The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF
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Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
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Read the thread?Epsilon_Echo wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »DK's whining about Fear need to learn how to play, just like they keep suggesting to people whining about RS.
Who is complaining about fear? I do, usually in the form of a swear in TS, but not here.
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Epsilon_Echo✭✭✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »
Read the thread?Epsilon_Echo wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »DK's whining about Fear need to learn how to play, just like they keep suggesting to people whining about RS.
Who is complaining about fear? I do, usually in the form of a swear in TS, but not here.
A single person complaining about a NB skill does not constitute that half dozen scales threads on the recent forums page ATM. Though my jest was poorly worded and thats on me.3 -
Etaniel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »DK's whining about Fear need to learn how to play, just like they keep suggesting to people whining about RS.
I don't see a topic on the alliance war tab called "nerf fear". Fear can be countered, it's just very annoying to deal with3 -
Soulac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »DK's whining about Fear need to learn how to play, just like they keep suggesting to people whining about RS.
I don't see a topic on the alliance war tab called "nerf fear". Fear can be countered, it's just very annoying to deal with
*fear*
HihiR.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU
- Meow -2 -
Lhorion✭✭✭✭✭I thought the fear was called to show annother strong skill. Sure, you can DO things against it, you always can do.
RS is a very strong skill, but is this bad? In small fights it will be still strong. In fights against a zerg it was just OP when the zerg was really bad. I don't have Big problems with the nerf, because RS will still work in smallscale fights, but I don't understand the crying because:
1. The situation RS is OP the DK would die if the enemie-group/zerg is good.
2. RS does not range, it does counter projectils.
Some guys here said that the DK-argument "We have no charge/range Skill" should have been answered with "Use S&B".
According to this a DK could say as an crying-answer:
"Use S&B "
Why? Well.. Every projectil can be reflected just one time. Beside all the non-projectils going through a Bowuser can do the shield-reflect and them the snipe. If there are 2-3 guys doing this the the problem is solved. You just have to use a weapon everyone can use (your own argument).
Most sorcs use S&B, so their fragments should hit the DK and a few guys more and you can kill the DK in a few seconds WITH PROJECTILS
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Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread just keeps on going and going. Why not just give the change a chance before calling useless. In 1v1 its still very good, so for the love of god stop blaming ZOS for trying to balance their game.
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Quantine✭✭✭Making it reflect only 4 projectiles is like making it useless. Stop going from one extreme to the other please!EU | AD | Banana Squad Inc | Arena | The Pariah | Keepers of Cyrodiil
Arulash, DK, rank 33
Eledwhen Elmwoods, NB, rank 30
Lil Aru, OP Templar healer, rank 23
Aru on Flames, DK, rank 17
NA | EP | Banana Squad Inc
Aru's Sis, DK6 -
Dreyloch✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Guys, please remember that many of our abilities are getting reworked for Update 6, so please give this a try on the PTS once it's available to see how it feels with all the other changes. Thanks!
I'd be willing to do that if the devs actually changed anything before it going live. But since most of the time they don't. What's the point?"The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"2 -
Dreyloch✭✭✭✭✭rophez_ESO wrote: »Night-claw wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi all, just popping in to let you know that we do have plans to adjust Reflective Scales in Update 6. Currently, you can reflect an infinite number of projectiles per cast; we will be setting a maximum number of projectiles that the ability can reflect per cast, the maximum being four. We look forward to hearing your feedback on this once it's available to test on the PTS.
unsubing is just around the corner i foresee. you nerf talons and our standard then our chain, magma armor and take flight and now this QQ win again wooo wooo! i give up note to all QQflaming this skill l2p
It really is demoralizing to suffer nerf after nerf. Why not buff other class skills?
Or...fix the stuff that is being reflected that shouldn't be? (I'm agreeing with you, just in a different way)"The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Fear is the most op skill for small scale fights. It forces the enemy to break cc and waste loads of Stamina. You can avoid RS by being clever enough to use unreflectable attacks. Fear can only be countered by using immovable.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Are you kidding me? Mass Hysteria only effects 2 targets and can only be used close range. I know you are not comparing it to RS. Even nerfed RS offers way more protection. Oh, and you guys still have talons, the most OP CC in the game. Also, as someone else mentioned block doesn't work for any AoE.johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
I'm not debating what DKs can or cannot do or even what I can or cannot do. They are the only class that has had a free pass at being completely immune to projectiles. Their RS only means that people target me for lethal arrow more since my class can't reflect it. I'm glad they are finally becoming mortal like the rest of us.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay....so what's the problem? Why can't DK's pick up a ranged weapon and stop crying? Is it because their entire build relies on standing there spamming one skill at a safe distance and not having to worry about it being countered?eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Not exclusively, no. I also use restoration staff abilities instead of crying that I don't have heals like a templar.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
And yet I somehow manage just fine on my nightblade without reflective scales. Go figure. I guess it can be done without an easy mode, faceroll, i win button.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
So let me make sure I get this. DKs can only do close range damage, therefore they get an ability that makes them completely immune to all projectiles, because they for some reason shouldn't be required to use weapon abilities.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
But those are the same challenges every other class has.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm sure you're a great player and you will adapt. This isn't the end of the world like everyone is making it seem. That is all I am saying. There are other options.
I don't know if I'm a good player or not, but I will adapt. It's not "the end" for DK's. My concern is over how this particular change will change the landscape of pvp (pew pew stand offs) and how this further narrows down DKs into fewer and fewer builds. If we choose range we lose our class damagers, if we choose melee we suffer focus fire without executes or escapes.
Even those fighting for an RS nerf think the 4 hits is bogus. If they need to nerf it they need to do it right and this isn't it.
You can cast ranged class damagers at melee range, however you cannot cast melee class damagers at range. It only works one way.
If DKs have an unmitigated ability to completely reflect all projects back at the caster shouldn't the other classes all have a way to be immune to talons, lava whip, searing strike, fiery breath, stone fist, etc.? I mean it's fair right? We should be able to reflect all the nasty things you throw on us when you perma root us in place and hit us with all of your high damaging abilities. The fact that those that play your class still don't see this side to it is mind boggling given how well reported it is.
Because in PvP that means immediately taking the focus fire from every enemy in the group. That is something you don't get standing side by side with 20 other pewers.
