REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

Kromus

AryaWythers wrote: »

So funny that 75% of PvP pop runs with bows...then want to qq about reflective scale

Same can be said in other direction, seeing DK as class was picked by majority of players knowing that it is overall strongest class in 2 out of 3 roles, and now shout "l2p" to anyone who dare to question class balance.

Kromus

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

A templar dont need to use projectiles vs DK

Also in case you dont know Eclipse reflects soul assault not only DK's reflect ultimates right? but in this case you guys have a prob with the DK's cause u dont have anything better to do .I would preffer being able to reflect soul assault that is twice lethal as 4 x shooting stars... L2P
Also in case you dont know No2 blazing shield bugs(exploit?) and reflects all projectiles the first 2-3 sec of cast that does not annoy you cause u didnt even notice it right?

This is not quite true or at least we can say it depends on situation. Unless Eclipse is on DK you don't have much choice in your range class abilities to do damage. Sun fire, javelin and solar flare gets reflected and only left is mediocre damage from Spear shard aoe, or to go melee with Puncturing strikes and use Blazing shield for protection and some damage.

Personally, don't see problem in it as we (templars) still have option to counter RS and/or do some damage in periods when we can't apply Eclipse. That is cool thing, as it is not guaranteed counter since it depends on current DK immunity status whether you can apply it or not, which gives better fights overall.

Eclipse reflecting Soul Assault is neat ability and by my opinion right where it should be in class balance, due to:
- Soul Assault casters are puss..s (except if they are healers)
- you need good timing for it to work
- it's clearly visible on target at any given moment
- it can only reflect one Soul strike as you would hardly have time to cast it on two targets using SS on you
- allow for that priceless "oh, yeah" moment

Don't think what you say for BS reflecting all projectiles for first 2-3 seconds is true in normal conditions. Can you please elaborate a bit how you got to that conclusion?

Asgari

AryaWythers wrote: »

So funny that 75% of PvP pop runs with bows...then want to qq about reflective scale

Agreed.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Palidon wrote: »

I would like to know why the Nightblade Syphion Swallow Soul is reflected. It is not a projectile. ZOS needs to take a serious look at Reflective Scale

It is a projectile. You can clearly see the Funnel Health and Swallow Soul projectiles zoom around the battlefield.

Agreed.

Sanct16

RS does NOT give immunity to ranged skills. It only gives immunity to projectiles. There are still several ways to range a DK. If you rely on those projectiles to kill the DK and don't use anything else, you would still be doomed if they would not use RS. EVERY projectile can be blocked reducing the damage by 85% (I think). So in a 1v1 you still would not be able to kill him. This applies for every other class aswell if they use a bit tanky build.

Galalin

Soulac wrote: »

Other classes got limited resources too, deal with it.
300 Magicka cost is not that much, one heavy attack and the normal regeneration for one cast, gg

Assuming the DK is wielding a stick

Goldie

Sanct16 wrote: »

The point of this thread is that a bowuser should be able to kill everyone just spamming snipe.

WRONG! The point of this thread has NOTHING to do with a player being a bow user.

NordJitsu

Sanct16 wrote: »

RS does NOT give immunity to ranged skills. It only gives immunity to projectiles. There are still several ways to range a DK. If you rely on those projectiles to kill the DK and don't use anything else, you would still be doomed if they would not use RS. EVERY projectile can be blocked reducing the damage by 85% (I think). So in a 1v1 you still would not be able to kill him. This applies for every other class aswell if they use a bit tanky build.

There are some abilities though, like Crushing Shock, that clearly are NOT projectiles and yet they still get reflected. Other examples are Soul Swallow and Mages Fury.

If they changed these, and perhaps more skills, so that they were not affected by RS, it would be more balanced and this change may not be needed.

Asgari

"It's easier to nerf a issue than fix it" - ZOS 2014

Lava_Croft

NordJitsu wrote: »

Other examples are Soul Swallow and Mages Fury.

Funnel Health and Swallow Soul are clearly projectiles. Thanks to ESO being buggy, you can often see them lingering around the battlefield.

