Maverick827 wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

What maverick did not realise is that I used a circular argument, where he actually countered his own argument to argue my statements, which is what I was trying to do; to get him to state that the ultimate is absolutely useless for tanking anyway. Which is more or less what he stated.

Lol.

You "tricked" me into saying no such thing.

Really?

Maverick827 wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ ,

Can we please get a confirmation that the developers know of this imbalance, and the hole left after this nerf to the Storm Atranoch? I need to know if I'm wasting my time by not leveling a Dragonknight, Templar, or Nightblade instead.

There is no hole, there is no imbalance. The taunt of the atronach was not a good or effective tanking ultimate anyway. Are you just trolling now?

There is a clear imbalance. All classes except Sorcerers have ultimates that are useful for DPS, tanking, and healing. The Storm Atranoch taunt was exceptionally helpful for tanking.

Please post constructively and refrain from name-calling or leave the thread.

No, the taunt of the atronach enabled tanking sorcerers for 25 seconds to effectively switch to a dps role, which is absurdly OP.

This is not how it was used. You can't really DPS in tank gear. The Storm Atranoch was the weakest ultimate for tanking as far as the other classes are concerned, but at least it was something.

And lets not forget:

Maverick827 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ ,

The Atranoch does not last the full duration against most veteran bosses, and a large majority of bosses are reliant on positioning and movement, so I find your claims to be dubious at best.

It stands to reason if this was viable that it would be the preferred method of running dungeons, and it would be known all over these and other forums. It is not.

So as I said, in your own words you have stated that the atronach is not that effective of a tanking ultimate anyway. So what is all the fuss about?

It was not powerful enough to solo tank dungeons. But that does not mean it was okay to just take it away, leaving Sorcorers with nothing.

You know what, this is would be great if it was true. However it is possible to solo veteran dungeon bosses as a sorcerer with and without the atronach. But, since when were we ever MEANT to be able to solo tank the veteran dungeon bosses?

Prove it.

Edit: Rank 2 bosses don't count. They have like 30k HP and no mechanics, anyone can solo them.

If you are on the NA server, I can show you the veteran dungeon bosses I can solo.

I'd rather not have to deal with you in game as well as on the forums. I don't doubt that there are some cheesy, mechanics-based bosses you (and every other class) can solo, but I doubt that you can accomplish anything of real merit. Record a video of yourself soloing them if you wish to prove yourself. I will not take time out of my day for you.

That is all immaterial to the overall point of this thread. I regret even engaging you on that front after seeing how you used it to divert the topic.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ ,

I was promised months ago that we would be getting better communication from you on these forums. When that promise was not fulfilled, I asked you when we would be seeing these "changes" in the way you communicate with us. That question, perhaps ironically, went unanswered as well.

This thread has 4.5k views and over 200 comments. Aside from these last few pages, which have been nothing but inexplicable antagonism from a single person, there have been many people in this thread expressing their dissatisfaction over this change. Can we please get a confirmation that the developers know of this grievance and the hole left in the Sorcorer class? There have been many posts in this thread describing the problem, but I can sum them up for you again if you wish.

Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ ,

Now that we're back from the weekend, can we please get a response on this topic? Are the developers aware of the imbalance this has caused?

Koshchei wrote: »

I don't agree that this has caused any imbalance whatsoever.

If soloing:

You should open with the atronach if you're planning on dropping it (probably should anyway in order to maximise uptime). It will easily hold threat on mobs that you aren't actively attacking. Note: You can easily build ultimate by spamming fast regen on yourself and your minion(s) with your healy stick.

If in a group:

Your atronach can be used safely whenever and won't a) die to the boss because it stole threat; b) screw the tank over by pushing the boss into taunt immunity.

Please read the thread before commenting, or at least the first post.

i wish the atronach zap also snared for like 70% or more, its just too easy to simply run away from it in pvp, its a joke. Just have to wait it out for 18-25 sec

Maverick827 wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Yeah I wondered why they made this change. I don't use SA any more, but it was a life saver in PvE. Would be interested to hear the reasoning behind this change.

The reason is that some people (mainly trials players) want the storm atronach to be a dps, not a tank.

This change allows the storm atronach to avoid aggro more easily, so that it can stay alive longer to do more damage.

Why are those people more important?

Let's put it this way -- ZOS intentionally designed a mechanism in which you get a spam message notifying you of trial completion times, so that you are kept well apprised of the glory of trial players. Therefore, they are important because ZOS thinks they are important.

Hopefuy they can learn from every other MMO in history* and not pander to the 1% before it's too late.

*Except for EVE. That game bafflingly still exists.

Perhaps the problem isn't with Trial players, but with the Metric nature of Trials as it is now. For a game that is, in many ways, about actively avoiding the bad, there's an awful that is too easily overcome via straight metrics.