Hmm a way for other players to defend themselves against melee attacks. If only there were a skill like that for everyone to use that would cause all melee attacks to miss. What if it also lasted 4seconds like RS. What if it was actually in the game already.
If you talon someone and they roll out of it you will have to invade them first and then talon again consuming stamina and magicka for each roll. About the only people I lock down with talons anymore are people who use double tap to roll. The only thing Talons needs right now is immunity on break free.
When you have to face the focus fire of the entire zerg to use your class damagers then yes you can have what is required to make that possible. When you sit on the back ranks and pew pew you don't need it.
I assume by "Doing just fine" you are referring to the same scenario of entering a zerg and holding your own. Let me guess you use class skills to accomplish that right? Interesting...so the skills that allow you to successfully handle your own allow you to successfully handle your own. Thats some good stuff right there.
No one uses class skills exclusively.
We have been over this before. You never responded the last time. You could counter by using a build that doesn't play into his hands.
I know Sorcs can Bolt so I equip a gap closer
I know NB can stealth so I carry detect pots
I know DKs can reflect so I equip non projectiles only equip projectiles.
Yet NB´s are the only class with a CC that goes through block. Hypocrite.
By saying that all AOE skills are not blockable you showed you have no clue about the game mechanics anyway.
unreflectable attacks? ROFL! those exist?? Because as a true caster class (no melee what so ever OR bows) those things dont exist. Oh do you mean AoE? PATHETIC damage and easily avoidable. RS would NOT be as OP as it is IF ZoS would switch around what can and cant be reflected. It literally was that simple for ZoS to do.
That being said; I do not have ANY faith that ZoS will address the real issue of RS. Hell even the S&B skill reflects the same things as RS. Meteor, crushing shock, sometimes pet explosions (back when they did damage), Over load, the list goes on and on. So do tell me how a caster class whos character is NOT running melee should break their character style and be forced to use a weapon set they dont want to in order to be able to counter 2 moves. *grabs popcorn*
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Kromus✭✭✭
Nop, you are talking about diving solo into zerg and I realized that in your latest post, so not sure what's the point of this discussion if you are here to defend such state of play. No lone player should be able to fight zerg and live to talk about it after, unless he ran away on time or its emperor facing noobs. I'm talking about normal pvp where similar sized groups would face each other. You are talking about "execute levels of hp to use it efficiently" and I'm talking on getting at least one heal I cast for myself and not for all to go to some random players nearby when I'm at ~5% hp.
If it's a group of bads then it should be possible. That is essentially what every 1vX is. Seen any good 1vX's against No Mercy? Of course not, because they are good. Yeah we are talking about pushing into a group solo because we have to if we want to use our class damagers...because all our class damagers are melee. Yeah if you are standing beside your buddies they might take your heal, so sorry about that. However we are talking about DKs in the middle of the zerg because they have to be there if they want to use class damagers. This thread has nothing to do with your woes as a templar beside the rest of the group.
The current state of the game is that it is being nerfed. Why put up a page of math if it doesn't even matter for discussion. Have you not realized the discussion has changed since the MOD announced the upcoming nerf? Your math also left out quite a bit of important information.Nop, I did math before official info about nerf in 1.6 but it doesn't matter for discussion anyway as we are talking about current state of game and not what could be in 1.6 or later.Nop, I did not left out shield strength increase with nearby player as we are talking about getting hammered by ranged players which means they would be out of Blazing Shield range to take any damage from it. Only thing I forgot to note is usage of base magicka cost for abilities and not actual at v14, since I did not have access to game at the moment to check, but that changes nothing in what I'm trying to explain. Regarding your statement how ranged players would eventually quit hitting you before they would kill themselves with RS, please don't mix theorycraft with what random player might do or not do in real situation. Using same logic, what's stopping players to move away from Blazing Shield? They can move away from its radius and keep shooting at me, while for RS they need to stop shooting at all, because RS don't have radius and complies only to range of attacking ability, right? Btw, Etaniel posted funny video above showing opposite of what you are saying.
I am assuming that if you are going to go zerg diving you will use a gap closer like any reasonable person would which would mean you are in melee range. What Templar in their right mind would literally walk into the zerg spamming blazing shield to cover the ranged until they reached their target. That is a poor decision, and I have no sympathy for you if you play like that.
No we are talking about the FACT that DK has no choice but to enter the fray to use class damagers whereas you don't have to. Let me hear your Temp complaints about pushing the zerg when you actually have to push into the zerg to use class damagers.As I already stated twice, we are talking about melee tank archetype who would be in first line of fight, and also you don't need to charge, you can use Fiery Grip. What you are saying would be strong point in case DK don't have any option in game for ranged attacks while Templar do, but that is not the case as you can also combine class and weapon skills like most people do (including Templar ofc). You last sentence... don't we all need to be alive in order to do any kind of damage, no matter from what skill tree damaging ability comes from?
Fiery grip is broken due to exploiters not to mention blockable, and not workable with CC immunity. Please try out fiery grip and let me know how that turns out. Even if it works they will roll, roll then gone and you can't pull them back.
Yes we all have to be alive to do damage, what is your point?
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Dude, there is a reasonable limit in 1vX one should expect to experience or see, like 1v3, 1v5, 7, 10 at most, not 1v20 or how big zerg is, which would be clear evidence something is badly wrong with game balance. How bad zerg can be for not to kill you in a mere minute? You can bring down some of them with you, but eventually you have to go down unless you bail out on time or support arrives.
PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game but most rules applies in both cases, so lets transfer what you are saying into PVE surrounding. This is a game where tank is not supposed to tank everything at same time in PVE (like they usually do in other mmo's), but yet you assume its perfectly normal to "tank" everything in PVP? Sure, I as melee templar "tank" can wrack havoc in enemy line pretty much like DK, but I don't expect to last long unless I bail out before all focus fire on me. Same with other melee classes/builds, except DK who can create puddle of doom for insane melee damage and at same time reflect all projectiles without sweat, no matter is it 2, 22 or 222 projectiles flying toward his face.
