Get rid of classes?

golfer.dub17_ESO

The difference is that fotm is spread out for each individual class and the role they want to play keeping the variety up to a minimum of the amount of classes available and the different roles each class can play as. thats a larger number of variety then just the amount of roles in the game.

No, there's no difference.

If some classes are underpowered, people won't pick them, just like if some skills are underpowered, people won't pick them.

Variety is dependent on balance.

renton1x1x1

again , really?

dodgehopper_ESO

theweakminded wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

Yes get rid of classes, i have always made my own character in Morrowind and Oblivion, and not use the class presets.. Elder Scrolls is about freedom and make it your own!!!

too bad this is NOT a single palyer game, it is an MMO, and thus as to think about balance, something the single players NEVER cared about and it showed (no reason NOT to wear heavy armor, use magic, stealth, strong weapons, etc all at once, no mechanical reason to focus ONLY on a type of class, you could do everything)

To bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game and we the Elder Scrolls players are far more important to this game than mmo players, so if we say we want no classes then its up to the devs to make it happen and FYI this is an Open World Online RPG not an mmo!

Careful your entitlement complex is showing... this is an MMORPG. It is listed as such, regardless of what -you- wish to call it. Additionally, if you really want it to be an elder scrolls game, make sure the devs remove any spell not in previous games because this game came first on the timeline, so spells developed later than Arena do not exist. Also set bonuses need removed. Set gear bonuses aren't a part of the TES games...

Edit: correcting autocorrect

This is not entirely true. The Dragonborn expansion of Skyrim had set gear. Deathbrand Armor, Ahzidal's Armor, etc.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

I vote no.
Skyrim was the first to let you be everything, and I hated it.
Morrowind/ Oblivion had class system and limited your overall effectiveness outside of your specialty. They, along with ESO, still provide the option to be whatever you please and switch at will but you are less effective outside of your specialties.

I think this makes sense. Plus it gives you reason to create new characters, join new alliances, and make new friends. Why would I ever create another character if my main could do everything already?

Class systems are a common RPG element, not just MMOs. And the ES feels a lot better when you have to actually plan your build and character.

WrathOfRegicide

I'd like to see classes removed, I hate being restricted into 3 class skill lines and not being able to decide what magic skills I would like to use; Although I can't see this happening because it would take so much effort for ZoS to balance everything and redesigning most every aspect of the combat and skills.

PKMN12

WrathOfRegicide wrote: »

I'd like to see classes removed, I hate being restricted into 3 class skill lines and not being able to decide what magic skills I would like to use; Although I can't see this happening because it would take so much effort for ZoS to balance everything and redesigning most every aspect of the combat and skills.

it would not just be hard, but completely impossible

sagitter

Classes are essential , like races, contribute to the diversity of the builds. Without classes or races the game will be monotous and most of players will choose the fotm builds. Best thing to contribute in the future to the diversity of playstyles is adding more classes and new abilities unlocked for all, spellcrafting could help much. Think a moment before jumping to the conclusions.

sagitter

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

The difference is that fotm is spread out for each individual class and the role they want to play keeping the variety up to a minimum of the amount of classes available and the different roles each class can play as. thats a larger number of variety then just the amount of roles in the game.

No, there's no difference.

If some classes are underpowered, people won't pick them, just like if some skills are underpowered, people won't pick them.

Variety is dependent on balance.

Yes there is, don't be blind, look at sypher builds he can own ppl in pvp with every classes.

Amsel_McKay

PKMN12 wrote: »

let me put it this way. everyone advocating for no classes are actually advocating for no freedom in choice with the way they build their character, because everyone would simply choose the best options for each role and be done with it, there would be little to no choice at all, MUCH less then we have even now.

