TehMagnus wrote: »

diwie wrote: »

To come back to topic: LA was nerfed, so sorcs in LA were nerfed, so sorc was nerfed in general. Maybe others in LA were nerved too but they re not complain that much.

Sorcs were not nerfed, you can't say an armor that you wear by choice is equal to a nerf of your class.

LA was nerfed and I personally don't like it and find it too weak compared to Stamina but this is in no way what so ever related to sorcs and nobody is stoping you from going stamina.

FACT - There is no viable choice for magicka Sorcs but to use lots of Light Armour due to massively expensive abilities.

FACT - Sorcerer has other skills it MUST use to remain 'effective' - such as Force Pulse due to lack of decent class skills, synergies and instant cast dps filler.

Don't try to pass off an entirely relevant point by saying that the non-class skill magicka Sorcs are forced to use by the game's design is somehow 'optional'.

They aren't...

You might as well be saying that Heavy Armour isn't relevant to tanking post-1.6. It's a ridiculous strawman argument.

FACT - Nobody except Zenimax is stopping Zenimax from making magicka competitive with stamina choice on the Sorc.

FACT - Many people played Sorc to play a spellcaster and want to continue doing so. They have every right to do so and still remain competitive. They also have every right to complain that they currently aren't competitive

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorc were nerfed,




Do Dragon Knights get a 50% increased magicka cost when they spam reflect? No
(Lets not forget about dragons blood spam either )

You name me one other class that ZoS has slapped on a 50% increased Magicka Cost on to one of their most INSANELY OVERPOWERED defensive abilities.

fixed for ya, i still see sorcs streaking away endlessly from folk in pvp spamming it maybe 10 time to shake off any amount of pursuers with ease... so whining about streak is just lol

Fayaburn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Smart raid leaders will go for people who don't die & use proper tactics, not for DPS pullers especially when DPS is so close.

I still agree.
But let's say you can choose from a pool of players that you are 100% sure won't die during a HRC HM run for example (they also know how to pull the best numbers out of their class).
What will be the ideal class composition for your roster according to you?

He's using the "moving goal post" rethoric fallacy, that is, when you corner somebody's arguments he'll just put them on a broader perspective nobody can know the outcome yet. But we know the outcome, it happened already in the past, it shall happen again. DKs are a just the "cannot do without" class to clear high level content. Both Templars and NBs bring in substantial ultimates. Sorcs used to, however it was fickle enough before patch 1.6 (in fact, the leaderboards before patch 1.6 sported Sorcs-less teams being the top performers => imagine what happens when a trial leader has to decide which class to drop) and now it's further nerfed and already proven by my own eyes that 1 sorc TOPS is needed now and when CPs will become abundant, even that 1 will be optional at best.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Then why are you complaining? Your class allows you to complete any content in the game and it is strong enough to do so. If you don't compete what do you care if your DPS is a bit lower or even what other people are doing with their classes?

Because the world is not black and white.
One thing is being so dedicated to get crazy for a 1% DPS drop.
One thing, instead, is to be: "happy camper, content with squatting progress and getting carried by my guild mates".

I'd rather prefer avoiding both.

TehMagnus wrote: »

There are no differences, you can kill stuff and complete content. That's all that matters if you're not competing.

Sure, next time I show up in full +health enchanted heavy gear and only use light attacks. I can still complete content!

TehMagnus wrote: »

They aren't. I've seen equivalent and even more from sorcs in my guild regularly. Their intake on this subject is: "Stop wasting time with those people they'll never change their minds" which I'm about to do.

So, why does your guild leader have a certain stance vs sorcs? "I've already spoken to the GM of Hodor who said there is no reason to take Sorcs on trials with the likes of Mistyblood healing and the Negate nerf".
He's another "never changing his mind" too?

TehMagnus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

However the message: "all is fine" in these threads on THIS forum is not going to change.

And the message: "Sorc is Nerfed" is false. You can argue it's not there yet, but sorcs where most def, not nerfed, which is the point of this topic.

They'll stop being nerfed when they'll do the same performance as everyone else with the skills and effort it takes to everyone else. Not a second sooner.

Why is this stupid Topic still going on.... someone please lock this topic...

pppontus wrote: »

Got #3 AA with 2 DKs (I think it was 2 only, not at home right now so can't check) yesterday, of which 1 was the tank. It has nothing to do with the classes at the moment, absolutely nothing.

