution was removing zone chat? Adding voice chat.

Alphashado

It would be no different than a Global Auction house. GW2 has a global auction house. And because of the ease in which the entire market is exposed to everyone, it also has things like this:

Please CLICK THESE LINKS and open your eyes to the true world of a global auction system.

http://thebotsuite.com/index.php/gw2-vp-trading-bot/

Which leads to this:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1198557-GW2-Auction-House-Rigged-Fixed

Global systems are run, managed, manipulated, infiltrated, and propagated by bots and people that control it like Wall Street.

Price fixing of this magnitude is simply impossible in our current system and bots don't bother wasting their time here anymore. Most people asking for a Global AH would be begging for this system back after a month.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

For me it's because I like the system as it is now.

We have trade guild competing and working to build their reputations and quality, there is a massive gold sink each week where millions of gold is removed from the game via bidding, all the best build are located in one zone any way.

I have very little issues finding the items for prices I like by just heading to Craglorn and visiting the top tier guilds, I can also market trade by checking other stores and importing into my own guilds. It's refreshing to see a system which take players banding together, organisation and leaves an opening for market trading instead on one single point where everything you want is located.

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

- An AH could use the guild stores, rather than be a free to use market.
- An AH could give a priority or bonuses to those who own vendors, so this gold sink is not eliminated.
- Your experience does not reflect that of everybody else.
- Your statement also directly states how the more popular guilds are the only ones that can get attention and profit, regardless of the quality of their store.
- My proposal is a system that utilizes what is already in place, rather than replacing it. Allowing both guilds and buyers an easier and more convenient way to buy/ sell.

Attorneyatlawl

Turelus wrote: »

For me it's because I like the system as it is now.

We have trade guild competing and working to build their reputations and quality, there is a massive gold sink each week where millions of gold is removed from the game via bidding, all the best build are located in one zone any way.

I have very little issues finding the items for prices I like by just heading to Craglorn and visiting the top tier guilds, I can also market trade by checking other stores and importing into my own guilds. It's refreshing to see a system which take players banding together, organisation and leaves an opening for market trading instead on one single point where everything you want is located.

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

Reputation, relationships, and even frankly the social aspect, all are additional benefits over global auctions, for sure. I actually came back to add that to my post but then saw you had covered it . The trade system is part of what attracted me to ESO back in 2013 and it remains a major key feature as to why I enjoy the game .

Turelus

nastuug wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

How about the fact that you can't search for items by text? Or perhaps that you must visit tens of merchants across the lands just to hunt for a single item?

The search is a flaw in the UI not the merchant system though.

Most UI pains can be fixed by getting add-ons and as for hunting a single item it depends what you're looking for. Most good items are always supplied via the Craglorn merchants, it's only outline unused items or sets which don't tend to be sold there.

If you're looking for Martial Knowledge for example there are hundreds of copies in Craglorn at the standard prices, If you're looking for a level 20 only set then it will be harder to find it there, but most people don't want/need those sets as much.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

htoncic wrote: »

Coz it would supposedly destroy the economy that doesn't exist in the first place. I dunno, people are weird. Shouting WTS all day is better I guess.

There is actually a very active and bustling economy if you pay attention. 3 of the trade guilds I am in turn over in excess of 25 million gold of sales per week and merchanting gameplay is very fun. I don't know how you could find yourself shouting to sell things all day.... you should be listing most things on guild stores and zone chat advertising items you want to get the best offer on or that are rarer and people may not be checking kiosks for regularly, all while playing the game like always.

I don't spend more than 2 minutes ever porting around to advertise, when I even do instead of just selling where I am over the course of a day or two. The guild store and kiosk system serves to segment the economy instead of having 2+ million players all using one npc to buy and sell with (it essentially becomes a vendor, why even have trade then?), as well as allow for arbitrage, resale, scarcity, and help hedge against price fixing a bit as there's no immediate and easy way to buy and corner the market on goods, whereas larger or even global ones can have that done easily enough and are just a matter of having enough gold to scale to do so. There are a handful of minor positives to thousands of players big auction houses, but global ones are inevitably inferior. This system has more depth and is more intricate.

I can see how that may prove beneficial.
However, that same system creates artificial scarcity, increases the difficulty in locating the item(s) you want/ need, splits the community, and increases spam on the chat from people who cannot get their merchandise to a popular vendor. I can see how the current system is beneficial, and this is why I propose it is incorporated into an AH rather than replaced. However I see more negatives to leaving the system as it is.

Cuyler

@c.p.garrett1993_ESO,

This is why. Do yourself a favor...click it and READ.

Heromofo

Turelus wrote: »

For me it's because I like the system as it is now.

We have trade guild competing and working to build their reputations and quality, there is a massive gold sink each week where millions of gold is removed from the game via bidding, all the best build are located in one zone any way.

I have very little issues finding the items for prices I like by just heading to Craglorn and visiting the top tier guilds, I can also market trade by checking other stores and importing into my own guilds. It's refreshing to see a system which take players banding together, organisation and leaves an opening for market trading instead on one single point where everything you want is located.

