Get rid of classes?

Donum-Dei · April 2015

@PKMN12 It is an open world mmo rpg it is, the fact that there are zones/locations with more high enemies that can kill you, it doesn't give up the fact that it is not a open world mmo rpg. And the fact that it is and MMO it doesn't compute to anything man.

AngryNord · April 2015

Argoniawind wrote: »

Too bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game

And with the exception of Skyrim, and the spin-off Redguard, all TES games have classes (actually, even Skyrim has classes, but only for NPCs)

PKMN12 · April 2015

AngryNord wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

Too bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game

And with the exception of Skyrim, and the spin-off Redguard, all TES games have classes (actually, even Skyrim has classes, but only for NPCs)

heck Arena had hardlined class entirely, where you were directly limited on what you can do with a class

BBSooner · April 2015

The decision to have or not have classes is one that was set in stone years ago. It's a moot point, ESO leans more towards the earlier entries of TES than towards Skyrim in this regard. It's part of the game now. Surely, being a year since PC release, a month from console release, and years since when the decision to set the system in stone that its ... finally ... time to just 'deal' and stop reminiscing about Skyrim.

Argoniawind · April 2015

AngryNord wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

Too bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game

And with the exception of Skyrim, and the spin-off Redguard, all TES games have classes (actually, even Skyrim has classes, but only for NPCs)

Morrowind and Oblivion have classes but it was optional, I chose to create my own guy from scratch!

Donum-Dei · April 2015

@PKMN12 Actually I agree with him. And I agree with you. (but calling troll names to ppl is not fun) Yes I do agree that is an MMO but is a open world MMO / MMO open world, it doesn't matter what words you place first. This game has the potential to be and have diversity in many options (on the topic we are talking about). It is up to the devs to realize it and step up. (in which case I know they know, but I don't know what is going on)

This game feels more as a rpg than an MMO, this game is meant to be play as an rpg MMO more than a MMO rpg, the fact that it doesn't matter if you play with people/friends or not, it doesn't take the other fact that this game is either of those.

PKMN12 · April 2015

DanniBoi wrote: »

@PKMN12 Actually I agree with him. And I agree with you. (but calling troll names to ppl is not fun) Yes I do agree that is an MMO but is a open world MMO / MMO open world, it doesn't matter what words you place first. This game has the potential to be and have diversity in many options (on the topic we are talking about). It is up to the devs to realize it and step up.

This game feels more as a rpg than an MMO, this game is meant to be play as an rpg MMO more than a MMO rpg, the fact that it doesn't matter if you play with people/friends or not, it doesn't take the other fact that this game is either of those.

you can Solo in EVERY mmo out there, it is a major pat of every MMO. Also, if you and him were correct then why does NO ONE and NOTHING call it that, every single source, including the devs call it an MMORPG, not online RPG, not RPGMMO, EVERYONE and EVERYTHING calls it an MMORPG

Donum-Dei · April 2015

@PKMN12 Man what are you getting to? what you are looking for? Many people feel like this game is a mmo and other that it is but it is not, just because you can solo almost in most of the occasions, the fact many ppl say it is, it doesn't mean nothing when you experience it in your way. That is why this game is more like the original ES games before it, because is focus also as a rpg more than mmo.

It is call mmo because it has been made to be play as such, but it does feel and stand on his own as a rpg mmo. Because of how you can play this game (as I state it before).

Anyways it does have the potential to be also has the games before it. With the options for the skills

PKMN12 · April 2015

let me put it this way. everyone advocating for no classes are actually advocating for no freedom in choice with the way they build their character, because everyone would simply choose the best options for each role and be done with it, there would be little to no choice at all, MUCH less then we have even now.

Lets take Skyrim for example, if it was an MMO, here is what would happen:

1. everyone would be in light armor, they are 100%, no questions asked better then robes or heavy armor no matter your role. You can increase their armor rating to max, and with the stamina effects in its tree heavy armor is now made usless. You can enchant whatever you find on robes onto the light armor and make it even better, thus making robes/clothing utterless worthless
2. everyone would be using alteration and restoration magic, there would likely be no need for a healer role. no reason not to and it has no negatives
3. destruction magic would NEVER be used as it does not scale with level so it does garbage damage in later levels
4. no one would use a staff, except for MAYBE spells like Mage light or something since they are worthless
5. everyone would have a crossbow, and no one would ever use bows, since corssbows do serious damage.
6. sneak would likely be at least be maxed since there is no reason NO to sneak attack if possible
7. no one would use daggers except for someone who is REALLY good with sneaking around, and even then other one-handed weapons would STILL probably kill anything worthwhile just as fast
8. everyone would be using swords in melee, they have the best weapon specific perk (the critical chance) and the other two are of little help in a battle
9. No one would use any other elemental enchants except for teh Chaos enchant from the DLC because it is the least resisted
10. everyone would have mastery of at LEAST smithing and Enchanting, no reason not to
11. everyone would be a Breton, as Magicka resistance is completely OP, and at that level of resist there is no reason to use any other race.
12. the only standing that would likely be used is Atronoch, for the same reason stated above.
13. everyone would be using Dragonbone weapons, strongest weapons in game.

I could go on at this point, but hopefully i got my poitn across on how limited a fully open TES game would actually be in a Multiplayer enviroment.

Sylvyr · April 2015

Spellcrafting.

PKMN12 · April 2015

Sylvyr wrote: »

Spellcrafting.

anyone with ANY knowledge of MMOs knows that if it is ever added, it will either be worthless or you will be FORCED To use it to stand a chance in PVP.

TazerReloaded · April 2015

I actually want MORE classes, because it would increase diversity and replay value.

More different spells means more variety in builds and more interesting PvP and PvE synergies. With the system we have now I have absolutely no reason to level another character, because 90% of the playstyle can be done with my current one, grinding levels is tedious and I had to complete every single quest there is to get VR14 anyway.

Remove some weapon abilities except for 2-3 basic spells and passives. This will destroy the "play the way you want" concept (which was honestly never actually there), but also create much more diversity and replay value for everyone, newbies as well as experienced players (especially when the V-ranks are removed).

Just my suggestion

AlnilamE · April 2015

Argoniawind wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

Yes get rid of classes, i have always made my own character in Morrowind and Oblivion, and not use the class presets.. Elder Scrolls is about freedom and make it your own!!!

too bad this is NOT a single palyer game, it is an MMO, and thus as to think about balance, something the single players NEVER cared about and it showed (no reason NOT to wear heavy armor, use magic, stealth, strong weapons, etc all at once, no mechanical reason to focus ONLY on a type of class, you could do everything)

To bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game and we the Elder Scrolls players are far more important to this game than mmo players, so if we say we want no classes then its up to the devs to make it happen and FYI this is an Open World Online RPG not an mmo!

Yay! Another TES player that knows what all other TES players want! Welcome to the Forums!

I'm a TES player too. This is my first MMO and I like the classes just fine and want them to stay.

Thank you and have a wonderful day! :-)

Argoniawind · April 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

Yes get rid of classes, i have always made my own character in Morrowind and Oblivion, and not use the class presets.. Elder Scrolls is about freedom and make it your own!!!

too bad this is NOT a single palyer game, it is an MMO, and thus as to think about balance, something the single players NEVER cared about and it showed (no reason NOT to wear heavy armor, use magic, stealth, strong weapons, etc all at once, no mechanical reason to focus ONLY on a type of class, you could do everything)

To bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game and we the Elder Scrolls players are far more important to this game than mmo players, so if we say we want no classes then its up to the devs to make it happen and FYI this is an Open World Online RPG not an mmo!

Yay! Another TES player that knows what all other TES players want! Welcome to the Forums!

I'm a TES player too. This is my first MMO and I like the classes just fine and want them to stay.

Thank you and have a wonderful day! :-)

I should be welcoming you to the forums, I have been here since July 2013, cheers!

Chuggernaut · April 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That ship has sailed and sunk.
They won't redo their game to this extent, so there is little point in dreaming about a classless TES game at this point. Maybe in ESO-2, coming out around 2025...

lol thats what they said before the CU and NGE for SWG. Never underestimate how much a dev will change his game in the quest for profits.

neueregel · April 2015

If I get rid of my glasses, I cant read very well... wait... where are my glasses?

olaf_fairshield · April 2015

Let us keep this thread an open discussion about the pros and cons of a classless ESO, please. I agree to make a supreme DPS only handful of skills would be used, but that's just it. Without classes and the freedom to choose from any and all skills, there would be limitless combinations of "supreme DPS/Tank/Heal" skill combinations. Devs could add skills to the game freely without having to figure out how to tie it into one of the classes or making an entirely new class.

