Maintenance for the week of December 22:
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
Zenimax- Just add a dislike button.
-
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭censorship isn't necessarily a bad thing in this case. It's a private forum, not the government cracking down on civilians. The mods have been very proactive at halting toxic content or negative arguments, etc but have been very light handed with punishments.
They are preventing problems before they start, as opposed to dishing out warnings and bans afterwards.
Who gets to decide what is offensive? If I am being direct and blunt does that make it mean? I can make the distinction between a public and private forum and I never claimed this was a first amendment issue. What I suggested was that they might be a bit too rigid in what they consider offensive.:trollin:2 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »censorship isn't necessarily a bad thing in this case. It's a private forum, not the government cracking down on civilians. The mods have been very proactive at halting toxic content or negative arguments, etc but have been very light handed with punishments.
They are preventing problems before they start, as opposed to dishing out warnings and bans afterwards.
Who gets to decide what is offensive? If I am being direct and blunt does that make it mean? I can make the distinction between a public and private forum and I never claimed this was a first amendment issue. What I suggested was that they might be a bit too rigid in what they consider offensive.
the mods get to decide what is offensive. This is not a democracy, so regardless of how viable you might feel your version is, ultimately it is the mods that make that decision.
If they were throwing out warnings left and right I would agree that they are too rigid, but they tend to be more focused on just removing potentially troublesome posts and preventing problems from starting, which I think is a good idea.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.3 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.
Yes, it does constitute an opinion. No, you do not need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
This is all just people talking to each other. There is no "need." This "need" you keep bringing up over and over again is just you, telling other people how to manage their preferences and communication. Nobody gives a big wet fart about your ideas on who "deserves" what. Communication isn't a conflict between people wherein they pit their "intelligence" or "willpower" against one another. It's just a way to pass the time.
So chillax already. Maybe take a couple good breaths and stop insisting people talk to each other like how you want them to talk to each other.
This is a forum, not a street corner.
If you're going to disagree with a point someone makes, then the generally accepted rules of civil discourse say that you have to back up your disagreement with something other than, "We all have opinions, dude."
I don't care if you feel like your voice is being silenced because you're being forced to make an argument. This is a forum for debate. That's why forums exist: discussion and debate. If you don't want to take part in that, don't. But don't demand a button that lets you troll people while you refuse to take part in the discourse.
You can't have it both ways. You cannot force someone to participate in a debate and then get your feelings hurt when they say something you don't like. If they will not include the dislike option then they should relax their censorship.:trollin:5 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.
Yes, it does constitute an opinion. No, you do not need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
This is all just people talking to each other. There is no "need." This "need" you keep bringing up over and over again is just you, telling other people how to manage their preferences and communication. Nobody gives a big wet fart about your ideas on who "deserves" what. Communication isn't a conflict between people wherein they pit their "intelligence" or "willpower" against one another. It's just a way to pass the time.
So chillax already. Maybe take a couple good breaths and stop insisting people talk to each other like how you want them to talk to each other.
This is a forum, not a street corner.
If you're going to disagree with a point someone makes, then the generally accepted rules of civil discourse say that you have to back up your disagreement with something other than, "We all have opinions, dude."
I don't care if you feel like your voice is being silenced because you're being forced to make an argument. This is a forum for debate. That's why forums exist: discussion and debate. If you don't want to take part in that, don't. But don't demand a button that lets you troll people while you refuse to take part in the discourse.
You can't have it both ways. You cannot force someone to participate in a debate and then get your feelings hurt when they say something you don't like. If they will not include the dislike option then they should relax their censorship.
Who said anything about getting my feelings hurt? Or forcing people to participate in a debate?
The censorship in this forum doesn't stop you from engaging in any kind of spirited debate. It just prevents you from trolling and flaming instead of discussing the topic at hand.----
Murray?4 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭LOL- The "generally accepted rules of civil discourse? " ROFLMFAO...
I disagree...
This reply, plus the mockery and petulant contrariness seen so often in these forums, is adequate proof that the absence of a "disagree" button is a wise and prudent measure.
Edited by Srugzal on August 14, 2014 2:59PM6 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PolskiBunny_ESO wrote: »I think this thread does a better job at reminding Zenimax why the disagree button can't be reinstated or it will get abused than successfully making an argument on how it would be productive and magical.
Actually it proves exactly why there should be one. This has only devolved into a pointless debate, exactly what a dislike button would serve to discourage. By including it you won't 8 pages and counting of people quoting people and trying prove why they are right or wrong. How much simpler would it be to simply hit dislike/disagree or whatever you want to call it without getting into a heated argument about why the other person is wrong?:trollin:3 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »To clarify, the disagree/dislike buttons did not result in a degradation of points on a user's profile, nor did a certain accumulation of these flags auto-hide a post. That being said, these flags also did not result in points being added to a profile; they were neutral in this sense.