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

What about the guilds that just cant compete with the ones that can drop a million on a vendor?.

qsnoopyjr

Lots of items will lose its value.

Pretty much 95% of items will be bare minimum price and people will only buy dps gear and such and armor with more armor value and such.

All those reduce sprinting will be garbage, bunch others will be garbage too. They somewhat decent due to fact of not being able to get the best gear easily.

Heromofo

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

For me it's because I like the system as it is now.

We have trade guild competing and working to build their reputations and quality, there is a massive gold sink each week where millions of gold is removed from the game via bidding, all the best build are located in one zone any way.

I have very little issues finding the items for prices I like by just heading to Craglorn and visiting the top tier guilds, I can also market trade by checking other stores and importing into my own guilds. It's refreshing to see a system which take players banding together, organisation and leaves an opening for market trading instead on one single point where everything you want is located.

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

- An AH could use the guild stores, rather than be a free to use market.
- An AH could give a priority or bonuses to those who own vendors, so this gold sink is not eliminated.
- Your experience does not reflect that of everybody else.
- Your statement also directly states how the more popular guilds are the only ones that can get attention and profit, regardless of the quality of their store.
- My proposal is a system that utilizes what is already in place, rather than replacing it. Allowing both guilds and buyers an easier and more convenient way to buy/ sell.

Never give up Garrett i promise you i wont stop

THEY SHALL HAVE TO BAN ME FIRST lol

I got your back jack i mean garrett...

Nestor

Isn't the whole idea of an MMO to search out that which is rare? An Auction House takes that away. I also like being able to find bargains.

As far as not being able to find what I want, of the common items, that is not an issue with the current system. I can search 10 guild stores in a matter of a few minutes (5 Kiosks in a town and the 5 I am a member of) and find anything common I need. May not be for the best price, but that is for me to determine if it's worth looking for a bargain.

The only two issues with the current system is more guilds that want to be a part of it are locked out than are allowed in, and you have to be in a guild to sell in Kiosk (and a guild that gets a Kiosk). The first is easy to fix if they would just allow more than one Guild to get a Kiosk. Which would also take care of the other issue as more people could find a guild that has a kiosk to sell in.

Heromofo

Nestor wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea of an MMO to search out that which is rare? An Auction House takes that away. I also like being able to find bargains.

As far as not being able to find what I want, of the common items, that is not an issue with the current system. I can search 10 guild stores in a matter of a few minutes (5 Kiosks in a town and the 5 I am a member of) and find anything common I need. May not be for the best price, but that is for me to determine if it's worth looking for a bargain.

The only two issues with the current system is more guilds that want to be a part of it are locked out than area allowed in, and you have to be in a guild to sell in Kiosk (and a guild that gets a Kiosk). The first is easy to fix if they would just allow more than one Guild to get a Kiosk. Which would also take care of the other issue as more people could find a guild that has a kiosk to sell in.

Your last part is right alot of guilds and players like me who hate and i mean hate been forced into guilds are been locked out.
Because we dont have the millions to bid or for me been forced into guilds. In wow i was a lone wolf type played with mates but i would join their guild runs so i was always geared so i could lead pug runs if i wanted something. Also i really enjoyed playing the market and i was good back is BC days i was always loaded comming into wotlk people would spin out with my Harley. So i am really upset about this because ZOS went out of there way to avoid Ah .

Naivefanboi

Nestor wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea of an MMO to search out that which is rare? An Auction House takes that away. I also like being able to find bargains.

As far as not being able to find what I want, of the common items, that is not an issue with the current system. I can search 10 guild stores in a matter of a few minutes (5 Kiosks in a town and the 5 I am a member of) and find anything common I need. May not be for the best price, but that is for me to determine if it's worth looking for a bargain.

The only two issues with the current system is more guilds that want to be a part of it are locked out than area allowed in, and you have to be in a guild to sell in Kiosk (and a guild that gets a Kiosk). The first is easy to fix if they would just allow more than one Guild to get a Kiosk. Which would also take care of the other issue as more people could find a guild that has a kiosk to sell in.

You make a great point, but since we are able to farm and make evrything ourselves. People will always have a back up option.
I prefer zone chat buying/selling or just farming/crafting it myself.
Too bad i have to give part of that up because i chose to play on console. Thnx zeni

Psychobunni

Honestly, I think we need a mix of the two. The kiosk system sucks skeever dung. The only people that benefit from it are the largest trade guilds and players that live on ESO. Only a few locations are even prime because most customers can't be bothered to spend hours searching dingy, remote locations.

A few simple things could improve the system tenfold like...

Allowing a couple guilds per kiosk (hang the banners as flags, no one really cares abt seeing what banner the trader is wearing)

Reworking the interface (players shouldn't be forced to use addons to get around a broken system)


and only the guild leader sees the bid(s) until trader is won (privacy and transparency)


But no, ZOS seems content to let it ride and let us argue about it every. single. week. on forum

Turelus

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- An AH could use the guild stores, rather than be a free to use market.