And someone posted screnshots with a whole leaderboard without a single team sporting a single sorc.

You and your examples are a statistical outlier. In statistics you cut off the 5% top and the 5% bottom performers to get are a realistic figure.

pppontus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

They'll stop being nerfed when they'll do the same performance as everyone else with the skills and effort it takes to everyone else. Not a second sooner.

Good, then we are done here and the point has been proven. Sorcs were not nerfed. In run after run with some of the best players that DC has, Sorcs have come out on top more often than not.

Case closed, I'd say.

You haven't proven anything yet...

... except that you seem too beleive that when you repeatedly claim something, that proves it.

Still waiting for the trial evidence you promised...

The gear argument doesn't really fly. The assertion that everyone just copies someone else's build is a been generalized, too.

It's not that everyone blindly hops onboard someone else's 'FOTM' build because "I said so."

Don't you think it's more reasonable that certain combinations of gear will result in the most efficient/effective build for certain things, and many people will ultimately come to that conclusion?

There are easily 100 different sets in this game, between crafted and dropped. Problem is, and has always been, that most of them will not be optimized for certain builds.

Tanks will build differently than stamina DPS. Healers will build differently than Magicka DPS.

My current build, gear-wise is virtually identical to that of @pppontus , not becuase I googled it, like the 'average Joe,' but because with the combination of gear available out there, it automatically converged because of the benefit it provided.

A quick stroll through elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets with knowledge of how you play, how your character is set up, and what you have available (Undaunted sets, for instance), it doesn't take a whole lot of time to determine there are but a handful of combinations that make the most sense.

Couple that will your own personal experience regarding other issues/non-issues (do you have resource problems, for instance), change/add the enchants that make the most sense for your build and it doesn't take long.

Do most of those builds end up showing remarkable similarities? Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

Do you think it's coincidence that you don't see a whole lot of Ferraris with four cylinder engines and shaped like mini-vans?

I'll equally tell you that my skill setup is not someone else's cut and paste, and it varies with the encounter.

I've found some combinations (some with some unintended but beneficial side effects) that work very well for me. It's not necessarily going to be the same for everyone else, though.

You have to think outside the 1.5 box. You have to.

Old combinations will not work as they once did, but that doesn't mean there aren't combinations that will.

And regarding grouping, it's not just about the numbers, and it never has been. Getting a group gets easier when people have seen you can handle yourself, regardless of what your class is.

Does it mean some other classes/builds may have an easier time of it? Of course. Does it mean you can't be effective, and as an end result, probably end up being more proficient with more finesse than those other builds that 'have it easier?'

Absolutely not.

pugyourself wrote: »

Maybe that would work for the top groups but it's not going to fix the situation for the guy in Wayrest looking to do a daily.

Other classes received numerous buffs over the last few updates. Sorcs did not.

I question the purpose of this thread. Truly. It seems to serve no purpose other than to agitate and pour salt in the wounds of thousands of players who feel like their class has been decimated relative to other classes.

@pugyourself , I can tell you that I have never had issue being picked up for a group, lease of all Vet Sewers.

It is hard at first, because you have to get good at your class and get good at the mechanics, etc. You also have to find three other people that can do the same.

That takes time.

I can tell you, without question, that once you have that under your belt, your class will no longer be the deciding factor on if you stay or if you go.

When you find the build and can handle the content, not because of a number, but because of being able to handle the content, you will find yourself a welcome addition in any group, guaranteed.

TL;DR It is different, and it is hard at first, especially if you have been playing, as you have the old methods engrained and you have to unlearn those. The CP's do have an impact, though it's not gamebreaking one way or the other - it does start to help round things out though - so keep earning them. Gear does have a bigger effect than you think, so look at what you're wearing and decide if you could have something different/better.

Take what you're build is based on, figure out where you are having problems or want improvement, and be creative in trying something a little different to get there - not 12 new skills at time, but perhaps one or two. See the change, see the benefit, or lack thereof, and repeat.

Just as when you were starting in the first place, you'll settle into a combination that works for you.

Does it suck that you have to do that all over again? A little.

Is it worth playing/scrapping the game/class because of it?

Only you can decide.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, but you're going to have to walk in the dark for a bit before you see it.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm still waiting for @TehMagnus to let us know what this 'most powerful spec in cyrodiil' stamina sorc build he has up his sleeve.

Or instead of writing in the forum to complain you could be testing that yourself or figuring out which gear is better for stamina in PVP.