This is not accurate the complete story. Although there was never an auto-hide feature, the [other] negative feedback "buttons" did indeed subtract points. That is the reason they were so destructive, because troll gangs formed to punish unpopular opinions, resulting in some posters having negative point totals. This was changed at some point before the buttons themselves were eliminated, but at least in the June-October 2013 timeframe they did, indeed, subtract points.
EDIT: attempting to correct my faulty memory, as noted in the response from @ZOS_AlanG belowEdited by Srugzal on August 14, 2014 3:32PM0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »PolskiBunny_ESO wrote: »I think this thread does a better job at reminding Zenimax why the disagree button can't be reinstated or it will get abused than successfully making an argument on how it would be productive and magical.
Actually it proves exactly why there should be one. This has only devolved into a pointless debate, exactly what a dislike button would serve to discourage. By including it you won't 8 pages and counting of people quoting people and trying prove why they are right or wrong. How much simpler would it be to simply hit dislike/disagree or whatever you want to call it without getting into a heated argument about why the other person is wrong?
What, exactly, do you think the point of posting on a forum is?
If you post an idea, you are inherently asking others to debate the merits of the idea. If you don't want that to happen, then write the idea in your journal.----
Murray?4 -
ZOS_AlanGadmin
There were community-driven moderation flags like Spam, Abuse, and Troll that subtracted points, but Disagree is not one of them. While we may adjust the available reaction flags in the future, there are no plans for bringing back the CDM flags - preferring instead the report system currently used.This is not accurate. Although there was never an auto-hide feature, the negative feedback "buttons" did indeed subtract points. That is the reason they were so destructive, because troll gangs formed to punish unpopular opinions, resulting in some posters having negative point totals. This was changed at some point before the buttons themselves were eliminated, but at least in the June-October 2013 timeframe they did, indeed, subtract points.
Forum Rules | Promoting Constructive Discussion | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Help Site
I’ve moved to a new position and I am no longer active on this forum. For assistance, please check the resources linked above3 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭
At some point it's just painful to watch. It just becomes a bad Joke. There is overwhelming support here for the disagree option.
I for one am encouraged by the popularity of this thread and believe it may be a good start in seeing a disagree button added. Roughly 2.5k views and tons of support.
I don't think your robbing anyone of anything other than a good time. We'll see what happens despite the ad nauseum QQ.
So, I see that you believe that:
1. You can make a point by ridiculing the person you're talking to, and
2. You must be right because so many people agree with you
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), neither of these "arguments" hold any water at all, so your obvious confidence is, alas, misplaced.
I recommend that you have a look at this list of fallacies. Perhaps it will be the start of a journey of discovery for you. Have fun!
Edited by Srugzal on August 14, 2014 3:11PM3 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »If they were throwing out warnings left and right I would agree that they are too rigid, but they tend to be more focused on just removing potentially troublesome posts and preventing problems from starting, which I think is a good idea.
They are also very responsive to complaints of ad hominem abuse. If you feel someone has stepped over the line, the report button is a good way of calling this to a moderator's attention. It's still their decision, but they do respect our feedback.
1 -
BillyMailman✭✭✭(snip)... there are no plans for bringing back the CDM flags - preferring instead the report system currently used.
In that case, can we get some better support/feedback around the Flag option? I've flagged things a few times, but there's no indication anywhere as to what it really should/shouldn't be used for, and no feedback after I've flagged as to whether or not I actually should have flagged those posts. It's kind of discouraging not having any idea if I'm even helping, or just generating noise for the people handling the flags.1 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭
There were community-driven moderation flags like Spam, Abuse, and Troll that subtracted points, but Disagree is not one of them. While we may adjust the available reaction flags in the future, there are no plans for bringing back the CDM flags - preferring instead the report system currently used.This is not accurate. Although there was never an auto-hide feature, the negative feedback "buttons" did indeed subtract points. That is the reason they were so destructive, because troll gangs formed to punish unpopular opinions, resulting in some posters having negative point totals. This was changed at some point before the buttons themselves were eliminated, but at least in the June-October 2013 timeframe they did, indeed, subtract points.
...and those flags were very heavily abused, to be sure. And yes, I was lumping them all together incorrectly, my mistake.
However I think that it's important to point out that these buttons, on the whole, were not neutral at all (with the exception of the "disagree" button, as you pointed out), contrary to the impression left by the original post.
