Joy_Division wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

unreflectable attacks? ROFL! those exist?? Because as a true caster class (no melee what so ever OR bows) those things dont exist. Oh do you mean AoE? PATHETIC damage and easily avoidable. RS would NOT be as OP as it is IF ZoS would switch around what can and cant be reflected. It literally was that simple for ZoS to do.

That being said; I do not have ANY faith that ZoS will address the real issue of RS. Hell even the S&B skill reflects the same things as RS. Meteor, crushing shock, sometimes pet explosions (back when they did damage), Over load, the list goes on and on. So do tell me how a caster class whos character is NOT running melee should break their character style and be forced to use a weapon set they dont want to in order to be able to counter 2 moves. *grabs popcorn*

Dude, you are being overly dramatic. In a thread where everyone is telling the DK to "learn to adapt" and use other skills, you keep insisting that mages are helpless against DKs because there are no range attacks that can't be reflected that does not fit your "style."

I'm sorry to say, but that's not just stubbornness, but just plain wrong. For most mages out there, RS was an annoyance, an inconvenience that they can counter without picking up a two-handed sword or a shield.

Armitas wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Kromus wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Kromus wrote: »

Nop, you are talking about diving solo into zerg and I realized that in your latest post, so not sure what's the point of this discussion if you are here to defend such state of play. No lone player should be able to fight zerg and live to talk about it after, unless he ran away on time or its emperor facing noobs. I'm talking about normal pvp where similar sized groups would face each other. You are talking about "execute levels of hp to use it efficiently" and I'm talking on getting at least one heal I cast for myself and not for all to go to some random players nearby when I'm at ~5% hp.

If it's a group of bads then it should be possible. That is essentially what every 1vX is. Seen any good 1vX's against No Mercy? Of course not, because they are good. Yeah we are talking about pushing into a group solo because we have to if we want to use our class damagers...because all our class damagers are melee. Yeah if you are standing beside your buddies they might take your heal, so sorry about that. However we are talking about DKs in the middle of the zerg because they have to be there if they want to use class damagers. This thread has nothing to do with your woes as a templar beside the rest of the group.

Kromus wrote: »

Nop, I did math before official info about nerf in 1.6 but it doesn't matter for discussion anyway as we are talking about current state of game and not what could be in 1.6 or later.

The current state of the game is that it is being nerfed. Why put up a page of math if it doesn't even matter for discussion. Have you not realized the discussion has changed since the MOD announced the upcoming nerf? Your math also left out quite a bit of important information.

Kromus wrote: »

Nop, I did not left out shield strength increase with nearby player as we are talking about getting hammered by ranged players which means they would be out of Blazing Shield range to take any damage from it. Only thing I forgot to note is usage of base magicka cost for abilities and not actual at v14, since I did not have access to game at the moment to check, but that changes nothing in what I'm trying to explain. Regarding your statement how ranged players would eventually quit hitting you before they would kill themselves with RS, please don't mix theorycraft with what random player might do or not do in real situation. Using same logic, what's stopping players to move away from Blazing Shield? They can move away from its radius and keep shooting at me, while for RS they need to stop shooting at all, because RS don't have radius and complies only to range of attacking ability, right? Btw, Etaniel posted funny video above showing opposite of what you are saying.

I am assuming that if you are going to go zerg diving you will use a gap closer like any reasonable person would which would mean you are in melee range. What Templar in their right mind would literally walk into the zerg spamming blazing shield to cover the ranged until they reached their target. That is a poor decision, and I have no sympathy for you if you play like that.

Kromus wrote: »

As I already stated twice, we are talking about melee tank archetype who would be in first line of fight, and also you don't need to charge, you can use Fiery Grip. What you are saying would be strong point in case DK don't have any option in game for ranged attacks while Templar do, but that is not the case as you can also combine class and weapon skills like most people do (including Templar ofc). You last sentence... don't we all need to be alive in order to do any kind of damage, no matter from what skill tree damaging ability comes from?

No we are talking about the FACT that DK has no choice but to enter the fray to use class damagers whereas you don't have to. Let me hear your Temp complaints about pushing the zerg when you actually have to push into the zerg to use class damagers.

Fiery grip is broken due to exploiters not to mention blockable, and not workable with CC immunity. Please try out fiery grip and let me know how that turns out. Even if it works they will roll, roll then gone and you can't pull them back.

Yes we all have to be alive to do damage, what is your point?

---

Dude, there is a reasonable limit in 1vX one should expect to experience or see, like 1v3, 1v5, 7, 10 at most, not 1v20 or how big zerg is, which would be clear evidence something is badly wrong with game balance. How bad zerg can be for not to kill you in a mere minute? You can bring down some of them with you, but eventually you have to go down unless you bail out on time or support arrives.

PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game but most rules applies in both cases, so lets transfer what you are saying into PVE surrounding. This is a game where tank is not supposed to tank everything at same time in PVE (like they usually do in other mmo's), but yet you assume its perfectly normal to "tank" everything in PVP? Sure, I as melee templar "tank" can wrack havoc in enemy line pretty much like DK, but I don't expect to last long unless I bail out before all focus fire on me. Same with other melee classes/builds, except DK who can create puddle of doom for insane melee damage and at same time reflect all projectiles without sweat, no matter is it 2, 22 or 222 projectiles flying toward his face.