It's not just trials, either. There's various examples in Veteran Dungeons where avoiding bad on the ground is actually worse than standing in it and spamming DPS and healing.

Not back to the way it was at all. The pet abilities are terrible and that still doesn't give Sorcorere a useful tanking ultimate.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Not back to the way it was at all. The pet abilities are terrible and that still doesn't give Sorcorere a useful tanking ultimate.

What about Negate Magic?

Does not work on bosses.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

The

Maverick827 wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Not back to the way it was at all. The pet abilities are terrible and that still doesn't give Sorcorere a useful tanking ultimate.

What about Negate Magic?

Does not work on bosses.

You mean it doesn't fully work on bosses. You can still dispel magical effects, get the Blood Magic passive proc every sec and get extra spell resistance for your team and all the eventual adds inside of the AoE are stunned for the duration of the ultimate.

There isn't really anything to dispel on bosses in this game. Everyone is wearing Light Armor so Spell Resistance isn't really helpful.

I haven't seen Negate heal every second with Blood Magic. The only thing I can find on the topic is another post by you, so that's not really a confirmation. I'll have to test it when I get home. If that's the case, though, then a 5% heal every second for 9 seconds would indeed be useful for a tank.

Maverick827 wrote: »

ThoradinBloodfire wrote: »

My gripe is essentially the issue of stam vs magic users and resource use. I guess its not fair to take out on a storm antraroch thread. Please answer me one question. Are you at least a heavy armor wearing tank? I would have no issue really if this were the case. I think I came into the conversation thinking it was cloth wearing tank sorcerers. My mistake if so.

I am a light armor Sorc tank. I use two armor buffs to compenate for the lack of heavy armor.

I hope one day for heavy armor to at least be as good as light armor for tanking because I think it looks better.

It shouldn't matter whether you wear light or heavy if it works for you. Sorcerers should be able to tank just like any other class and use whatever tactics work. Sorcerers should not get nerfed but instead be seen as a benchmark that the other classes should be brought to.

My only say in this is, if you need distractions to tank, then you're not a good tank. I do agree to those who say SA should actively chasing down any target who chases you down though, and they aggro mobs that way, the same way players aggro'd mobs without taunts, by dealing major damages.

Using more logic, if we see NPC and monsters as having any brain at all, some of them can think of chasing a summoner instead of the summoned pets. It's just like how i always chased down necromancer even though they summoned adds, because i know the necromancer is the key, kill them and their pets goes back to the ground.

Lastly, sorry no offense, but to me you sounded like someone who don't want to sacrifice some DPS capabilities for tanking without distractions. You using light armor is the cue to that. I know full well that light armor main perks are bonus for magic DPS. Tanking using light armor means that you have means to tank while dealing heavy DPS, even if it's available through weapon swap.

AtriasNaradan wrote: »

My only say in this is, if you need distractions to tank, then you're not a good tank.

Why? How is it different than a spell that absorbs damage? It's a spell that causes the boss to stop reducing the tank's HP for a period of time.

Using more logic, if we see NPC and monsters as having any brain at all, some of them can think of chasing a summoner instead of the summoned pets. It's just like how i always chased down necromancer even though they summoned adds, because i know the necromancer is the key, kill them and their pets goes back to the ground.

So then we should remove all taunts, and enemies should immediately swarm healers? Challenging PvE would become impossible. We have to sacrifice logic for gameplay all the time.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Maverick827 wrote: »

AtriasNaradan wrote: »

My only say in this is, if you need distractions to tank, then you're not a good tank.

Why? How is it different than a spell that absorbs damage? It's a spell that causes the boss to stop reducing the tank's HP for a period of time.

The difference is, it's a distraction, meaning the caster can safely move away. When the distraction goes down, there're time frame between the enemies catching up to the caster if they're melee. Also to top it off, the distraction attacks, add more AoE skills on the place and start shooting from range while moving away from hot spot...that's difference of DPS dealt and sruvivability by much.

If you still think it's the same, there are lots of cheap stamina/magicka damage absorbs out there to replace your SA. Not as bad situation as it turns out then, just rewriting some strategies

Using more logic, if we see NPC and monsters as having any brain at all, some of them can think of chasing a summoner instead of the summoned pets. It's just like how i always chased down necromancer even though they summoned adds, because i know the necromancer is the key, kill them and their pets goes back to the ground.

So then we should remove all taunts, and enemies should immediately swarm healers? Challenging PvE would become impossible. We have to sacrifice logic for gameplay all the time.

Those mobs chases us the caster, bashing us making us felt like a true tank we are. Tank taunt skills makes our body taking damages for our group members safety while they heal or DPS. In return for that taunt and hardy built, we don't deal much DPS as a tank.

