TehMagnus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

3) ALL of these builds, beginning with Pppontus and ending with... well... everyone else bar few exceptions, TOTALLY RELY on very intelligently allocated Martial Knowledge + Adroitness set (+ Cyrodil's Light rings).

ZoS SHALL nerf and remove this synergy. Because from a design point of view, it's unacceptable to have THE ONE combo to dominate them all. They will nerf it and then suddenly even TehMagnus and Pppontus will lose an additional 2-3k DPS and at this point sorcs will be doing half the damage the other classes do. Because there are other +spell damage sets, but they don't come close with their bonus, nor you can "magically" fit so many +spell damage bonuses on a single character with those other sets any more.

So what shall happen next? That TehMagnus plays a DK / Templar so he won't get affected at all. Pppontus will switch to another of his VR14 characters.

And we, the real sorcs with high emotional attachment to our character, won't have any fall back and we will get the hard bone.

The martial KNowledge cyro adroitness is the op combo for all magicka classses.

If there is an ARMOR/GEAR nerf, all magicka classes will be impacted equally to the point that stamina will be the only way to go in any case to pull DPS. At which point you either keep playing magicka & then you can complain that magicka is weak, not sorc, MAGICKA, or you can switch to stamina with your sorc & be awesome.

One again, not a sorc problem, not everything is about sorc and not everything affects sorcs alone.

So i just looked at your claim of martial knowledge and adroitness sets working as the op combo for Magicka classes, yet they dont completely go together, you can have one or the other 5 peices bonus, but not both at the same time. so correct me if im wrong and missed something, how is this the most op setup, just cause it gives an extra 179 spell power bonus? hardly making it op imo.

TehMagnus wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorc were nerfed,


End thread, your opinions don't matter teh . You can try all you want your points are void / null. Sorcs have been nerfed every patch since this game has came out in some way shape or form., Zos never asked any of the players who play sorcs a damned thing when they did the changes and stealth nerfs. Instead they listened to the WHINERS who whined about sorcs abilities, just like the WHINERS whined about dying to vampires, because they were too ignorant to use fighter guild abilities.
Since ZoS only listens when people whines so in turn, we are going to whine, whine whine, while drinking wine, and whine some more after the glass is empty until we are on par with the other classes. I want every other class to have a 50% additional magicka cost on one of its most important moves, then maybe JUST MAYBE sorcs wont be nerfed, but all clases will be brought on par with Sorcs.

You are just too blind to see the facts. Disintegrate passive Changed from 10% chance to auto kill to 6% chance.

Daedric Curse nerfed to take reduced damage when the target is blocking

Streak nerfed so it no longer disorients now is a useless stun, not to mention Bolt escape and its morphs still have 50% magicka penalty and still only ports us 15 meters. and pray you're not streaking down a hill to take that unmitigated fall damage.

Do nightblades get a 50% increased Magicka Cost when they spam cloak? No

Do Templars get a 50% Increased Magicka Cost when they spam their heals? No


Do Dragon Knights get a 50% increased magicka cost when they spam reflect? No
(Lets not forget about dragons blood spam either )

You name me one other class that ZoS has slapped on a 50% increased Magicka Cost on to one of their most crucial defensive abilities.

I completely agree about the increased magicka cost. Maybe at one time it was considered fair, but I think it's time Bolt Escape returned to it's normal value.

hamon wrote: »

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorc were nerfed,




Do Dragon Knights get a 50% increased magicka cost when they spam reflect? No
(Lets not forget about dragons blood spam either )

You name me one other class that ZoS has slapped on a 50% increased Magicka Cost on to one of their most INSANELY OVERPOWERED defensive abilities.

fixed for ya, i still see sorcs streaking away endlessly from folk in pvp spamming it maybe 10 time to shake off any amount of pursuers with ease... so whining about streak is just lol

Hyperbole much?

Don't think so, I've seen multiple sorcs in PVP since 1.6 just blot escaping away endlessly. Cost seems totally fine.