And oh what they could do with such freedom! Quests that reward you with skills! Lorebooks that are only found in the most hardcore of dungeons which hold unspeakable power (think rare ultimates!)

Perhaps maybe in the future the Oblivion plane of Hermaeus Mora being available for exploration. The Daedric prince of knowledge, His vast collection free for the plundering to those brave or foolish enough to venture within!

bloodenragedb14_ESO · April 2015

skyrim was really the only classless TES game, which i didnt really like. Everythign about skyrim was 'dumbed' down in comparison to the other games. Used to, when you started a character in say morrowind or oblivion, you would choose main and side abilities, these would level up at a far quicker rate than other skills. The stats on the former games were far more complicated as well.

I miss the complication, its what made the series great. But the recent universal trend of dumbing down games so [snip] people can play them really ticks me off.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Wintersage · April 2015

You know what's really telling that all of you except perhaps @Argoniawind missed? 37% yes vs. 62% no. (No. Not my math.)

During beta and thereafter, various and numerous polls were posted on this very subject. And it was overwhelmingly voted on to get rid of classes. That's what the majority of users wanted. Skill-based, not class-based.

For that authentic ES feel. Or, phrased another way: "Play how you want".

But as time went on, the numbers of people wanting skill-based dropped off. And here we find ourselves with this feeble offering, where 62% of you vote for classes. All 4 of them.

Hmm. Where'd everyone else go?

That's cool, though. I'm sure it's coincidence that the game is losing players hand over fist too, amirite? I'm absolutely positive that all the console players expecting Skyrim Online are going to stick around and pay big money for mounts and wedding dresses. That will definitely save this game from the trash heap that looms in it's future.

This, right here, is why this game is dying. It's not the lag. It's not the bugs. It's not the payment model. It's the fact that it doesn't feel like an ES game. And if ZOS had a single solitary lick of sense, they'd have spent far more time catering to the ES franchise fans, rather than the MMO genre fans. There's a lot more MMOs out there for you to worship at the altar of your beloved holy trinity.

ES fans had only this.

And whatever payment model ZOS adopts, past, present or future, ES fans would've payed in blood to be able to play a real ES online game. And we would not now find ourselves with the lack of numbers the playerbase reflects.

Donum-Dei · April 2015

I am with you on that thought @bloodenragedb14_ESO in this game I have to download a add on to hide the aim sight so I can have a little bit of challenge including the glow that appears when you lock the enemies. So I can have some kind of challenge.

@olaf_fairshield This can go one way and one way only,--> add more new skill in the classes we have alreadyy. Therefore we will have more options to make and combine, this game for me, my perspective it's still a baby and this baby (lol right, anyway) can grow up to be a great experience with a bunch of skill sets under each class that there is.

Or perhaps they are thinking in adding new classes that could go kind of good in a way, but for people that really don't like to "re roll" new characters for classes (if there is any) it will be wised to add new skill sets in the previous classes.

Argoniawind · April 2015

Wintersage wrote: »

You know what's really telling that all of you except perhaps @Argoniawind missed? 37% yes vs. 62% no. (No. Not my math.)

During beta and thereafter, various and numerous polls were posted on this very subject. And it was overwhelmingly voted on to get rid of classes. That's what the majority of users wanted. Skill-based, not class-based.

For that authentic ES feel. Or, phrased another way: "Play how you want".

But as time went on, the numbers of people wanting skill-based dropped off. And here we find ourselves with this feeble offering, where 62% of you vote for classes. All 4 of them.

Hmm. Where'd everyone else go?

That's cool, though. I'm sure it's coincidence that the game is losing players hand over fist too, amirite? I'm absolutely positive that all the console players expecting Skyrim Online are going to stick around and pay big money for mounts and wedding dresses. That will definitely save this game from the trash heap that looms in it's future.

This, right here, is why this game is dying. It's not the lag. It's not the bugs. It's not the payment model. It's the fact that it doesn't feel like an ES game. And if ZOS had a single solitary lick of sense, they'd have spent far more time catering to the ES franchise fans, rather than the MMO genre fans. There's a lot more MMOs out there for you to worship at the altar of your beloved holy trinity.

ES fans had only this.