The net result of these abused buttons (Spam, Abuse, Troll) was to punish dissent and discourage dialog. Simple beginner questions were marked "Troll." I'm very glad that there is no intention of bringing those bad old days back.2 -
Thechemicals✭✭✭✭✭A dislike button will just single certain people on this forum out, certain people that wont be named will get 1k dislike achievement and let me tell you.....often times, the ones everyone in a community rallies against are the most troubled irl. I dont want to see the "unlikables" further abused by the masses through a dislike. Its done enough with words already.Vr14 Templar since release- dual resto
Vr14 Dk bow/2h
Brayan Blackthunder
Goddick
Daggerfall Covenant1 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »AlexDougherty wrote: »too many people that can't take criticism so we all have to wear rose colored glasses and pretend every one is special.
No, this is wrong.
Most of us can take critism, try it criticise me.
But what we can't take it people ticking a disagree button and not saying why they disagree. If you disagree say why. A disagree button does not facilitate this.
Why should you always have to explain why you disagree with something? Sometimes a bad idea is obvious to everyone but the person who came up with it.
Yes, but if you don't tell them they won't know, it doesn't have to be a treatise, just a sentence will do.
If you don't say what you disagree with, all that person gets is 50 disagree/dislikes, which really furthers the discussion. (Hint sarcasm here)Edited by AlexDougherty on August 14, 2014 4:46PMPeople believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule4 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭Thechemicals wrote: »often times, the ones everyone in a community rallies against are the most troubled irl.
This conclusion nearly takes my breath away. Is it not possible to refrain from patronizing those with unpopular views and elevating the mob to some kind of infallibility? Surely we can do better than that.Edited by Srugzal on August 14, 2014 4:54PM3 -
PolskiBunny_ESO✭✭✭I like that an argument for the dislike/disagree is "you won't have right pages of discussion on the topic."
Having more discussion is one reason to keep out the buttons.
And if someone is going to be offensive when they disagree, they'll still write an insulting, borderline-report worthy message regardless if they get their button click fix in.
I know it would be convenient for some people to be able to easily express their opinion with the anonymous disagree button, but it did cause issues. Not with me personally but I did see posts that couldn't conceivably be disagreed with get that.
Can't you just hit agree on the people you agree with? If you want to hit disagree on party B, I'm sure you're already hitting agree on party A. It's not like you're barred from anonymously voicing your opinion with the buttons if you look at it that way.
And if we had those buttons, discussions might have less posts, but you would see some griefing at some point (how do you control that?) and you might miss some other opinions/viewpoints.1 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭
At some point it's just painful to watch. It just becomes a bad Joke. There is overwhelming support here for the disagree option.
I for one am encouraged by the popularity of this thread and believe it may be a good start in seeing a disagree button added. Roughly 2.5k views and tons of support.
I don't think your robbing anyone of anything other than a good time. We'll see what happens despite the ad nauseum QQ.
So, I see that you believe that:
1. You can make a point by ridiculing the person you're talking to, and
2. You must be right because so many people agree with you
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), neither of these "arguments" hold any water at all, so your obvious confidence is, alas, misplaced.
I recommend that you have a look at this list of fallacies. Perhaps it will be the start of a journey of discovery for you. Have fun!
Oh I don't know. I think Mockery has it's merits, especially when logic and reason cease to be part of the discussion lol.1 -
ZOS_AlanGadminHopefully today's addition of an ignore feature on the forums will reduce abuse of the reaction flags.Forum Rules | Promoting Constructive Discussion | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Help Site
I’ve moved to a new position and I am no longer active on this forum. For assistance, please check the resources linked above4 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
ZOS. They own and run this forum, which means they get to swing the offensive smashing hammer of DOOM.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »Who gets to decide what is offensive?
;-)
2 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »Things are getting a bit heated in this thread, and we'd like to remind everyone of our Community Code of Conduct so that we can keep this discussion open.
@ZOS_AmeliaR FYI, your link leads to a page not found error.Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.1 -
Elf_Boy✭✭✭If, as is being suggested, the dislike button would be for 'unpopular' or 'disliked' opinions, then that very suggestion is proof enough the feature should not be used.
Who are you (or me) to decide what it popular? Why would being popular make something right or wrong?
It was once popular to throw the Christians to the lions. We wont discuss some of the things that were popular in parts of the world 1938-1944 (ish).
I am, and will be consistently, against a dislike vote because it is a 'highschool' kind of behavior.
Grown, mature people can agree to not agree and can accept anthers views as valid, for them, without turning it into some sort of right/wrong, the cool-kids-believe kind of fertilizer.
Too many times in science, culture, and just about every facet of our live the real, true, answer (or in science the better answer) has started off as the unpopular and ridiculed belief of a genius or forward thinker.