This however eliminates the competition for trade guilds. Why would you join what are currently the top trade guilds offering the best services over any guild with 50 people when benefits would be the same?
While again it's my own opinions, I like that we have competition and quality in trade guilds the same as PVP and PVE ones, guild who want to go for it can establish a name for themselves.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- An AH could give a priority or bonuses to those who own vendors, so this gold sink is not eliminated.

This would have to be a pretty heavy bonus if guilds are going to continue to invest millions of gold a week on merchants. The reason there are large sinks is because guilds compete for the best locations (Craglorn) forcing prices up and making sure only the successful guilds which are offering the best services are getting those spots.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- Your experience does not reflect that of everybody else.

That's true. However everything I have achieved is achievable by others. I didn't do anything special to get into two of the Craglorn trade guilds, I simply asked around for people who were in them and then asked for invites. I can now sell my wares faster and at good prices.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- Your statement also directly states how the more popular guilds are the only ones that can get attention and profit, regardless of the quality of their store.

That's not entirely true. A guild needs to have quality to gain the profits required for Craglorn merchants. A merchant there costs hundreds of thousands if not millions of gold. Any guild with 500 members is not going to achieve that unless they're turning over a lot of high value or quality items. This is what you see in Craglorn with guilds established there.

Heromofo

Turelus wrote: »

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- An AH could use the guild stores, rather than be a free to use market.

This however eliminates the competition for trade guilds. Why would you join what are currently the top trade guilds offering the best services over any guild with 50 people when benefits would be the same?
While again it's my own opinions, I like that we have competition and quality in trade guilds the same as PVP and PVE ones, guild who want to go for it can establish a name for themselves.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- An AH could give a priority or bonuses to those who own vendors, so this gold sink is not eliminated.

This would have to be a pretty heavy bonus if guilds are going to continue to invest millions of gold a week on merchants. The reason there are large sinks is because guilds compete for the best locations (Craglorn) forcing prices up and making sure only the successful guilds which are offering the best services are getting those spots.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- Your experience does not reflect that of everybody else.

That's true. However everything I have achieved is achievable by others. I didn't do anything special to get into two of the Craglorn trade guilds, I simply asked around for people who were in them and then asked for invites. I can now sell my wares faster and at good prices.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

- Your statement also directly states how the more popular guilds are the only ones that can get attention and profit, regardless of the quality of their store.

That's not entirely true. A guild needs to have quality to gain the profits required for Craglorn merchants. A merchant there costs hundreds of thousands if not millions of gold. Any guild with 500 members is not going to achieve that unless they're turning over a lot of high value or quality items. This is what you see in Craglorn with guilds established there.

What about the people like

Small guilds who cannot get a turn in the vendors.
People like me who bloody hate guilds especially because they dont stop talking.
People who want Auction Houses.

Because i really need to know why people like been forced into guilds and this silly bidding system?

Yinmaigao

I think there are some disillusioned people in this thread that thing there is not price fixing/gouging going on already... Having vendors spread out makes it "blend in" to the background and makes it harder to stop imo.

First, I know SEVERAL people in high-volume trade guilds who regularly use an open guild slot to join new trade guilds, drain all the "cheap" items and turn them for a profit in their main trade guild.

Second, people who use DataDaedra/Master Merchant get data skewed if they don't pay attention by these same people using two accounts to sell a cheap item (i.e. style material) for 10k gold to raise the average threshold/perceived value. This can be mitigated a little by making sure to turn off outliers, but a lot of people don't do that.

Anytime there is a system where people can manipulate other to gain for themselves, it will happen.

nastuug

Turelus wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Most of the arguments for a global AH are that it's easier for players and x game has it. Neither of these seem like positives which outweigh the reasons I like it above.

How about the fact that you can't search for items by text? Or perhaps that you must visit tens of merchants across the lands just to hunt for a single item?

Most UI pains can be fixed by getting add-ons and as for hunting a single item it depends what you're looking for.

Cool, you can go ahead and stop right there. There are limits to being forced to download addons. So you're saying that we should accept a flawed UI, especially in one of the most vital categories, and just download an addon to solve the problem?

Varicite

I'm not against an Auction House, honestly.

But I do understand what ZOS was going for w/ the vendor / trader system. I just don't think that it's worked out very well in reality, or that the tedium involved in actually finding what you need at a decent price was quite what was anticipated.

The idea of wandering through markets w/ people shouting out their wares (zone chat) and finding the best price for what you need is endearing. But in practice, it really just amounts to HUGE amounts of time wasted compared to most other MMOs to do something extremely mundane.

Psychobunni

Heromofo wrote: »

What about the people like

Small guilds who cannot get a turn in the vendors.
People like me who bloody hate guilds especially because they dont stop talking.
People who want Auction Houses.

Because i really need to know why people like been forced into guilds and this silly bidding system?

I keep my trade guilds chat turned completely off. It is however getting worse (from what I'm seeing) large guilds that have operated a year without restrictions, adding more and more must sell this amount, in this many days, etc rules