Or what if again they lock it? The moment you spend a point in a class' skill line, the other classes' skill lines are locked out untill you respec. That way you have access too all lines on 1 character, but you can still only be one class at a time. Then you can have alts or not depending on your preference.

Wow. Ok. Might need a chainsaw to break this book down into chapters, but by the 8 I'll try.

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

The thing is ESO did capture the ES vibe while still being a MMO.

And, as far as world and quest creation? Storylines? They did. Entirely. You will never hear me critique that. It's the most amazing game on the market in that regard. Sadly, this thread is about game mechanics, which is a different....errr...fruit. Or vegetable. Or...something. I've lost track.

The problem you seem unwilling, unable, or incapable of understanding is that when converting any single player RPG to a MMO there are going to be compromises to make it a valid and competitive MMO.

Yup. The main one I can agree with, despite all the tears on the subject, was open-world exploration, all ES style. Scaling whole zones to individual player level was simply astronomical in difficulty. Especially when you then throw in other players. It boggles the mind at the complexity.

Although, I have to admit, when you say "valid and competitive" like that, it sounds just like the justification fast food companies use to pay their employees like crap. Same words, even. So, here's a pro-tip: "Valid" and "Competitive" aren't the same as "Good" and, divines forbid "Best".

This includes making a system that both forces and encourages diversity in specs, more often then not the holy trinity you seem to abhor, and making a complex chain of systems that encourage group play.

So. Your idea of diversity is...3? Your idea of complex chains of systems is...3?

And you think this game encourages group play? Are we even playing the same game?

ESO accomplished this via classes, its elder scroll esque combat system and spec system and group dynamics. You may not be able to be your elder scrolls godlike dragon-born ruling the skies with maxed everything but that's actually a good thing for balance and play ability for all in the long run.

All who? All the ES fans who already threw the game away? Or do you mean the really open-ended magic system that mages like myself use instead of being forced to magick through a weapon?

Since you seem to be missing all my previous points so entirely well, let me use simple words: I would rather min everything than be able to max everything. Dig?

Also from earlier when i mentioned numbers in a mmo.... 12 bests is what we have now and no i did not pull that from a hat.

Nope. Thought you pulled them out of somewhere far less comfortable, if I'm being honest.

give or take a few we have 12 best specs per class right now (you may be able to argue a little higher) that number is based on each class able to do each role (3 roles) and there being 4 classes. speccing right to max out that specific role nets 12 best specs. arguably you can go to perhaps 18-24 if you distinguish between ranged and melee but overall that's the general number. reducing or eliminating classes would reduce that number to perhaps 6 -8 min maxed best specs as you get the best ranged and melee dps, best healer, and best tank builds.

This. This right here is why we won't ever agree. You sit talking about about specs per class, and roles and builds, whereas I'm referring to the original "play as you want" mantra from ZOS.

And for better or worst thats how it works in mmo's. people like to be the best, and once "the best" builds get posted as cookie cutter the majority will use them. you may have a few here and there that perform well with their own build, or just dont care but thats how it works

Worse. Definitely worse. My point is there's plenty of games that cater to your particular mentality. The very last thing the ES brand name needed was yet another. But that's what they got. ESO won't ever win trying to beat that particular game. But they could've changed the rules and made one of their own. They didn't. And here we are.

no matter how much in denial you really are.

You wouldn't believe the therapy bills I have.

But... back on topic. this games classes are great. the game still feels like an elder scrolls game.

This made me giggle, though. Thanks for that. First laugh I've had today.

And the more i hear you talk the more im starting to think you were either a skyrim only player that feels that is the entirety and pinacle of elder scrolls or you're just arguing to argue. everything previous to skyrim had you chose a core set of abilities that leveled at a faster pace then the rest and would not only be the main way to level but would influence what type of character you were.

Well, in all honesty, I do believe Skyrim was Bethesda's pinnacle. So far. They really do get better with age. But prior? I mean...did you even play Oblivion? Yeah, those skills leveled faster, but they didn't define you. In fact, most people chose skills they wouldn't level fast so as to not over-level.