EG: Woman's suffrage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage
Minority rights
The church (the popular/powerful majority) decided that Galileo was wrong starting aprox 1610 and got around to apologizing in 1992.
Plate tectonics, first quantum theory and later string theory and just about every other science that allows us to even play the game and post in these forums has been unpopular and thought to be anything from wicked to insanity to stupidity.
The list could go on for a very, very, very big Wall-O-Text.
If the OP or anyone else disagrees, I look for ward to your well thought out and topical responses.
Unless of course, for the OP it was just about being able to have the power trip of making the whole world see he didn't like it.** Asus Crosshair VI Hero, Ryzen 1800x, 64GB DDR4 @ 3000, GTX 1080 ti, 4K Samsung 3d Display m.2 Sata 3 Boot Drive, m.2 x4 nvme Game Drive **2 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭If, as is being suggested, the dislike button would be for 'unpopular' or 'disliked' opinions, then that very suggestion is proof enough the feature should not be used.
Who are you (or me) to decide what it popular? Why would being popular make something right or wrong?
It was once popular to throw the Christians to the lions. We wont discuss some of the things that were popular in parts of the world 1938-1944 (ish).
I am, and will be consistently, against a dislike vote because it is a 'highschool' kind of behavior.
Grown, mature people can agree to not agree and can accept anthers views as valid, for them, without turning it into some sort of right/wrong, the cool-kids-believe kind of fertilizer.
Too many times in science, culture, and just about every facet of our live the real, true, answer (or in science the better answer) has started off as the unpopular and ridiculed belief of a genius or forward thinker.
EG: Woman's suffrage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage
Minority rights
The church (the popular/powerful majority) decided that Galileo was wrong starting aprox 1610 and got around to apologizing in 1992.
Plate tectonics, first quantum theory and later string theory and just about every other science that allows us to even play the game and post in these forums has been unpopular and thought to be anything from wicked to insanity to stupidity.
The list could go on for a very, very, very big Wall-O-Text.
If the OP or anyone else disagrees, I look for ward to your well thought out and topical responses.
Unless of course, for the OP it was just about being able to have the power trip of making the whole world see he didn't like it.
not to nitpick but there are no actual accounts of Christians being fed to lions. This was most likely told by Christians to other Christians because it vilified the Romans and because Christians really have a thing for martyrs.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.4 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
@Darlgon
@ZOS_AmeliaR FYI, your link leads to a page not found error.ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »Things are getting a bit heated in this thread, and we'd like to remind everyone of our Community Code of Conduct so that we can keep this discussion open.
That's because she linked two threads together and mangled the url in the process.
This should work:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/60843
Edited by SirAndy on August 14, 2014 9:50PM1 -
Humanistic✭✭✭✭nicholaspingasb16_ESO wrote: »the LOL button has become, on most posts, an unofficial dislike button. Adding a dislike button would prevent confusion as to which posts people find legitimately funny, and which ones people think are downright ridiculous. It would also turn every post into a poll, letting you gauge the popularity of people's ideas that are posted here.
The button was removed because people who spend time on the forums when they could actually be making money with a job - decided to stalk other players via their forum posts and click "Dislike" to every single one of them.
Yes, there are actually people who couldn't let it go. I think that's probably one of the biggest reasons it was removed during the beta.2 -
Elf_Boy✭✭✭I recommend that you have a look at this list of fallacies. Perhaps it will be the start of a journey of discovery for you. Have fun!
Nice list!
I see the poor straw man get beat up here a whole lot. Poor thing must have stuffing scattered across the world.** Asus Crosshair VI Hero, Ryzen 1800x, 64GB DDR4 @ 3000, GTX 1080 ti, 4K Samsung 3d Display m.2 Sata 3 Boot Drive, m.2 x4 nvme Game Drive **2 -
ZOS_AmeliaR✭✭✭✭✭
@Darlgon
@ZOS_AmeliaR FYI, your link leads to a page not found error.ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »Things are getting a bit heated in this thread, and we'd like to remind everyone of our Community Code of Conduct so that we can keep this discussion open.
That's because she linked two threads together and mangled the url in the process.
This should work:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/60843
Thanks for the heads up on that. I went ahead and edited my original post and the URL works now (ah, the difference a lack of "http://" makes). 0 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭
If the OP or anyone else disagrees, I look for ward to your well thought out and topical responses.
Unless of course, for the OP it was just about being able to have the power trip of making the whole world see he didn't like it.
I'm just going to start posting this when I don't like what someone else has to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRaoHi_xcWk
Is that acceptable? I promise to never abuse or overuse it.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.1
This discussion has been closed.