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Zenimax- Just add a dislike button.
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nerevarine1138 wrote: »Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.
Yes, it does constitute an opinion. No, you do not need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
This is all just people talking to each other. There is no "need." This "need" you keep bringing up over and over again is just you, telling other people how to manage their preferences and communication. Nobody gives a big wet fart about your ideas on who "deserves" what. Communication isn't a conflict between people wherein they pit their "intelligence" or "willpower" against one another. It's just a way to pass the time.
So chillax already. Maybe take a couple good breaths and stop insisting people talk to each other like how you want them to talk to each other. -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
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Then why disagree at all, if you've no valid point (or counterpoint) to make? Just watch the debate and offer no input at all, if said input holds zero value.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »Not every communication has to be a debate. If you're into debate, bully for you. Not everyone wants to fight, and they shouldn't be obligated to waste words to satisfy your thirst for argument.
Incorrect. Agreement requires no explanation, whereas disagreement does. It's Communications 101, friend.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You're painting agreement as good, and disagreement as bad, and therefore disagreement as something that needs to be justified. In reality, agreement and disagreement are equal, they are just preferences, and do not require explanation or justification.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!" -
GrimGryphon wrote: »williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »
Also, that's a total cop out. Most other avenues of forum communication are able to adultly deal with the concept of a down-tick. Disqus and Facebook, two of the most widely used forum architectures, both have down-ticks, and somehow people manage to use them without devolving into the dystopian wasteland of unhappiness that you predict.
How Upvote/Downvote Sites like Reddit Breed Irrational Herd Behavior
SO WHAT?
People are people. If they're acting irrationally, then they are acting irrationally. If they are acting as a herd, then they're acting as a herd. So be it. Sorry, but this is the Big Boy world, in which people are not obligated to act, or communicate with perfect optimality all, or even some of the time.
Sorry kid, you don't always get what you want. In The Princess Bride, when Inigo Montoya and Wesley are dueling (to the death, presumably), Inigo, surprised by Wesley's prowess in sword-fighting, says "Who are you?" Wesley responds with "No one of consequence." When Inigo presses the matter, saying "I must know," Wesley ends the conversation with "Get used to disappointment."
Get used to disappointment. The girl you asked out doesn't always explain why she said no. She doesn't have to, and you can't bully her into it, no matter how much windy wordage you throw at her or how many journal articles you cite. -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.
Yes, it does constitute an opinion. No, you do not need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
This is all just people talking to each other. There is no "need." This "need" you keep bringing up over and over again is just you, telling other people how to manage their preferences and communication. Nobody gives a big wet fart about your ideas on who "deserves" what. Communication isn't a conflict between people wherein they pit their "intelligence" or "willpower" against one another. It's just a way to pass the time.
So chillax already. Maybe take a couple good breaths and stop insisting people talk to each other like how you want them to talk to each other.
This is a forum, not a street corner.
If you're going to disagree with a point someone makes, then the generally accepted rules of civil discourse say that you have to back up your disagreement with something other than, "We all have opinions, dude."
I don't care if you feel like your voice is being silenced because you're being forced to make an argument. This is a forum for debate. That's why forums exist: discussion and debate. If you don't want to take part in that, don't. But don't demand a button that lets you troll people while you refuse to take part in the discourse.----
Murray? -
Then why disagree at all, if you've no valid point (or counterpoint) to make? Just watch the debate and offer no input at all, if said input holds zero value.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »Not every communication has to be a debate. If you're into debate, bully for you. Not everyone wants to fight, and they shouldn't be obligated to waste words to satisfy your thirst for argument.
You don't get to assign value. If I want to disagree with you, that's my business. Your assessment of value is of zero value.
Incorrect. Agreement requires no explanation, whereas disagreement does. It's Communications 101, friend.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You're painting agreement as good, and disagreement as bad, and therefore disagreement as something that needs to be justified. In reality, agreement and disagreement are equal, they are just preferences, and do not require explanation or justification.