Aint' that hard to find, just check at the most costy gear that gives wep dmg and wep crit and figure out the best combo to get the most out of it but yeah, it requires spending time in the game & testing instead of roaming the forums claiming sorcs suck when you actually have no clue.

Now I know where your motivation is for this topic if you respond to me like that. You say stamina sorc is best pvp set up in game, I ask you how, and you reply by attacking me and implying all I do is roam the forums. That's funny coming from the guy who posts just as much, or more than I do. Also funny you direct your vitriol at me, someone who has been advocating that magicka sorc are just fine for weeks now. I can see now that you are just trolling and trying to keep your thread on top. If I was in your guild I'd be embarrassed by your behavior.

I could also state you're just mad I didn't want to make all the work for you and give you a build that skilled people are using in PVP because you're unable to find one by yourself . Any confirmed PVPer will agree sorc is king.

First you say stamina sorc is king of PVP and now you seem to have forgotten the stamina modifier in your last sentence. I think you would have a lot of difficulty finding one confirmed PVP'r who would say stamina sorc is king of pvp. Magicka Sorc are doing very well right now in PVP, I know as that is the initial spec I am running for 1.6. Besides the many hours I spent on PTS, I have not tried a stamina Sorc on live yet, though that is my ideal spec so yes I would be thrilled if you told me the awesome stamina sorc PVP spec that all the PVP'rs are gushing over. Frankly, I think you are using second hand information, and got your wires crossed on this stamina/magicka thing and you meant to say magicka sorc are king in the initial post that I quoted. I would appreciate it if you would actually confirm/deny that you really meant that STAMINA sorc are king of PVP.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm still waiting for @TehMagnus to let us know what this 'most powerful spec in cyrodiil' stamina sorc build he has up his sleeve.

Or instead of writing in the forum to complain you could be testing that yourself or figuring out which gear is better for stamina in PVP.

Aint' that hard to find, just check at the most costy gear that gives wep dmg and wep crit and figure out the best combo to get the most out of it but yeah, it requires spending time in the game & testing instead of roaming the forums claiming sorcs suck when you actually have no clue.

Now I know where your motivation is for this topic if you respond to me like that. You say stamina sorc is best pvp set up in game, I ask you how, and you reply by attacking me and implying all I do is roam the forums. That's funny coming from the guy who posts just as much, or more than I do. Also funny you direct your vitriol at me, someone who has been advocating that magicka sorc are just fine for weeks now. I can see now that you are just trolling and trying to keep your thread on top. If I was in your guild I'd be embarrassed by your behavior.

I could also state you're just mad I didn't want to make all the work for you and give you a build that skilled people are using in PVP because you're unable to find one by yourself . Any confirmed PVPer will agree sorc is king.

First you say stamina sorc is king of PVP and now you seem to have forgotten the stamina modifier in your last sentence. I think you would have a lot of difficulty finding one confirmed PVP'r who would say stamina sorc is king of pvp. Magicka Sorc are doing very well right now in PVP, I know as that is the initial spec I am running for 1.6. Besides the many hours I spent on PTS, I have not tried a stamina Sorc on live yet, though that is my ideal spec so yes I would be thrilled if you told me the awesome stamina sorc PVP spec that all the PVP'rs are gushing over. Frankly, I think you are using second hand information, and got your wires crossed on this stamina/magicka thing and you meant to say magicka sorc are king in the initial post that I quoted. I would appreciate it if you would actually confirm/deny that you really meant that STAMINA sorc are king of PVP.

Magicka sorc is king it's true (and a great majority of them play it like that), but many people I know from PVP are going stamina (even rerolling sorc to do so) & going crazy about it as well, wrecking blow style.

I've seen the total of one impressive Stamina Sorc in PVP so far, and from what I could tell, he had a guild group with good healers pocket healing him. There is some synergy there for Stamina Sorc with Ball of Lightning and Crit Surge + Crit Charge, but maintaining Crit Surge (also means you do not use the awesome Rally), Streaks/BoL, possibly Boundless Storm, and using Dark Deal is a ridiculous tax on your limited Magicka. That is part of the reason why I am initially going Magicka and plan to revert once I acquire more champion points.

I am interested to hear and hopefully see these strong enough to reroll sorc stamina players though.

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Got #3 AA with 2 DKs (I think it was 2 only, not at home right now so can't check) yesterday, of which 1 was the tank. It has nothing to do with the classes at the moment, absolutely nothing.