One of the differences between good and bad players is in good one know or can sense when to "bailout" when it gets too hot in center of fight, to consolidate and charge again or push in other direction. That's how things should be and not to handle single class complete immunity to most range attacks, without any diminishing returns or limitations except cost of ability. And for effectiveness you can check again my, by your opinion, useless math. You mentioned I'm missing some elements in my calculation so feel free to add up, don't just say how is not complete and leave it on that.2 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
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Nop, you are talking about diving solo into zerg and I realized that in your latest post, so not sure what's the point of this discussion if you are here to defend such state of play. No lone player should be able to fight zerg and live to talk about it after, unless he ran away on time or its emperor facing noobs. I'm talking about normal pvp where similar sized groups would face each other. You are talking about "execute levels of hp to use it efficiently" and I'm talking on getting at least one heal I cast for myself and not for all to go to some random players nearby when I'm at ~5% hp.
If it's a group of bads then it should be possible. That is essentially what every 1vX is. Seen any good 1vX's against No Mercy? Of course not, because they are good. Yeah we are talking about pushing into a group solo because we have to if we want to use our class damagers...because all our class damagers are melee. Yeah if you are standing beside your buddies they might take your heal, so sorry about that. However we are talking about DKs in the middle of the zerg because they have to be there if they want to use class damagers. This thread has nothing to do with your woes as a templar beside the rest of the group.
The current state of the game is that it is being nerfed. Why put up a page of math if it doesn't even matter for discussion. Have you not realized the discussion has changed since the MOD announced the upcoming nerf? Your math also left out quite a bit of important information.Nop, I did math before official info about nerf in 1.6 but it doesn't matter for discussion anyway as we are talking about current state of game and not what could be in 1.6 or later.Nop, I did not left out shield strength increase with nearby player as we are talking about getting hammered by ranged players which means they would be out of Blazing Shield range to take any damage from it. Only thing I forgot to note is usage of base magicka cost for abilities and not actual at v14, since I did not have access to game at the moment to check, but that changes nothing in what I'm trying to explain. Regarding your statement how ranged players would eventually quit hitting you before they would kill themselves with RS, please don't mix theorycraft with what random player might do or not do in real situation. Using same logic, what's stopping players to move away from Blazing Shield? They can move away from its radius and keep shooting at me, while for RS they need to stop shooting at all, because RS don't have radius and complies only to range of attacking ability, right? Btw, Etaniel posted funny video above showing opposite of what you are saying.
I am assuming that if you are going to go zerg diving you will use a gap closer like any reasonable person would which would mean you are in melee range. What Templar in their right mind would literally walk into the zerg spamming blazing shield to cover the ranged until they reached their target. That is a poor decision, and I have no sympathy for you if you play like that.
No we are talking about the FACT that DK has no choice but to enter the fray to use class damagers whereas you don't have to. Let me hear your Temp complaints about pushing the zerg when you actually have to push into the zerg to use class damagers.As I already stated twice, we are talking about melee tank archetype who would be in first line of fight, and also you don't need to charge, you can use Fiery Grip. What you are saying would be strong point in case DK don't have any option in game for ranged attacks while Templar do, but that is not the case as you can also combine class and weapon skills like most people do (including Templar ofc). You last sentence... don't we all need to be alive in order to do any kind of damage, no matter from what skill tree damaging ability comes from?
Fiery grip is broken due to exploiters not to mention blockable, and not workable with CC immunity. Please try out fiery grip and let me know how that turns out. Even if it works they will roll, roll then gone and you can't pull them back.
Yes we all have to be alive to do damage, what is your point?
---
Dude, there is a reasonable limit in 1vX one should expect to experience or see, like 1v3, 1v5, 7, 10 at most, not 1v20 or how big zerg is, which would be clear evidence something is badly wrong with game balance. How bad zerg can be for not to kill you in a mere minute? You can bring down some of them with you, but eventually you have to go down unless you bail out on time or support arrives.
PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game but most rules applies in both cases, so lets transfer what you are saying into PVE surrounding. This is a game where tank is not supposed to tank everything at same time in PVE (like they usually do in other mmo's), but yet you assume its perfectly normal to "tank" everything in PVP? Sure, I as melee templar "tank" can wrack havoc in enemy line pretty much like DK, but I don't expect to last long unless I bail out before all focus fire on me. Same with other melee classes/builds, except DK who can create puddle of doom for insane melee damage and at same time reflect all projectiles without sweat, no matter is it 2, 22 or 222 projectiles flying toward his face.
One of the differences between good and bad players is in good one know or can sense when to "bailout" when it gets too hot in center of fight, to consolidate and charge again or push in other direction. That's how things should be and not to handle single class complete immunity to most range attacks, without any diminishing returns or limitations except cost of ability. And for effectiveness you can check again my, by your opinion, useless math. You mentioned I'm missing some elements in my calculation so feel free to add up, don't just say how is not complete and leave it on that.
Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?
It actually is your responsibility to manage the trash waves as a pve tank, and boss trash waves. If you are not, you are not doing all you can as a tank. Yes it is perfectly normal to have forward tanks in PvP. Forward tanks harass the other side and their healer so that your dps can fire freely.
I'm sorry, "Puddle of Doom" that does "insane melee damage"? No clue what you are talking about here. Let me know how much damage the "puddle of doom" does as well.
One of the differences between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that".
It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right.Edited by Armitas on December 11, 2014 8:32PMRetired.
Nord mDK5 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭To be honest, I've never seen a balanced game that allowed a player to go 1v5+ against equally geared/leveled players no matter how big the skill difference was, wouldn't make much sense to me anyway.Keepers of Cyrodiil | Aether | The Achievement Seekers
For those who want to improve their behaviour:
gdcvault.com/play/1017940/The-Science-Behind_shaping-Player
PvP Class Balance Analysis as of 2.0.7 Outdated
[Stamina] PvP Class Balance Analysis as of 2.0.7 Outdated
"Again, we’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’." - Matt Firor3 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The s&b reflect last 30 seconds. In a 1v1 its far better especially as it stuns the enemy. I think some people dont understand that dks have limited resources and casting a 300 magicka skill every 4 seconds is expensive.
- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP4 -
Soulac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Other classes got limited resources too, deal with it.