Except you can't mean endlessly and the cost is significant compared to what it actually does. It's a tactic we employ to stay mobile because we have less defense. I won't cry if it stays the same, but I also think the penalty is somewhat harsh.

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Then why are you complaining? Your class allows you to complete any content in the game and it is strong enough to do so. If you don't compete what do you care if your DPS is a bit lower or even what other people are doing with their classes?

Because the world is not black and white.
One thing is being so dedicated to get crazy for a 1% DPS drop.
One thing, instead, is to be: "happy camper, content with squatting progress and getting carried by my guild mates".

I'd rather prefer avoiding both.

We've already established that Stamina or Magicka sorcs are pulling 1 to 2% less DPS than other classes, so you're not squatting progress. More over you clearly stated you don't compete, what do you care if it takes 10 more seconds to your non competing team as long as you can clear the content?

You have maybe "established" your own sorcs performances, I have yet to see it demonstrated at large. At large, I mean in a statistically relevant way. Not some "try 100 times, post best lucky crits streak screenshot" "evidence".

TehMagnus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

There are no differences, you can kill stuff and complete content. That's all that matters if you're not competing.

Sure, next time I show up in full +health enchanted heavy gear and only use light attacks. I can still complete content!

The same thing can be said for any other class. Once again, an empty argument.

Nope. The other classes don't have to prove anything. They are "known good". Instead the proof of being good is all on the sorcs shoulders, because their record is terrible.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

They aren't. I've seen equivalent and even more from sorcs in my guild regularly. Their intake on this subject is: "Stop wasting time with those people they'll never change their minds" which I'm about to do.

So, why does your guild leader have a certain stance vs sorcs? "I've already spoken to the GM of Hodor who said there is no reason to take Sorcs on trials with the likes of Mistyblood healing and the Negate nerf".
He's another "never changing his mind" too?

I highly doubt you have done so since the GM of Hodor AKA Madini has quit the game, hasn't even logged in for 1.6 and the guild is being ran and managed (for more than 4-5 months) by a 4 officers of which I am one and we all have the same stance on sorcs for 1.6. Edit: And the person who was saying that was me and I was talking about 1.5, not 1.6.

Your lies will get you nowhere.

It's funny, because this is a quote from another player who talked with him. Guess what, "someone" reported his post so it got deleted. I just happen to have had the quote in my clipboard when that post got deleted.

I also have noticed that "someone" is going to HUGE, HUGE lengths to make our posts get removed from this thread. I got at least two and they said nothing special but disagreement.

I guess proactive "report post spam" censorship works to silence who thinks different, am I right?

1. I posted a screenshot with the worst crit imaginable, really 0% frag crits lol.

2. That is what you make of it. If you judge classes instead of players, that is your problem. I don't and as of 1.6 I don't know any top guild who does. Maybe the bad guilds still do, I do not know, but I have not heard any good guild say that they exclude any class at the moment.

3. Have you considered that maybe it simply was a lie? I think @TehMagnus might know his GM better than someone who claims he's talked to him.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Don't think so, I've seen multiple sorcs in PVP since 1.6 just blot escaping away endlessly. Cost seems totally fine.

I agree that the cost is fine, but not for the same reason. Sorcs can build for burst or sustain, just like anyone else. If I put on my MK/ Torug/ Cyrodiil spell damage set, I absolutely can't "bolt escape endlessly," as my regen is awful. If I'm in Seducer and Warlock, I'm a freaking race car. But my burst suffers greatly. I think this tradeoff makes sense.

I think people get confused about other classes when they assume that every build can do everything.

pppontus wrote: »

1. I posted a screenshot with the worst crit imaginable, really 0% frag crits lol.

2. That is what you make of it. If you judge classes instead of players, that is your problem. I don't and as of 1.6 I don't know any top guild who does. Maybe the bad guilds still do, I do not know, but I have not heard any good guild say that they exclude any class at the moment.

3. Have you considered that maybe it simply was a lie? I think @TehMagnus might know his GM better than someone who claims he's talked to him.