Lets take Skyrim for example, if it was an MMO, here is what would happen:

1. everyone would be in light armor, they are 100%, no questions asked better then robes or heavy armor no matter your role. You can increase their armor rating to max, and with the stamina effects in its tree heavy armor is now made usless. You can enchant whatever you find on robes onto the light armor and make it even better, thus making robes/clothing utterless worthless
2. everyone would be using alteration and restoration magic, there would likely be no need for a healer role. no reason not to and it has no negatives
3. destruction magic would NEVER be used as it does not scale with level so it does garbage damage in later levels
4. no one would use a staff, except for MAYBE spells like Mage light or something since they are worthless
5. everyone would have a crossbow, and no one would ever use bows, since corssbows do serious damage.
6. sneak would likely be at least be maxed since there is no reason NO to sneak attack if possible
7. no one would use daggers except for someone who is REALLY good with sneaking around, and even then other one-handed weapons would STILL probably kill anything worthwhile just as fast
8. everyone would be using swords in melee, they have the best weapon specific perk (the critical chance) and the other two are of little help in a battle
9. No one would use any other elemental enchants except for teh Chaos enchant from the DLC because it is the least resisted
10. everyone would have mastery of at LEAST smithing and Enchanting, no reason not to
11. everyone would be a Breton, as Magicka resistance is completely OP, and at that level of resist there is no reason to use any other race.
12. the only standing that would likely be used is Atronoch, for the same reason stated above.
13. everyone would be using Dragonbone weapons, strongest weapons in game.

I could go on at this point, but hopefully i got my poitn across on how limited a fully open TES game would actually be in a Multiplayer enviroment.

Your example using Skyrim shows that either you never played Skyrim or that my choice would be completely different... which also nullifies your point

PKMN12

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

let me put it this way. everyone advocating for no classes are actually advocating for no freedom in choice with the way they build their character, because everyone would simply choose the best options for each role and be done with it, there would be little to no choice at all, MUCH less then we have even now.

Lets take Skyrim for example, if it was an MMO, here is what would happen:

1. everyone would be in light armor, they are 100%, no questions asked better then robes or heavy armor no matter your role. You can increase their armor rating to max, and with the stamina effects in its tree heavy armor is now made usless. You can enchant whatever you find on robes onto the light armor and make it even better, thus making robes/clothing utterless worthless
2. everyone would be using alteration and restoration magic, there would likely be no need for a healer role. no reason not to and it has no negatives
3. destruction magic would NEVER be used as it does not scale with level so it does garbage damage in later levels
4. no one would use a staff, except for MAYBE spells like Mage light or something since they are worthless
5. everyone would have a crossbow, and no one would ever use bows, since corssbows do serious damage.
6. sneak would likely be at least be maxed since there is no reason NO to sneak attack if possible
7. no one would use daggers except for someone who is REALLY good with sneaking around, and even then other one-handed weapons would STILL probably kill anything worthwhile just as fast
8. everyone would be using swords in melee, they have the best weapon specific perk (the critical chance) and the other two are of little help in a battle
9. No one would use any other elemental enchants except for teh Chaos enchant from the DLC because it is the least resisted
10. everyone would have mastery of at LEAST smithing and Enchanting, no reason not to
11. everyone would be a Breton, as Magicka resistance is completely OP, and at that level of resist there is no reason to use any other race.
12. the only standing that would likely be used is Atronoch, for the same reason stated above.
13. everyone would be using Dragonbone weapons, strongest weapons in game.

I could go on at this point, but hopefully i got my poitn across on how limited a fully open TES game would actually be in a Multiplayer enviroment.

Your example using Skyrim shows that either you never played Skyrim or that my choice would be completely different... which also nullifies your point

no, it means you have NEVER seen skyrim from a mechanics standpoint. mechanically, if you were playing to win against other players, my points would ALL be true of someone in an MMO.

pugyourself

This would result in everyone having the same build...the one that is thought to be the strongest. I like the varied combat builds and the tough choices that need to be made in the current system. I'd be sad to see it go.

golfer.dub17_ESO

sagitter wrote: »

Yes there is, don't be blind, look at sypher builds he can own ppl in pvp with every classes.

So an exceptional player couldn't own people with any skill in an open-class system?

Think a moment before jumping to the conclusions.

Listen to your own advice.