Varicite

Etaniel wrote: »

Please remind me, when did people start complaining about scales? After 1.5 right? Oh, isn't that by any chance the patch that made snipe ridiculous? oh yeaaaaah snipe.

People are complaining because dks have a better (much better) survival chance against the idiocy that has become snipe. And i can't blame them. I have to spam my scales every 4 seconds otherwise i get 100 heal debuffed and wrecked in 2 seconds.

The solution to this is to nerf the [snip] snipe !
Before snipe was op, i only casted my scales when i saw a sorc casting crystal shards at me for example. Definitely not every 4 seconds. I actually had some setups where i didn't use scales at all. Now, scales is a must have in any dk's build, just to counter the overwhelming amount of snipers in cyrodil.

Just to be clear though, i don't mind archers killing me in 1 sec when they are Ganking me in open field. And it was possible before 1.5 too, so nerfing snipe is totally possible.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

People have been complaining about Scales since early access.... It's probably been the #1 most complained about ability since the game has launched.

It has absolutely nothing to do w/ Snipe.

Galalin

Varicite wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Please remind me, when did people start complaining about scales? After 1.5 right? Oh, isn't that by any chance the patch that made snipe ridiculous? oh yeaaaaah snipe.

People are complaining because dks have a better (much better) survival chance against the idiocy that has become snipe. And i can't blame them. I have to spam my scales every 4 seconds otherwise i get 100 heal debuffed and wrecked in 2 seconds.

The solution to this is to nerf the [snip] snipe !
Before snipe was op, i only casted my scales when i saw a sorc casting crystal shards at me for example. Definitely not every 4 seconds. I actually had some setups where i didn't use scales at all. Now, scales is a must have in any dk's build, just to counter the overwhelming amount of snipers in cyrodil.

Just to be clear though, i don't mind archers killing me in 1 sec when they are Ganking me in open field. And it was possible before 1.5 too, so nerfing snipe is totally possible.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

People have been complaining about Scales since early access.... It's probably been the #1 most complained about ability since the game has launched.

It has absolutely nothing to do w/ Snipe.

I think vamp wins most complained

NordJitsu

Galalin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Please remind me, when did people start complaining about scales? After 1.5 right? Oh, isn't that by any chance the patch that made snipe ridiculous? oh yeaaaaah snipe.

People are complaining because dks have a better (much better) survival chance against the idiocy that has become snipe. And i can't blame them. I have to spam my scales every 4 seconds otherwise i get 100 heal debuffed and wrecked in 2 seconds.

The solution to this is to nerf the [snip] snipe !
Before snipe was op, i only casted my scales when i saw a sorc casting crystal shards at me for example. Definitely not every 4 seconds. I actually had some setups where i didn't use scales at all. Now, scales is a must have in any dk's build, just to counter the overwhelming amount of snipers in cyrodil.

Just to be clear though, i don't mind archers killing me in 1 sec when they are Ganking me in open field. And it was possible before 1.5 too, so nerfing snipe is totally possible.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

People have been complaining about Scales since early access.... It's probably been the #1 most complained about ability since the game has launched.

It has absolutely nothing to do w/ Snipe.

I think vamp wins most complained

No its definitely DK. I don't think just Reflective Scales though. The class overall.

Galalin

NordJitsu wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Please remind me, when did people start complaining about scales? After 1.5 right? Oh, isn't that by any chance the patch that made snipe ridiculous? oh yeaaaaah snipe.

People are complaining because dks have a better (much better) survival chance against the idiocy that has become snipe. And i can't blame them. I have to spam my scales every 4 seconds otherwise i get 100 heal debuffed and wrecked in 2 seconds.

The solution to this is to nerf the [snip] snipe !
Before snipe was op, i only casted my scales when i saw a sorc casting crystal shards at me for example. Definitely not every 4 seconds. I actually had some setups where i didn't use scales at all. Now, scales is a must have in any dk's build, just to counter the overwhelming amount of snipers in cyrodil.

Just to be clear though, i don't mind archers killing me in 1 sec when they are Ganking me in open field. And it was possible before 1.5 too, so nerfing snipe is totally possible.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

People have been complaining about Scales since early access.... It's probably been the #1 most complained about ability since the game has launched.