300 Magicka cost is not that much, one heavy attack and the normal regeneration for one cast, ggR.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU
- Meow -5 -
Milf_Hero✭✭✭@soulac so is that the only thing the DK is doing to win the fight or is that just to stay alive? lol. a heavy attack and refletive scales? if he is maintaining RS 300magicka and using other skills like talons 400 , lava or fiery whip 300 , unstable flame 215. Just by using RS he can kiss his magicka regeneration goodbye for the bonus of reflecting projectiles. Also I think that ranged enemies need something to fear. All the advantages of attacking from afar with immunity is whats gonna happen when the RS nerf hits. The only viable builds for pvp will be a bow and staff? some bs right there.You name it, and ill kill it.3
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Soulac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@soulac so is that the only thing the DK is doing to win the fight or is that just to stay alive? lol. a heavy attack and refletive scales? if he is maintaining RS 300magicka and using other skills like talons 400 , lava or fiery whip 300 , unstable flame 215. Just by using RS he can kiss his magicka regeneration goodbye for the bonus of reflecting projectiles. Also I think that ranged enemies need something to fear. All the advantages of attacking from afar with immunity is whats gonna happen when the RS nerf hits. The only viable builds for pvp will be a bow and staff? some bs right there.
Please read correctly what I wrote, just once.
I told my banana friend above what a DK need to cast a single RS and that other classes got limited resources as well or is that wrong?
RS is not expensive and that's what my post says, nothing else.
I didn't wrote anything about how a DK keep himself alive. If so please mark the sentence, thank you.
Anyway I have much fun in this thread here, so thank you again.Edited by Soulac on December 12, 2014 1:29PMR.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU
- Meow -0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Nop, you are talking about diving solo into zerg and I realized that in your latest post, so not sure what's the point of this discussion if you are here to defend such state of play. No lone player should be able to fight zerg and live to talk about it after, unless he ran away on time or its emperor facing noobs. I'm talking about normal pvp where similar sized groups would face each other. You are talking about "execute levels of hp to use it efficiently" and I'm talking on getting at least one heal I cast for myself and not for all to go to some random players nearby when I'm at ~5% hp.
If it's a group of bads then it should be possible. That is essentially what every 1vX is. Seen any good 1vX's against No Mercy? Of course not, because they are good. Yeah we are talking about pushing into a group solo because we have to if we want to use our class damagers...because all our class damagers are melee. Yeah if you are standing beside your buddies they might take your heal, so sorry about that. However we are talking about DKs in the middle of the zerg because they have to be there if they want to use class damagers. This thread has nothing to do with your woes as a templar beside the rest of the group.
The current state of the game is that it is being nerfed. Why put up a page of math if it doesn't even matter for discussion. Have you not realized the discussion has changed since the MOD announced the upcoming nerf? Your math also left out quite a bit of important information.Nop, I did math before official info about nerf in 1.6 but it doesn't matter for discussion anyway as we are talking about current state of game and not what could be in 1.6 or later.Nop, I did not left out shield strength increase with nearby player as we are talking about getting hammered by ranged players which means they would be out of Blazing Shield range to take any damage from it. Only thing I forgot to note is usage of base magicka cost for abilities and not actual at v14, since I did not have access to game at the moment to check, but that changes nothing in what I'm trying to explain. Regarding your statement how ranged players would eventually quit hitting you before they would kill themselves with RS, please don't mix theorycraft with what random player might do or not do in real situation. Using same logic, what's stopping players to move away from Blazing Shield? They can move away from its radius and keep shooting at me, while for RS they need to stop shooting at all, because RS don't have radius and complies only to range of attacking ability, right? Btw, Etaniel posted funny video above showing opposite of what you are saying.
I am assuming that if you are going to go zerg diving you will use a gap closer like any reasonable person would which would mean you are in melee range. What Templar in their right mind would literally walk into the zerg spamming blazing shield to cover the ranged until they reached their target. That is a poor decision, and I have no sympathy for you if you play like that.
No we are talking about the FACT that DK has no choice but to enter the fray to use class damagers whereas you don't have to. Let me hear your Temp complaints about pushing the zerg when you actually have to push into the zerg to use class damagers.As I already stated twice, we are talking about melee tank archetype who would be in first line of fight, and also you don't need to charge, you can use Fiery Grip. What you are saying would be strong point in case DK don't have any option in game for ranged attacks while Templar do, but that is not the case as you can also combine class and weapon skills like most people do (including Templar ofc). You last sentence... don't we all need to be alive in order to do any kind of damage, no matter from what skill tree damaging ability comes from?
Fiery grip is broken due to exploiters not to mention blockable, and not workable with CC immunity. Please try out fiery grip and let me know how that turns out. Even if it works they will roll, roll then gone and you can't pull them back.
Yes we all have to be alive to do damage, what is your point?
---
Dude, there is a reasonable limit in 1vX one should expect to experience or see, like 1v3, 1v5, 7, 10 at most, not 1v20 or how big zerg is, which would be clear evidence something is badly wrong with game balance. How bad zerg can be for not to kill you in a mere minute? You can bring down some of them with you, but eventually you have to go down unless you bail out on time or support arrives.
PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game but most rules applies in both cases, so lets transfer what you are saying into PVE surrounding. This is a game where tank is not supposed to tank everything at same time in PVE (like they usually do in other mmo's), but yet you assume its perfectly normal to "tank" everything in PVP? Sure, I as melee templar "tank" can wrack havoc in enemy line pretty much like DK, but I don't expect to last long unless I bail out before all focus fire on me. Same with other melee classes/builds, except DK who can create puddle of doom for insane melee damage and at same time reflect all projectiles without sweat, no matter is it 2, 22 or 222 projectiles flying toward his face.
One of the differences between good and bad players is in good one know or can sense when to "bailout" when it gets too hot in center of fight, to consolidate and charge again or push in other direction. That's how things should be and not to handle single class complete immunity to most range attacks, without any diminishing returns or limitations except cost of ability. And for effectiveness you can check again my, by your opinion, useless math. You mentioned I'm missing some elements in my calculation so feel free to add up, don't just say how is not complete and leave it on that.
Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?
It actually is your responsibility to manage the trash waves as a pve tank, and boss trash waves. If you are not, you are not doing all you can as a tank. Yes it is perfectly normal to have forward tanks in PvP. Forward tanks harass the other side and their healer so that your dps can fire freely.
I'm sorry, "Puddle of Doom" that does "insane melee damage"? No clue what you are talking about here. Let me know how much damage the "puddle of doom" does as well.
One of the differences between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that".
It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right.
Sorry but to say alter your build to combat ONE class among many (but lets be honest, a VAST majority of the pvp pop IS DK) is just asinine. The ONLY sorc build (and dont you dare tell me to go melee because I am a mage through and through) is:
streak/deadrice curse/crystal fragment/mages fury/inner light(I use shattering prison sometimes instead of inner light). Could I do AoE? yea I could, but the damage is laughable. So where does that leave a sorc caster? Crushing shock? Reflected, Destructive reach? Reflected. Crystal fragments (we use it) reflected. Pets? HAHAHAHAH! Mines? Here let me walk around those and laugh at how much magicka you just wasted.