1. There's also medium attacks and there's the FTC bug affecting displayed crit %. As of now I would not trust displayed crit %, in fact in my "good runs" I knew in advance I did a lot of damage because I just watched the crits rolling more than watching the crit % on FTC at the end.

2. I am at the middle level yet I have experienced (long ago SIGH!!!! ) the top and the mentality involved. You are totally, perfectly, undeniably RIGHT about player skill > class. Even in WoW. To make this fine reasonment work, though, you have to have a context: good guild, good players, possibily players who start good and strive to become the best. In this context, it truly, really works and it's awesome.
But from middle level to below you get the thick portion of the players (approximately) Gaussian distribution of skills. Quality quickly loses to quantity and to "small people's wisdom".
You follow a totally different path to join a good guild: you will be thoroughly reviewed, some guilds even investigate basing on the wanna be new members applications. Some guilds demand you to be presented (in addition to writing an application) by another guild member who guarantees for you.
Now, enter the thick of the player base, instead: you may get in a guild repyling to a guy promoting his guild on zone chat. You may be invited because you are friend of somebody else, no questions asked. The whole process and the attitude stops being about player quality but about how the average guy does.
Hard to play classes or "known bad" classes get just ignored. Average Joes don't go for player skill, don't go by the individual. Before patch 1.6 they just knew a magicka Templar would not be excellent DPS. A guy willing to play DPS magicka templar would have been kicked.
They just knew that healing Templars were awesome. Anyone stating he'd wanted to heal would have given a spot, no question asked, because "it was known" they were good in average.
Net result: the huge majority of the playerbase are those you'd call "bad guilds" and "bad players".
Now, were ESO an ELO system ladder game where the best players "bubble up" to the top, you'd be totally right.
However ESO is your average MMO. It's made and balanced to be played by bads. The totally unnecessary old VR content nerf is the rock solid demonstration about which kind of playerbase ZoS have to deal with and balance the game for.
It's also why every MMO company including ZoS makes the statistically top played classes (typically the 2h "warrior" archetype) the easiest to push to their maximum.

3. Plenty possible, but since that phrase had been "swept under the rug" for 1.5 forum pages, I though to put it back into foreground and see the response.

Mumnoch wrote: »

I'm confused how some of you are claiming Sorc's are fine and do not need a DPS boost and post 12k parses in just over 1 minute of fighting as proof. When there are ton's of youtube video's of DKs, NBs, and Templars posting 15-18k parses in the same time frame...


You then turn around and justify the disparity by saying we have a shield (defense does not equal offense and other classes have shields/heals they can also spam)...
You then turn around and justify the disparity by saying our movement abilities justifies the lower DPS cause in PVP movement abilities are handy...
You then turn around and justify the disparity by saying we do 12k DPS (not mentioning that the other classes do 15-18k dps)...
You then start over with the shield argument.

At the end of the day you've proven nothing but your willingness to ignore the facts that Sorc's cannot claim to be the best at any role, while other classes have at least 1 roll they excel at.

Magicka NBs are in a much worse spot than magicka Sorcs are. If you're going to compare DPS numbers at least compare the numbers with similar type spec(magicka v magicka or stamina v stamina). You're never, ever going to have perfect class parity and class balance is always an ongoing thing. Currently all of the classes are in a pretty great spot, and while not perfect parity it's the closest it's ever been.

Mumnoch wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Mumnoch wrote: »

I'm confused how some of you are claiming Sorc's are fine and do not need a DPS boost and post 12k parses in just over 1 minute of fighting as proof. When there are ton's of youtube video's of DKs, NBs, and Templars posting 15-18k parses in the same time frame...


You then turn around and justify the disparity by saying we have a shield (defense does not equal offense and other classes have shields/heals they can also spam)...
You then turn around and justify the disparity by saying our movement abilities justifies the lower DPS cause in PVP movement abilities are handy...
You then turn around and justify the disparity by saying we do 12k DPS (not mentioning that the other classes do 15-18k dps)...
You then start over with the shield argument.

At the end of the day you've proven nothing but your willingness to ignore the facts that Sorc's cannot claim to be the best at any role, while other classes have at least 1 roll they excel at.