One of the differences between good and bad players is in good one know or can sense when to "bailout" when it gets too hot in center of fight, to consolidate and charge again or push in other direction. That's how things should be and not to handle single class complete immunity to most range attacks, without any diminishing returns or limitations except cost of ability. And for effectiveness you can check again my, by your opinion, useless math. You mentioned I'm missing some elements in my calculation so feel free to add up, don't just say how is not complete and leave it on that.

Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?

It actually is your responsibility to manage the trash waves as a pve tank, and boss trash waves. If you are not, you are not doing all you can as a tank. Yes it is perfectly normal to have forward tanks in PvP. Forward tanks harass the other side and their healer so that your dps can fire freely.

I'm sorry, "Puddle of Doom" that does "insane melee damage"? No clue what you are talking about here. Let me know how much damage the "puddle of doom" does as well.

One of the differences between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that".

It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right.

Sorry but to say alter your build to combat ONE class among many (but lets be honest, a VAST majority of the pvp pop IS DK) is just asinine. The ONLY sorc build (and dont you dare tell me to go melee because I am a mage through and through) is:
streak/deadrice curse/crystal fragment/mages fury/inner light(I use shattering prison sometimes instead of inner light). Could I do AoE? yea I could, but the damage is laughable. So where does that leave a sorc caster? Crushing shock? Reflected, Destructive reach? Reflected. Crystal fragments (we use it) reflected. Pets? HAHAHAHAH! Mines? Here let me walk around those and laugh at how much magicka you just wasted.

So please be just like every other DK and say build around it, or go S&B, or tell us to L2P. You guys will never admit how broken it is lol That one skill reflects everything almost. Ultimates are supposed to feel, you know, Ultimate. Yet the DK can spam batswarm and SoM (the pool that was being discussed) like it is just another skill. (not just dk, but anyone who uses vamp can do it honestly DK are just better at it) all while reflecting one of the sorcs, and meteor.

The broken mechanics of the DK+S&B+VAMP is just so crazy strong (even without vamp)that there is literally NO down side to it. No opening of attack, no weak spot, nothing. Please though, all the DK defending this, keep telling us to L2P. Meanwhile I have accepted my role as cannon fodder while the "forward tank" does all the work.


The only thing you can do is literally wait for them to run out of stamina (should that ever happen). Most the time you die first before it happens. I will however say that fighting a DK is fun for one reason. When they FINALLY die, I tea bag the freaking crap out of them.

EVERYONE has to make their build based on the other classes, no exceptions. Even the DK has to do this. Oh but you don't want to go melee, you refuse to have it on your bar because you want to play a pew pew mage. Guess what, i don't want invade on my bar but I got to have it because you will bolt away if I don't. I don't want to craft detect pots but guess what I have to cause they will stealth away. Don't make excuses, make the changes you need to make just like everyone else has to do for every class skill in the game.

There is no super secret ultimate gen sauce for the DK, we build it just like everyone else. An no it's not through mountains blessing. Anyone can use bats, you got problem with bats, go start a nerf bats thread. This is about reflective scales.

FYI killing a players stamina is the key to winning in this game if you haven't figured that out. That is what you should be doing, not QQing about it because you just want to stand around and mash pew pew to win. PvP in this game is about using your head.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I still can't kill DK's. I don't think the nerf made a difference, so there.

You are a Templar correct? Cast Unstable Core on any DK who cast Reflect and have fun. Nothing can be reflected more than twice so what gets sent back to you, then back to the DK (cause of Unstable Core) will hit him.

***_Hero wrote: »

Maybe what is broken is what skills are reflected, like crushing shock. definitely should not be reflected. Things that are literally a stream of something, and not one solid flying piece like crystal shards, should not be reflect-able. Ultimate's should not be reflected even if it is a solid flying piece of something because on the logic that reflective scales is a normal ability and ultimates are ULTIMATES. And maybe for your class @nicko_lps with the overhaul of abilities they should give you less ranged projectiles as the only things sorcs have in their arsenal. Either they buff pets or destroy that whole pathetic skill line and make it something else. I think having to click a button every 4 seconds to reflect projectiles is sensible and not broken. What they need to do is allow people to have more build varieties that work not only from a distance if your not a dk or Templar. Cuz seriously, lets be honest. Light armor, staffs, sword and board, medium armor and bow and the is PVP. that's about the depth of build varieties across the game as a whole. You use 4 or so class abilities with the same morphs and skills every one else is using in the listed non class base skill lines I listed above. There is usually one right way to do it and no other sensible way to do it. So when dk uses reflective scales and it cancels out most of the handful of ranged abilities in this small pool of abilities we have, then yeah. I guess it seems just a little OP. IF some one defined projectile as everything that flies through the air and not things that fly in the air that are small and or short linear objects that fly through the air.