Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I'm just really not seeing the issues with Archers / Bow users that others are having.

It helps to have Reflective Scales, yes, but there needed to be a downside for the glass cannon LA wearers. There has to be some survivability issue related to that build and bow helps enforce that.

I know of people wearing pieces of HA, set up for good block abilities, and using shields that are just walking through multiple snipe attempts. I tried it myself last night. I had three archers hitting me repeatedly at one point with little chance of actually killing me.

None of the LA wearers in the group could get anywhere near the resource tower those archers were in. I stood right in front of it.

It really is time for some balance changes to get people away from the stick waving robe wearer meta.

Please explain to me what a "Glass Cannon" LA wearer is. Do you realize how pathetically *WEAK* magic damage is right now? Do you even realize every good Sorc in the game has lost 25% off the top of their damage over the last 2 patches? This isn't counting the fact that we are completely countered by a single ability that *EVERY* class has access to.

Sorc ability damage is the most preventable, mitigatable and reflectable damage of any class in the game right now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining as I have the skill to counter this and I'm using a shield. You realize that the buff to bows has pretty much made it so that *Everyone* who wants to be successful in cyrodiil that isn't relying on bows and stealth to fire from safety must have a shield (or reflective scales) though? Hardly what I'd call balance.

It's easy for a DK to say this change is fine because you do have a guaranteed fallback option and I don't begrudge you that. But there are many other classes and playstyles that aren't DKs who don't have a fallback option and the absurd range of bows means the guys who aren't hiding behind a shield are all attracting arrows like pincushions.

Sharpened and the various spell resist penetration abilities were, quite literally, allowing the entire Spell Resistance stat to be ignored. Spell resist 2000 and 0 were essentially the same thing prior to the first of the changes. This was not a sustainable state of game balance.

People who devote gearing, skill points, and skill slots towards increasing their passive defenses should have that rewarded by having them actually be meaningful in game.

It's not just Sorcs who lost damage from magicka / spell based abilities, it's everyone, and thank God for that, because TTK is still absurdly low in this game.

And to define a glass cannon build -- it's a build / setup that focuses on killing the opponent over defending itself. Light Armor is one of the more common traits of such a build, discarding physical defense for cheaper magicka costs, higher spell penetration, quicker magicka regen -- etc etc.

It's not as if sorcs can't strap on a set of Heavy Armor, a shield, and then swap to a resto staff to toss Healing Ward on themselves for some damage shielding. And if you do that, you pay the price of lowered offensive abilities -- as you should.

And the moment you start pulling on the robe, there needs to be the chance that you'll have to deal with the consequences of being weaker against physical damage dealing abilities.

Like Lethal Arrow.

I'm not arguing with you about them fixing sharpened. The issue is penetration is still completely borked. I've spent hours testing spell penetration and there is a ton of crap that is still broken. Instead of fixing penetration, they focus on Sharpened and now the whole system is broken in reverse. (I'll be writing up a detailed post with much maths on the general forum shortly explaining the host of issues).

The real issue however is the sorc magicka abilities in general scale very poorly. Basically because of the host of bugs with penetration and poor spell scaling design they are forcing everyone to use Destro staffs. Now Destro staffs passives are still bugged like sharpened and with these abilities, a sharpened staff and apprentice stone you can still completely pierce armor and get bonus damage on top of that just like with Sharpened(don't ask me why that is).

So now you have an ability with the most damage, fires the fastest, has the best scaling and an absurdly longer range than anything else in the game where you can choose your targets. Why hit the DK with a sword and board when there is a sorc or a templar miles away with a staff?

The longest range ability in the game by nature has to either be slow firing, extremely expensive, or extremely difficult to hit with. Bows are none of these now. Therein lies the lack of balance.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I'm just really not seeing the issues with Archers / Bow users that others are having.

It helps to have Reflective Scales, yes, but there needed to be a downside for the glass cannon LA wearers. There has to be some survivability issue related to that build and bow helps enforce that.

I know of people wearing pieces of HA, set up for good block abilities, and using shields that are just walking through multiple snipe attempts. I tried it myself last night. I had three archers hitting me repeatedly at one point with little chance of actually killing me.

None of the LA wearers in the group could get anywhere near the resource tower those archers were in. I stood right in front of it.

It really is time for some balance changes to get people away from the stick waving robe wearer meta.

Please explain to me what a "Glass Cannon" LA wearer is. Do you realize how pathetically *WEAK* magic damage is right now? Do you even realize every good Sorc in the game has lost 25% off the top of their damage over the last 2 patches? This isn't counting the fact that we are completely countered by a single ability that *EVERY* class has access to.

Sorc ability damage is the most preventable, mitigatable and reflectable damage of any class in the game right now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining as I have the skill to counter this and I'm using a shield. You realize that the buff to bows has pretty much made it so that *Everyone* who wants to be successful in cyrodiil that isn't relying on bows and stealth to fire from safety must have a shield (or reflective scales) though? Hardly what I'd call balance.