Magicka NBs are in a much worse spot than magicka Sorcs are. If you're going to compare DPS numbers at least compare the numbers with similar type spec(magicka v magicka or stamina v stamina). You're never, ever going to have perfect class parity and class balance is always an ongoing thing. Currently all of the classes are in a pretty great spot, and while not perfect parity it's the closest it's ever been.

Magicka NBs do 12k for DPS. The best I've seen posted for Sorc's is 12k. They are not "much worse" they are equal. As far as DPS is concerned you compare DPS to DPS. Stamina based Sorc's are behind every other class, Magic based Sorc's are behind other classes and equal to NB's (who's stamina DPS is superior to Sorc's).

Competition does not care if you are Magic or Stamina based. It cares if you are competitive, which Sorc's are not.

Can you post some of these 15-18k parses for other classes? I haven't seen many.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Sorcs expectations have been created by the release game's obsession with magicka and staves.

... which imo was a massive mistake. I totally felt disappointed listening to my guild mates complaining: "I rolled a DK to whack at stuff with an axe, not to be a sissy in cotton garments". Same for NBs, who generally wanted to play dual wield + medium armor.

I totally don't know what ZoS were thinking back then. Of course our closed beta testers feedback had been completely ignored.

The same thing can be said today: sorcs *at large* and certainly those not coming from a rigid TES background, rolled their character to be "the sissy in cotton garments who blinks around", that is, like in 90% of any MMO.
Being told: "LOL just respec dual wield + stamina" is the same identical error ZoS did at game release when they imposed staff + LA to everyone.

Brandalf wrote: »

On the PTS with sub-optimal gear I was able to pull 14k+ DPS with a stamina Sorc. It may not be perfect parity, but it's extremely close and whining about such a small difference is a joke.

I would love to see a day when Sorcerers could walk away from encounters with a 2k lead in DPS and listen to all the complaints from the other classes just so we could say "But you're still viable and on par with Sorcerer DPS. Whining about such a small difference is a joke." Bonus points if it turned out we were the best in Healing or Tanking as well.

It will be interesting to see how DPS scores compare with the nerf (fix) to Nirnhoned weapons. I imagine we will see more consistent parses with fewer inflated numbers.

I'll try not to speak in concrete terms.

I, as well as almost everyone I know, can 1v1 competitively against a DK.

I, as well as almost everyone I know, cannot 1v1 a sorc running the PvP FoM build under any circumstances.

In my personal experience it generally takes a player advantage of 3 to 1 at least to defeat a sorc. They may not kill us, but we cannot kill them unless we have at least 3 so that we can take turns using and wasting resources.

Unless of course you have 1 sorc chasing 1 sorc. Then the internet breaks.

I maintain, that Sorcs need more nerfs!!!

There is no way on earth that bolt escape should stun people behind it. While Sorcerers maintain the ability to stun their attackers virtually 100% of the time and escape.....Zos introduced skills that make players actually immune to my stuns out of stealth as a NB.

I do so enjoy attacking a Sorc out of stealth to find him immune to stealth, then immediately be stunned as he bolts out of range then by the time I can break the stun Crystal Shards hits......and then coming onto the forums and reading the QQ from sorcs. "Boo Hooo...I want to be immortal and invincible".

PS. All the exploiters in Cyrodiil seem to be Sorcs too, so you got that going for your argument.

olemanwinter wrote: »

They may not kill us,
I maintain, that Sorcs need more nerfs!!!

Ok, so basically you are conceding that Sorcerers do not present a threat to anyone but you feel they need to be nerfed...um, yeah, sure, that makes sense. /facepalm
Sounds more like the wolf complaining that the rabbit it can't catch is OP.

If Sorcerers are OP then what does that say about the other classes?
In what role do Sorcerers excel?
Healer? No, that would be Templars.
Tank? No, that would be DKs.
DPS? No, that would be both DKs and Templars.

olemanwinter wrote: »

PS. All the exploiters in Cyrodiil seem to be Sorcs too, so you got that going for your argument.