People bashing an open-class system using baseless arguments like conjecture of the current system or pre-existing systems ("LIGHT ARMOR IS OP IN SKYRIM SO IT WOULD BE OP HERE" or "EVERYONE WOULD USE GDB AND BOL AND ___" (because obviously we'd keep the same exact skills in such a system)).

I'm done, you people just don't get it.

Gyudan

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That ship has sailed and sunk.
They won't redo their game to this extent, so there is little point in dreaming about a classless TES game at this point. Maybe in ESO-2, coming out around 2025...

Maybe you should check your client version. On mine it says ESO 2.0

Amsel_McKay

You all assume to much... an MMO does not only = PvP. I know this is hard to believe for many, but some people dont play games for them to be easy and play the "best builds". Yes when I was younger and had the best Cleric in EQ I cared about how big my eP*en was and the item that was 2 hp better then another. Then I got older and realized I like to play games to have fun.

If you assume that every player would play the same build because its "the best" you are wrong, Its like MtG people have sets that are supposed to be unbeatable then someone makes a deck that can beat it.

Opening the class system would make for interesting hybrids, I have wanted the healing line from temp, Siphon line from NB and pet line from Sorc to make a EQ necro / mage build. I want a heavy armored cleric build that uses S&B and mace. How about a true glass canon build with DK / Sorc fire lines...

Class creation is the start of the narrowness of ESO, as soon as you are dumped into the world you are confined to a 3-5 level circle on the map. ESO was the most likely game to have an open class MMO because you can get rid of the 4 classes now and not much would change, where most other MMOs are really restrictive on classes.

Keron

Thread tl/dr.

What will happen in case free skill line choice is implemented:

PvE: 3 FotM styles, 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dd. 5% of players try to be "different" and complain on the forums that no one takes them to difficult content.

PvP: 2 FotM styles: 1 baiter (tanky), 1 killer (glass cannon). 10% of players play combat healers and complain on the forums that they feel overused. Another 5% again try to be different and make sure that the amount of nerf-threads doesn't get smaller than it is now.

gl&hf

PKMN12

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

You all assume to much... an MMO does not only = PvP. I know this is hard to believe for many, but some people dont play games for them to be easy and play the "best builds". Yes when I was younger and had the best Cleric in EQ I cared about how big my eP*en was and the item that was 2 hp better then another. Then I got older and realized I like to play games to have fun.

If you assume that every player would play the same build because its "the best" you are wrong, Its like MtG people have sets that are supposed to be unbeatable then someone makes a deck that can beat it.

Opening the class system would make for interesting hybrids, I have wanted the healing line from temp, Siphon line from NB and pet line from Sorc to make a EQ necro / mage build. I want a heavy armored cleric build that uses S&B and mace. How about a true glass canon build with DK / Sorc fire lines...

Class creation is the start of the narrowness of ESO, as soon as you are dumped into the world you are confined to a 3-5 level circle on the map. ESO was the most likely game to have an open class MMO because you can get rid of the 4 classes now and not much would change, where most other MMOs are really restrictive on classes.

you do not know much about MMOs, do you?

Also, about MTG, actually, if you know ANYTING About the game, you would know, 9/10 you can look at a tournament and A LOT of them will be using slight variations of the same 3 decks or so.

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

You all assume to much... an MMO does not only = PvP. I know this is hard to believe for many, but some people dont play games for them to be easy and play the "best builds". Yes when I was younger and had the best Cleric in EQ I cared about how big my eP*en was and the item that was 2 hp better then another. Then I got older and realized I like to play games to have fun.

If you assume that every player would play the same build because its "the best" you are wrong, Its like MtG people have sets that are supposed to be unbeatable then someone makes a deck that can beat it.

Opening the class system would make for interesting hybrids, I have wanted the healing line from temp, Siphon line from NB and pet line from Sorc to make a EQ necro / mage build. I want a heavy armored cleric build that uses S&B and mace. How about a true glass canon build with DK / Sorc fire lines...