That is not an academic criteria of communication, that is pulled completely out of your buttocks. Neither agreement nor disagreement "require" any explanation, because, as you've failed to understand, over, and over, and over, AND OVER again, nobody here owes you anything. -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »
Then why disagree at all, if you've no valid point (or counterpoint) to make? Just watch the debate and offer no input at all, if said input holds zero value.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »Not every communication has to be a debate. If you're into debate, bully for you. Not everyone wants to fight, and they shouldn't be obligated to waste words to satisfy your thirst for argument.
You don't get to assign value. If I want to disagree with you, that's my business. Your assessment of value is of zero value.
Incorrect. Agreement requires no explanation, whereas disagreement does. It's Communications 101, friend.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You're painting agreement as good, and disagreement as bad, and therefore disagreement as something that needs to be justified. In reality, agreement and disagreement are equal, they are just preferences, and do not require explanation or justification.
That is not an academic criteria of communication, that is pulled completely out of your buttocks. Neither agreement nor disagreement "require" any explanation, because, as you've failed to understand, over, and over, and over, AND OVER again, nobody here owes you anything.
Sure. It's your business. Except you've decided to voice your disagreement in a public forum, which means that it's now our business. And you owe anyone reading your post a decent argument backing up your position. If you refuse to provide one, then your post is not of value. Doesn't matter if you don't think that holds any weight. No one with half a brain places value on people who can't back up an opinion with some kind of rational argument.----
Murray? -
nerevarine1138 wrote: »williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.
Yes, it does constitute an opinion. No, you do not need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
This is all just people talking to each other. There is no "need." This "need" you keep bringing up over and over again is just you, telling other people how to manage their preferences and communication. Nobody gives a big wet fart about your ideas on who "deserves" what. Communication isn't a conflict between people wherein they pit their "intelligence" or "willpower" against one another. It's just a way to pass the time.
So chillax already. Maybe take a couple good breaths and stop insisting people talk to each other like how you want them to talk to each other.
This is a forum, not a street corner.
If you're going to disagree with a point someone makes, then the generally accepted rules of civil discourse say that you have to back up your disagreement with something other than, "We all have opinions, dude."
I don't care if you feel like your voice is being silenced because you're being forced to make an argument. This is a forum for debate. That's why forums exist: discussion and debate. If you don't want to take part in that, don't. But don't demand a button that lets you troll people while you refuse to take part in the discourse.
A forum is simply an idea, an idea of a place in which people are able to communicate with each other. Notice that says able, not obligated.
You can say, as often as you like, that there are hidden "generally accepted rules of civil discourse," but they are imaginary. They are simply your preferences. Your insistence that this has any applicability beyond your own head is of zero consequence. You do not get to tell other people how to communicate with each other. You are not a rules-keeper. You don't own this forum. You're not a moderator. You, buddy, are Jack.
You don't get to say that this forum is for debate. That's only your preference. Other people have different preferences, and there's nothing you can do about it. Other people are just trying to talk. People, people who aren't you, have the ability to communicate here as they see fit.Edited by williamburr2001b14_ESO on August 14, 2014 1:00AM -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
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Okay, I invite you to try something. Get into a conversation with someone. Once they make a point, simply state, "I disagree," adding nothing. Then observe how the person with whom you're conversing responds.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »That is not an academic criteria of communication, that is pulled completely out of your buttocks. Neither agreement nor disagreement "require" any explanation, because, as you've failed to understand, over, and over, and over, AND OVER again, nobody here owes you anything.
Try it out.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!" -
OrcLadySoul Shriven
Okay, I invite you to try something. Get into a conversation with someone. Once they make a point, simply state, "I disagree," adding nothing. Then observe how the person with whom you're conversing responds.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »That is not an academic criteria of communication, that is pulled completely out of your buttocks. Neither agreement nor disagreement "require" any explanation, because, as you've failed to understand, over, and over, and over, AND OVER again, nobody here owes you anything.