So please be just like every other DK and say build around it, or go S&B, or tell us to L2P. You guys will never admit how broken it is lol That one skill reflects everything almost. Ultimates are supposed to feel, you know, Ultimate. Yet the DK can spam batswarm and SoM (the pool that was being discussed) like it is just another skill. (not just dk, but anyone who uses vamp can do it honestly DK are just better at it) all while reflecting one of the sorcs, and meteor.
The broken mechanics of the DK+S&B+VAMP is just so crazy strong (even without vamp)that there is literally NO down side to it. No opening of attack, no weak spot, nothing. Please though, all the DK defending this, keep telling us to L2P. Meanwhile I have accepted my role as cannon fodder while the "forward tank" does all the work.
The only thing you can do is literally wait for them to run out of stamina (should that ever happen). Most the time you die first before it happens. I will however say that fighting a DK is fun for one reason. When they FINALLY die, I tea bag the freaking crap out of them.
Edited by Gorthax on December 12, 2014 1:56PM4 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭The s&b reflect last 30 seconds. In a 1v1 its far better especially as it stuns the enemy. I think some people dont understand that dks have limited resources and casting a 300 magicka skill every 4 seconds is expensive.
no ,no its not. I see them spam it ALL the time. Even before 4 seconds is up. Sometimes back to back for some odd reason. Then still be able to cast other magic skills such as whip and talons and gdb. Light Armor does wonders for reducing their magicka cost.
So since you are going based off of the magicka cost, should we add a increase to it everytime it is casted within 8 seconds of original cast that way there is a 4 second opening? I think that would be fair, then they could keep their infinite reflect, but have an opening or have no opening for people to attack at the cost of doubling the expended magicka every time it is cast back to back while halving the magicka recovery rate.2 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭To be honest, I've never seen a balanced game that allowed a player to go 1v5+ against equally geared/leveled players no matter how big the skill difference was, wouldn't make much sense to me anyway.
I'm not sure if that is true. I think of Quake 1 and Quake 2 skill really carried a lot in that game and not just in deathmatch and rocket arena, team fortress, weapons factory, CTF and other mods, especially the ones with grapple enabled.
Even some games like the original planet side allowed this where skill or cheese could be well rewarded, I think of magmowing or getting a heavy down into the control room and back against the wall lulzing it up with a grenade launcher.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
unreflectable attacks? ROFL! those exist?? Because as a true caster class (no melee what so ever OR bows) those things dont exist. Oh do you mean AoE? PATHETIC damage and easily avoidable. RS would NOT be as OP as it is IF ZoS would switch around what can and cant be reflected. It literally was that simple for ZoS to do.
That being said; I do not have ANY faith that ZoS will address the real issue of RS. Hell even the S&B skill reflects the same things as RS. Meteor, crushing shock, sometimes pet explosions (back when they did damage), Over load, the list goes on and on. So do tell me how a caster class whos character is NOT running melee should break their character style and be forced to use a weapon set they dont want to in order to be able to counter 2 moves. *grabs popcorn*
Dude, you are being overly dramatic. In a thread where everyone is telling the DK to "learn to adapt" and use other skills, you keep insisting that mages are helpless against DKs because there are no range attacks that can't be reflected that does not fit your "style."
I'm sorry to say, but that's not just stubbornness, but just plain wrong. For most mages out there, RS was an annoyance, an inconvenience that they can counter without picking up a two-handed sword or a shield.
Edited by Joy_Division on December 12, 2014 3:55PM2 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If the reflecting of 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was default at launch, nobody would call ot useless. They'd call it a nice utility/survivability tool. People dislike change. Its human nature. This thread proves once again that people react to it with relentless aversion. In time they will learn to accept it.0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Nop, you are talking about diving solo into zerg and I realized that in your latest post, so not sure what's the point of this discussion if you are here to defend such state of play. No lone player should be able to fight zerg and live to talk about it after, unless he ran away on time or its emperor facing noobs. I'm talking about normal pvp where similar sized groups would face each other. You are talking about "execute levels of hp to use it efficiently" and I'm talking on getting at least one heal I cast for myself and not for all to go to some random players nearby when I'm at ~5% hp.
If it's a group of bads then it should be possible. That is essentially what every 1vX is. Seen any good 1vX's against No Mercy? Of course not, because they are good. Yeah we are talking about pushing into a group solo because we have to if we want to use our class damagers...because all our class damagers are melee. Yeah if you are standing beside your buddies they might take your heal, so sorry about that. However we are talking about DKs in the middle of the zerg because they have to be there if they want to use class damagers. This thread has nothing to do with your woes as a templar beside the rest of the group.
The current state of the game is that it is being nerfed. Why put up a page of math if it doesn't even matter for discussion. Have you not realized the discussion has changed since the MOD announced the upcoming nerf? Your math also left out quite a bit of important information.Nop, I did math before official info about nerf in 1.6 but it doesn't matter for discussion anyway as we are talking about current state of game and not what could be in 1.6 or later.Nop, I did not left out shield strength increase with nearby player as we are talking about getting hammered by ranged players which means they would be out of Blazing Shield range to take any damage from it. Only thing I forgot to note is usage of base magicka cost for abilities and not actual at v14, since I did not have access to game at the moment to check, but that changes nothing in what I'm trying to explain. Regarding your statement how ranged players would eventually quit hitting you before they would kill themselves with RS, please don't mix theorycraft with what random player might do or not do in real situation. Using same logic, what's stopping players to move away from Blazing Shield? They can move away from its radius and keep shooting at me, while for RS they need to stop shooting at all, because RS don't have radius and complies only to range of attacking ability, right? Btw, Etaniel posted funny video above showing opposite of what you are saying.
I am assuming that if you are going to go zerg diving you will use a gap closer like any reasonable person would which would mean you are in melee range. What Templar in their right mind would literally walk into the zerg spamming blazing shield to cover the ranged until they reached their target. That is a poor decision, and I have no sympathy for you if you play like that.