It's easy for a DK to say this change is fine because you do have a guaranteed fallback option and I don't begrudge you that. But there are many other classes and playstyles that aren't DKs who don't have a fallback option and the absurd range of bows means the guys who aren't hiding behind a shield are all attracting arrows like pincushions.

Sharpened and the various spell resist penetration abilities were, quite literally, allowing the entire Spell Resistance stat to be ignored. Spell resist 2000 and 0 were essentially the same thing prior to the first of the changes. This was not a sustainable state of game balance.

People who devote gearing, skill points, and skill slots towards increasing their passive defenses should have that rewarded by having them actually be meaningful in game.

It's not just Sorcs who lost damage from magicka / spell based abilities, it's everyone, and thank God for that, because TTK is still absurdly low in this game.

And to define a glass cannon build -- it's a build / setup that focuses on killing the opponent over defending itself. Light Armor is one of the more common traits of such a build, discarding physical defense for cheaper magicka costs, higher spell penetration, quicker magicka regen -- etc etc.

It's not as if sorcs can't strap on a set of Heavy Armor, a shield, and then swap to a resto staff to toss Healing Ward on themselves for some damage shielding. And if you do that, you pay the price of lowered offensive abilities -- as you should.

And the moment you start pulling on the robe, there needs to be the chance that you'll have to deal with the consequences of being weaker against physical damage dealing abilities.

Like Lethal Arrow.

I must agree with Agrippa as usual because he speaks the truth. If you run LA you will pay the price for it. Weigh in the pros and cons for your set up and deal with your choices. People need to get over having the best of both worlds.

I also love how people are saying their class was nerfed from using an exploit that everyone was using for increased DPS. Im glad is fixed. Separates the men from the boys.

My only issue with snipe is that there is no minimum range. With you being able to snipe over 50m with the bow in certain cases and having 0 minimum it becomes a little overwhelming with how easy it is to spam at this point.

I tried it on my NB last night and with the 200 stamina cost for it i was able to spam it like it was free candy being given away after Halloween. The devs should just look into a minimum range and then i say who cares.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I'm just really not seeing the issues with Archers / Bow users that others are having.

It helps to have Reflective Scales, yes, but there needed to be a downside for the glass cannon LA wearers. There has to be some survivability issue related to that build and bow helps enforce that.

I know of people wearing pieces of HA, set up for good block abilities, and using shields that are just walking through multiple snipe attempts. I tried it myself last night. I had three archers hitting me repeatedly at one point with little chance of actually killing me.

None of the LA wearers in the group could get anywhere near the resource tower those archers were in. I stood right in front of it.

It really is time for some balance changes to get people away from the stick waving robe wearer meta.

Please explain to me what a "Glass Cannon" LA wearer is. Do you realize how pathetically *WEAK* magic damage is right now? Do you even realize every good Sorc in the game has lost 25% off the top of their damage over the last 2 patches? This isn't counting the fact that we are completely countered by a single ability that *EVERY* class has access to.

Sorc ability damage is the most preventable, mitigatable and reflectable damage of any class in the game right now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining as I have the skill to counter this and I'm using a shield. You realize that the buff to bows has pretty much made it so that *Everyone* who wants to be successful in cyrodiil that isn't relying on bows and stealth to fire from safety must have a shield (or reflective scales) though? Hardly what I'd call balance.

It's easy for a DK to say this change is fine because you do have a guaranteed fallback option and I don't begrudge you that. But there are many other classes and playstyles that aren't DKs who don't have a fallback option and the absurd range of bows means the guys who aren't hiding behind a shield are all attracting arrows like pincushions.

Sharpened and the various spell resist penetration abilities were, quite literally, allowing the entire Spell Resistance stat to be ignored. Spell resist 2000 and 0 were essentially the same thing prior to the first of the changes. This was not a sustainable state of game balance.

People who devote gearing, skill points, and skill slots towards increasing their passive defenses should have that rewarded by having them actually be meaningful in game.

It's not just Sorcs who lost damage from magicka / spell based abilities, it's everyone, and thank God for that, because TTK is still absurdly low in this game.

And to define a glass cannon build -- it's a build / setup that focuses on killing the opponent over defending itself. Light Armor is one of the more common traits of such a build, discarding physical defense for cheaper magicka costs, higher spell penetration, quicker magicka regen -- etc etc.

It's not as if sorcs can't strap on a set of Heavy Armor, a shield, and then swap to a resto staff to toss Healing Ward on themselves for some damage shielding. And if you do that, you pay the price of lowered offensive abilities -- as you should.

And the moment you start pulling on the robe, there needs to be the chance that you'll have to deal with the consequences of being weaker against physical damage dealing abilities.