Try it out.
he won't do that. People only do that on the internet. Never in real life. -
nerevarine1138 wrote: »Sure. It's your business. Except you've decided to voice your disagreement in a public forum, which means that it's now our business. And you owe anyone reading your post a decent argument backing up your position.
No, I don't. Why is this so very hard for you to understand?
You're sitting at some kind of screen and input. I'm sitting at some kind of screen and input. We both have equal power here, which is limited to pasting words on a screen. You can't make me do anything, no matter how hard you whine and insist. Your power is limited to suggestion, and that's all.
I don't owe you a thing. Not a jot, and there's nothing in the world you can do about it. Appeal to as many mythical etiquettes as you want. Cite. Beg. Cajole. Plead. Threaten. None of it means anything, because your ability to coerce ends at my ability to resist your coercion.
It's just you, having a tantrum, insisting over and over that you should get your way. And here's me, just simply saying nope. -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Sure. It's your business. Except you've decided to voice your disagreement in a public forum, which means that it's now our business. And you owe anyone reading your post a decent argument backing up your position.
No, I don't. Why is this so very hard for you to understand?
You're sitting at some kind of screen and input. I'm sitting at some kind of screen and input. We both have equal power here, which is limited to pasting words on a screen. You can't make me do anything, no matter how hard you whine and insist. Your power is limited to suggestion, and that's all.
I don't owe you a thing. Not a jot, and there's nothing in the world you can do about it. Appeal to as many mythical etiquettes as you want. Cite. Beg. Cajole. Plead. Threaten. None of it means anything, because your ability to coerce ends at my ability to resist your coercion.
It's just you, having a tantrum, insisting over and over that you should get your way. And here's me, just simply saying nope.
You're right. I can't make you do anything. I can, however, use a forum system that doesn't use a "disagree button," and encourage the wider community to be halfway intelligent and demand some form of discussion beyond "yes" and "no." So by using this forum, I can actually rob you of your power to simply click a button and claim that it constitutes an argument. You don't get to do that here. So sorry.
This isn't about your rights (this is a private message board), and it isn't about what I can or can't force you to do. It's about how we want discourse on this board to be. And guess what? For all the tantrums you've been throwing, you still insist on making a point when you disagree. Why? I'd wager it's because you'd like to be taken somewhat seriously.Edited by nerevarine1138 on August 14, 2014 1:25AM----
Murray? -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Oh yes, they do!williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You don't get to say that this forum is for debate.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
The Sidekick Order:
The Naked Nords | The Cannon Fodder of Tamriel | The Mercenaries without Skills | The League of formidable Crafters
The Psijic Order - 0.016% | Elder Moot | Lone Wolf Help | Great House Hlaalu -
RedMiniStapler✭✭✭williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »Sorry kid, you don't always get what you want.
I think this answers OP. -
Oh yes, they do!williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You don't get to say that this forum is for debate.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
"An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages."
Absolutely nothing in that wiki entry says what an internet forum is for, only what it is. That's exactly correct, because a forum is for whatever people use it for. Some of these people insist that it should only be used to argue endlessly with each other over trivial nonsense. Those people are not good people. -
Soothy✭✭✭
Oh yes, they do!williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You don't get to say that this forum is for debate.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
Perhaps a poor example as that wiki entry first and foremost defines an Internet forum as an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages.
No mention of debate
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º> -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Simply stating, "I disagree," does not constitute an opinion. If you disagree, then you need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, since it's been going on this entire thread. If someone disagrees with your post and doesn't have the intelligence or willpower to explain why, they don't deserve to be heard. This is a forum, not a ballot box.
Yes, it does constitute an opinion. No, you do not need to explain yourself. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
This is all just people talking to each other. There is no "need." This "need" you keep bringing up over and over again is just you, telling other people how to manage their preferences and communication. Nobody gives a big wet fart about your ideas on who "deserves" what. Communication isn't a conflict between people wherein they pit their "intelligence" or "willpower" against one another. It's just a way to pass the time.