You know. With choice.

ESO took that same idea for their classes and has you chose up front what 4 abilities you want to define your character.

No, you get a pre-packaged set of 4 skill sets. If you got to choose which 4 skill lines you wanted up front, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Are you sure you are posting in the right thread?

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

Winter the play as you want mantra from ZOS is valid. you can always play as you want more or less

Less more than more, sadly.

the problem is that no matter how hard ZOS or you try to spin it at the end of the day people want to play as the best. Play as you want really just turns into play what the best cookie cutter spec is at the moment and nothing will change that.

Again, that's already happening right now. Right this very second. Being skill-based won't change that. Just as being class-based hasn't.

At the very least classes as they are now are forcing the "best" to be spread out a bit instead of focused into a minimal few builds. as i said at the absolute worst the classes are keeping the "best" spread out based on your class and role choice to 12 options (sorc heal, sorc dps, sorc tank. dk heal, tank, dps, etc) vs just a solid.... whats bis for dps in dungeon x and that goes for everyone its more whats bis for sorc dps in dungeon x.

It's not that I disagree. You are right, as far as it goes. But consider being able to pick your 3 skill lines at start. Consider then, trying to balance them off for any given situation. I'm not advocating being able to level up all the skill lines. I've always thought there were far too many skillpoints in this game anyways. But I'd like to have the freedom to be able to build the character I want to play.

Admittedly, that might be a bit selfish on my part, but then consider how many different permutations that would throw into your mix of possible "best"s. Especially if they first gave the class skills some much-needed TLC.

It would truly be epic.

Its not what YOU wanted but its not this over riding thing causing this game to not be Elder Scrolls enough or make the game a failure. And despite the screams this game isn't failing... Its been rising in pop, i have never felt a shortage of people to play with, and its sure as hell doing a lot better then its release mate wildstar

I can't speak about Wildstar. All I can tell you is ESO might as well be a ghost town compared to the days of old. And it's getting worse. That's something I do have a bit of experience with.

Edit: It's not anyone's fault, really. I mostly lurk. But believe you me, a topic about skill-based comes up, you'll find me there. I'm well aware nothing will change at this late date. I just can't help but rub ZOS's nose into the biggest mistake I think they made as I watch the train fly off the tracks. And take out myriad bystanders.

If you think cookie cutter class builds are bad now wait til you remove class specific abilities and let any class use them lol. Everyone will run the exact same build using only the best skills from each class. Its a nice idea but also a terrible one.

Wintersage wrote: »

Wow. Ok. Might need a chainsaw to break this book down into chapters, but by the 8 I'll try.

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

The thing is ESO did capture the ES vibe while still being a MMO.

And, as far as world and quest creation? Storylines? They did. Entirely. You will never hear me critique that. It's the most amazing game on the market in that regard. Sadly, this thread is about game mechanics, which is a different....errr...fruit. Or vegetable. Or...something. I've lost track.

The problem you seem unwilling, unable, or incapable of understanding is that when converting any single player RPG to a MMO there are going to be compromises to make it a valid and competitive MMO.

Yup. The main one I can agree with, despite all the tears on the subject, was open-world exploration, all ES style. Scaling whole zones to individual player level was simply astronomical in difficulty. Especially when you then throw in other players. It boggles the mind at the complexity.

Although, I have to admit, when you say "valid and competitive" like that, it sounds just like the justification fast food companies use to pay their employees like crap. Same words, even. So, here's a pro-tip: "Valid" and "Competitive" aren't the same as "Good" and, divines forbid "Best".

This includes making a system that both forces and encourages diversity in specs, more often then not the holy trinity you seem to abhor, and making a complex chain of systems that encourage group play.

So. Your idea of diversity is...3? Your idea of complex chains of systems is...3?

And you think this game encourages group play? Are we even playing the same game?