Like Lethal Arrow.

I'm not arguing with you about them fixing sharpened. The issue is penetration is still completely borked. I've spent hours testing spell penetration and there is a ton of crap that is still broken. Instead of fixing penetration, they focus on Sharpened and now the whole system is broken in reverse. (I'll be writing up a detailed post with much maths on the general forum shortly explaining the host of issues).

The real issue however is the sorc magicka abilities in general scale very poorly. Basically because of the host of bugs with penetration and poor spell scaling design they are forcing everyone to use Destro staffs. Now Destro staffs passives are still bugged like sharpened and with these abilities, a sharpened staff and apprentice stone you can still completely pierce armor and get bonus damage on top of that just like with Sharpened(don't ask me why that is).

So now you have an ability with the most damage, fires the fastest, has the best scaling and an absurdly longer range than anything else in the game where you can choose your targets. Why hit the DK with a sword and board when there is a sorc or a templar miles away with a staff?

Passing on the sharpened discussion then.

Your target selection example is the exact type of drawback that glass cannon and LA builds should be dealing with. If you're in LA, even with shields, getting hit by Bows, 2H, Dual Wield, even 1H/Shield should hurt if the attacker has a moderately competent build. That's the price paid for pulling on the armor with 100 armor rating instead of 200.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

The longest range ability in the game by nature has to either be slow firing, extremely expensive, or extremely difficult to hit with. Bows are none of these now. Therein lies the lack of balance.

ZOS has chosen a different balance method for the 'longest range' and that's the 'easily mitigatable'. Have a high armor rating, use a shield, be a DK with wings, roll dodge when you hear the audio cue, use damage shields to absord the blow, or get friends and hide behind them.

And to, only briefly, address Destro staff -- that entire line needs to be reviewed again. Elemental Wall/Blockade is definitely not working as intended. The skill line as a whole just seems to be too strong and encompasses many of the problems with ESO right now -- zergballing, low TTK, low skill ceiling, etc.

Agrippa and Asgari I feel you are bypassing a point made consistently by Ez.

The point is not simply that bows hurt. That on it's own is fine. The problem is that one glass cannon build (built around spell power, class skills & light armor) at the moment deals both less damage and receives more damage than another glass cannon build (the medium armour archer, whatever class). There's a reason you're starting to see many Sorc archers

The buffs to bows and physical damage came almost at the same time as fixes to spell penetration and the removal of Cycle of Life. I'm not saying that these fixes are bad, in fact these changes were good. I'm simply stating the state of the game afterwards.

Atm Lethal Arrow and Venom Arrow are better damage dealing skills than what you'll find on the Sorcs arsenal. That is even before we take sets into consideration that increase an archer's damage flat out. As Ez said, spell damage does not scale so well as weapon damage.

On top of that you both play DKs. Which is vastly different from playing a Sorc Light Armor. Many many more ways for damage mitigation and heals to allow both tanking and decent DPS available to the DK. I know, I play one. Spamming shields and bolting away is not exactly light armor tanking is it?

Finally, the only supposedly solid method for self-heals (Crit Surge) is to a large extent being negated by another broken mechanic which they haven't bothered to fix yet, Impenetrable.

Columba wrote: »

I get hit by sorcs harder than I do archer. My spell resist is over 2000 too.

By what exactly? The hardest hitting attack of a sorc (Crystal Frags) deals less damage at cap-level (magicka & spell damage) than Snipe at caps (stamina and weapon dmg) before we take into consideration the Poison Status DoT. And I'm not talking about stealth hits either.

The only thing that can potentially hit harder is the execute (Mage's Fury) when it procs. That's about it.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa and Asgari I feel you are bypassing a point made consistently by Ez.

The point is not simply that bows hurt. That on it's own is fine. The problem is that one glass cannon build (built around spell power, class skills & light armor) at the moment deals both less damage and receives more damage than another glass cannon build (the medium armour archer, whatever class). There's a reason you're starting to see many Sorc archers

The buffs to bows and physical damage came almost at the same time as fixes to spell penetration and the removal of Cycle of Life. I'm not saying that these fixes are bad, in fact these changes were good. I'm simply stating the state of the game afterwards.

Atm Lethal Arrow and Venom Arrow are better damage dealing skills than what you'll find on the Sorcs arsenal. That is even before we take sets into consideration that increase an archer's damage flat out. As Ez said, spell damage does not scale so well as weapon damage.

On top of that you both play DKs. Which is vastly different from playing a Sorc Light Armor. Many many more ways for damage mitigation and heals to allow both tanking and decent DPS available to the DK. I know, I play one. Spamming shields and bolting away is not exactly light armor tanking is it?

Finally, the only supposedly solid method for self-heals (Crit Surge) is to a large extent being negated by another broken mechanic which they haven't bothered to fix yet, Impenetrable.