No we are talking about the FACT that DK has no choice but to enter the fray to use class damagers whereas you don't have to. Let me hear your Temp complaints about pushing the zerg when you actually have to push into the zerg to use class damagers.As I already stated twice, we are talking about melee tank archetype who would be in first line of fight, and also you don't need to charge, you can use Fiery Grip. What you are saying would be strong point in case DK don't have any option in game for ranged attacks while Templar do, but that is not the case as you can also combine class and weapon skills like most people do (including Templar ofc). You last sentence... don't we all need to be alive in order to do any kind of damage, no matter from what skill tree damaging ability comes from?
Fiery grip is broken due to exploiters not to mention blockable, and not workable with CC immunity. Please try out fiery grip and let me know how that turns out. Even if it works they will roll, roll then gone and you can't pull them back.
Yes we all have to be alive to do damage, what is your point?
---
Dude, there is a reasonable limit in 1vX one should expect to experience or see, like 1v3, 1v5, 7, 10 at most, not 1v20 or how big zerg is, which would be clear evidence something is badly wrong with game balance. How bad zerg can be for not to kill you in a mere minute? You can bring down some of them with you, but eventually you have to go down unless you bail out on time or support arrives.
PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game but most rules applies in both cases, so lets transfer what you are saying into PVE surrounding. This is a game where tank is not supposed to tank everything at same time in PVE (like they usually do in other mmo's), but yet you assume its perfectly normal to "tank" everything in PVP? Sure, I as melee templar "tank" can wrack havoc in enemy line pretty much like DK, but I don't expect to last long unless I bail out before all focus fire on me. Same with other melee classes/builds, except DK who can create puddle of doom for insane melee damage and at same time reflect all projectiles without sweat, no matter is it 2, 22 or 222 projectiles flying toward his face.
One of the differences between good and bad players is in good one know or can sense when to "bailout" when it gets too hot in center of fight, to consolidate and charge again or push in other direction. That's how things should be and not to handle single class complete immunity to most range attacks, without any diminishing returns or limitations except cost of ability. And for effectiveness you can check again my, by your opinion, useless math. You mentioned I'm missing some elements in my calculation so feel free to add up, don't just say how is not complete and leave it on that.
Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?
It actually is your responsibility to manage the trash waves as a pve tank, and boss trash waves. If you are not, you are not doing all you can as a tank. Yes it is perfectly normal to have forward tanks in PvP. Forward tanks harass the other side and their healer so that your dps can fire freely.
I'm sorry, "Puddle of Doom" that does "insane melee damage"? No clue what you are talking about here. Let me know how much damage the "puddle of doom" does as well.
One of the differences between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that".
It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right.
Sorry but to say alter your build to combat ONE class among many (but lets be honest, a VAST majority of the pvp pop IS DK) is just asinine. The ONLY sorc build (and dont you dare tell me to go melee because I am a mage through and through) is:
streak/deadrice curse/crystal fragment/mages fury/inner light(I use shattering prison sometimes instead of inner light). Could I do AoE? yea I could, but the damage is laughable. So where does that leave a sorc caster? Crushing shock? Reflected, Destructive reach? Reflected. Crystal fragments (we use it) reflected. Pets? HAHAHAHAH! Mines? Here let me walk around those and laugh at how much magicka you just wasted.
So please be just like every other DK and say build around it, or go S&B, or tell us to L2P. You guys will never admit how broken it is lol That one skill reflects everything almost. Ultimates are supposed to feel, you know, Ultimate. Yet the DK can spam batswarm and SoM (the pool that was being discussed) like it is just another skill. (not just dk, but anyone who uses vamp can do it honestly DK are just better at it) all while reflecting one of the sorcs, and meteor.
The broken mechanics of the DK+S&B+VAMP is just so crazy strong (even without vamp)that there is literally NO down side to it. No opening of attack, no weak spot, nothing. Please though, all the DK defending this, keep telling us to L2P. Meanwhile I have accepted my role as cannon fodder while the "forward tank" does all the work.
The only thing you can do is literally wait for them to run out of stamina (should that ever happen). Most the time you die first before it happens. I will however say that fighting a DK is fun for one reason. When they FINALLY die, I tea bag the freaking crap out of them.
EVERYONE has to make their build based on the other classes, no exceptions. Even the DK has to do this. Oh but you don't want to go melee, you refuse to have it on your bar because you want to play a pew pew mage. Guess what, i don't want invade on my bar but I got to have it because you will bolt away if I don't. I don't want to craft detect pots but guess what I have to cause they will stealth away. Don't make excuses, make the changes you need to make just like everyone else has to do for every class skill in the game.
There is no super secret ultimate gen sauce for the DK, we build it just like everyone else. An no it's not through mountains blessing. Anyone can use bats, you got problem with bats, go start a nerf bats thread. This is about reflective scales.
FYI killing a players stamina is the key to winning in this game if you haven't figured that out. That is what you should be doing, not QQing about it because you just want to stand around and mash pew pew to win. PvP in this game is about using your head.Edited by Armitas on December 12, 2014 4:37PMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
Kromus✭✭✭
Nop, you are talking about diving solo into zerg and I realized that in your latest post, so not sure what's the point of this discussion if you are here to defend such state of play. No lone player should be able to fight zerg and live to talk about it after, unless he ran away on time or its emperor facing noobs. I'm talking about normal pvp where similar sized groups would face each other. You are talking about "execute levels of hp to use it efficiently" and I'm talking on getting at least one heal I cast for myself and not for all to go to some random players nearby when I'm at ~5% hp.
If it's a group of bads then it should be possible. That is essentially what every 1vX is. Seen any good 1vX's against No Mercy? Of course not, because they are good. Yeah we are talking about pushing into a group solo because we have to if we want to use our class damagers...because all our class damagers are melee. Yeah if you are standing beside your buddies they might take your heal, so sorry about that. However we are talking about DKs in the middle of the zerg because they have to be there if they want to use class damagers. This thread has nothing to do with your woes as a templar beside the rest of the group.