ESO accomplished this via classes, its elder scroll esque combat system and spec system and group dynamics. You may not be able to be your elder scrolls godlike dragon-born ruling the skies with maxed everything but that's actually a good thing for balance and play ability for all in the long run.

All who? All the ES fans who already threw the game away? Or do you mean the really open-ended magic system that mages like myself use instead of being forced to magick through a weapon?

Since you seem to be missing all my previous points so entirely well, let me use simple words: I would rather min everything than be able to max everything. Dig?

Also from earlier when i mentioned numbers in a mmo.... 12 bests is what we have now and no i did not pull that from a hat.

Nope. Thought you pulled them out of somewhere far less comfortable, if I'm being honest.

give or take a few we have 12 best specs per class right now (you may be able to argue a little higher) that number is based on each class able to do each role (3 roles) and there being 4 classes. speccing right to max out that specific role nets 12 best specs. arguably you can go to perhaps 18-24 if you distinguish between ranged and melee but overall that's the general number. reducing or eliminating classes would reduce that number to perhaps 6 -8 min maxed best specs as you get the best ranged and melee dps, best healer, and best tank builds.

This. This right here is why we won't ever agree. You sit talking about about specs per class, and roles and builds, whereas I'm referring to the original "play as you want" mantra from ZOS.

And for better or worst thats how it works in mmo's. people like to be the best, and once "the best" builds get posted as cookie cutter the majority will use them. you may have a few here and there that perform well with their own build, or just dont care but thats how it works

Worse. Definitely worse. My point is there's plenty of games that cater to your particular mentality. The very last thing the ES brand name needed was yet another. But that's what they got. ESO won't ever win trying to beat that particular game. But they could've changed the rules and made one of their own. They didn't. And here we are.

no matter how much in denial you really are.

You wouldn't believe the therapy bills I have.

But... back on topic. this games classes are great. the game still feels like an elder scrolls game.

This made me giggle, though. Thanks for that. First laugh I've had today.

And the more i hear you talk the more im starting to think you were either a skyrim only player that feels that is the entirety and pinacle of elder scrolls or you're just arguing to argue. everything previous to skyrim had you chose a core set of abilities that leveled at a faster pace then the rest and would not only be the main way to level but would influence what type of character you were.

Well, in all honesty, I do believe Skyrim was Bethesda's pinnacle. So far. They really do get better with age. But prior? I mean...did you even play Oblivion? Yeah, those skills leveled faster, but they didn't define you. In fact, most people chose skills they wouldn't level fast so as to not over-level.

You know. With choice.

ESO took that same idea for their classes and has you chose up front what 4 abilities you want to define your character.

No, you get a pre-packaged set of 4 skill sets. If you got to choose which 4 skill lines you wanted up front, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Are you sure you are posting in the right thread?

Jesus, son. I take a few hours to catch up at work, and look at what you've done.

You know, I'm enjoying you're posts thoroughly. Thank you for trying to stay on topic.

Well I for one enjoy my class and would be sad to see it gone.
Also for the "If I want to tank I play Dragon Knight"; I'm a DragonKnight Firemage/Resto Healer and my bubu is a Templar tank.

No.

if this happens, then everyone will be spamming hardened ward, using dragon blood, spamming bolt escape, and other FOTM specs. diversity will be utterly destroyed, and the game will become boring as heck

Haqikah wrote: »

No, please no! The balancing would be far to complex and never work out; do not forget that the other ES games are single player games where balancing is not an issue, but in a MMO there should be some kind of balancing to prevent every competitive player to use the same build.
I am anxiously awaiting the release of spellcrafting, as that might very well be the end of the classes anyway (except for a theme to your character). Nevertheless I am looking forward for spellcrafting.

Another reason for the 'no' is that I like the different 'themes' of characters; I know this is kind of a subjective reason but - for me - a reason nevertheless.

Just curious but last time i saw anything on this spellcrafting was at the very best put on the deep back burner if not canceled. Have they come out and said they are back to working on it?

Haqikah wrote: »

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

Just curious but last time i saw anything on this spellcrafting was at the very best put on the deep back burner if not canceled. Have they come out and said they are back to working on it?