Class creation is the start of the narrowness of ESO, as soon as you are dumped into the world you are confined to a 3-5 level circle on the map. ESO was the most likely game to have an open class MMO because you can get rid of the 4 classes now and not much would change, where most other MMOs are really restrictive on classes.

We have made mention that there are a people out there that just dont care. like yourself...

But let me make this point clearly to you... Min/Max builds are not a PVP thing. They are a MMO thing in general. Heck it was during PVE that i saw the first instance where not having a optimal build = kicked. (something i have never yet experienced in pvp). The truth is PVE is at times even more competitive then PVP because you end up fighting the clock, other players, etc for clearing content first, the fastest, or you saw someone else do it in 15 minutes instead of 30 and now you must.

Clearly you don't care about that but there are far far more that either through actually wanting to compete or more then likely just getting lost in the creation process want a quick template that do.

newtinmpls

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

I vote no.
Skyrim was the first to let you be everything, and I hated it.
Morrowind/ Oblivion had class system and limited your overall effectiveness outside of your specialty..

Morrowind's "classes" (including the option to design your own, which was my preference) gave you a boost to starting skills, and a boost to which ones progressed most easily. Now that I think about it it's pretty similar to the "gain XP" racial perks in ESO.

But in Morrowind, you were not limited by your class, you could still max out everything if you wanted to - and if you used it. That was something I really liked; that you got experience for what you actually DID. I don't really care for the whole option to switch bars 'to train', in ESO. But that's me.

Eliteseraph

Wow...the results of this poll surprise me. Elder Scrolls has never had classes. I guess MMO players really are unable to think outside the box.

timidobserver

Eliteseraph wrote: »

Wow...the results of this poll surprise me. Elder Scrolls has never had classes. I guess MMO players really are unable to think outside the box.

Time wasted on removing classes would be time spent not developing content. A classless system might have been a nice way to launch the game, but I don't really need them to waste time revamping it into that.

They already have a hard enough time balancing the game right now as it is. I'd hate to try to see them balance the guy spamming standard of might, talons, blazing shield, breath of life, biting jabs, conjured ward, bolt escape, and dark cloak all on one character.

Huggernaut

Hell yes.

All of my favorite games since the mid-90s have been skill-based games.

The main reason you have so many no's in that poll on the first page is simply because people are scared. They aren't used to the freedom a well designed skill based system affords the player.

I mean, we already have the foundation for a skill based game. ie: having to level what you want to use, and the more you use something, the better you get at it.

We are still stuck with the classes though.

Anyone interested in what a REALLY well done skill based game looks like, check out Asherons Call 1. Been around since 1999 (came out a few months after Everquest 1), still has a subscription model after what ... 16 years? Not many games can boast that kinda longevity

Really, it wouldn't take a lot to alter the system we have to be entirely skill based. We would however, need to increase the # of hotbar slots available to us. At least to 8 slots (so +3 to what we have currently).

Honestly, why wouldn't you want the ultimate freedom and flexibility to make your character any way you see fit? Why do we need to be pigeon holed into playing the same classes, in every game?

Sure, the holy trinity will still exist (tank / dps / healer), but people in those roles will have considerably more to choose from. Why is this a bad thing?

Diversity, it's not a dirty word people!

Cheers.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO

Eso should have been all about 100% freedom, from start now we will never see this / as classes

newtinmpls

I like the idea. I'm not saying that ZoS will ever do it, but I like it.

AngryNord

Eliteseraph wrote: »

Elder Scrolls has never had classes.

?????
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

Donum-Dei

AngryNord wrote: »

?????
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

I always wondered why ESO din't adopt the specifications and the attributes in depth as the ES games did. Even though they are still optional in the previous games. You know how rich would have been if they have add most of the classes from the previous games?


Honestly having classes and attributes in those classes is important to keep everything in order and equally in perspective. I just which there where more classes like all of them did.

Rox83

I think class choice should've happened once you're in game, like every main ES previously.

PKMN12

DanniBoi wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

?????
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

I always wondered why ESO din't adopt the specifications and the attributes in depth as the ES games did. Even though they are still optional in the previous games. You know how rich would have been if they have add most of the classes from the previous games?