The current state of the game is that it is being nerfed. Why put up a page of math if it doesn't even matter for discussion. Have you not realized the discussion has changed since the MOD announced the upcoming nerf? Your math also left out quite a bit of important information.Nop, I did math before official info about nerf in 1.6 but it doesn't matter for discussion anyway as we are talking about current state of game and not what could be in 1.6 or later.Nop, I did not left out shield strength increase with nearby player as we are talking about getting hammered by ranged players which means they would be out of Blazing Shield range to take any damage from it. Only thing I forgot to note is usage of base magicka cost for abilities and not actual at v14, since I did not have access to game at the moment to check, but that changes nothing in what I'm trying to explain. Regarding your statement how ranged players would eventually quit hitting you before they would kill themselves with RS, please don't mix theorycraft with what random player might do or not do in real situation. Using same logic, what's stopping players to move away from Blazing Shield? They can move away from its radius and keep shooting at me, while for RS they need to stop shooting at all, because RS don't have radius and complies only to range of attacking ability, right? Btw, Etaniel posted funny video above showing opposite of what you are saying.
I am assuming that if you are going to go zerg diving you will use a gap closer like any reasonable person would which would mean you are in melee range. What Templar in their right mind would literally walk into the zerg spamming blazing shield to cover the ranged until they reached their target. That is a poor decision, and I have no sympathy for you if you play like that.
No we are talking about the FACT that DK has no choice but to enter the fray to use class damagers whereas you don't have to. Let me hear your Temp complaints about pushing the zerg when you actually have to push into the zerg to use class damagers.As I already stated twice, we are talking about melee tank archetype who would be in first line of fight, and also you don't need to charge, you can use Fiery Grip. What you are saying would be strong point in case DK don't have any option in game for ranged attacks while Templar do, but that is not the case as you can also combine class and weapon skills like most people do (including Templar ofc). You last sentence... don't we all need to be alive in order to do any kind of damage, no matter from what skill tree damaging ability comes from?
Fiery grip is broken due to exploiters not to mention blockable, and not workable with CC immunity. Please try out fiery grip and let me know how that turns out. Even if it works they will roll, roll then gone and you can't pull them back.
Yes we all have to be alive to do damage, what is your point?
---
Dude, there is a reasonable limit in 1vX one should expect to experience or see, like 1v3, 1v5, 7, 10 at most, not 1v20 or how big zerg is, which would be clear evidence something is badly wrong with game balance. How bad zerg can be for not to kill you in a mere minute? You can bring down some of them with you, but eventually you have to go down unless you bail out on time or support arrives.
PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game but most rules applies in both cases, so lets transfer what you are saying into PVE surrounding. This is a game where tank is not supposed to tank everything at same time in PVE (like they usually do in other mmo's), but yet you assume its perfectly normal to "tank" everything in PVP? Sure, I as melee templar "tank" can wrack havoc in enemy line pretty much like DK, but I don't expect to last long unless I bail out before all focus fire on me. Same with other melee classes/builds, except DK who can create puddle of doom for insane melee damage and at same time reflect all projectiles without sweat, no matter is it 2, 22 or 222 projectiles flying toward his face.
One of the differences between good and bad players is in good one know or can sense when to "bailout" when it gets too hot in center of fight, to consolidate and charge again or push in other direction. That's how things should be and not to handle single class complete immunity to most range attacks, without any diminishing returns or limitations except cost of ability. And for effectiveness you can check again my, by your opinion, useless math. You mentioned I'm missing some elements in my calculation so feel free to add up, don't just say how is not complete and leave it on that.
Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?
It actually is your responsibility to manage the trash waves as a pve tank, and boss trash waves. If you are not, you are not doing all you can as a tank. Yes it is perfectly normal to have forward tanks in PvP. Forward tanks harass the other side and their healer so that your dps can fire freely.
I'm sorry, "Puddle of Doom" that does "insane melee damage"? No clue what you are talking about here. Let me know how much damage the "puddle of doom" does as well.
One of the differences between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that".
It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right.
Being ignorant and arrogant is not a virtue. As stated multiple times, this discussion is about Reflective Scales, where it stands compared to similar gimmick abilities other classes have and whether it needs to be adjusted in some way or not. This is not a discussion about is it possible to kill DK, or discussion on "personal" level like...
"Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?"
What is the point of that line in this discussion? Some life wisdom like... It only takes 1 shot to deliver a killing blow? No, I don't play in zergs.
Where did I say it's not tank responsibility to manage trash? I said this game don't support "grab everything and hold aggro" approach, so common for tank role in other mmo's. If you do so, you will most likely die fast, unless you are overgearing/overleveling that particular encounter or in very specific situation. This game don't have aggro tables and there is no AOE taunt abilities, which should be clear sign for anyone that tanking mechanic is a bit different than in other mmo's. Yet, you expect to "tank" a zerg in pvp, alone.
"Another difference between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that". - There, I fixed it for you.
Puddle of doom = banner + cinders + talons, or in short all those funky things DK throw around him that can melt players in seconds, who later come here on forum to whine how they died from it and you as DK shoves them off saying "l2p" and "move out of it". Before you make another arrogant question... no, I don't have a problem with it and I mentioned it in first place due to you saying how DKs need most survival because they must charge into middle of enemy zerg... but at same time they have insane dps output when all those abilities are combined together. If you want DKs to have most survival, cool, np, but you can't deal most damage at same time. That's called balance.
"It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right."
If you mean on increased shield strength per enemy nearby, I already replied on that one, but can say again... No, it's not missing as we were talking about ranged attackers and those are not nearby, but out of range for Blazing shield to account them. Anyway, congrats on level of arrogance presented.
1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Being ignorant and arrogant is not a virtue. As stated multiple times, this discussion is about Reflective Scales, where it stands compared to similar gimmick abilities other classes have and whether it needs to be adjusted in some way or not. This is not a discussion about is it possible to kill DK, or discussion on "personal" level like...
Yeah it is a discussion about that too, because if you can kill a DK even with RS then it makes a good case as to it be balanced."Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?"
What is the point of that line in this discussion? Some life wisdom like... It only takes 1 shot to deliver a killing blow? No, I don't play in zergs.
Where did I say it's not tank responsibility to manage trash? I said this game don't support "grab everything and hold aggro" approach, so common for tank role in other mmo's. If you do so, you will most likely die fast, unless you are overgearing/overleveling that particular encounter or in very specific situation. This game don't have aggro tables and there is no AOE taunt abilities, which should be clear sign for anyone that tanking mechanic is a bit different than in other mmo's. Yet, you expect to "tank" a zerg in pvp, alone.
I asked Because you said a DK shouldn't be able to do 1v20. I assumed you were not just making stuff up but actually had an instance in mind.