Not to argue semantics, but to argue semantics --

Both Lethal Arrow and Venom arrow are in the sorcerer's arsenal.

Should Templars, NBs, and DKs also be granted some long range ability out of their class skills that's focused on Spell Damage and hits as hard as Crystal Frags or is comparable?

And, frankly, anytime you mention anything wearing/using Light Armor and damage mitigation, it should be to explain the lack of it. I'm all for seeing even more changes to ensure that LA tanking can't happen (Make DK Razor Armor give you a 50% armor buff instead of a flat value, this makes it so that LA wearers can't cap out, but HA users get the same as the old value).

Let me start by saying that PvP is my only real bow experience. And by reminding people that ZOS stated in more than one video (Quake con and ESO Live) that they fully intend Snipe to become the bow-wielder's "bread and butter".

If you cannot survive two snipes, you're already dead... and that doesn't matter WHAT weapon ANYONE uses to open on you from stealth.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

you cant see them because they are hitting you from stealth, NOT because they are spamming cloak.

now, the 1.1 sec cast time is a bit much, I agree.

Actually they are. The routine is: initial attack is snipe then they quickly use shadow cloak and continue these attacks until they cant shadow cloak anymore. The counter is to have mage light on both loadouts and also have a way to close a 35 meter distance in less than 2 seconds.

Night Blades arent warriors or fighters. They are gankers or assassins. This idea is cool until you have 15 bow snipers hitting you all at once. I dont worry about it because im a reflecting DK but my friend that a girl just flat out dies. Snipe shouldnt be so cheap but im definately reaping the rewards by using Snipe myself followed by crit rush.

Sorry chemicals, but I think you've never actually played a Nightlbade using Snipe. They're hitting you twice from stealth. Not re-stealthing. Eh, maybe SOME are re-stealthing for a third shot but probably never more than that.

It's MUCH... MUCH... MUUUUUUUUUUCH more likely that you're getting hit by more than one NB together. You might be surprised at how often stealthed NBs with bows out gravitate toward one another and just silently start hitting the same target(s).

It's actually quite a thing of beauty when you're out there, you do it, and you both say "lol" and go your separate ways.

Here's a few reasons why your assumptions on this tactic are incorrect:
- First off, I've stood in some of our biggest zergs on NA AD Thorn and never seen 15 snipers standing together firing on one target. 80% of the time, it's two at the most hitting together. Another 15% of the time, you might get three together in a zerg keep situation. Then, I'd put it at 5% of the time that you have anything more than that hitting the same ability from stealth at the same time on the same target... ever. But, snipe or no snipe - shouldn't ANY ability that's tripled up on you from-stealth kill MOST players? I think it should definitely kill all but the (a)most prepared, (b)lucky, and (c)grouped players with a pocket healer

For Stam builds:

1. Any NB that's really trying to stay invisible is going to cast at LEAST two snipes before bothering to cloak.
2. Cloak is WAY too expensive to cast more than once when opening on someone. Even then, I'd call a stam nightblade foolish who uses it early as that magicka is precious and ALWAYS needed at the end of a kill / fight.

For Magicka builds (which would be pretty foolish to use a stam-based opener)

1. Most run dark cloak for the cleanse. Those that do run the crit-morph, see #1 above.

Stamina build NBs cannot get off more than 3-4 cloaks without a potion (or having invested massive amounts of points & enchantments into magicka... but what STAM nightblade would do that???).
Even if a Magicka NB decides to open with a Lethal Arrow (there are so many better ways to open), they absolutely wouldn't continue with it over their chosen Strife morph.

I have two nightblades and every possible build available (soon as my addons are all back ) depending on which NB I'm playing.

I found that putting on Construct Heavy Armor with Radiant Mage Light basically makes me immune to Bow Attacks while blocking, Though Soul purge or whatever will still rip me a new one since it goes through block.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Is anyone surprised by the fact that after making Magicka builds way too strong compared to Stamina builds the situation is slowly turning into the opposite?

When a handful of bow users can wipe a raid with their AE skills, get back to me.

Hence the 'slowly' and there's more to Stamina than just bows.

Baby Faced Bananas (hard-core PvE raiding guild in EU with records on AA and Hel Ra) completed sanctum ophidia again today.

Highest DPS on the Serpent, an archer, 1.3k DPS using Snipe as main damage dealing.

Soulac wrote: »

This

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

I get hit by sorcs harder than I do archer. My spell resist is over 2000 too.

By what exactly? The hardest hitting attack of a sorc (Crystal Frags) deals less damage at cap-level (magicka & spell damage) than Snipe at caps (stamina and weapon dmg) before we take into consideration the Poison Status DoT. And I'm not talking about stealth hits either.

The only thing that can potentially hit harder is the execute (Mage's Fury) when it procs. That's about it.

Just ignore him. He's just trying to troll.