Hmm, now you mention it... ZoS is terribly silent about spellcrafting lately. During ESO live of 24 april they acknowledged once more that besides bug fixing no new DLC or free content updates will occur before console launch.

that's what i had seen. and although my memory is shaky to the specific month i think back in December or February we were told that spellcrafting although not forgotten is being put basically on the shelf till a later date.

PKMN12 wrote: »

let me put it this way. everyone advocating for no classes are actually advocating for no freedom in choice with the way they build their character, because everyone would simply choose the best options for each role and be done with it, there would be little to no choice at all, MUCH less then we have even now.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

First - I have more faith in the creativity of the various skill lines, and the needs of the various roles/delves/fights.

Second - What you are describing is a worst-case scenario that assumes that there are no actual creative players.

But still, if that's how it played out then it's a win - In that sense, the non-creative folks would be quickly bored and leave, and then the game would be better for it.

I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if any of this was mentioned before.

TSW lacks classes. Yes it has FotM, cookie cutter builds that a lot of people use. Yes those people consider you clueless or noobs or scrubs if you don't use them. Yes those people are idiots. (Ok, "idiots" may be a bit harsh, but they are still wrong about how necessary those cookie cutters are for success.)

The thing is, it doesn't matter if there are FotM builds because there will always be FotM builds no matter what you do. Look at WoW. Always had hard classes that shared nothing. If you weren't a fire mage or a shadow priest or a survival hunter or some other specific build, you were a scrub. They all had their day.

As long as there is even the slightest variation in possible combinations of skills, there will be somebody out there quantifying it, charting it, spamming it and arbitrarily decreeing that anything not at the very top is something that should not be sullying your action bar with it's presence.

But that doesn't matter. It does not mean having an open skill system is a bad idea or that nobody should try to build one or even that the min/maxers are right. An open system is what allows for creativity, RP, experimentation and versatility. And at the end of the day, the only people that really care about FotM builds are the people that use FotM builds exclusively.

I would like classes to be removed, but just adding more skill lines to "blur" the lines some more would achieve similar results. I would like to see classes mainly differ from just their passives and the visual flare(dk with their wings, etc). I'm hoping that this is one of the goals of the spellcrafting system.

newtinmpls wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

let me put it this way. everyone advocating for no classes are actually advocating for no freedom in choice with the way they build their character, because everyone would simply choose the best options for each role and be done with it, there would be little to no choice at all, MUCH less then we have even now.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

First - I have more faith in the creativity of the various skill lines, and the needs of the various roles/delves/fights.

Second - What you are describing is a worst-case scenario that assumes that there are no actual creative players.

But still, if that's how it played out then it's a win - In that sense, the non-creative folks would be quickly bored and leave, and then the game would be better for it.

How in the world is it a win for the game in any form if by changing the game we have people walk away from it? Sorry this is a MMO that needs as many people playing as possible for it to stay healthy and alive. It needs both the creative that don't care about their performance so long as they clear content and the "non creative" that care about their timing, dmg, spreadsheets, etc.

Not to mention that no matter how much faith you have in the skill lines the truth is with or without classes the various skill lines will only have synergy with specific other skills or skill lines. That synergy is what limits and pushes out fotm as much as anything. Right now, with classes, we are spread out between the four classes and what works for each role and concept and have a best spec for each. without that we will just have roles and what combination of skills allows for the absolute best synergy and that will end up the cookie cutter builds.

Not saying that removing classes would not allow the few people here and there that just don't care or really just want their own thing to have that. But it will limit what we see on the battleground when you have people flocking to one of the few "top" players websites to see what comes out on top.

Also for the chap that pointed out that wow has always had fotm classes and has hard class options... This is true but that would be just as true without the classes. The difference is that fotm is spread out for each individual class and the role they want to play keeping the variety up to a minimum of the amount of classes available and the different roles each class can play as. thats a larger number of variety then just the amount of roles in the game.