Lastly, sorry no offense, but to me you sounded like someone who don't want to sacrifice some DPS capabilities for tanking without distractions. You using light armor is the cue to that. I know full well that light armor main perks are bonus for magic DPS. Tanking using light armor means that you have means to tank while dealing heavy DPS, even if it's available through weapon swap.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Please try rewording this or something.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Nightreaver wrote: »

My only say in this is, if you need distractions to tank, then you're not a good tank

Yes, a DPS Sorcerer (Most Sorcerers) do not make really good tanks which is exactly why it was so nice to have an ultimate that provided the means to keep a distance between us and our objective.

Then that's not a tank at all, but a DPS. Just exactly my point there. Truth is, there are a lot of DPS options for sorceress strong enough to kill and survive without having to use distraction. The only difference it will make with distraction is that the number of time the sorceress gets hit.

Hence what i say, if you want high DPS, go DPS. If you want to tank, use more tanky spec, instead of saying you're a tank sorceress while it's really your pets that tanks. Don't call yourself a tank, if you can't lose any source of distractions.

Anyway, for those who thinks sorceress as the hardest to level up as, get real. I play all, and the hardest starter that killed a lot on low level is actually DK

When did this become a discussion about the difficulty of leveling low level characters? And if you think any low level class is difficult to level then I think it is you that needs to "get real".

bla bla bla...

Yes, encounters can be completed without using an Atronach with Taunt. But then the same can be said of any ability including Atronach without Taunt. But if we got rid of all abilities that weren't considered essential then what would we have left? I mean anytime an ability is considered essential then every other class jumps on it demanding it be nerfed.

I do read the first page, and i happen to read some comments (or maybe one?) that say sorceress as the weakest of all class and it's the hardest to level, even though they admit when leveled it's one of the strongest. I was just replying to that :P

Btw, they're not removing the taunt part of Atronach without any reason at all. Of course, just remove all taunt, but at what reason? to top it off, those reasons with atronach taunt removal is coming from players who actually play sorceress as well, not from those who are not sorceress...though obviously, there're those who wants taunt as well there.

Nightreaver wrote: »

Then that's not a tank at all, but a DPS.

??? /boggle
The point I was trying to make was that when soloing AS A DPS SORCERER, I don't do well tanking so would much rather avoid it when possible. Hence using an ultimate that helps in that respect.

Ok, i was just as confused when you replied to my initial comment, which obviously for those who say now they can't tank as a sorceress, meaning that my initial comment was for sorceress self-proclaimed tank who say using distraction as tanking.

I specifically said " if you need distraction to tank, then you're not a good tank"...isn't that clear enough to imply the target of my initial comment? So, why are you even replying to my comment for tank sorceress when you're just a DPS sorceress??

Just exactly my point there. Truth is, there are a lot of DPS options for sorceress strong enough to kill and survive without having to use distraction.

Please give me a list of what abilities you use. I'm quite certain there is at least one that I can find a strong enough option to have no need for it. Your point is, well, pointless. Of course there are options. What makes your options any more important than someone else's?

My options are not any more important, just saying for everyone to be more flexible. Some people did say now it's pointless and a waste for them to raise sorceress, so i say they're wrong. There are plenty options, SA isn't the only one, what makes options that use SA any more important than those who didn't?

The only difference it will make with distraction is that the number of time the sorceress gets hit.

FINALLY, something that makes sense. So at least you can understand that with the "distraction" I (AS A DPS SORCERER) would be getting hit less which is the whole point.

Again, why you protest my initial comment that's targeted toward tank sorceress, by using your DPS sorceress point of view, in the first place?

Hence what i say, if you want high DPS, go DPS. If you want to tank, use more tanky spec, instead of saying you're a tank sorceress while it's really your pets that tanks. Don't call yourself a tank, if you can't lose any source of distractions.

Just to be clear, I have never said or implied I am a Tank, I am a DPS Sorcerer. The purpose (for me) of an Atronach with Taunt is not so I can tank but rather so I never have to.

Again the same question...why protest my intial comment for tank sorceress?

bla bla bla...

So let me repeat what you have no answer for and are trying to avoid.
..... still not a single argument for replacing the AOE Atronach morph with one that includes Taunt. Or even a reason for the AOE morph to even exist.

Ok, if that one sentence was also targeted to me, which i thought it wasn't (hence i put bla bla bla to save some wall)...my answer is, don't ask me about that, ask those tank sorceress who need distractions so much. I for one never use SA for distraction anyway, just for faster mobs kill with the ultimate pet DPS.


.....................

Btw, i think you might confused me with other people, since you did mixed quote my initial comments with some of other person (or people) comments. If you are, then next time don't mix quotes, as it might confused yourself as well. If not, then most of my replies above sum it all up.