So chillax already. Maybe take a couple good breaths and stop insisting people talk to each other like how you want them to talk to each other.
This is a forum, not a street corner.
If you're going to disagree with a point someone makes, then the generally accepted rules of civil discourse say that you have to back up your disagreement with something other than, "We all have opinions, dude."
I don't care if you feel like your voice is being silenced because you're being forced to make an argument. This is a forum for debate. That's why forums exist: discussion and debate. If you don't want to take part in that, don't. But don't demand a button that lets you troll people while you refuse to take part in the discourse.
LOL- The "generally accepted rules of civil discourse? " ROFLMFAO...
I disagree... -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Seems to me you nailed it then ...williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »Some of these people insist that it should only be used to argue endlessly with each other over trivial nonsense.
The Sidekick Order:
The Naked Nords | The Cannon Fodder of Tamriel | The Mercenaries without Skills | The League of formidable Crafters
The Psijic Order - 0.016% | Elder Moot | Lone Wolf Help | Great House Hlaalu -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »[And at least two of you are using the LOL button right here, right now, to disagree.
Nope.
I'm laughing at you.
Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!" -
PolskiBunny_ESO✭✭✭I think this thread does a better job at reminding Zenimax why the disagree button can't be reinstated or it will get abused than successfully making an argument on how it would be productive and magical. -
Soothy✭✭✭PolskiBunny_ESO wrote: »I think this thread does a better job at reminding Zenimax why the disagree button can't be reinstated or it will get abused than successfully making an argument on how it would be productive and magical.
It would probably be better than 7 pages of argument though. Maybe
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º> -
Soothy✭✭✭Nothing is stopping any of you from writing 'disagree' as a one word post, but we'll know who you are when you write it. If you want to anonymously discredit someone, go to another forum.
You could argue that knowing someone's name on here isn't really knowing them
Well assuming you don't use an obscure 'handle' for all of your Internet accounts that pretty much makes you stick out like a sore thumb. Right @SFBryan18 ? ¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º> -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nothing is stopping any of you from writing 'disagree' as a one word post, but we'll know who you are when you write it. If you want to anonymously discredit someone, go to another forum.
You could argue that knowing someone's name on here isn't really knowing them Well assuming you don't use an obscure 'handle' for all of your Internet accounts that pretty much makes you stick out like a sore thumb. Right @SFBryan18 ?
Not on a personal level. We'll know who the poster is so we can identify if they are commonly being disruptive or harassing other members. If some newb disagrees but fails to explain why, most people wouldn't care. Or if the most active hater on the forum disagrees, most people will know this person is a joke. What you say on a forum will determine how seriously people take you if they recognize your name, which will also carry weight when you disagree. I see anonymous disagreeing as a way for them to try to get around this. They want to discredit other members, and make it look legit.Edited by SFBryan18 on August 14, 2014 7:31AM -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »Sure. It's your business. Except you've decided to voice your disagreement in a public forum, which means that it's now our business. And you owe anyone reading your post a decent argument backing up your position.
No, I don't. Why is this so very hard for you to understand?
You're sitting at some kind of screen and input. I'm sitting at some kind of screen and input. We both have equal power here, which is limited to pasting words on a screen. You can't make me do anything, no matter how hard you whine and insist. Your power is limited to suggestion, and that's all.
I don't owe you a thing. Not a jot, and there's nothing in the world you can do about it. Appeal to as many mythical etiquettes as you want. Cite. Beg. Cajole. Plead. Threaten. None of it means anything, because your ability to coerce ends at my ability to resist your coercion.
It's just you, having a tantrum, insisting over and over that you should get your way. And here's me, just simply saying nope.
You're right. I can't make you do anything. I can, however, use a forum system that doesn't use a "disagree button," and encourage the wider community to be halfway intelligent and demand some form of discussion beyond "yes" and "no." So by using this forum, I can actually rob you of your power to simply click a button and claim that it constitutes an argument. You don't get to do that here. So sorry.