It has absolutely nothing to do w/ Snipe.

I think vamp wins most complained

No its definitely DK. I don't think just Reflective Scales though. The class overall.

Was refering to abilities... would have to agree with your statement about the class though. Even though its fairly balanced in my opinion now. DK's have been hit more than a few times with the nerf bat

Sanct16

Goldie wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The point of this thread is that a bowuser should be able to kill everyone just spamming snipe.

WRONG! The point of this thread has NOTHING to do with a player being a bow user.

And the moon is made of cheese...

Kromus

Sanct16 wrote: »

RS does NOT give immunity to ranged skills. It only gives immunity to projectiles. There are still several ways to range a DK. If you rely on those projectiles to kill the DK and don't use anything else, you would still be doomed if they would not use RS. EVERY projectile can be blocked reducing the damage by 85% (I think). So in a 1v1 you still would not be able to kill him. This applies for every other class aswell if they use a bit tanky build.

If this was regarding my comment, you can't apply Eclipse whenever you want on target, and it has nothing to do with RS.

NordJitsu

Galalin wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Please remind me, when did people start complaining about scales? After 1.5 right? Oh, isn't that by any chance the patch that made snipe ridiculous? oh yeaaaaah snipe.

People are complaining because dks have a better (much better) survival chance against the idiocy that has become snipe. And i can't blame them. I have to spam my scales every 4 seconds otherwise i get 100 heal debuffed and wrecked in 2 seconds.

The solution to this is to nerf the [snip] snipe !
Before snipe was op, i only casted my scales when i saw a sorc casting crystal shards at me for example. Definitely not every 4 seconds. I actually had some setups where i didn't use scales at all. Now, scales is a must have in any dk's build, just to counter the overwhelming amount of snipers in cyrodil.

Just to be clear though, i don't mind archers killing me in 1 sec when they are Ganking me in open field. And it was possible before 1.5 too, so nerfing snipe is totally possible.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

People have been complaining about Scales since early access.... It's probably been the #1 most complained about ability since the game has launched.

It has absolutely nothing to do w/ Snipe.

I think vamp wins most complained

No its definitely DK. I don't think just Reflective Scales though. The class overall.

Was refering to abilities... would have to agree with your statement about the class though. Even though its fairly balanced in my opinion now. DK's have been hit more than a few times with the nerf bat

Well I agree that they're the most complained about. I disagree that they've been nerfed significantly or enough. Though really I'd rather see other classes brought up to par.

Specifically Templar and Sorcerer both need significant buffs. I think NBs are in a good spot.

Galalin

NordJitsu wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Please remind me, when did people start complaining about scales? After 1.5 right? Oh, isn't that by any chance the patch that made snipe ridiculous? oh yeaaaaah snipe.

People are complaining because dks have a better (much better) survival chance against the idiocy that has become snipe. And i can't blame them. I have to spam my scales every 4 seconds otherwise i get 100 heal debuffed and wrecked in 2 seconds.

The solution to this is to nerf the [snip] snipe !
Before snipe was op, i only casted my scales when i saw a sorc casting crystal shards at me for example. Definitely not every 4 seconds. I actually had some setups where i didn't use scales at all. Now, scales is a must have in any dk's build, just to counter the overwhelming amount of snipers in cyrodil.

Just to be clear though, i don't mind archers killing me in 1 sec when they are Ganking me in open field. And it was possible before 1.5 too, so nerfing snipe is totally possible.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

People have been complaining about Scales since early access.... It's probably been the #1 most complained about ability since the game has launched.

It has absolutely nothing to do w/ Snipe.

I think vamp wins most complained

No its definitely DK. I don't think just Reflective Scales though. The class overall.

Was refering to abilities... would have to agree with your statement about the class though. Even though its fairly balanced in my opinion now. DK's have been hit more than a few times with the nerf bat

Well I agree that they're the most complained about. I disagree that they've been nerfed significantly or enough. Though really I'd rather see other classes brought up to par.

Specifically Templar and Sorcerer both need significant buffs. I think NBs are in a good spot.