And whatever payment model ZOS adopts, past, present or future, ES fans would've payed in blood to be able to play a real ES online game. And we would not now find ourselves with the lack of numbers the playerbase reflects.

Perfectly said!!!

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO · April 2015

Argoniawind wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

Yes get rid of classes, i have always made my own character in Morrowind and Oblivion, and not use the class presets.. Elder Scrolls is about freedom and make it your own!!!

too bad this is NOT a single palyer game, it is an MMO, and thus as to think about balance, something the single players NEVER cared about and it showed (no reason NOT to wear heavy armor, use magic, stealth, strong weapons, etc all at once, no mechanical reason to focus ONLY on a type of class, you could do everything)

To bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game and we the Elder Scrolls players are far more important to this game than mmo players, so if we say we want no classes then its up to the devs to make it happen and FYI this is an Open World Online RPG not an mmo!

Just because this is a Elder Scrolls game does not make you more important then anyone else. This Elder Scrolls Online not ES6 and as such is just as much a mmo as it is a Elder scrolls game. Both segments of the community are just as important. And if push came to shove in the end the MMO community would end up ahead as this is a multiplayer focused game. Not only that this game is a massive multiplayer online role playing game not whatever you think a Open world online rpg is in opposed to that...

Dropping classes in mmo's leads to very few builds based on min maxing abilities for certain roles. We get that now but diversity means that there is a min max for each class in each roll (minimum of 12) while no class typically will be around the 3-6 min maxed specs. Unlike Elder Scrolls where you are the only person so a variety of specs doesnt really mean anything because.... in all honesty.... there is no one else in your world to compete against.... in a online game it really turns the game into a very dull and lackluster world. i look at TSW where we really had maybe 6-7 min maxed specs tops and shudder to think of that coming here.

But really this is a mmo, not a single player rpg, and no matter how badly you wish that wasnt true its not going to change. heck you can go out of your way to make this as single player as you want and ignore that there are hundreds of people around you but its not going to change what this game is at its core.

RainfeatherUK · April 2015

The removal of classes would completely destroy diversity in the game. Resulting in an even narrower band of fotm skills. I wish people would stop making these stupid threads, yawn.

Argoniawind · April 2015

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

skyrim was really the only classless TES game, which i didnt really like. Everythign about skyrim was 'dumbed' down in comparison to the other games. Used to, when you started a character in say morrowind or oblivion, you would choose main and side abilities, these would level up at a far quicker rate than other skills. The stats on the former games were far more complicated as well.

I miss the complication, its what made the series great. But the recent universal trend of dumbing down games so STUPID people can play them really ticks me off.

This is the way I feel as well!!!

PKMN12 · April 2015

@Wintersage @Argoniawind Guess what, it is an MMO, the moment you bring other players into the fold means all bets are off and the open skill system starts failing. the moment you bring competition into a game is the moment that "freedom" to chose your way of playing is not really true, no matter how much you spit it out and scream it. people will ALWAYS choose the best options if it means a better chance of winning, NO excpetions to this.

You want to know what would happen if this was using a system like skyrim? here are some examples:

1. everyone would be using Light armor, robes are worhtless garbage, and heavy armor ways more with no advantage, since enchanting and smithing allow you to take the advantages of both and also have teh skill tree of Light armor with the stamina buffs
2. everyone would be using restoration, Alteration, Sneak, and the crafting skills, no reason not to as there is no disadvantage
3. no one would use destruction magic, as it does basically no damage
4. everyone would have a crossbow as it does WAY more damage then bows and has armor piercing
5. no one would be a vampire or werewolf as they only hurt you in teh vanilla game with no REAL advantages
6. bretons would be the only race worth using thanks to the magicka resist racial which is FAR, FAR superior mechanics wise then any of the others

I can list A LOT more things, i actually has a list of about 15 things somewhere on this forum somewhere.

there Would be no "freedom" at all.

Argoniawind · April 2015

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

Yes get rid of classes, i have always made my own character in Morrowind and Oblivion, and not use the class presets.. Elder Scrolls is about freedom and make it your own!!!

too bad this is NOT a single palyer game, it is an MMO, and thus as to think about balance, something the single players NEVER cared about and it showed (no reason NOT to wear heavy armor, use magic, stealth, strong weapons, etc all at once, no mechanical reason to focus ONLY on a type of class, you could do everything)

To bad but this is an Elder Scrolls game and we the Elder Scrolls players are far more important to this game than mmo players, so if we say we want no classes then its up to the devs to make it happen and FYI this is an Open World Online RPG not an mmo!