Um, yeah, I'm sure all the players that look for ways to exploit a game all got together and said what class could best exploit ESO and came to the conclusion that it would be Sorcerers.
Which of course explains why Sorcerers are so OP in every role..... oh wait.

o_0 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It takes all but 10 minutes of PvPing to figure out Sorcs aren't nerfed...but rather should be.

There is no counter to Shield Stacking right now

18k Wrecking Blows seem to work well.

Amen!

This thread as well as all "sorcs-nerf?" threads will soon be diluted in all the TU - related new threads :-)

I think that the point where I tend to disagree with TehMagnus is that he seems to consider that any variable related to the player is not relevant for comparing the sorcs as a class. In theory it's correct, however the global output of a character is a result of the character itself (class, gears, passives, etc... ) AND the way it's played.

TehMagnus and ppontus and Co seem to consider that "if they can, anybody can".

That's not true. I could wear the exact same clothes and equipement as Usain Bolt, I would still not run as fast as he does. I could even train as hard as he does, and as many hours as he does, and still not run even nearly as fast as does.

Same applies here. Not everyone plays like Hodor people and the like. Some try hard and still don't, some don't even try and that's their perfect right. I belong to the ones who try but never ever will reach that level - and that's ok, that's part of life, I have other talents outside of this game, and I still enjoy playing it.

The problem is that some classes are more tolerant to their player's mistake and sorcs in 1.6 (or let's say 2.0 now ?) have become very, very intolerant to mistakes. It has become incredibly more difficult to play. That doesn't seem to be the case for the other classes. I'd put it this way :

1.5 (PVE - DPS-wise) :

DK x excellent player = awesome output
DK x average player = excellent output
NB x excellent player = awesome output
NB x average player = good output
TP x excellent player = good output
TP x average player = average output
Sorc x excellent player = average output
Sorc x average player = average output


1.6 (PVE - DPS-wise) :

DK x excellent player = awesome output
DK x average player = excellent output
NB x excellent player = ?
NB x average player = ?
TP x excellent player = awesome output
TP x average player = good output
Sorc x excellent player = good output
Sorc x average player = bad output.

Thus the contradictory feelings about the "new sorcs" expressed in this thread and elsewhere.

However, considering that "excellent players" are less than 1% of the player-base and "average players" are 49% (i consider the remaining 50% to be the people who don't care about end-game high-level content and enjoy playing in lower level zones, soloing, rp-ing, farming, whatever, and won't be concerned by all this, because this type of content can be achieved quite easily by any class including the "new sorc"...)

... considering that the changes with the sorc in 1.6 affects the vast majority of the population concerned without an "L2P" really able to help, I'd say : sorcs were nerfed heavily.

And yes, sorcs will have problems being accepted by groups for dungeons and trials because, as a matter of fact, now a sorc played by any non-excellent player will be a disaster.

And please don't come with arguments such as "again casuals are asking for things to be buffed and made easier for them". Casuals ALSO have the right to play at their level. Maybe not everything (I never made it to the end of Sanctum nor did I complete AA or HRC in hard modes) - that's ok, I accept that, that's normal, but I could run HRC and AA with my sorc in 1.5 - and even stand in the leaderboards, and I have problems accepting that I can't run them any more JUST BECAUSE my class has been nerfed, or maybe, better said, was made much, much harder to play. And this is valid for some of the difficult vet dungeons as well (CoA and CoH).

There must be a way to make the sorcs easier to play for casual without taking away the possibilities for elite players to achieve awesome results with them. As it is now, it seems that only very good players can do something "acceptable" with sorcs in PvE and "casuals" achieve far under average results.

I'm not sure ZOS will change things depending on how much we shout here. Admittedly it worked with the 30CP thing, but it didn't with many other things. And they shouldn't listen to anything and everything either.

If at least we knew WHY they felt the need to change/nerf sorcs that way, it would be a proper basis for argumentation. But we don't know anything about the "why". We don't know their motives for changing/upping/nerfing other classes or skills either.

ZOS please... explain WHY. We really need to know WHY.We need to know what your "bigger picture" is here.