Agree about the buffing rather than nerfing... still my opinion DK's have seen a lot of nerfs though they were justifiable.

Xsorus

No class right now needs significant buffs. Also equipping a 1 handed shield gives sorcs the ability to ignore reflective scales... As for bows, unless you're a dk shoot something else.

Cody

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Other examples are Soul Swallow and Mages Fury.

Funnel Health and Swallow Soul are clearly projectiles. Thanks to ESO being buggy, you can often see them lingering around the battlefield.

swallow soul/funnel health is not a projectile. You are pulling an enemie's life force from their bodies to you. not shooting them with a ranged attack.

Lava_Croft

Cody wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Other examples are Soul Swallow and Mages Fury.

Funnel Health and Swallow Soul are clearly projectiles. Thanks to ESO being buggy, you can often see them lingering around the battlefield.

swallow soul/funnel health is not a projectile. You are pulling an enemie's life force from their bodies to you. not shooting them with a ranged attack.

Both the game and me seem to disagree. (And you ARE shooting them with a ranged attack, that's why you can use it at 36m distance.)

kijima

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Other examples are Soul Swallow and Mages Fury.

Funnel Health and Swallow Soul are clearly projectiles. Thanks to ESO being buggy, you can often see them lingering around the battlefield.

swallow soul/funnel health is not a projectile. You are pulling an enemie's life force from their bodies to you. not shooting them with a ranged attack.

Both the game and me seem to disagree. (And you ARE shooting them with a ranged attack, that's why you can use it at 36m distance.)

I agree with Cody on this one, it's not a projectile and shouldn't be reflected, you are taking something away from the target, not trying to throw something at them.

Your argument of the game and you agree with it, is just stupid. How many broken skills before fixes could you defend with that logic.

Lava_Croft

kijima wrote: »

Your argument of the game and you agree with it, is just stupid. How many broken skills before fixes could you defend with that logic.

How exactly are my 'stupid' arguments any less than yours? I see Funnel/Swallow as a projectile and so does the game. You don't.

I guess I should call your argument stupid now, just to keep the discussion going?

Milf_Hero

I believe the animation for swallow soul/funnel health shoots a little red strip to the target and then two red strips return right? What would you call that first red strip? a.... PROJECTILE? whoda thunk.

Nihil

Although a lot of skills are going to change so every comparison we make right now is taken from a bias perspective, I think the best way to analyze RS would be in comparison to similar effect skills and what they counter (for the argument I am going to use complete immunity skills). Their are 6 skills that I can think of at the moment (one of them being buggy, aka shadow cloak). These skills are, RS, Ball of Lightning, Unstable core, Defensive position, Shadow cloak, and heated blades.

RS, reflects all projectile skills that are directed at the target (currently) for 4 seconds. This includes stamina abilities too. As it is centered on the target players can choose to attack another player, and the skills had a very obvious animation, although this leaves the target to cause major chaos in enemies line. Note: A large quantity of weapon skills also have some of their hardest hitting abilities as projectiles (destruction staff force shock, duel wielding flying blade, Bow snipe) which leaves 2 hander as the best weapon to counter this skill (as rapid strikes leaves you not able to block while casting so isn't as useful in my personal opinion others might disagree).

Defensive position, similar to RS, but only reflects on skill but has a 30 second time period, so can be casted quite be casted quite a bit before hand. Not as noticeable animation as RS, but is also only limited to one reflect so will burn through resources fast if attempting to keep it up. Need Sword and shield to use.

Ball of lightning, Stops magical projectiles that pass through the orb, and lasts for 6 seconds. Does not stop stamina projectiles so has a few more counters then RS in the area of weapons. Can strife the orb to get a shot in, but as it is also an escape move can be harder to counter with melee range moves (gap closer needed), also used to reposition in battle. Obviously does not reflect skills.

Unstable core, ( my knowledge with templars is slim to none so please fill in / correct anything I mess up on). Targets one person, so can not be used to protect a given target, just remove one out of the fight (to a degree). The skill itself can be blocked or stopped by immovable, or can be broken out of. Reflects all magical harmful affects (so aoe's are reflected I believe).