Just because this is a Elder Scrolls game does not make you more important then anyone else. This Elder Scrolls Online not ES6 and as such is just as much a mmo as it is a Elder scrolls game. Both segments of the community are just as important. And if push came to shove in the end the MMO community would end up ahead as this is a multiplayer focused game. Not only that this game is a massive multiplayer online role playing game not whatever you think a Open world online rpg is in opposed to that...

Dropping classes in mmo's leads to very few builds based on min maxing abilities for certain roles. We get that now but diversity means that there is a min max for each class in each roll (minimum of 12) while no class typically will be around the 3-6 min maxed specs. Unlike Elder Scrolls where you are the only person so a variety of specs doesnt really mean anything because.... in all honesty.... there is no one else in your world to compete against.... in a online game it really turns the game into a very dull and lackluster world. i look at TSW where we really had maybe 6-7 min maxed specs tops and shudder to think of that coming here.

But really this is a mmo, not a single player rpg, and no matter how badly you wish that wasnt true its not going to change. heck you can go out of your way to make this as single player as you want and ignore that there are hundreds of people around you but its not going to change what this game is at its core.

See your seeing all this from an mmo players perspective so naturally your gonna feel that way, but this is an Elder scrolls game no matter which way you wanna look at it.. Yes I play this game completely solo, and yes unfortunately this game does have mmo elements to it, to of course please the mmo players, they wanted to bring both the elder scrolls fans and the mmo fans together in one big happy place and from a business model that's a double edge sword... So im leaving the pc version behind once this is release to consoles....

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO · April 2015

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

skyrim was really the only classless TES game, which i didnt really like. Everythign about skyrim was 'dumbed' down in comparison to the other games. Used to, when you started a character in say morrowind or oblivion, you would choose main and side abilities, these would level up at a far quicker rate than other skills. The stats on the former games were far more complicated as well.

I miss the complication, its what made the series great. But the recent universal trend of dumbing down games so STUPID people can play them really ticks me off.

i totally agree and had completely forgotten about the initial start up in morrowind and oblivion. i haven't had my xbox 360 in years (the console i played those on yes i am a console player mostly) but i do remember having to make the hard choice up front of what you wanted to really play as whether it was through a custom build or not and going from there. Especially as the non "class" abilities leveled up sooo slowly.

PKMN12 · April 2015

[quote="Argoniawind;1758877"So im leaving the pc version behind once this is release to consoles....
[/quote]

which will be the EXACT same thing as consoles in terms of being an MMO......................

Wintersage · April 2015

Oh. Where to begin?

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

Just because this is a Elder Scrolls game does not make you more important then anyone else. This Elder Scrolls Online not ES6 and as such is just as much a mmo as it is a Elder scrolls game. Both segments of the community are just as important.

Funny, but I look around me and see a metric butt-ton of other online MMOs, and no other online ES games.

And if push came to shove in the end the MMO community would end up ahead as this is a multiplayer focused game.

So far ahead, in fact, that most of them have moved on to other MMOs.

Not only that this game is a massive multiplayer online role playing game not whatever you think a Open world online rpg is in opposed to that...

Not really sure what to say to this, but thinking of printing it off and hanging it on my fridge.

Dropping classes in mmo's leads to very few builds based on min maxing abilities for certain roles.

Eve wants to have a chat with you.

But rejoice! The very next thing you said I agree with:

We get that now

We most certainly do.

I was going to quote the rest, and reply, but you're talking about specs and numbers that have absolutely no bearing on this particular game (I mean, 12 rolls? wtf is that? You mean roles? Sweetrolls? 12 classes? I don't even....anyways.)

But really this is a mmo, not a single player rpg, and no matter how badly you wish that wasnt true its not going to change. heck you can go out of your way to make this as single player as you want and ignore that there are hundreds of people around you but its not going to change what this game is at its core.

You know what this game is at it's core? Hundreds of people around me. Which is pretty sad, because it used to be thousands. Which is kinda my point.

PKMN12 · April 2015

Wintersage wrote: »

Eve wants to have a chat with you.

Eve is a VERY different type of game, it is like comparing ESO to a sports game.