Honestly having classes and attributes in those classes is important to keep everything in order and equally in perspective. I just which there where more classes like all of them did.

*sigh*

Because its an MMO, that amount of openess does not work in MMOs. All you would have at endgame are the same 3-4 builds as everyone else. You might have 5-10% of the population not using these builds and they would either be VERY niche, or simply outright worse then those builds.

This is a fact, this WOULD happen with such an open system. Do not believe me? then why does it happen in EVERY MMORPG that has such a system.

Wintersage

PKMN12 wrote: »

Because its an MMO, that amount of openess does not work in MMOs.

Of course it can. It has. And will again in the future.

All you would have at endgame

What endgame?

are the same 3-4 builds as everyone else.

Wonder what that would be like. Oh. Wait. I don't have to wonder, do I?

You might have 5-10% of the population not using these builds and they would either be VERY niche, or simply outright worse then those builds.

Oh, I'm not advocating opening every skill line to every player at all times. I'm in the "choose 3 at start" camp. Which means as skill lines get tweaked along the way, all those FoTM players would have to roll themselves up a new toon to keep their "edge".

I can't say I wouldn't enjoy the screams of pure frustration from them about that, either.

This is a fact, this WOULD happen with such an open system. Do not believe me? then why does it happen in EVERY MMORPG that has such a system.

Perhaps, but it's also a fact that it happens in every class based system, too. Including this one. And I think it's downright silly to penalize players from being able to play how they want with un-ES-like restrictions that don't even work to inhibit your feared cookie-cutter players.

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO

PKMN12 wrote: »

DanniBoi wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

?????
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

I always wondered why ESO din't adopt the specifications and the attributes in depth as the ES games did. Even though they are still optional in the previous games. You know how rich would have been if they have add most of the classes from the previous games?


Honestly having classes and attributes in those classes is important to keep everything in order and equally in perspective. I just which there where more classes like all of them did.

*sigh*

Because its an MMO, that amount of openess does not work in MMOs. All you would have at endgame are the same 3-4 builds as everyone else. You might have 5-10% of the population not using these builds and they would either be VERY niche, or simply outright worse then those builds.

This is a fact, this WOULD happen with such an open system. Do not believe me? then why does it happen in EVERY MMORPG that has such a system.

Actually i wish we did have some more of those classes available to us. That said im also fine with what we have

PKMN12

Wintersage wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Because its an MMO, that amount of openess does not work in MMOs.

Of course it can. It has. And will again in the future.

All you would have at endgame

What endgame?

are the same 3-4 builds as everyone else.

Wonder what that would be like. Oh. Wait. I don't have to wonder, do I?

You might have 5-10% of the population not using these builds and they would either be VERY niche, or simply outright worse then those builds.

Oh, I'm not advocating opening every skill line to every player at all times. I'm in the "choose 3 at start" camp. Which means as skill lines get tweaked along the way, all those FoTM players would have to roll themselves up a new toon to keep their "edge".

I can't say I wouldn't enjoy the screams of pure frustration from them about that, either.

This is a fact, this WOULD happen with such an open system. Do not believe me? then why does it happen in EVERY MMORPG that has such a system.

Perhaps, but it's also a fact that it happens in every class based system, too. Including this one. And I think it's downright silly to penalize players from being able to play how they want with un-ES-like restrictions that don't even work to inhibit your feared cookie-cutter players.

your funny, because you clearly have NEVER play an MMO at endgame in your life.

Name ONE decently succesful MMORPG that has an open skill system where people do NOT just choose the one or two builds for each role that works

PVP and trials, whether you want that to be endgame or not, does not matter, as it is the endgame for ALL MMOs

the problem STILL persists because there is still no lock behind it. for a healer, everyone would be choosing the sorc lightning tree for bolt escape and the Templar healing tree for example, that is a fact and you know it.

with a class based system, there is still a choice of what class to choose, each having the "FOTM" build in an open skill system, there are only about 3-4 best builds IN ALL.