This isn't about your rights (this is a private message board), and it isn't about what I can or can't force you to do. It's about how we want discourse on this board to be. And guess what? For all the tantrums you've been throwing, you still insist on making a point when you disagree. Why? I'd wager it's because you'd like to be taken somewhat seriously.
At some point it's just painful to watch. It just becomes a bad Joke. There is overwhelming support here for the disagree option.
I for one am encouraged by the popularity of this thread and believe it may be a good start in seeing a disagree button added. Roughly 2.5k views and tons of support.
I don't think your robbing anyone of anything other than a good time. We'll see what happens despite the ad nauseum QQ. -
KitLightning✭✭✭✭
"I'd rather be insane in a sane world, than sane in an insane world!" ~MeWarning - This is a spoiler and looking at it for too long may cause irrecoverable eyesight issues.
◔̯◔
MechWarrior: Living Legends – Total conversion modification for Crysis Wars.
kitlightning.deviantart -
seaef✭✭✭✭✭
Okay, I invite you to try something. Get into a conversation with someone. Once they make a point, simply state, "I disagree," adding nothing. Then observe how the person with whom you're conversing responds.williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »That is not an academic criteria of communication, that is pulled completely out of your buttocks. Neither agreement nor disagreement "require" any explanation, because, as you've failed to understand, over, and over, and over, AND OVER again, nobody here owes you anything.
Try it out.
But then we would know who disagreed and that's precisely what some of these people are trying to avoid.
"The Illuminati are very achievement focused. It's like Xbox - only everything is hardcore."
- Kirsten Geary -
ZOS_AmeliaR✭✭✭✭✭Things are getting a bit heated in this thread, and we'd like to remind everyone of our Community Code of Conduct so that we can keep this discussion open.
We'd also like to address some of the feedback provided in this thread. The disagree button, as well as several other reaction flags, indeed existed during beta. In fact, beta for the game was our opportunity to beta test our forums, looking specifically at what did and didn't work for our community.
To clarify, the disagree/dislike buttons did not result in a degradation of points on a user's profile, nor did a certain accumulation of these flags auto-hide a post. That being said, these flags also did not result in points being added to a profile; they were neutral in this sense.
Ultimately, we removed the negative reaction flags because they were being abused and used to grief members of the community. We also felt that negative reaction flags were not conducive to the goals we have for our forums, the primary of which is to provide a safe, welcoming, fun atmosphere in which players can discuss the game. We realize (and expect) that not everyone will agree with one another, but we also expect that when disagreements occur, the participants discuss their opinions, ideally in a civil and constructive way.
Healthy discussion of a topic, controversial or not, is also important to the development of the game because it allows our developers to see not only what aspects of the game our players agree or disagree with, but also the reasons why.
It's worth pointing out that in addition to the other visual and feature adjustments we are continuing to make to our forums, we are also considering tweaks to the reaction flags, which may end up changing in the future.
We hope this helps provide a bit more insight into the decisions we've made regarding our forums and specifically our reaction flags. As always, we welcome feedback, but as stated before, we expect that such feedback be provided in a constructive and civil way.
EDIT: Fixed hyperlink.Edited by ZOS_AmeliaR on August 14, 2014 11:39PM -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »If people are too lazy to formulate an argument, then I'll gladly think that they found something funny in my post. Let them be lazy, and their vote can stand as a testament to their inability to put forward any kind of coherent argument in favor of their position.
I'm pretty sure your LOL's fall into the disagree category.
If you're referring to how I use my LOL votes (which you have no way of actually knowing), I only use them to indicate that I find a post genuinely funny. If I don't agree with your point and consider it worth debating, I'll respond in a post.
No I meant the LOL's that you receive. I honestly don't care what you find funny. It's very clear from every post I have ever read of yours that you simply enjoy arguing. You do it solely for the sake of it. You get into these long winded diatribes that really don't offer anything constructive to the dialog. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's why it would be a lot easier for me to simply dislike your pointless arguments without the potential to offend you.
:trollin:
This discussion has been closed.