Yes part of being an effective tank is "grabbing" everything you can. I can do it just fine on level without dying and not much work on the healer. If you are dying to that either you are not built right or your healer is not healing like they should. You don't have AOE taunts to handle trash so you use snares, roots and ST ranged taunts. Are you sure you are actually tanking in this game?"Another difference between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that". - There, I fixed it for you.
Puddle of doom = banner + cinders + talons, or in short all those funky things DK throw around him that can melt players in seconds, who later come here on forum to whine how they died from it and you as DK shoves them off saying "l2p" and "move out of it". Before you make another arrogant question... no, I don't have a problem with it and I mentioned it in first place due to you saying how DKs need most survival because they must charge into middle of enemy zerg... but at same time they have insane dps output when all those abilities are combined together. If you want DKs to have most survival, cool, np, but you can't deal most damage at same time. That's called balance.
Cinder does like 30 damage, talons does pitiful dot damage, and banner does around 200. All of which can be avoided by rolling out. None of that does "INSANE damage" are you kidding me? Roll the heck out if you are dying to that. "Funky things DK throw around him that can melt players in seconds" are you kidding me? I don't even know what game you are playing. You keep using the word "insane dps output" so please tell me what the dps output is."It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right."
If you mean on increased shield strength per enemy nearby, I already replied on that one, but can say again... No, it's not missing as we were talking about ranged attackers and those are not nearby, but out of range for Blazing shield to account them. Anyway, congrats on level of arrogance presented.
Yes and as I mentioned that no one in their right mind will solo charge a zerg without a gap closer. If you are literally walking into the zerg using BS to protect you from the ranged until you reached the target then you are wrong. Really, really wrong, because that is freaking ridiculous. Use some math that would make sense in a world of people that know what they are doing. Don't forget the other calculations I asked you to add to it.
Edited by Armitas on December 12, 2014 5:18PMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
This is the elephant in the room. There's basically only one type of attack that can hard-counter these monkeys and that's Fear. Guess what the monkeys cry about?The broken mechanics of the DK+S&B+VAMP is just so crazy strong (even without vamp)that there is literally NO down side to it. No opening of attack, no weak spot, nothing.
Edited by Lava_Croft on December 12, 2014 5:40PM1 -
Kromus✭✭✭
Being ignorant and arrogant is not a virtue. As stated multiple times, this discussion is about Reflective Scales, where it stands compared to similar gimmick abilities other classes have and whether it needs to be adjusted in some way or not. This is not a discussion about is it possible to kill DK, or discussion on "personal" level like...
Yeah it is a discussion about that too, because if you can kill a DK even with RS then it makes a good case as to it be balanced."Did 1 DK wipe your zerg of 20? Be honest. You do know it only takes 1 person to kill a DK right?"
What is the point of that line in this discussion? Some life wisdom like... It only takes 1 shot to deliver a killing blow? No, I don't play in zergs.
Where did I say it's not tank responsibility to manage trash? I said this game don't support "grab everything and hold aggro" approach, so common for tank role in other mmo's. If you do so, you will most likely die fast, unless you are overgearing/overleveling that particular encounter or in very specific situation. This game don't have aggro tables and there is no AOE taunt abilities, which should be clear sign for anyone that tanking mechanic is a bit different than in other mmo's. Yet, you expect to "tank" a zerg in pvp, alone.
I asked Because you said a DK shouldn't be able to do 1v20. I assumed you were not just making stuff up but actually had an instance in mind.
Yes part of being an effective tank is "grabbing" everything you can. I can do it just fine on level without dying and not much work on the healer. If you are dying to that either you are not built right or your healer is not healing like they should. You don't have AOE taunts to handle trash so you use snares, roots and ST ranged taunts. Are you sure you are actually tanking in this game?"Another difference between good players and bad players is being prepared. As in "I know DK's can reflect so I am going to include a build that can handle that". - There, I fixed it for you.
Puddle of doom = banner + cinders + talons, or in short all those funky things DK throw around him that can melt players in seconds, who later come here on forum to whine how they died from it and you as DK shoves them off saying "l2p" and "move out of it". Before you make another arrogant question... no, I don't have a problem with it and I mentioned it in first place due to you saying how DKs need most survival because they must charge into middle of enemy zerg... but at same time they have insane dps output when all those abilities are combined together. If you want DKs to have most survival, cool, np, but you can't deal most damage at same time. That's called balance.
Cinder does like 30 damage, talons does pitiful dot damage, and banner does around 200. All of which can be avoided by rolling out. None of that does "INSANE damage" are you kidding me? Roll the heck out if you are dying to that. "Funky things DK throw around him that can melt players in seconds" are you kidding me? I don't even know what game you are playing. You keep using the word "insane dps output" so please tell me what the dps output is."It's your math, you add it up right. I told you what you left out, if you want to use it, you make it right."
If you mean on increased shield strength per enemy nearby, I already replied on that one, but can say again... No, it's not missing as we were talking about ranged attackers and those are not nearby, but out of range for Blazing shield to account them. Anyway, congrats on level of arrogance presented.
Yes and as I mentioned that no one in their right mind will solo charge a zerg without a gap closer. If you are literally walking into the zerg using BS to protect you from the ranged until you reached the target then you are wrong. Really, really wrong, because that is freaking ridiculous. Use some math that would make sense in a world of people that know what they are doing. Don't forget the other calculations I asked you to add to it.
As i said already, ignorant and arrogant. You have a problem in understanding context of what is being said in this discussion and replying with first thing that cross your mind without thinking through multiple variables and situation one should take into account if want to discuss about balancing abilities.
I will give you some pointers how shallow statements you make, and conclude this discussion from my side, as I don't see point in wasting my time on it anymore...
* Yeah it is a discussion about that too, because if you can kill a DK even with RS then it makes a good case as to it be balanced. - lol
* I asked Because you said a DK shouldn't be able to do 1v20. - lol, but anyway not only DK, any single player
- Yes part of being an effective tank is "grabbing" everything you can - There is a huge difference between "grabbing everyting" and "grabbing everything you can"
Cinder does like 30 damage, talons does pitiful dot damage, and banner does around 200. - numbers are for one player? cumulative for all players affected? per player? per second? with how much weapon damage, spell damage etc.
Yes and as I mentioned that no one in their right mind will solo charge a zerg without a gap closer. - rofl, give this man a cigar!
Rest of your reply either have nothing to do with what I said in first place or it simple "I'm awesome, you're stupid."
Kromus out.1