And someone posted screnshots with a whole leaderboard without a single team sporting a single sorc.

You and your examples are a statistical outlier. In statistics you cut off the 5% top and the 5% bottom performers to get are a realistic figure.

Actually that could be more with perception then actual data. It is really hard to change a players perspective, and in many cases people will jump on the bandwagon and go with what everyone else is saying. My best example in games past would be my first MMO, rune scape. Everyone complained how weak magicka was compared to everything else, and I argued against it (as a pure magicka character) and beat basically anyone who would duel me to try and prove the point. Outside my close group of friends tho their were very few people who ever changed their mind and would run pure magicka for anything. Now runescape was a very simplistic and easy game in comparison to the build variety we have in this game.

Why I bring this up: till people get use to the new builds they will stick to the builds they are use to and are "easier" to adapt to the new system. it will take massive attempts by the players to change the perspective of the majority of players. It might be that Sorcs do end up lower then every other class, but as of now it isn't looking that grim. Theory crafters are still working on builds, and these builds could very easily change as more CP becomes the norm.

indigoblades wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, globaf.l ner
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

I think sorcs where nerfed and ur post doenst change my view

""But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, globaf.l ner9f)"
Sorcs usefulness in anything other than light armor is much much lot less. I play both a magika sorc and stam 2h/bow sorc .... in magika the sorc must wear light, unlike other classes and the sorc is not an optimal stam class, but i have been learning stam for my sorc since last fall in anticipation of 1.6.

Yes light armor took a hit this patch but we are uniquely situated to mitigate this loss with LIghtning Form and Conjured ward and if you like, even Bound Armor. What seems to be more important, at least for PvE, is HP.

"But Negate was nerfed"
Personally i dont use it much, because it does not effect my playstyle, still its a nerf, with no compensation elsewhere

Negate was nerfed, no question about it. On this we can agree, though it may have been a bit OP anyway.

"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
I kind of agree with ur sentiment here except sorcs only had about 3 useful class skills .... Streak & harden ward & crit surge. Crit surge was only useful in pve. the other skill are situtational. streak's usefulness is less with higher cost and effectly faster horses since rapids can be popped while mounted. Harden ward is about the same ... more useful if u max magicka less so if u are stam build. Again crit surge is completly useless now, and should be replaced since degeneration is much better heal and that is available to any class

Critical Surge is still better just because of the Expert Mage passive. I concede that it seems like they still have a way to go to make sorcerers a viable stamina build, but I haven't really tried to play a stamina build with this update so I'm by no means an expert. From the standpoint of a magicka build I would say that you are overlooking our Crystal Blast and Liquid Lightning. Liquid Lightning especially seems to have gotten better. Now Rapid Maneuvers is something that is great for traveling but Streak was never meant to travel long distances and Rapid Maneuvers only lasts till you cause any kind of damage. With it's high cast cost it's certainly not a spell you would use in combat. It's purely utilitarian.

" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.
Sorc's dps is pathetic except in some strange toggle pet build which is only useful against some bosses and a very strange playing mechanic.... its completely not what people rolled sorcs for.

I have no idea what "strange toggle pet build" you are referring to. I don't feel that the class is any worse in DPS than before the update. Honestly if you're not utilizing things like Liquid Lighting, Crystal Blast, and Mage's Wrath, then your DPS will suffer. But also you spend points into the champion system that will benefit your spells like Elemental Expert.

I havent pvped my sorc in magika yet because 1.6 required me specialize in either magika or stam, so i dont know yet how they are in pvp. Rumor is they are at the same and possibly better for highly skilled players .... But efore gear and enchants and mundus allow me to fulfil both roles (pvp or pve )without paying to respec so that in itself makes me not like 1.6. With softcaps removed and hard ward shield completely dependant on my magika i cant make both stam and magika work without changing attributes.

PvP is still fun as a sorcerer, and you will see much griping on the forums over things like Crystal Fragments hitting hard and not being able to catch Bolt Escaping sorcerers. With the caps removed you could actually get away with wearing medium and heavy armor in PvP.

Too be honest i feel all a sorc is good for is specialized 1v1 tournments possibly (i dont play 1v1, but that is what i have read) and a pet build. I see no role as healer, dps or tank and little utility. My lower level DK face roles content while my sorc needs a specialized buiild and no room for error in excution just to slowly kill stuff and live.

This is completely contrary to my experience.