Heated blades, Stops one target from dealing melee damage (not sure if it can be broken out of, never had a chance to test), or gives a miss chance to targets around you. Can not be used to "guard" a target, but used to remove a target from melee combat. Lasts for 4 seconds, Need to be in melee range to use. A lot of hard hitting abilities are considered projectiles, but can be good against specific class abilities. Need duel wielding to use.

Shadow cloak (buggy so taking the info on what it is suppose to do but is easily broken). Stops all non AOE attacks, shouldn't be able to be targeted. Can be used to reposition in battle, and has a few "when exiting cloaked" effects. If hit it is broken (aoe, curse, BUGS), has a skill that counters it (mage light), and a potion. Broken when you make an attack (leaving you with just a boost to your armor and spell resistance)

Of these 3 block skills and 3 reflect skills, 1 of the reflects stops a target ( thus having an imposed limit on how many skills it reflects), and 2 target self (Which one having an imposed limit). These, imo, are the skills that should be compared to determine the strength of one of the other skills in the list.

Suntzu1414

Lava_Croft wrote: »

kijima wrote: »

Your argument of the game and you agree with it, is just stupid. How many broken skills before fixes could you defend with that logic.

How exactly are my 'stupid' arguments any less than yours? I see Funnel/Swallow as a projectile and so does the game. You don't.

I guess I should call your argument stupid now, just to keep the discussion going?

Siphoning shouldn't be considered a projectile.

and, Yes...this discussion.. is beaten to death.
But, yeah. we have 24 pages of discussion on nerfing RS.


Kill Well.
ST

Milf_Hero

Suntzu1414 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

kijima wrote: »

Your argument of the game and you agree with it, is just stupid. How many broken skills before fixes could you defend with that logic.

How exactly are my 'stupid' arguments any less than yours? I see Funnel/Swallow as a projectile and so does the game. You don't.

I guess I should call your argument stupid now, just to keep the discussion going?

Siphoning shouldn't be considered a projectile.

and, Yes...this discussion.. is beaten to death.
But, yeah. we have 24 pages of discussion on nerfing RS.


Kill Well.
ST

it considered a projectile because it shoots a freakin red strip that does x amount of damage. after the damage happen then the siphoning comes into play. It should be reflected because it isn't just a syphon it does magic damage on contact.

Palidon

Lets face it Reflective Scales is OP. Those that defend it use it and that is normal. However at least give Reflective Scales a percentage chance value on what will be reflected. If that is not the case then as an example take away all the percentage chance values for many of the Nightblade Skills and make them all 100% like Reflective Scales currently is. Lets be fair about this.

Milf_Hero

i can at least agree with making other skills better for other classes. haha. but then you would have to reduce the duration of all your night blade skills to 4 seconds if that skill of course is implemented over time.

Kromus

Nihil wrote: »

Unstable core, ( my knowledge with templars is slim to none so please fill in / correct anything I mess up on). Targets one person, so can not be used to protect a given target, just remove one out of the fight (to a degree). The skill itself can be blocked or stopped by immovable, or can be broken out of. Reflects all magical harmful affects (so aoe's are reflected I believe).

Yes, true except it does not reflect aoe, but single target (including channeled) spells. Don't think ability as such is broken in certain moments, but game have problems with hook/handlers or however is right term to say when it needs to trigger your action/ability, and you can't trigger it unless you ESC menu and/or weapon swap first. Happens on regular basis for me with abilities that requires target, like Eclipse/Unstable core, which can be annoying since you are not sure at the moment is it bug or temporal immunity from target that prevents you to apply it. Players are familiar with this bug from doors, wayshrines and other things you can't always trigger.

Nijjion

Palidon wrote: »

Lets face it Reflective Scales is OP. Those that defend it use it and that is normal. However at least give Reflective Scales a percentage chance value on what will be reflected. If that is not the case then as an example take away all the percentage chance values for many of the Nightblade Skills and make them all 100% like Reflective Scales currently is. Lets be fair about this.

As long as the other class OP skills get 'seen' to, I'll be ok with Scales nerf. Every class has that OP ability and if it just hits DKs that's the unfair bit in my point of view at least.